₦airaland Forum

@image123

And i did not say that "the bible says that God resurrected people just to kill them again". I was trying to draw something out from what John saw in his revelation to make him give the term "Second death".

@Image123

Now i dont know frosbel and if he is not a christian-it is his cup of tea. And personally, im not looking for an award in this thread. I dont typically like the religious section because its more of attacking people and pastors using bible passages rather than people learning from the bible.
Im not one of u religious folks. Im anti-religious. Christianity is more of RELATIONSHIP than religion. U are in an affair and any relationship that does not enjoy COMMUNICATION between the two (where they question themselves on things they are bothered about) will be off. In a true love relationship, u do things because u recognize u are a stake holder in the affair AND NOT BECAUSE U WILL BE DUMPED-IT IS VERY GENIUNE.

What got me attracted to this thread is (which u should confirm from yr STUDY bible) is frosbel exposed something that many preachers supposedly know but would not want to preach about because of how weak christians may justify backsliding. The true meaning of eternal torment and the lake of fire. He did not just take the term as it was but looked for what Jesus or Isaiah or John actually said when teaching about the term.

In the original versions (greece) of yr bible every portion u listed from Revelation chapters 14 and 20 and others (as a matter of fact every place where "smoke will rise forever and not be quenched" is used or "be tormented day and night forever and ever"), it uses the phrase "as in Gehenna" or simply"Gehenna". This was a place (made popular in greece empire)where things were burnt up and there where people whowere paid to ensure that things dumped there where burnt to bits by reheating the place so there was no time the place was not in flames and smoking. NOTHING SURVIVED GEHENNA.

In the parable of lazarus and the rich man, Jesus used the term "Hades" or "Hell" a place known for a terrible smell and fire. It was not really a place of destruction but a place of disgust and torment (it did not really exist physically so people coined it into a place bad people go in death).

Now anyplace u see God "reigning forever" or "worship Him forever and ever" etc...that is where it was used as it was. That was the source of hope and impression that life with all challenges was temporary. That there was going to be a time of permanent enjoyment with yr creator who on His own lives forever and people with Him would also live forever.

Now most known bibles carefully write the texts of the lake of fire (or hell fire) leaving its comparison to Gehenna out of it-mostly based on personal reasons of the authors. And that is where the confusion comes today. The hard hidden truth versus what "they told us". Its people that like to drive people to a place of fear before preaching the gospel that end up bringing more confusion.

People should stop emphasising on hell.

This is just sad. The painful reality of a hard "unknown" truth versus "what they have always taught us".
Please when studying yr bible-especially in "teaching passages" use a REFERENCE bible and as much as possible, look for the interpretation of given words or phrases from the Greek and Hebrew translation. U will be shocked to find out that some of yr "popular" scriptures are not what they are thought to mean.

What is happening here is just funny. After thirty questions which were mostly taken from research, u guys are just attacking the OP with verses that mostly agree to what the OP said IF INTERPRETED. Una dey even attack una selves now.
The Holy spirit has all the ability to interprete scripture but He can only do that to an independent mind. Many people are totally sold to the way their given churches have interpreted the bible.

@Image123
U wont be able to stand it for long here when name calling starts.
Stop refering to those answering u objectively as "gang" (in yr expression-"frosbel and his gang" )...

Its not about what makes sense. ITS ABOUT WHAT YR BIBLE SAYS.

What really is yr issue? Why repeating issues? Even citing Rev 14vs 11 is very annoying! Its the same term and expression used for the then destruction of Sodom (Jude 7) "eternal fire", "eternal torment" etc and SODOM IS NOT BURNING TODAY! (WHICH THE OP LISTED!) When u read a verse in yr bible-research on what the verse really means before coming here and re-listing bible verses.

Instead of u asking what a term or verse means, u throw it up again, against the explanation of the term. Pathetic.

truthislight: the case of samuel is a deceit from satan and his Demons.

That is why Yahweh commanded that those witches that satan use to deceive people should be sent out of Israel.

Saul did not see samuel with his eyes but depended on what the witch have to tell him and that is how and where satan play his tricks.

While samuel was alive he refuse to see Saul till he died.

