₦airaland Forum

AMINDA:
So it is with the man Elrufai. Different people have different perceptions about him. Those who love him do so as fiercely as those who hate him. Love him, hate him, but you can't ignore him. That's Elrufai for you. He was the only man that Tinubu publicly begged to support him and despite being incarcerated by Tinubu for 200 days now and counting, he continues to shape conversations heading into 2027. He's an enigma.

Enigma, I agree. And what he did for Tinubu was a lot in terms of the presidential election/ APC ticket. And his continued incaceration is politics. Nasty politics.

AMINDA:
Elrufai was an appointee of president Obasanjo during the feud with Atiku and naturally sided with his boss. He opposed Obasanjo when he sought to get himself a third term. His remarks about Obasanjo in his book, the "Accidental Public Servant" was an honest critique and not an attack. Overall, it portrayed Obasanjo in good light. If you haven't read the book, please get your self a copy. You will have a better understanding of Elrufai and appreciate the rigours and intrigues of Public service.

It must be stated that Elrufai was DG BPE and Mayor of the FCT before going to contest as governor of Kaduna upon the formation of APC. He was a proper no-nonsense technocrat who delivered on both jobs in sterling colours. No one ever called Elrufai a bigot until he took the difficult job of governing Kaduna that has been embroiled in religious crisis dating back to the 80s. He did his best and the records are there but those calling him a bigot or killer today are very unfair considering that the killings still persist today, not just in Kaduna but several other states if Plateau, Benue, and others. None of the governors of those states get accused of killing their people. Elrufai is highly misunderstood but that is his destiny.

Not only have I read the book, and have a copy in my personal library, I am personally acquainted with the man and know him quite well.

It is false to say that he is not a bigot as we all recall his remarks concerning Islam and governance of Nigeria.

We also know his hands have been bloody in Southern Kaduna.

I don't want to say more than this on this platform but he is someone to be wary of.

Yes. Brilliant, sharp, etc but his nepotism and crude authoritarianism as FCT minister were the stuff of legend.

AMINDA:
First of all, the lie that Elrufai betrayed Atiku must be put to rest. First of all, Atiku never brought Elrufai to limelight. Elrufai was already an accomplished professional and co-founder of one of the foremost quantity surveying firms (Google "Elrufai & Partners" and checkout their portfolios) in Nigeria even before 1999. Elrufai was a first-class Quantity Surveyor and the first Quantity Surveyor in the country to bevome Chartered. Obasanjo brought him to head the BPE after he drafted a privatisation pathway for the country as part of the Transition Committee of the Abdulsalam military to democracy regime. BPE then just happened to be under the Vice President as Head of the economic Council and he never betrayed Atiku. Elrufai has always been wealthy and a cerebral collusus. Please read his interview granted to princeton University as far back as 2009 while he was FCT Minister, the best FCT Minister till date.

https://successfulsocieties.princeton.edu/interviews/nasir-el-rufai

I take it therefore that your candidate Atiku has been lying when he claimed such?

AMINDA:
Name one person he betrayed. I will wait.

Come on, he even betrayed your Atiku and OBJ also wrote about his "treachery" -

I extract -

----------------
1. Atiku Abubakar (Former Vice President of Nigeria) -

The Context: Atiku Abubakar was instrumental in bringing El-Rufai into public service, bringing him on board during the Bureau of Public Enterprises (BPE) era in the late 1990s. Cables released by WikiLeaks and accounts from observers confirmed that El-Rufai initially held Atiku in high regard and acknowledged him as his key benefactor in government.

The Alleged Betrayal: When the relationship between President Olusegun Obasanjo and Vice President Atiku Abubakar deteriorated in 2003–2006, El-Rufai shifted his allegiance to Obasanjo. He actively worked with Obasanjo's camp to undermine Atiku’s presidential ambitions, submitting reports and briefing foreign diplomats to block Atiku's candidacy. Atiku has publicly cited El-Rufai and Nuhu Ribadu as figures who betrayed his personal trust after he brought them into the administration.

