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 Christianity Etc › Re: The Importance Of Tithes And Offerings Cannot Be Over Emphasized by DrummaBoy(m): 9:39pm On Nov 09, 2013 |
@ Ijele-Igbo, How will you reconcile tithing with this article below: “I CANNOT AFFORD TO BE A CHRISTIAN”Hope you could read it through. Let me have your response. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by DrummaBoy(m): 4:50pm On Nov 08, 2013 |
Image123: Response to what exactly, did you even watch the video? i guess not.I did. The message: you must honour God by obeying all his commandment (including tithing as stipulated in Malachi 3). Yes, he didnt mention tithing (yet) but would eventually as d title of d video shows. That is an adequate response: American theology jam American theology |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by DrummaBoy(m): 3:55pm On Nov 08, 2013 |
OLAADEGBU: The Two Tithing Systems: 2An adequate response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfeDi5E16P0 |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by DrummaBoy(m): 2:40pm On Nov 08, 2013 |
Image123: Your love of money is what keeps you twisting and turning in dishonesty. It is you and atheists that are on the same page on this, it baffles that you cannot see that.I have long understood that many an atheist are closer to God than many religious people: Jesus' ministry confirms that (read the parable of pharisee and sinner again Luke 18). |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by DrummaBoy(m): 11:16am On Nov 08, 2013*. Modified: 11:32am On Nov 08, 2013 |
Candour: Correction @ the bolded. DLBC will NEVER associate with Creflo as DLBC does not promote tithe the way its being done here. The OP is on his own mission and he's associating with whomever he will strictly on his own. He doesn't have DLBC's mandate as has been proved before on this forum so pls let's keep them apart.I do. Really, I get what Candour is saying. I was at the Deeper Life Church all through my service year. I chose their fellowship over and above the sometimes roudy NCCF because I felt I needy to be around some serious Christians. Yes, the church does not kick against tithing; but neither do they trumpet it in the manner the OP is doing it. Today, I still have many Deeper Life friends from that association. So, OLAADEGBU, who sent you? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Lets Rebuid The House Of God In Northern Nigeria by DrummaBoy(m): 11:12am On Nov 08, 2013 |
christemmbassey: i knew for a long time that bidam have sm issues, if u noticed, that's y most of his posts are incoherent, if it takes him smearing me to regain his sanity, i will bear it gladly like Jesus, we can't afford to loose him. Bidam, take ur time, throw as much mud n insultsas posible if it can return u back to ur senses, but what about tithe foothold ? God help u shaWell I must thank Bidam who reffered us to this thread from another one: Bidam: Talking about beneficiary of money frauds.Were you not the guy that cleverly used a demonic trick by ingeniously capitalizing on the the northern situation to defraud nairalanders of 1000 naira? who is fooling who here?Although the acerbic nature of the "referral" was totally uncalled for. If someone thinks Christians in the north need some help, is it totally out of place? To the pure all things are pure. It takes a froward person to think ill into an laudable idea that is originally from a Christlike thinking. When some will think of Charity, they would only think of buying Jets for their Pastors. It would do us a lot of good to be able to distinguish motives and become truly Christlike in our motives and action. For me, the idea Christembassey raised in the OP, is of God and very much like the one Paul was associated with in raising help for Jerusalem Christians that were under famine. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by DrummaBoy(m): 10:58am On Nov 08, 2013*. Modified: 2:31pm On Nov 08, 2013 |
Image123: yawn at the usual attempts to attack the messenger instead of dealing with the message. It is the same two faced you who would attack the deeper life if they do not associate with others. Deal with the message, not with Creflo or Deeper.The message on tithing is Fraud. Creflo Dollar has credibility issues (atleast in d light of the prosperity gospel he espouses). And the Deeper Life Church, will naturally not associate with him, except of course when it comes to tithing. So, we return to the words of the Atheist "When it comes to money, every man's religion is the same". The day the religion you practice does not make money its god, that day you have found the true Christ. That is why I reffered you to the words of Jesus where he quoted Isaiah: all religion are taught by men and upheld by money; so they are all the same. True Christianity transcends money and that is why true Christianity must say no to tithing. edited |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by DrummaBoy(m): 7:24pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
OLAADEGBU: The Two Tithing Systems:Do you have to descend so low as to use Creflo Dollar to lend credence to this fraudulent practice of tithing? Do you remember that on a good day the Deeper Life Church will not share fellowship with a Creflo Dollar; except, of course, in tithing. And, when you could not find anymore scriptures to twist, you resort to the Chief Prosperity Gospeller of America, Dollar, a man named after Mammon itself and who has remained true to his name, to justify tithing. You should look well in the mirror (of God's word) to see who is dishonoring God! 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men - Matthew 15 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Activating The Blessing - Winning Each Day Devotional by DrummaBoy(m): 5:15pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