God told him that he has rejected Saul and as such he samuel cannot go to Saul or passed any message to Saul.

Yahweh was no longer talking or having dealing with Saul.

Is it possible tha when Saul died he decided to disobey God? No.

Will God decide to start dealing with Saul after samuel has died and state using samuel at death? No.

Will Yahweh pass through a spirit medium that he has had chased and killed in Israel to pass a message to a rejected Saul? No.

Will a spirit medium be able to consult Yahweh? No.

Will Yahweh talk to the rejected Saul through a spirit medium? No.

So, from the fore going, is it true that the character that the medium described/brought forth was the dead samuel?
Judge for yourself.

Satan is behind the immortality of the soul doctrine and he and is Demons uses spirit medium to also spread it.

The dead are silent. Psalm 115:17.
Peace

True.

Bidam: After physical death, do individual continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness or not? Pls reply with relevant scriptures.

Apart from very rare cases (like in 1st samuel 28 where a witch helped King Saul raise Prophet samuel) Hebrews 9 vs 27 says after death comes judgement. Not immediate judgement-but the one of the last day (if they were christians they would rise in the rapture of the church though)

So to the person who died, it would be as though he slept off and woke up almost immediately again (like a deep sleep)

If he was a christian, he wakes up immediately to events of the rapture, his heavenly reward and a place of rulership (Rev 20 vs 4).

If an unbeliever, he wakes up to the events of the white throne judgement (Rev 20 vs5,12).

They will happen in a moment of an eye blink-that is the moment of death and the resurrection into judgements EVEN THOUGH THE TIME THE PERSON DIED AND THE TIME OF RAPTURE AND JUDGEMENT DAY ARE THOUSANDS OF YEARS APART.

So in the period "while dead", the person is unaware of anything. He is no where. His consciousness (which would now be immortal) comes alive during either of the resurrections

Image123: This is the fun we should be questioning. Why wake/resurrect all the sinners from Adam and then kill them again. Does that make any sense? This is not hollywood/nollywood

Whether it "makes sense" or not does not count here. John saw people that died come back to life...now apologies to john's level of education-he did not see flesh and blood-he saw supposed immortal souls. After they had their judgment, they were packaged into a lake of fire where he saw them perish again. The term "second death" should not make sense to anybody. Whats d essence? Why should God make it look like hollywood (like u say)? But thats what he saw and he gave that modest description.

frosbel: You have not answered ONE question out of the 30 presented in the original article.

What is wrong with you people, reminds me of the ostrich burying his head , pretending not to see or hear the evidence.

Let me repeat some of these questions here :



Oya help us answer these few questions.

waiting..................

Sir frosbel abeg no vex. Im not sure he was following the thread from d begining....take am easy O.

TroGunn: Good question.

Jesus was talking of Gehenna.

Here's another translation - "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." (Young's).

Part of the confusion about Hell is caused by some translation issues. In most translations, three words are translated as Hell -
1) sheol (Hebrew - pit, place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
2) hades (Greek - from word meaning "the unseen", place of the dead). Meaning = grave.
3) Gehenna ( derived from actual location outside Jerusalem - Valley of the Son Hinnom). Place used by idol worshippers for human sacrifices. But was converted to disposing rubbish and unwanted dead likely to prevent it being used by idol worshippers - 2Ki 23:10: "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech" (English Standard Verseion). Meaning = final destruction of the wicked .
Also check Jeremiah 7:32-33 to show it's not for physical eternal torment - "Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away".

The use of Gehenna is figurative to signify final destruction of the unrepentant wicked.

I wished translators stayed consistent and rendered sheol/hades as "hell" or "grave" or just "sheol"/"hades" and keep Gehenna as "Gehenna", then the biblical meaning would have been quite easy to figure out - some did, some allowed their perceived (mis)understanding to come thru. It means more work to know the facts - truth-seeking requires effort it seems.

Im speechless. U are blessed.

Bidam: thanks bro..u actually threw more light on that scripture..the others were just dancing around to prove a point.

Yeah he threw more light of that scripture to u. If u were following the thread from the begining, the OP made some of these points that this person that just answered u raised. Nobody (i suppose) is proving a point in this thread not to talk of dancing around to prove it. Even after the OP made his points, yr co-hell advocates started revisiting statements, finding holes and trying to counter what the OP had earlier stated.