2. Olusegun Obasanjo (Former President of Nigeria)

The Context: President Obasanjo elevated El-Rufai from the BPE to Minister of the FCT and kept him in his inner cabinet circle. El-Rufai was one of Obasanjo's most trusted administrators during his second term.

The Alleged Betrayal: Following the end of Obasanjo's administration in 2007, El-Rufai penned his memoir, The Accidental Public Servant (2013). In the book, El-Rufai strongly criticized Obasanjo, highlighting alleged authoritarian tendencies, hypocrisy, and micromanagement during his tenure. Obasanjo publicly responded in his own memoir, My Watch, where he described El-Rufai as a figure prone to duplicity and "compulsive treachery" despite the opportunities given to him.

3. Shehu Sani (Former Senator representing Kaduna Central)

The Context: Shehu Sani and El-Rufai were close allies during the formation of the APC in Kaduna State, jointly opposing the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) prior to the 2015 general elections.

The Alleged Betrayal: Once El-Rufai assumed the governorship and Shehu Sani became a senator, El-Rufai turned aggressively against Sani over ideological differences and local political control. El-Rufai orchestrated Sani's suspension from the local APC structure, blocked his re-election bid, and publicly mocked him. Senator Sani has consistently described El-Rufai as someone who turns against anyone who refuses to submit to absolute dominance.

AMINDA:
So, in a nutshell, this isn't different from Tinubu's modus operandi. Elrufai has always maintained that the people of Southern Kaduna are only against him because he refused to place some people on payroll and government largesse. If you doubt him, ask yourself what happened to the voices of Bishop Kukah and the likes. The activists who supported Obi in 2023 on social media are fast switching camp to the APC. Elrufai has a complicated destiny as he always gets bettayed by those he helps, but in the end, he eventually triumphs against his foes. Time is a gentleman.

To be fair, he also was a serial betrayer of people.

LordReed:
Very simply, exchange of genetic material between 2 geneticaly differentiated individuals has more evolutionary and survival advantage than to continually use a single strain of genetic material. You get better adaptability, disease and mutation purging in the population.

All you have done here is mention the benefits. You have NOT explained the process. Nor have you surmounted the conundrum presented.

LordReed:
Very simply, exchange of genetic material between 2 geneticly differentiated individuals has more evolutionary and survival advantage than to continually use a single strain of genetic material. You get better adaptability, disease and mutation purging in the population.

This is not an explanation. Not even remotely and you have not shown that you grasp the conundrum I described.

LordReed:
Hope that is not another project you won't have time for.




Not sure what you were expecting.




It does have an explanation. What it doesn't have is evidence of when sexual dimorphism occurred. Mostly likely because it occurred much earlier in microscopic organisms, which are not very easy to find fossils of.

Where is the explanation? Pls don't repeat the one you offered, it says nothing.

PS: Sorry, I will try have time.

LordReed:
Evidence please.

I will dedicate a post or even thread to this.
It may not be so much evidence of the kind you like but it will be an explanation of the evident gaps in history and the reasons why it is absurd to think humans and human civilization are as young on this planet as science says.

Because skin would be a weird thing for evolutionary biologist to say in this situation as skin cells are relatively far along the evolutionary path. Skin cells are already specialised cells.

U know you havent said anything here.

Again you seem to be struggling with the evolutionary idea. Systems are built on other systems and don't come as an already integrated system. For example mitochondria in cells didn't develop within cells they were absorbed into the cell structure and began a symbiosis. We wouldn't be looking for a fully built reproductive system as we see it now in the past. We instead would see something akin to how some worms reproduce with a single individual carrying both male and female gametes and then over time the population separating into individuals specialising in carrying 1 type of gamete. This is evidenced in the development of a human fetus. For the first several weeks of development, all embryos look exactly the same internally and externally. They possess "bipotential" tissue, meaning it has the potential to become either male or female reproductive organs.

This does not even begin to address the conundrum I raised and I fear you didnt understand the conundrum at all. Many have failed to anyway. And they all say the same thing - "You dont understand evolution."

Evolution has no explanation for sexual reproduction, period.

Dtruthspeaker:
How do you mean we can't prove that He is the very God described in the Bible?