@ Pastor Wole Soetan Nice write up. If you do not mind, I would like to engage you in some questions that may help you and your readers a great deal. Understand that NL religious section is open to all religious persuasions but one thing everyone of them must do when they come to place high sounding claims like you have just done here, is to back it up with scripture. I do not mean, cutting and pasting scriptures but making the scripture speak for itself. I want to know if COZA still believes in the same level of grace that your senior Pastor believes; that made him sleep with the young woman who alleged him some months ago. If you do, how do we reconcile such a grace with the this doctrine of "winning" that you have taught above? I am an not an obscure satanist, you may refer to my blog below to understand my mind in the things of Christ. I await your response. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Deception Of Malachi 3:10-11 "Devourer" And "Storehouse" EXPOSED by DrummaBoy(m): 4:49pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
Ododo Oro!: EMILO2STAY:He that has ears to hear, let him hear! 6 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 6:14pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Bidam: Hmmn..Pandora box don open.. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. - Isaiah 6 |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:35pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
You remember the above that I wrote dedicated to you, Bidam, sometimes this year. I hope you find the grace to read it and deliver yourself from modern day Judaism. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:34pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
I conclude this discuss (for now) with the topic itself: Modern Day Judaizers If any of us had lived in the time of Apostle Paul, there is likelihood we also would have opposed his teachings. That is why I think Peter said his teachings are difficult to understand. Take for example, the circumcision that he was so vehemently opposed to. God himself had given the ordinance of circumcision to Abraham before the coming of the law and had instructed that it was to last to all generations in Genesis 17: 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. But here was Paul saying that anyone who allowed himself to be circumcised had fallen from grace. How then are we to reconcile Paul teachings with the whole of scripture: First we must understand that God in his wisdom chose Paul as an apostle (maybe in replacement of Judas) to propagate this gospel. Also, there was nothing Paul preached that the apostles who had witnessed the Lamb in the flesh did not know. That they did not preach it is another issue. And lastly, anyone who witnessed Paul’s ministry, the grace on it, the signs and wonders, and the sheer fact that God was with this man could not but agree that what he was teaching was sound doctrine. Today we have a whole lot of folks who are still opposing Paul, long after he has left. I came across one Femi Aribisala who feels that Pauls writings are not scripture but mere letters. Paul himself had warned that in the last days men would no longer endure sound doctrine. The reformation of the sixteenth century gained it strength from the writing of Paul the apostle – so that in Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Roman Catholic Church was confronting Paul again. Everywhere institutional church is created, there is a head on collision with Paul’s writings. Why? Probably because Paul’s teaching were not suited for organized church but for every day Christian living. For example, Paul’s writing did not support tithing. And tithing is the only means of supporting organized church today. No where in all his writing did Paul ask anyone to pay tithe to a church or to himself. But modern day Judaizer would have us believe that tithing is an ordinance of God. When they say pay your tithe, Malachi 3: 8-10 is quoted: 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. If we assume the scripture quoted above was not addressed to Levites and Priest (though some of us contend it was) and actually take it as God’s word, how do we reconcile the above scripture with another already quoted above (Genesis 17) where God was saying that Circumcision was to be an eternal ordinance in Israel and anyone who doesn’t practice it would be cut off? The truth is that whether Malachi 3 is addressed to Levites or Israelites or Abraham does not matter; if the doctrine Paul preached made it clear that gentiles where not to be circumcised, it is easy to conclude that gentiles are not to pay tithe either. Now the tithe doctrine is even less arguable than circumcision even though both of them are pre-law and both of them were practiced by Abraham (By the way Abraham paid tithe only once). But tithing was never a subject for disputation in the time of Paul because most Jews of that time where not tithing. The tithe that God describes in Malachi, as well as other part of the Old Testament, was 10% of agricultural produce. And by the time of Jesus most Jews were not agriculturist so the tithe was not an issue. Even Jesus was never said to have tithed because Jesus was not a farmer but a carpenter. So Paul again finds himself contending modern day Judaizers