Jesus was from Nazareth ( He was known as Jesus the Nazarene ie a person from the village of nazareth). Jesus WAS NOT A NAZARITE (people with a covenant and an oath not to cut their hair). Samson was a Nazarite.

6 pages and counting even after ive moved for the closure of the thread. Some people are now researching their bibles-SOMETHING THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE YEARS AGO. This is something that has been held unto for years-ignorantly.
Keep bringing yr arguments O (some are even baseless). U will still see IN YOUR BIBLE THAT THEY HAVE NO BEARINGS.
The bible is NOT A NEWSPAPER.

Bidam: I was reading my bible this morning and i stumbled on a scripture where jesus says and i quote: "but anyone who says you fool will be in danger of the fire of hell"...since you guys are saying hell is equivalent to the grave...pls can u candidly explain why jesus will mention "fire" in a grave? Pls no connectin,lifting and twisting of scriptures cos i get bored easily wen u bring semantics and logic to explanations..why did jesus mention 'FIRE' in mat 5:22?

Grave itself will be thrown into the lake of fire-IT WOULD ITSELF DIE TOO. They mean the same thing-DEATH. But "grave" is physical death. Those dead physically are not really dead. Its only their bodies that are dead. The lake of fire is the permanent death.

Image123: can any man stop Jesus, the chief teacher of hell?

May God forgive u for that statement.

truthislight: you should have told them never to preach the lie to any body again. Thanks.

Imagine, painting Yahweh black for satan.
*sigh*

Yes Yes Yes...

As part of the motion, i insist that hell advocates do not preach the lie again.

This thread is closed.
Thank u.

highyo: seeking the Kingdom of God, as your first priority, is an act of repentance and a cross to your selfish will
turning away from evil, as you understand it, is an act of repentance and a cross to your selfish will
you don't want to sit quietly every day to listen and watch, but if you do - it is a cross to your selfish will
if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev. 3:20
you don't want to obey his commands that you hear, but if you repent- it is a cross to your selfish will
you don't want to forgive injustices done to you, but you repent and forgive - a cross to your angry self
you don't want to admit and regret what the Light shows your condition to be, but if you repent - it is a cross to your will
(this is the place where you get changed, where your peace increases; in the Light)
you don't want to give to others from your excess, but if you repent from your selfishness and give- it is a cross to your will
you don't want to defer (deny self) to others, rather than insist on your way, but if you repent and defer - it is a cross to your will

Emmm...how do these relate to the question i asked?

With the authority in me as a member of nairaland and with the available facts via the above pages that the hell advocates could not express their views not to talk of giving an objective answer to the above questions, i move the motion for the official close and termination of this thread.
Thank u and take yr hell doctrines else where.

Goshen360: Those who claim to have a separate and new revelation are simply contradicting God's word for every word and revelation of God is FINAL and COMPLETE in Christ. There's nothing more to be added and nothing to be subtracted. Here's it,

Amplified Bible (AMP)
In many separate revelations [each of which set forth a portion of the Truth] and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets, [But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order]. - Hebrews 1:1-2

May God bless u with many houses for this post.

enilove: why do you not want to believe this message?
The bible says that we should lay up treasures for ourselves in heaven and not on earth mathew 6:20.
If you do not believe in Jesus you are condemned already .You need to trust him completely and do not trust on your own understanding that can fail you.The devil is wiser than all the professors in this world ,dead or alive,put together.
If you want to marry commit it into the hands of God.He knows the wife that suits you and the husband that will not break your heart.
If you want to invest pray and God that knows all the businesses of this world will direct you.
To choose a carrier, pray so that your God given destiny can be fulfilled.A Doctor reading law can not really get the best as a lawyer.
Is it travelling , you need to commit it into the hands of God for a journey mercy etc.
Like the parable of the ten virgins, we need to be living our lives as if the lord will come in the next hour.
what this guy said in the message here should not be taken for granted like in the days of Noah.