It is one thing to prove that an ultimate source exists and quite another to prove that it is that same hideous character described in scripture, who is yet still benevolent and loving, allegedly.

I mean no offense but I concur with chieveboy that these discussions are not for you.

yeshuasfootstep:
To begin with, we're not atheists.

You see how you use to watch your kids or little siblings playing Mama and Papa game, cooking, even building little houses with all seriousness.

That's how we view the world, dissecting and analysing it and putting everything straight.

More like an umpire.

That's what we do at UWAKIN. Just type UWAKIN on your Facebook.

Back to our issue:

Your argument collapses at the exact point where you claim it becomes a “proof.”

You say science begins with observation. Correct. So let us actually observe what you have established.

“I have never observed a thing creating itself” does not logically become “therefore everything that exists was created by another thing.”

That is an inductive observation being promoted into a universal metaphysical law without sufficient justification.

You have observed that things within our experience have causes. You have not observed the origin of the universe being created by God.

And here is the crucial distinction you keep avoiding:

I do not have to prove that the universe was not created in order to point out that you have not proved that it was created.

You made the positive claim:

“Everything must be created by another thing.”

Therefore, the burden of demonstrating that universal premise belongs to you.

Saying, “You cannot prove me wrong, therefore I am right,” is not logic. That is an argument from ignorance.

If I say, “There is an invisible dragon in my house,” and you cannot prove there isn't one, have I therefore provided proof of the dragon?

Obviously not.

Now your argument becomes even more interesting.

You say “No thing creates itself.”

Fine. I agree. But notice what that actually gives you:

Self-creation is not an explanation.

It does not give you:

“Therefore God created the universe.”

There is an enormous logical gap between those two statements.

And your own theology exposes the problem.

If something can exist without being created, you cannot claim that everything requires a creator.

You therefore say God is uncreated.

Fine. Then you have conceded the fundamental possibility that something can exist without being created.

Your argument is no longer:

“Everything needs a creator.”

It becomes:

“Everything except God needs a creator.”

But now you owe us an argument for why God gets the exemption and the universe, or reality itself, does not.

You cannot simply define God as “the uncreated Creator” and then present that definition as evidence that God exists.

That is not discovery. It is definition.

And finally, you keep saying, “There is no valid argument against God.”

That does not prove God.

The inability to disprove a proposition is not evidence that the proposition is true.

Science does not currently establish either:

“God exists.”

or

“God does not exist.”

So claiming that Christians are “the winners” because nobody has disproved God is simply declaring victory because the opponent has not accepted your premise.

You have successfully argued that self-creation is incoherent. You have not successfully argued that the universe was created by a conscious being, that the being is God, or that the God is the Christian God.

Those are four different propositions, and you have provided evidence for only the first.

So no, atheism has not been defeated. You have simply taken an unanswered question about ultimate reality and inserted your preferred answer into the gap.

“We don't know” is intellectually honest.
“Therefore God” is an additional argument.

And an additional argument still requires proof.

Most religionists do not realize that even if they successfully prove that a God exists, they still have a long way to go to show that it is the kind of God described by their particular religion.

LordReed:
No there was none at 100,000 years ago.

You sound pretty confident almost as though you were there.
I am confident that you are wrong.

Bro you should listen again, he didn't say skin.

Alright, perhaps my memory is off, tell me what he said and lets see if its any better. Its not far from that. It was plain idiocy.
PS: Are you sure we are talking about the same speech? I think I refer to an extract from his book, "The God Delusion." Either that or "The Blind Watchmaker."

PS: I checked, he said "a patch" . . . how is this different from or better than "skin?"

It doesn't matter if you are alone or not, that is not a decider of what is a fact.

Yes the sexual dimorphism issue has not been solved

It never will be. Because of the below.

but the chicken egg one has been sorted. Spoiler alert: it's the egg.

You missed my meaning. I mean that the evolution of sexual reproduction presents a chicken and egg problem in an analogical sense - namely, we would have to ask which came first, the sperm or the egg, the penis or the vagina, the testicles or the womb - all of which are complimentary and how the evolution of one in one sex stimuated the evolution of the other in the other sex, never mind the fact that there would be no creature to speak off during the process of evolution without those organs being there ab initio. Its an unsolvable conundrum.

algomachine:
Not perception but reality, look around you and tell me what Africans invented, I’m waiting

Ignorance.

