₦airaland Forum

ooman: What are the chances that God could pop into existence from nothing to make everything?

Nobody says this: this is not and has never been the position of any theistic school of thought. Theists say that something - God - has always existed, and not that it popped out of nothingness. It is in fact atheist scientists, who have argued (via virtual particles and radioactive decay) that something may pop out of nothing. An alarmingly iidiotic position, of course.

What are the chances that the first cause was uncaused?

It could only be.

This is the nihility of God.

This is the nihility of your brains and reasoning faculties: and worse, of your intuitive perception.

Mr anony: I have now edited my post and added the verses. Let us find out what the bible teaches us about God's nature as He leads us.

Thank you very much. I will post mine and then we shall discuss.

A little word of caution: Let us not fall into the trap of pitting verses against each other to cancel each other out, rather let us seek to find out what the scripture points to altogether.

This is very well said, and I shall keep it in my b.reast pocket.

My Brothers always argue that Pac stands toe to toe with Fela and Bob Marley in depth of thought.

I always said that was disrespectful to Fela and Bob.

Not with "U claim to be a nigga and i f**cked your wife" and all that.

Nevertheless, he was young, very young still.

Obviously a profound mind at that age.

plaetton: This indeed very interesting, and in no small measure, I feel good to have contributed in any small way to this mini epiphany of yours.

But as always , I would appreciate your thoughts , your new chain of thoughts, no matter how distant from mine, so that, as always, I may see the issue from a vantage point so far obscured by my own cloud of bias.

I too , though ever so sceptical, might want to partake of the boon of a new spiritual awakening. lol

However, I have great reservations that the revert to the belief in a conscious personal god might, as it always does, be antithetical to your quest for understanding and meaning in an infinite universe.

" It is much better to start from a position of doubt and then work towards certainty, than to start from a position of certainty and then face doubts along the way".

Does it not strike you as strange that you did not always exist? That you only came to be born at a specific point in time in recent history. That you will die in not too distant history. The width and span of your consciousness. What does it all mean to you. And in the things that matter to you, where do you locate the impetus of evolution in deriving those things that a conscious living man regards as important to his time one earth, ere he departs.

Does the fact that you will have physical remains, not seem strange to you.

The fact that every part of you that is visible to other people today will remain visible to them in a dead form when you die. And yet, you are no longer there.

Do these things seem strange to you.

In your corner of eternity do you not recognize the fact that there could be, might be, may be, infinite corners of reality, of eternity. Whence your corner. Whence did it derive with its patterns.

Where does your past go? What do your memories mean?

What sort of being is at play here. Where is the man in the body that dies? What is the brain doing, and for what and for whom. For itself, as an independent creature?

Hmmmm. I cant start. I will, as I said, try and write during the week, but think on these few thoughts please.

Mr anony: Beautiful. I agree

Okay then. I await your production of the other verses you will tag "in support".

In the meantime, I shall produce and tag my verses "against."

It will be my intention to show that all scripture taken into account, the bible does not support the doctrine of the trinity.

plaetton: @Deepsight:

Big yawn!

My deepest apologies. I have had a very difficult and busy time of recent. I must also confess to you that I have put off my full response to the question of consciousness, because contemplating the issue carefully almost drove me to the fringes of sanity. It was far far far far too profound.

However, the thoughts I came in contact with during my contemplation are leading me to a major change in my views. I feel that I may at this point make a major shift from the concept of a non-personal, non interventionist God. My contemplations on this matter have led me to greater conviction on the very obvious existence of God, and, most likely, a definite, conscious, cognizant and personal God, contrary to my views hitherto.

Have no doubt: you will never know the extent to which this thread has affected me: it just may perhaps be the thread to have had the biggest impact on me during my sojourn on Nairaland.

My hesitation to write, springs from the depth of the thoughts on consciousness that arose within me. I hate to say this here, lest you think me melodramatic; but in all truth, the thoughts have caused me sleepless nights and great confusion, such that I had to take some time off.

Nevertheless, you have my word, I shall respond this week.