Oga please.
Every saint already has AT LEAST, A MANSION IN HEAVEN. And if God will spend just six days to construct the earth, and He is taking almost 2000 years and counting, to prepare heaven for His saints, the houses (definitely which are not like we have on earth and cannot be described) would also be ready for the occupants. Maybe a faithful tither's house will be bigger than the one that is not that faithful. But to say there are uncompleted houses in heaven-CHEAPENS THE PLACE AND IS A DIVINE INSULT. Do u think that God is using cement and blocks to build heavenly houses? How dare u reduce God to yr lagos landlords? How dare u?

What will the religious section be without highyo?

Im kind of confused, O highyo. What, i pray thee, is the connection between the completed beautiful houses-in heaven i suppose(since u are anti-wealth "on earth" and the giving of tithes? Please explain sir.

frosbel: Thank you.

The scary thing is that these false teachers are driving new babies in Christ away from the gospel and are responsible for the number of disillusioned atheists we have today.

The bible says it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD.

Just imagine on that day , the wicked will be raised and judged and then all their secrets will exposed and their shame will be a public event. At this time , they will suddenly realize that this is the end for them , no hope whatsoever.

They will hear the master say "depart from your you cursed into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels " , then to be taken by angels to the edge of the lake and suddenly realize it's over. The angels will throw them into this lake along with all the other wicked , to be burnt to ashes and they will die forever.

"Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty." - Malachi 4:3

Even though this is the biblical chain of events, this is not enough punishment for the sadictic doctrine of eternal hell, they want more blood, though they themselves in many ways are not certain of being saved on the last day, for while they castigate others and put this immense burden on their shoulders, they had better be careful to avoid rejection themselves from the master on the last day.

Thats why they cant answer the atheists. And rather than answer the OP, they are throwing insults.

Lets use apostle John's "glasses"...shall we?
So he saw a throne with God (Jesus apparently) sitting on it. And people woke up again from death to be judged. Books were opened and judgements read. He also saw death and hell fire (the place of torment) come for judgement (very striking). Almost all of these were thrown into a burning fire WHERE THEY PERISHED. Thats why he called it second death-PEOPLE RESURRECTED ONLY TO BE KILLED AGAIN.

Mr Frosbel and Mr Image...make una no fight O.
I kind of like this thread.

Image123: No my friend, we too can read english. This again is what Jesus actually said.
Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
"It shall be" is future, not past, not present. In the future, it shall be more tolerable for sodom. the final judgement of sodom will be more tolerable than some other folks.
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

In other news,
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
The teaching is that every generation will rise in the judgement day, including Sodom. And when i say Sodom and Gomorrah,i'm talking about its inhabitants. It's like when scriptures talk of Israel or Egypt, it is referring to the inhabitants.

True. The inhabitants will rise for their final judgement. But the condemnation to the cities will be more than that of sodom et al because they had the priviledge of having Jesus himself warning them at that time which they refused.
And yes u read english but try reading yr lines..."MORE TOLERABLE ...IN THAT DAY..." there is no mention of eternity even in these scriptures! Just as there will be rewards in heaven (though everyone there will have eternal life)-the JUDGEMENT OF THE WICKED WILL ALSO HAVE GRADES. That is where some people coin out theories that some fires will be hotter than others-EITHER WAY THEY WILL ALL END IN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION. Thank u.

Death been caged and destroyed MEANS DEATH ITSELF WILL BE BOUND AND PUT TO DEATH NOT THAT IT WILL BE PARALYSISED. It is satan that will be paralysised and incapable for one thousand years during Christ reign on earth AND NOT DEATH. The one that made people to die on earth will itself be put to death. Note..."Hades" where is refered to as the place of torment (and its actually known as hell fire) will itself go into its end in the lake of fire. Satan as it were knows HIS TIME IS SHORT-HIS TIME OF EXISTENCE! Satan is coming to an end. Where? The lake of fire.
If u say that spirits will be alive, then they will be fine since they will burn but not get consumed. They will be without food and water WHICH THEY CAN DO WITHOUT WHEN THEY ARE OUT OF THE BODY. What are u people saying?

Ibadiarann: It is well with Lagos state.