LordReed:
Ok so what do you mean by civilisation.

An evolved social construct of human co-dwelling and interaction with established norms, laws and notable intellectual advancement.

Perhaps you are the one who hasn't given it sufficient thought. I understood Dawkins attempt to explain it to a lay person so maybe it is something you need to study further.

His explanation sounded daft and unconvincing and even he himself did not sound convinced.
Infact it is better to say his attempt at an excuse rather than his explanation because he sounded so terribly furtive, obviously because he knew he was talking trash in that instance. He talked about skin becoming sensitive to light and this supposedly accounted for the evolution of the eye with its complexities and its backend interpretation of signals in the visual cortex of a brain.

I am sorry, its a laughable joke.

I said made from not made by. If you understand evolution then I don't see why you struggle with the fact that more complex biological processes evolved from simpler ones.

Well, I accept evolution to an extent. I simply dont accept that it accounts for certain things. As you know, I am not alone in believeing it can NEVER logically account for the evolution of sexual reproduction as an insurmountable chicken and egg conundrum would arise.

AMINDA:
We say no to violence. Has anyone noticed that APC is yet to organise a single campaign for Tinubu in the Southwest? E get why. Man is not as popular in his region as they like to pretend. The last walk they did for Tinubu in Lagos, na dispute over 1500 scatter everything.

I want to even see how he will come out personally for rallies.

erad:
The question now is, at what point do you get to the ultimate cause and how do you prove it?

The red is probably impossible and beyond humans to dscuss as we cannot comprehend infinity or eternity but the blue can be logically inferred, but not physically scientifcally proven because it is beyond physical science.

erad:
One of the tricky things about the creator theory that most religious people will never accept is that it is a never-ending loop.

If you insist the world and how it works is so beautiful and intricate and therefore must have been created by a creator... You also have to be willing to welcome the idea that that creator didn't just appear one day and must have been created by another creator... And that creator by another creator... At what point does the loop end?

In philosophy, it is well understood that the ultimate cause must be a self-existent factor which is uncaused, which is.

LordReed:
What do you mean by ours?

This present civilization under present recorded history of max ten thousand years or so.

I do attribute the emergence of the brain to a non intentional process. People who attribute it to intelligence are like the puddle analogy, simplistic reasoning assuming that their circumstances were engineered specifically for their benefit when instead the circumstances engineered their benefit.

I dont think it makes any sense to attribute the development of the brain or the eye to an unguided process. For me, people who do simply have not thought about the matter sufficiently or even do not understand the complexity of these organs.

Richard Dawkins himself tried to explain the evolution of the eye and in spite of my admiration for him, he ended up sounding daft. At least he admitted it was difficult to think of in evolutionary terms.

I choose the solution that doesn't use complexity to try to explain complexity when our universe indicates otherwise. In this universe, complex things are made from simpler things.

That is an assumption. The things humans make are rarely as complex as humans for example.
Is a Barbie Doll as complex as a human who made it?
That alone torpedoes your premise.

Please note that I do not discountenance evolution. I simply say that there are other factors at play.

LordReed:
You do. If you must successfully counter my argument you must produce evidence of these civilisations from 100,000 years ago. The date was not randomly selected by the way. I selected it specifically because writing didn't exist then.

So let me start like this - do you think or believe ours is the first human civilization on Earth?

It is predicated on recognising it is a watch and knowing that watchmakers exist.

Also very much on recognizing its technical nature, the put-together-parts, the functionality and the purpose it delivers - all of which are present in things like a brain and which no sane person will attribute to either chance or any process absent mindful intent.

Have you stopped to consider why an intelligent maker would choose such unintelligent schemas for biological systems? Look at the vagus nerve in giraffes.

Unlike most religionists, I do not think our creators or their designs are / were perfect.

Internal anatomy and phagocytic process of a white blood cell. Source: Britannica

Key Internal Structures & Their Functions

Pseudopodia ("False Feet" ): Temporary extensions of the cell membrane powered by the actin cytoskeleton that stretch out to envelope foreign pathogens.