who are bent on ensuring that redeemed gentiles pay tithes to established church institutions. Modern day Judaizer are also, always, dictating to their church members, the rules they must keep and not keep. Unfortunately the women folk, who have very little to say in church administration, are the ones that suffers the most. “You must not wear ear-rings”; “You must not wear trousers”; “You must not wear make up”; “You must not wear tight fitted clothing’s”. They could easily compare these rules and regulation to Colossians 2:20-22 to find out the scriptural basis of what they are doing. It does not end there. Modern day Judaizers have turned the church of God to their own by posting lists of things that make an individual a bona fide member of (their) church. Recently a prominent Pentecostal church, with a large mission base on Lagos-Ibadan express way announced to its members that anyone who doesn’t tithe would no longer enjoy the church support during wedding and other ceremonies. The core doctrine of modern day Judaizers is that church must regulate how its members live and behave: thus the need for the rules and regulations. If this is not done, church members will bring reproach to the organization or they will sin and loose their salvation. At the center of this thinking is ignorance of the doctrine of grace that Paul the apostle taught and lived. If this message is however shared with these people, they malign it and say people are being encouraged towards lawlessness. There are many ways to answer this but the best is to paint the picture of our Lord Himself. If Jesus, the owner of the Church, had such proprietary kind of mentality towards the church, he would not have left 11 unschooled fishermen to propagate his gospel after him. But the chief proponent of a gospel of grace that encourages freedom and trust in God, through the Holy Spirit, is Jesus Himself. He knew that days after his ascension the Holy Spirit will come and use mere, weak, infallible and untaught men to turn the world up side down for God. This is the sort of mentality the church should have: if men have been truly converted, the church should trust God to establish those men. The God that is able to save, is also able to keep safe: genuine believer cannot loose their salvation. This God is able to also justify, sanctify, and eventually glorify those he has saved. When the church takes up the duty that only God can do, they turn themselves into modern day Judaizers. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:33pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
My point in this piece is not to discuss what the gospel of grace is but to show that the gospel that Paul preached was not the ones the Judaistic Christians preached and it was a source of offence to these people, for which Paul suffered through out his ministry. Paul did not take it kindly with these people. Because in the bid to walk in love and discern the body of Christ, we are not to condemn other believers because they are weak (Romans 14), but the fact that Paul used the strongest terms possible against these people showed that these people were not Christians but the enemies of the gospel. In Galatians, Paul suggested that any one who wanted to circumcise others to be saved should not only circumcise himself but totally cut off his own manhood: Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. Paul talked about how some people came in to secretly spy on the liberty they enjoyed as Christians in Galatians 2 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. In Phillipians 3, Paul used the strongest word ever to describe the sect of the circumcision: dogs 1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Paul emphasized in Colosians 2 so many times the phrase “let no man…”; to drive home the point that people of the Judaistic religion must be resisted at all cost: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using In verse 18, the apostle leaves a word for those who, like today, are always coming up with a new revelation of heaven and hell. He says it is the outcome of their fleshly minds. In Titus 1, Paul says the mouth of these Judaizers should be stopped 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Paul contended these men to the end. I have an intimation that the thorn in the flesh God gave Paul was the opposition to the gospel he was going to be preaching and these opposition, though from many sources, came primarily from the Judaizers of his time. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:33pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Paul and the Judaizers Paul the apostle can only be described as a remarkable man when we realize that he confronted Judaism both in the world and in the church. Jesus had given a brief remark on the kind of suffering this man’s ministry was going to encounter when he was speaking to Ananias at Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15-16). From Paul’s own testimony, Paul was born a jew. He grew up and was discipled under the strictest form of Judaism – he was a Pharisee. He was taught by Gamaliel; a man of such profound knowledge of the Torah and who was held at the highest esteem by the Jewish leaders that a word from him got the release of Peter and John from the murderous grip of the Jews in Acts 4. So Paul was well taught. Paul, however, had an encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, as he was persecuting Christians with authority from the Jewish leaders. He was born-again, and scripture records that immediately he began to preach Jesus whom he