Mr anony: Interesting. Are you sure you are up for this? The verses are plenty o. Please permit me to delay a bit in giving a response I'll use the NKJV just like you have as well So that we are completely on the same page.

Watch this space

Yes I am VERY up for it indeed. I have had thousands of Trinity discussions on this forum in the past: many of them very fiery and extensive. However I don't think I have ever done a verse by verse in this way, and I am looking forward to it. Happily, this comes at as close a time as I think I will ever be to being open to religious ideas, on account of certain deep personal experiences. As such, I can promise to keep a keen eye out for truth and to concede wherever I see a valid point made. I will ask the same of you.

I will wait for you to add to the verses above first, as the verses you intend to rely upon, and then I will list my verses. We will start the verse-by-verse with your verses.

For each verse, where appropriate, since we agreed to take a fairly academic approach to this, we should discuss -

1. History

2. Authenticity

3. Context

4. Linguistic Interpretation (Hebrew/ Greek) original meanings.

5. Logical interpretation.

6. Association with comparative scripture on same topic.

7. Scholastic views.

Agree?

Alright Mr Anony. We had agreed to have a verse by verse discussion on every verse in scripture which either suggests the Trinity or the Deity of Christ.

I will start this by listing the verses which I think you might view as suggesting such. Please add other verses which you believe suggest either the Trinity or the Deity of Christ. Let us then discuss these verses one at a time. In my next post, I will list verses which suggest strongly the contrary, and we will, when done with your verses in support, discuss my verses against.

Here are verses i believe you will see as being in support. Please, as a first step, add any more verses you intend to rely upon. For ease of reference, we will number the verses and refer to them according to the numbers throughout the thread. Your verses will be tagged "A" and mine " D ".

A1 - Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (NKJV)

A2 - 2 Corinthians 13:14 -- The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. (NKJV)

A3 - John 1:1 &3 - 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (NKJV)

A4 - John 24:25-26 - "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (NKJV)

A5 - Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (NKJV)

A6 - John 10:30 - "I and My Father are one.'' (NKJV)

A7 - John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!' (NKJV)

A8 - John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.(NKJV)

A9 - John 19:7 - The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.'' (NKJV)

A10 - John 8:58: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”.

Honestly, this country is just laughable. Billions recovered from Abacha every few years and not a single dollar ever recovered from IBB, OBJ, Abdulsalami and the coterie of billionaire officers and ministers that surrounded the various presidents. . . .

Death, obviously, is Abacha's crime.

The s.illy fellow ought to have known better than to die . . . .

Ah, and before I go, just for the sake of posterity - regarding the bold - "everywhere" - - ->

Gbawe: If he does not have the sense to leave issues alone and insist on calling me out everywhere over his 'unanswered questions'

and only wish to stalk me. . .Some of you guys simply need to grow up.

Deep Sight:

https://www.nairaland.com/1238009/pdp-cpc-anpp-others-violate#16200355

Ah. I see hard questions are simply ignored. Telling. Very telling.

Those who live in glass houses, as the saying goes, should not throw stones.

The quote above is the only comment I made in the other thread, prior to reminding Gbawe of the questions for the first time here. That post was made as far back as the 11th of June, and my first and only reminder came today, in this relevant thread, 28th of June. . . this is hardly "in your face hassling" and 'everywhere', is it?

I make this post because I do not wish anyone to falsely accuse me of being "everywhere" or "stalking" (used in response to Doncaster, but lumping us together) or "hassling" - - - which from the above, is very clearly false. I make this post just for records sake, for my reputation.

It emerges that this is in fact the first time I am reminding Gbawe about those questions, and yet he writes above that I am "hassling" him "everywhere" and insinuates some sort of stalking. This is dishonest, false, and most unethical to so deliberately and falsely denigrate another person's reputation, and I take exception to it.

Now, talk about e-character?

Gbawe: Dude, let us just agree to disagree. The fact you do not even learn from what I pointed out, and prefer to see it as "ad hominems" , is confirmation of all I have said. Why should you be calling other posters ungracious names, especially those who typify what is best about this forum, because they do not agree with you? I specifically used that thread to show you a contextually relevant example for why others may simply chose to ignore you. Have a nice weekend too.