Nucleus & Nucleolus: The central command unit containing DNA. It directs protein synthesis and signals the cell to migrate toward inflammation zones (chemotaxis).

Phagosome (Internalized Vesicle): The membrane-bound pouch formed inside the cell once a bacterium is completely enclosed.

Lysosomes / Granules: Sacs filled with hydrolytic enzymes (like lysozymes and proteases) and reactive oxygen species (like hydrogen peroxide). They fuse with the phagosome to form a phagolysosome, destroying the trapped pathogen.

Mitochondria: Supply ATP energy required for rapid cell movement, membrane remodeling, and active enzyme production.

Endoplasmic Reticulum & Ribosomes: Synthesize crucial defense proteins, cytokines (chemical signals), and digestive enzymes.

Golgi Apparatus: Modifies, packages, and routes these newly synthesized proteins into functional granules or secretory vesicles.
------
This is a small high level summary of the inner workings of a single cell which is something so miniscule it cannot be seen with the naked eye. It is by itself a well ordered super factory and work station at a staggering level of thought.

This is a high level summary. A detailed summary would leave any serious thinker perplexed.

LordReed:
I know because there is evidence of when writing started and there is no evidence from before that.

Within this civilization.
There is evidence that there have been civilizations before this civilization.

Of course, much of the smaller details of functionality of such civilizations would be lost via whatever disasters evicerated those civilizations.
If an apocalyptic meteor hit the Earth today, most evidence of everyday functionalities of this civilization would also be lost.

Mention some of these Ooparts from 100,000 years ago.

I dont need to satisfy a randomly selected timeline by you. It is sufficient that Ooparts exist and also sufficient that we can infer civilizations before this one.

Another bad argument. We know there is a watch maker because we have seen the watchmaker. You cannot say the same for your factors.

I did say it would be simplistic to you.
But the argument of the watchmaker is not made on account of having seen the watchmaker. Absolutely not. In fact the original argument states that the watch is found in a deserted place and no watchmaker seen. The argument is made on account of knowing by logic that a watch with the functions it displays would require a maker.

For me, the intricate functions of certain things logically disclose an intelligent maker. The eye is one of those things. But there are many. I dont know if you have stopped to look into the structure and interior of a single white blood cell.

AMINDA:
Instead, he chose to enter into a signed one-term agreement with Kwankwaso. Such agreements are made with stakeholders from a region. Not just a one-man show. Many Southeasterners invested in the ADC project. Like Abaribe, Ihedioha, Ben Obi, etc. Ralph Nwosu resisted Tinubu’s offers to make his party, the ADC, the platform for the coalition. Obi chose to leave abruptly without considering their sacrifices. He shouldn't have bothered joining in the first place. That move also cost Kwankwaso huge political capital in Kano, but he can afford not to bother much because Abba Kabir is his in-law, and his son is on the NDC ballot as deputy governor. If he ends up shoring his popularity in the Southeast, he would consider it a win for himself heading into 2031.

Honestly Obi's ADC adventure does not speak well of his character or intentions AT ALL.

Dtruthspeaker:
Ah! But you started the bad arguments and now you are raising it against him.

Deepsight, see why you should learn to identify bad arguments?
The fact that you are an atheist won't stop your brother atheist from using it against you whenever he feels like!

I am not an atheist.
I am basically agnostic.

I might say an agnostic-deist if that is not a stretch of combination.

LordReed:
This is a bad argument, you can use it for anything.

I know because there was no writing back then.

You dont know that there was no writing back then.
Hundreds of Out of Place Artefacts (Ooparts) give sufficient cause to consider the likelihood of civilizations having existed long long long before the present one.

What is the evidence of these other factor(s)?

It would sound simplistic to you but the very watch is evidence of the watchmaker.

Akpakomiza2:
One of the greatest virtues in life is patience. Tinubu is patient and calculating. Even Datti said Tinubu's opponents are not better than him and the voters know. Rather stick with a familiar foe than an unknown foe

I think Obi will be less corrupt than him, far less, thats if he is corrupt to any significant degree at all. I also think Atiku will be more democratic than him, less of a tyrant, but equally or more corrupt.