had been persecuting. Paul’s account in Galatian 2 shows that sometimes between the period of his conversion and the time he visited Peter and James, Paul was on a retreat in the wilderness and their God revealed the gospel of grace to him. Jesus himself had preached bits and pieces of this gospel in his earthly ministry but because he was born under the law and had to be subject to the law so as to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for those of us who will subsequently come to have faith in Him, Jesus could not preach the gospel of grace (completely) as he would later reveal to Paul (this is the only way to explain why Paul’s message differed from Jesus’ without discussing the doctrine of dispensation). Jesus had however told the disciples that he could not teach them everything now but will reveal things to them bit by bit (John 14:26). The gospel of grace was part of the revelation that Peter got when he had the encounter with God on the top of a house subsequent to his meeting Cornelius in Acts 10. Though what Peter understood was that the gospel had been sent to the gentiles also and was not to be confined to Jews, alone. The fact that Peter’s ministry was limited to the Jews shows that he did not completely grasp the gospel of grace like Paul did and even if he did, he could not pay the price to preach it. But Paul paid that price. Why? Because God had given him the grace to do so (1 Corinthians 15:10). The gospel of grace as revealed to Paul was revolutionary. The core point of it was Justification by grace through faith (alone), Ephesians 2:8-9. The implication of this gospel meant that everything Moses gave as law was defunct and obsolete Galatians 3, 2Corinthians 3. There has been a change of law from the law of sin and death to the law of Spirit of Life, Hebrew 7:12; Romans 8:2. Rather than be led by law written of tablets of stones, the believer was now to be led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8:14. This gospel preached by Paul was against the Judaizers both in the Church and in the world. The latter part of the book of Acts gives an account of what Paul experienced in the hands of worldly Judaizers. But if his contention was with those in the world alone, it would have been a small matter. But Paul also had to contend with Judaizers in the church. The main object of contention with the Judaizers of Paul’s time was the question of whether gentile believers were to be circumcised or not. In Acts 15:2 it is recorded that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with these group of people. The matter was taken to the Jerusalem church and the verdict read: 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. The case seem to have closed there, not until again we see Paul in Galatians 2 saying that he had to withstand Peter to the face because he was acting hypocritical. What was the matter? Some Judaistic Christians had come from James, and Peter was now beginning to withdraw from the gentiles Christians who prior to those people’s coming, he had been eating with them. Following this rebuke, Paul laid down the eternal foundations upon which the gospel of grace is founded on in the book of Galatians: [b]1. There is only one gospel: the Gospel of Grace, any other is an accursed thing. And anyone who preaches such is accursed. Galatian 1:8,9 2. Justification is by faith(Galatians 3:6-7) and the subsequent life that the believer lives must be lived by faith, Galatians 2:20. Nothing in the law could secure a man’s salvation, v.21. 3. To start in faith and then to think you can secure your salvation by doing anything else in addition to it is foolishness. Galatians 3:1-3 4. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 (including the curse of not tithing in Malachi 3) and the blessing of Abraham comes to the believer by faith and not works, v.14 5. The purpose of the law was to reveal what sin is and the utter sinfulness of man that tries to keep it, and thus our need of a savior. Galatians 3:19-24 6. The law is weak and beggarly. Galatians 4: 8-9 7. God calls the believer to stand in liberty and not bondage to the law. Galatians 5:1 8. Those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 9. Christ fulfilled the law and those of us who obey the law of love, have fulfilled the law also; for all the law is fulfilled in the law of love. Galatians 5:14 10. The call on all believers is not to keep any aspect of the law but to be led by the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit; for when we do this we are obliged to keep the law. Galatians 5:22-23 An in depth study of Galatians will reveal much more than these things enumerated above.[/b] |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:32pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