That's all fair and good, but I must say very clearly that my take at their stance as cowardly (on a very critical national security issue) is fair and honest commentary, and not an insult. Besides, I do not follow this section as much as I follow the religion section, and so I am not conversant with many people's "e-character" as you say.

I address issues, and not people, and I would have expected you to have a similar approach.

Anyways, no palaver. Enjoy.

Gbawe: Because, like you, he has not stopped showing that he has issues with how I do not entertain his questions. If he does not have the sense to leave issues alone and insist on calling me out everywhere over his 'unanswered questions', surely it should be obvious to even you that I will, sooner or later, have to conclusively explain to him why I am not interested in his questions?

One reminder in the very same thread, and one reminder here, amounts to "everywhere"? Please don't wax narcissistic. I do not have any issues with your refusal to answer any question, my friend. I merely reminded you about a question I asked you.

Aside from the fact that this is in pointed contradiction to your own comments on answering a question of mine recently, but no matter, I needn't descend into the pit to begin to quote it, lest I become narcissistic too.

It seems that your hackles are unduly raised and your temper up once simple but hard questions are asked of you. That's rather disappointing sir.

This is why I avoid Deep sight and people like you once certain characteristics emerge about your e-conduct here.

Thanks for your gratuitous insults (even when no one has insulted you). Looks like you woke on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Try and take it easy and have a beer in the evening, it could help.

Gbawe: I have no interest in answering your questions. Why? Because your style of talking here means you simply want confirmation of opinions you have formed already. Nothing anyone says will make a difference to you and I would not really want to waste my time indulging such rigidity. I have been a member of this forum long enough to know I do not have to oblige everyone over every issue. If someone, for example, like eGuerrilla,Naptu2 or HNosegbe asked what you did, then I would be compelled to respond because of their e-character.

Looking at how you are here, arrogantly ignoring the topic under discussion, and trying to force me to go elsewhere and deal with your enquiry on another thread as if I owe you anything? Those are the sort of things that speak to me. That is the equivalent of getting in someone's face in real life and hassling them. I don't do such here. I live and let live.

Look at your own antics below against two respected posters here merely because they don't proffer argument to suit where you wanted to go with the discussion. Should you be losing your cool, going over the top, and calling them "cowards", "ditherers" and unfit kings? Now, tell me if I am wrong for not wanting to pander to argument I know, 100%, will end up getting me nowhere positive.

https://www.nairaland.com/1320692/gbawe-whats-take-acns-stand/2

Your response to Naptu2:


Your response to eGuerrilla and Naptu2

With every respect sir, you are entitled to your views, just as surely as I am entitled to see this for what it is: namely a lame cop-out. It is obvious that you are not willing avert your mind to hard questions regarding the ACN when they are asked or are pointedly obvious. I cannot see how the ad hominem in yours speaks to anything: if anything I would have expected you to speak to issues and not to persons.

As for "rigidity," I find that rather strange as I am very open minded towards the various parties in Nigeria. I have the most praise for the ACN (which I have always voted for) and the most condemnation for the PDP, (which I have never voted for) as I am most eager to see the back of the PDP especially at the Federal Level in this country. I am happy to praise that which I see as positive, and condemn that which I see as negative, wherever it may be found, and in whatever camp it rests. That's hardly rigidity. Now, that you cannot stand it when hard questions are asked of your camp, does not render the questioner rigid - it rather renders you manifestly rigid.

As for your ad hominems and referrals to other posters, I note that that thread concerned the ACN's response to the proscription of Boko Haram/ SoE. It would therefore seem that you are in fact the very rigid one in this matter, as you would take this most intolerant stance towards anyone criticizing the ACN.

As for "Hassling" - you have my sincere apologies on that, I never intended to hassle you. It was just a reminder, and I thought it apt to place it here, since the ACN vis-a-vis other parties is also an issue here. I certainly have no wish, time or inclination to "hassle" you.

Have a pleasant weekend, noble, kind and gracious sir.