I have a slight suspicion that Obi will be overly opinionated as a leader and not listen to advice or change his mind on anything he has decided already even if the heavens fall. I also think Obi may morph into a cult leader type and his followers become a kind of Hitler Brown Shirt movement who will shut down all opposition.

AMINDA:
Not only should Obi have conceded due to age on his side, he should have also considered his overall regional interest. Tinubu did same when he travelled to Daura to convince Buhari out of retirement to come help get rid of his Southern brother, Jonathan. He didn't ask to be the candidate then. The Christian middlebelt who's interest Obi was seemingly considering have mostly ported to the APC in the wake of the party's diminishing popularity in the muslim North. In all, Obi contesting separately also serves a purpose as APC's strategy would have been "it's the turn of the South" if Obi wasn't on the ballot. Southeasterners joining Tinubu's lackeys to shout turn of the South are only sabotaging their region.

I thought leaving ADC was both foolish and unpatriotic of Obi. He should have partnered with Atiku, insisted on a written one term public agreement, and together, it would be almost impossible for BAT to defeat them this time no matter the magic.

AMINDA:
Rigging is not as easy as you all make it seem. If it were, APC would have won Osun. Tinubu is counting on the governors to be as brazen as Wike and be willing to kill their people if need be but not all of them will be willing or able to do that. Depending on how motivated the electorates are, 2027 election will be too big to rig. Even the most hard-core Tinubu supporter cannot chart a pathway to victory for him that does not involve the theory that they will rig. That's already failure staring them in the face.

Fair point, but I dont think BAT was seriously against Adeleke personally.

Akpakomiza2:
No one is denying his unpopularity esp in the north but even without rigging he will win because the opposition is divided and he has wider spread. His opponents are not exact popular

I concur on the point about opposition division. That is a sound point. I dont see how grown up and experienced leaders and politicians like Atiku and Obi could be so daft as to go against a master of the game like BAT - when in power as president - divided for the second time. That shows that they are unteachable, it also shows that their egos are more important to them than Nigeria and that they are selfish and lack strategic thinking and for that alone they even deserve to lose.

No matter how much I despise BAT i grant him the fact that he sat down for eight years and waited patiently for PMB. That was deep strategy, and Atiku and Obi have shown themselves incapable of that even once - the worse case being Obi who has age on his side.

GloriousGbola:
whats diff between homer and shakespeare?

Oshe.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

LordReed:
Then why wasn't there a Shakespeare a 100, 000 years ago?

You dont know that there wasnt.

It makes much more sense to me given the history of humans. The compounding effects over time puts things into perspective so much better.

I believe in evolution. I just dont believe it did it all. There was another factor or other factors at play. There are things evolution can never explain.

AMINDA:
Which is why I keep telling you that Tinubu is still standing on slippery ground. He had one of the least margin of victory ever in 2023 and 70% of his votes came from the North where he is now very unpopular. His purported in-roads into the South yet to be tested and is still hinged on betting on governors and rigging, not popularity amongst the electorates. If the people in the South apply the Osun template, he will be toast.

I wonder how even BAT supporters can deny that he is unpopular. It is one thing to admit he is unpopular but will win the election (which is my position - he will use state power and massive rigging) it is quite another to live in Nigeria today and imagine or claim that he is popular. That is the height either of delusion or bare faced lying.

LordReed:
You are looking at the end of billions of years of reiterative natural processes based on physical laws that don't need any intelligence to operate.

Maybe if we had a billion years to perfect computers they would be greater than biological brains.

Personally, regarding the extreme order, precision and fitness for purpose of certain things in this world, I don't buy the "billions of years" excuse. There are somethings that could never develop even with zillions of years, even with eternity without the deliberate direction of a mind.

Not even with eternity would a monkey be able to come up with the Complete Works of Shakespeare and not even with eternity would natural selection produce a brain that does what it does aside from things that have little to no correlation with survival such as poetry or philosophy.

I personally feel that there are somethings that natural selection can never explain and evolutionists in those cases hide behind billions of years.