UNVEILLING MODERN DAY JUDAIZERS Jesus and the Judaizers A cursory study through the New Testament will show that the gospel of Jesus Christ had enemies from its inception. First century Palestine was a deeply religious one and the world Jesus was born into had some individuals who had constituted themselves as religious authorities: they were the Pharisees and Sadducees – sometimes seen as teachers and scribes. The gospel Jesus preached stood in stark contrast to that which the religious leaders of his days taught. While Jesus preached a message of inner renewal and sanctification, these men emphasized externalities. While Jesus encouraged frugality and faithfulness with money, the Pharisee and Sadducees were said to love money and encouraged people to give money to the synagogue over and above taking care of their families. While Jesus encouraged liberty amongst his followers, these people were known to tie up heaven burden on people that they could not carry themselves. While Jesus taught his disciples about the kingdom to come, these men knew nothing but earthly things. While Jesus taught with authority and in the power of the Holy Ghost, these men were clouds without rain. It is important to note that Jesus did not have kind words for these men. Hear him in Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. For those who make a case for not criticizing men of God, they should hear what Jesus said of religious leaders of his day above. This position that Jesus took did not go without a price. The religious leaders saw to it that Jesus was killed. In fact as early as Mark 3, the Pharisees were already planning to kill Jesus: 6. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him. They succeded at it eventually and the Lord of glory was crucified. When Paul discussed Jesus death in 1 Corinthians 2, he called those who crucified Jesus “princes of this world”. 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory The phrase “princes of this world” could be interpreted “rulers of this world” – the political, religious and demonic rulers of the world. The princes of this world will include Pilate, Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and the devil himself. In their morbid jealousy and hatred, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had teamed up with satan to bring about his demonic work. We all know now that God was using all this to birth his eternal purpose on earth in sending a savior to mankind to redeem us from our sins. But because the religious leaders of that time were so demonic compliant, they were ready tools in the hands of the devil. I introduced this piece with Jesus’ experience with the Judaizers of his time so that I can proceed into what Paul himself experienced with Judaizer of his own time before finally discuss the Judaizers of our time. We will see that except in very minor details, the judaistic religion has not changed since the days of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. TBC |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:29pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Bidam:Quintessential Bidam. Always avoiding the issues. Bidam:So, the additional scriptures I have added cannot be attended to? Bidam:1. Paul was circumcized because he was born a Jew, like every other Jew in the land. And you yourself gave the reason he circumcized Timothy: to please the Jews and not because he was keeping the laws of Torah as a born again Christian. Bidam:That was just an addendum to help you comprehend the way and manner the new Christian church lived; if you are not interested in Barnabas and the scripture quoted on him, you are not interested in the whole counsel of God has depicted in the New Testament. You will rather remain with a parochial view, I assume. Bidam:Act 24:17 reads "Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings." Did it mention tithe? Bidam:I know what you mean by reading the book of Act. It is still your penchant for twisting scripture that is moving you in that direction. You want me to believe that Paul lived as a Jew because he returned to Jerusalem and accepted the advice of James to go and make some sacrifices. We see in Acts 21 that the whole process was to please the Jews again: what informed his circumcising Timothy. And we know that Paul was not being hypocritical here: he was being everything to all men so as to save some (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul's testimony to the Jews in Acts 21 was God's last warning to them to receive the New Covenant in His Son Jesus. When they refused, God moved in. Providentially God sent Titus to destroy Jerusalem in AD70, so that no levithical sacrifices, talkless of tithing, could be performed anymore. Unfortunately, we have today, Modern Day Judaizers, who are hell bent on restoring the Jewish religion; not to the temple now but to the church. God's wrath is upon you! 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 4:34pm On Nov 05, 2013*. Modified: 4:54pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Bidam: And why should i? You quoted and manipulated a scripture out of context,f[b]orgeting the fact that Apostle Paul was schooled in judaism, a chronic tither and a pharisee of the pharisees[/b].If that is what Paul meant,then am afraid the scripture is also applicable to him.In case you did not understand the Phillipians 3 scriptures that described the circumcision group as dogs, refer to this one: 11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, [size=16pt]I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/size] 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21[b] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.[/b]And this one: 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5[b] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ[/b],Bidam, Can we with all authority conclude that Paul remained a Pharisee all his life from the above scriputures? As a bible teacher can you tell us what these scriptures are saying?