Amen

nathdim: If dem call am tiger wetin we go call pope

The pope is a Dinosaur

And it is really sad to note that as at now, rather than taking on the OP initial questions, it has been 5 pages of personal attacks and questions of whether who and who has been saved. Is it out of hatred some people preach about hell fire? So they know nothing other than hell fire? I weep for sunday services!

Neddivine: If you have kept long in the christian race you'll come to experience die hard temptations & trials that though you love God it will only require your fear of God & fear of eternal torment to defeat them.Such temptations that come at unguarded hours & at the point of deep spiritual weakness.In such circumstances your love for God alone will only make u get permissive and yield to sin believing that God understands.So the fear of God ( & fear of eternal distruction) also makes men to depart/flee from evil according to the scriptures.

U are talking to a former occultisit who knew he was going to hell and so busied himself with how to enjoy life and make plenty money on earth until he encountered Someone who loved him despite that demonic life. U are talking not to someone who did not say there is no God, but knew that there was God but confessed that He was wicked and was not afraid to declare it. U are talking to someone raised in the art of demonic fellowship so please (with all humility) i would refuse to do sin now (EVEN IF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO DO ONE WRONG IN SOME OCCASSIONS), not because im scared of hell, but the One that first loved me IS WORTH MY LIFESTYLE. Somehow, we former bad boys seem to know more than u good boys (who supposedly preached to us). ITS NOT OUT FOR FEAR (been scared of judgement of hell fire) WE SERVE GOD BUT OUT OF LOVE, RESPECT AND REGARD (which is the "fear and trembling" He said in His word, that He demands from us)since u good boys did not give us a chance to think He loved us even more.

Bidam: sir! Correct me if am wrong but i see self righteousness, pride and bigotry in your post here..are u rlly a christian? Or just playing religion?

I myself dropped that post out of annoyance...im not proud sir...my point is some christians know their purpose. Been a christian is not all about going to heaven. There are some things to do on earth which the world ought to benefit from u. It is these things that will ensure u are greatly rewarded in heaven. So as a christian, while keeping yrself from backsliding, u are also impacting yr environment with yr light (which u will be rewarded for in heaven).
Some christians study. They want to know what they would be doing in heaven. Who will they rule over? How will they judge angels etc. etc...How deep is this known love of God etc etc..
Some christians ask questions! They dont keep quiet. They study. They research. They dont just take things hook line and sinker...

And those are the type of people i expected to be responding to this thread.

There is nothing about self righteousness here. I used the word "us" (in the point "some of us are in the level of working for our ranks...." to mean CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL AND NOT ME AND A CLIQUE.

Neddivine: All frosbel will achieve by threads such as this is to give sinners reason not to repent and true believers reason to backslide.His is similar or same as the doctrine of annihiliation as upheld by adventists.If I knew all I had to suffer is once and for all termination at the end of life should I sin, then I'll probably drop my bible and have my fill of all sinful lifestyes.Almost all christians will do the same.I mean what is then the basis of horrible afflictions,severe suffering,self denials & brutalities that many believers endure rather than sin against God.Many genuine xtians would rather suffer and die rather than tell a single lie.
I seriously councel mr frobel to pray for light.Also try to back your interpretations on this matter with real life experiences of thousands that God gave them visions of hell and those that died but God sent them back to warn others-all since church history till now.Its true we can't believe all such stories but all of them can't be lies.Just pray and fast till God shows you the ones that are true and scriptures backing them and pray and fast till God shows you the truth on this matter instead of relying on your own carnal interpretations.

Im angry at yr post. If that is yr mind-set dont think that all christians are like u. AND TRUE-HELL FIRE IS THE POINT OF EVIL'S ANNIHILATION. It is where satan comes to an end.
If u or anybody feel the need to backslide since its "once and for all", be my guest. But there are some of us that are in a level of working for our ranks and status in heaven/paradise. U are only interested in hell because u dont have any root-u are only in this race out of fear so appreciate the fact that some people are deeper in it.
I think it would have been better that matured (i mean in learning and not years) christians are only to contribute in this thread-drop yr emotions aside...and lets talk more about heaven (and if not because of the hatred in yr hearts towards others, its heaven that u people ought to be talking about. Now the condemnation message has been shown not to have water. )