@ Gbawe,

I left a few questions here for you, which it appears you never returned to -

https://www.nairaland.com/1238009/pdp-cpc-anpp-others-violate#16191951

Fair write-up: though I must own that Bola Ahmed Tinubu has demonstrated very admirable succession planning, and certainly bequeathed to Lagos a far better successor than Obasanjo ever did, either in '79, or 2007. Obasanjo, each time, deliberately set out to seek and deliver a weak successor, for reasons best known to him. Tinubu, on the contrary, delivered a strong-minded intellectually savvy and vision driven man. He just made sure the man was perfectly loyal to him. I don't mind that.

Having said that, I think it is more than clear by now that he is maximum ruler and supreme dictator within the ACN. The ACN has no internal democracy and his word is law. No one can deny that.

goodtalk: How else can you explain why t'he british prime minister told t'he world that they would be cutting aids from Nigeria for its refusal to support same sex marriage or homosexual/lesbian intimasy of course you can ask me of what relevance is this to solving maternal mortality and polio eradication for which some this aids where meant to address! So please spear me your munbo jumbo talk of Abike dabiri not getting a grasps of t'he issue!

Well, perhaps Gbawe ought to consider and respond to this point.

Freiburger: Look, Nigerians who are travelling to the UK for genuine reasons will never be affected by the UK policy since they will be getting their money back, it only affects those who are going there with a different intention, how does it affect them? by simply inflating their travelling cost, and these are the people you claim to be protecting their interest. This is what you should do, stop being greedy, fix up that economy so that your citizens wouldn't have any reasons to travel abroad and live illegal there, isn't that logic?

And you really think that every genuine visitor, even with good intentions, can afford to slap down 3k pounds as a bond?

Localamos: I'm sure you were still wearing pampers when Sani Abacha impounded a british airways plane in retaliation to the impound of a nigerian aircraft by the brits.

Hehehehehehe...

Tell him! ! !

justwise: Yes on business visa, so this policy will not affect business visa applicants.

O no, my tit for tat will affect ALL categories of visa, even if your hot air balloon is just straying i inch over our border for whatever purpose.

Freiburger: Yes for big purposes and not with the intention of overstaying their visas.

You don't understand national self interest. I am not interested in their intentions at all. I am only interested in protecting my citizens interests. Thus I will employ very severe tit for tat diplomacy to save you, and Bimbo, Emeka ND Amina down the street from this measure. Shikena.

In fact, no be fight. I will smilingly tell them that they have always been our teachers in everything, and we are humbly willing to continue to learn from them forever. As such, we are merely being a good student as usual by learning from our darling colonial master.

I will go further. Through the backdoor, again, and away from the public eye, i will start ensuring that false intelligence reports reach them of the surreptitious moves being made to ensure the withdrawal of our African brothers from the Commonwealth of Nations on a permanent basis. A hoax, of course.

I will go even further!

Chinwem: Clueless government , useless country

Only £20,000? Why not £200,000?

As if anybody wants to pay to visit hell on earth

Unless you are ignorant of the Nigerian Corporate and Business circles, you would know that tens of thousands of Brits have to visit Nigeria all the time for business purposes. Big Business.

There is absolutely no need to rationalize or defend the intended British Policy, as every nation's foreign policy must be dictated by its self interest and the interest of its citizens.

As such, the United Kingdom is free to implement the said policy, just as surely as we are free to implement a similar policy with regard to them.

Since the per capita income of the UK far outweighs that of Nigeria, we should place a bond on their citizens in exact proportion to the difference in per capita income. Thus, if the income of the average Nigerian is $10, and the income of the average Brit is $300, then, given their bond of 3000 pounds, the bond we will impose on them would be 90, 000 pounds.

Now there is no need to rationalize this in any way, shape or form: we are merely catering to our national self interest. If they cannot live with the bond we impose, then they would have to revisit the bond they have imposed.

This way, Nigeria will be taken more seriously in international affairs. They would be very wary of waking up tomorrow with any other such ideas of bonds. Its quite scandalous already, the amount of money they make from mere visa application fees.

Now, as President, I will go further. I know very well that Nigeria is a large nation by any parameters anywhere in the world. I know very well that we are strategically placed enough to hold our own diplomatically with any nation in the world, and we have done it several times in the past with this same Britain, South Africa, Russia, the USA and others.