[/size] Other translations of Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, “Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions? (NLT) When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? (NIV) But when I saw that they were not fnstraightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? (NASB) But when I saw that they do not walk straightforwardly, according to the truth of the glad tidings, I said to Peter before all, If *thou*, being a Jew, livest as the nations and not as the Jews, how dost thou compel the nations to Judaize? (DBY) These scripture above tell me that Paul rebuked Peter for hypocrisy. That Peter, Paul and other disciples like themselves, who were Jews, after their coming to faith in Christ and comprehending the doctrine of grace, no longer kept the law. They did not tithe, keep sabath and they felt free to associate and eat with gentiles. When Peter saw those dogs (the circumcision) he withdrew and gave the impression he was living like a Jew. Paul rebuked that hypocrisy and made it clear that though they were Jews, they lived like gentiles. One last point: Barnabas is recorded in scripture to be a levite. Is it written anywhere that he collected tithes from the disciples or that anyone paid tithes to him. This could not happen because like it was mentioned in Galatians 2, Baranabas no longer lived like a Jew and could not collect tithes. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.Please note that Baranabas did not collect tithes from anyone. Rather, he sold his land and gave the monies to the disciples, in keeping with the grace of giving God had given the disciples in those days, through free will giving, and not legalized tithing or firstfruits. If indeed the apostles, though Jews, still lived like Jews or pharisees, Barnabas would have collected tithes and not give out a free will offering. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Deception Of Malachi 3:10-11 "Devourer" And "Storehouse" EXPOSED by DrummaBoy(m): 4:08pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
I do not know how many of you guys saw this documentary on Sign Fireman by one Seyi. This is the reason for all the [size=20pt]tithes[/size] doctrine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hQoQIMqJoQ |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Deception Of Malachi 3:10-11 "Devourer" And "Storehouse" EXPOSED by DrummaBoy(m): 10:09pm On Nov 04, 2013*. Modified: 4:01pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
When Pastor Kun accuses Bidam of being a scripture twister, I sometimes think he way too acerbic but with the comments above, I wish to state that Kun is a 100% right. The Abrahamic Covenant which was enacted in Genesis 17 goes forth: (permit me to quote the key verses): 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,Yes, God made a covenant with Abraham and this covenant was unique in that it was marked with CIRCUMCISION!. It was this circumcision that became the mark confidence of the Jews which the NT, especially through the ministry of Paul, made nought of: 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. - Galatians 5I request my readers to note verse 6: neither circumcision nor uncircumcision that avail but rather love. The covenant God had with Abraham was ratified on man's part with circumcision. The covenant God has with us today is ratified by faith that is working through love. That is the difference between Abraham's covenant and the New Covenant that has come to us through the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The NT covenant as was spoken by Jeremiah is repeated in the new as: 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrew 8This covenant is ratified by the spiritual circumcision on our hearts and not a physical one. Thus we see the marked difference between these two covenants. The faith of Abraham which we are called to imitate as sons of Abraham is the faith he displayed long before the covenant was enacted (Genesis 15:6). So that Paul shows us that Abraham can now be the father of faith to both those who are circumcised and those who are not. The core truth of the NT is that the covenant God has enacted with Christian today is all new and has never before been practised. O, yes, we saw glimmers of it through the faith of Abraham in Genesis 15; even through law of Moses; but it is abundantly clear that this covenant is very new and had never been revealed to people of the past. So, Christians have come into an all new relationship with God, whose tenets of doctrine and practice is clearly enumerated in the New Testament and no where else. The covenant shows that the marks of other covenants like circumcision, sabath honoring, tithing, etc, are not elements of this New Covenant we have today. The mark of the New Covenant is Love: love for God and for humanity. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.And as for this scripture which Bidam cunningly put in to justify his Abrahamic covenant: 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.Please Bidam should be reminded that that particular Paul's discuss in that chapter started from verse 6 not verse 16. Verse 6 and following said: 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; t[b]hat we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/b] 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.Please, let us note how many times faith is mentioned in this chapter. The context in which Paul discussed Abraham's covenant not being nullified was in the context of contrasting works of the law with faith in God. Paul was showing us that there was an element that was evident in Abraham's covenant with God and that was FAITH and not works of the law. Paul was not saying, as Bidam would eroneously have us believe, that the Chrisitan covenant is the same as the Abrahamic Gen 17 covenant. What Paul is saying that the same way Abraham came into his covenant with God by faith, so also are we to come into our covenant (which is different from Abraham's) by faith too. Like I said in the beginning, the mark difference btw the Abrahamic covenant and the NT covenant is CIRCUMCISION. But the similarity btw them is FAITH. It is that aspect of faith we share with Abraham and nothing else. If not, Paul never have argued intensely against circumcision like he did. And the same arguments that put circumcision to nought are the same to put tithing to pieces. I pray with this few points of mine, Bidam will cease in this inglorious ministry of twisting scriptures. 4 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Conditions That Can Make Me Reconvert To Christianity And Belief In God by DrummaBoy(m): 3:50pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: i was saying that am converting to christianity only if the above conditions are reached.Ok. I get it. Now, I am not promising anything. I am not promising that I can explain God to you. I believe I met the person of Jesus Christ and received Him into my heart some 15 yrs ago. It has been 15 years of up and down, and sometimes I think if I have submitted to forces or experiences along the way, I too could have become an atheist but somehow, my faith in God has remained. I am not too sure of the state of my faith in church people though. I will begin with your first condition: 1. I want to know GodA favourite verse in scripture answer this: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent That is the aim of Jesus Christ's coming: to reveal God to men. And when you know him, you have eternal life. It is as simple as that. Now you have given some conditions for knowing Him. That he must respond to your five senses. I think God can do that. But why don't we open up the matter and not constrain ourselves to the five senses alone. God wants to reveal Himself to you; could it be possible that he has His own condition too? So permit it to be God revealing himself to you in the way He wants and I am sure he would reach you in the way you want eventually. The process of knowing God is truly profound and I believe it will start with both of us discussing the person of God together. Back and forth. Let us replay life experiences and things we have learnt from them. I am not too vast with atheistic arguments and I would not argue with you. If you attack me, I may just withdraw and find something else to do. But I will always respond to anyone who want to know God in sincerity. Seeing that you have been a Christian before, apparently we can share from a common basis. So, Folykaze, how do we start? Let me allow you speak in response to this and we will see how it plays on. For now, we are on point 1, remember? Cheers. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Conditions That Can Make Me Reconvert To Christianity And Belief In God by DrummaBoy(m): 3:26pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: Go for this only lie in the condition tie.I didn't get the deal. Please explain the bolded in clearer English. Mine is limited... |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Conditions That Can Make Me Reconvert To Christianity And Belief In God by DrummaBoy(m): 3:12pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: lol. If I convert to christian, it only to kick CAN president balls.If I had my way, I also will want to kick CAN's President's balls. That guy is doing more harm to the Christian name than the Devil. Lol!! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Conditions That Can Make Me Reconvert To Christianity And Belief In God by DrummaBoy(m): 3:03pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: Since I disclosed my disbelief in God stance, many ranging from neighbours, to friends and lastly family have been kicking against me. I had to speak up my mind because I cant live as person who am not and cant hide forever. On the long run, many have preached and shared the gospel with me. Some were informing me how God love me. Well dont wanna push hard so here are conditions that can make me belief in the existence of God and/or make me convert back to christianity.You are closer to your redemption than you know it. Hopefully, by the time you return to the Christian fold, God shall be using you to help the Church attain that new level He wants bring us into. Your adventure in atheism is for a purpose: I still think atheist are closer to God than many a Christian. That singular fact of truth in the inward part that informs many atheistic profession will lead you to God, eventually. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Yes, its true, Tithe Works by DrummaBoy(m): 2:37pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
christemmbassey: bros where u get this kain verse? U tin say na every verse u go dey quote any how any how, D'boy, i know say u no like we pastors o, imagine u quoting NT for us, ok, is it bad 4 me to recoup even though i no invest shi shi n d real investors wait for donkey yrs with fasting n prayer for opening of windows dat will nt open. I tot u're my bros, now, i know better, bros no dey quote this kind verse again o, otherwise! U know na- we go make dat verse disapper for ya bible by fire by force. Cheers.When I saw this post, I no fit laugh finish! Na so we see am O!! truthislight: Such verses that Drummer B quoted are 'nerver' quoted in the get rich churches of today o, infact, it is as though such kind verses is none existence.O men, na wa these guys wey dey preach dey collect tithe O. Christembassey, shey we no go join the fray? Money dey inside this thing O. See the jeeps wey Chris Oyaks alone dey cruise! Well if una one suffer, una dey una side O. Tithe dey Work O!! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 2:17pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