As President, I would press the issue by directing that our 90, 000 pound bond takes effect next week.

I would further direct that all Britons currently in Nigeria have to remit the bond within one week, or be deported immediately.

Strategically I know that they cannot take same retaliatory steps because their interests far outweigh ours in every respect.

I would go further still. Not publicly, but privately, I would have my ambassador inform the British authorities that this will end very ugly. Businesses would be affected, oil mining licences withdrawn from companies with British equity, and many more. These people would think in their interests. During the Abacha years, Nigerian airlines were barred from Britain on safety grounds. The FG promptly barred BA on safety grounds. They blinked first, and they blinked immediately.

I tell you, we can more than hold our own diplomatically. The very first sneeze from the FG, if well targeted, will make the Brits cancel this instanta!

During the Yaradua years, these people were in a panic because the Chinese and Russians were making strong bids for Nigerian Oil Mining Licences that were about to expire. I would play dirty. As soon as I issue my directives on the bond for British Citizens, their intelligence services would simultaneously notice hectic and consistent visits of Russian and Chinese officials and businessmen to the Presidency in Abuja, and NNPC.

Dem no yet see bad boy presido, I tell ya.

FILEBE: kkkk. i tink i get it now
the fake hand is connected to a strap which holds him firm. however the fake arm is already glued or fasten against the wall/body.
get it?

thanks Uyi Iredia. almost started pondering heavily. Magicians are full of tricks no special power jor

Yep! And many many many more methods that one could think of, if one only applied one's brains!

O come on guys, it takes just a little brilliance to think of many ways in which this and other acts couldbe accomplished.

Off the top ofmy head I can think immediately of two methods -

1- He is not there: its a hologram depicting his moving image: virtual reality images from a projector in the box.

2- He is there: but power hidden air propulsion systems attached to the bus keep him hovering. Just like hover crafts.

There are many ways that this can be done. The thinking, will smile, the unthinking, will say - - - magic!

Still no response from our Christian soldiers.

Logicboy03: Anony the coward?

The guy will either avoid it or he will start asking meaningless questions and using "special" definitions.


So far Anony has his own definition for
-Christian
-born again
-being in christ
-morality.

All these words have special entry in the Anony dictionary

Oh, by the way, we know you are Mr. Troll.

Well, obviously the post was too heavy laden with substantive points.

[size=16pt]IN THE INTEREST OF TRUTH, WE MUST NOT LET THIS THREAD DIE: MAZAJE'S WONDER POST MUST BE ADDRESSED BY ANONY AND CO: IF THEY DO NOT ADDRESS IT, POINT FOR POINT, THEN IT MUST BE CONCLUDED THAT INDEED THEY HAVE NO PLAUSIBLE RESPONSE, AND INDEED, PAULINE CHRISTIANITY IS A VERITABLE FRAUD.[/size]

^^^ Thats because you can't! That post by Mazaje was world class and award winning, and it completely destroys every shred of Mr Anony's points. I challenge any christian to attempt rebutting his excellent points. NOBODY CAN.

Mr anony: wetin dey bite you?

Some unbearable statements!

wiegraf: Why so angry? Please explain if you can. You can begin with

"atheists don't believe a man can live inside a whale for 3 days"

"atheists don't believe mauling 42 children with bears for calling a bald man bald is moral"

"atheists find it weird that the supposed creator of everything couldn't fend off his enemies (why does he even have enemies among his creations? Ah, free will) because they had chariots made of iron". (I suppose no doubt because it was a novel invention to the god of a people still using stones/bronze, living in huts/caves, etc. The other gods/people probably had better technolo..wait, wasn't he supposed to be the only omnixx.x god?)

or simply, "atheists use their brains"

etc etc

A comical response because nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with the discussion on atheism whatsoever.

A sound write-up, though.

idnoble135: Mods, how did this ever make front page? I thought it is often edited for easier understanding. The work should have been numbered, this is not good enough. I didnt bother reading it. Didnt appeal to the eyes.

It is clear that you are one person in need of the advice in the OP.