Zikky: [size=16pt]God's tithe cannot be 10% of whateva. this is the basis for prosti.tutes paying 10% of their income from doing 'wateva', the same basis for robbers and yahoo boys (& girls) paying 10% of their takings, same basis for bidam, ola & others paying 10% of their income from 'wateva, dependants pay 10% of their gift or allowances (a.k.a. pocket money), even corrupt politicians pay 10% as tithe. and you see all sort of tithe calculations e.g. 10% of salary after PAYE & other statutory deductions, 10% of gross salary, 10% of net salary after deducting all deductibles  so who is truly paying God's tithe? the answer is..... nobody. The only group/category of people that pays something resembling God's tithe are people like my man, Joagbaje. The man dey pay 'tithe of tithes' though he is still not paying God's tithe.[/size]This post is enlarged for all to see; just in case they missed it the first time Zikky posted it. A million likes for this post! 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 2:09pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
Bidam:You may refer to my edited posts. Apologies for the errors. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 8:24am On Nov 01, 2013*. Modified: 2:07pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
Bidam: Alot better you say?Lol.Even atheistsBTW Bidam are U a Jew? Is ur Pastor a Levite? U have no basis for paying tithes today neither does ur pastor have a reason to collect tithes. Redeemed gentiles were never reffered to as dogs. U know whom Jesus was speaking to in dat scripture. The people the NT reffered to a dogs are judaizer 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision (or the cirumcizers). - Phillipians 3:2 The same way that scripture should apply to tithers and those who are bent on binding people to tithe their income; beware of dogs: bewares of pro-tithers! I hope you grabbed that! Edited |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 8:04am On Nov 01, 2013*. Modified: 2:02pm On Nov 01, 2013 |
Bidam: Alot better you say?Lol.Even atheistsFirst Jesus was a pharisee. Now Jesus was a Jew. The firstrule in integrity is for a man to stand by his words. Even atheist do better. Don't U think? Edited |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Must One Come Out For Alter Call To Have His Sins Forgiven? by DrummaBoy(m): 9:12pm On Oct 31, 2013 |
sharubutu: There was a mild drama during last Sunday service between a young man sitting next to me and an usher during alter call. The pastor first asked those willing to give their lives to Christ to place their right on their chest and pray the confession prayer after him, which the young man did. Thereafter, he asked everyone who prayed the prayer to take another step and come towards the alter. At that point, one of the ushers who was already moving around during the first prayer beckoned on the young man to come out, but he refused probably out of shame I guess. Now, my question is this. Considering the number of persons that will want to give their lives to Christ but can't because of the shame of being seen by hundreds and sometimes thousands of people, is it really compulsory that one must come out towards the alter to have his/her sins forgiven? Moreover, are there bible references to back such up?There is no account of anyone, responding to the gospel of Jesus Christ, standing up and going to a minister in the NT. This contraption called an altar call was formed by modern Christianity, just like many other practices in the church today, and was popularized by the ministry D L Moody and Billy Graham. In those days some notable men of God opposed this action but it has become the norm today; to the extent that if you do not answer an altar call today, you are not considered to be saved. When I committed my life to Jesus, it was in a private room with the help of a brother and not in the open. In fact, with the benefit of insight, I believe that privacy helped me concentrate better on the inner intercourse between me and God, which many people who answer altar calls are denied. I remember to this day, how I was dreading any of my friends would come in any moment into that room and see me “giving my life”. But when God had concluded the work, I, without knowing any scripture about confessing Christ before men, went everywhere telling people I was now saved. I am listening to series of messages by R B Thieme Jnr, a minister I know who doesn’t support altar calling. At a point he made some calls for people to come to Christ. But he insisted that every man should make his decision in the privacy of his heart. That every man should not be denied this privacy. If God truly touches a man’s heart, he will come eventually and confess him. Joseph of Arimathea was a secret disciple of Jesus. But when Christ died, he came out publicly, demanded for his body and had our Lord buried in his own tomb. I cannot tell how many people I know who heed these altar calls and come out unchanged. Too many of them. The truth again is that altar call has not NT basis; it may have been used by God at a time but it has outlived its purpose. Let the gospel be preached and allow men to make their decisions by their own volition. This is why religion has deteriorated to the point it has: you are told how to give your life to Christ; how to dress; how to tithe; who to marry; so that Christians cannot thinks anymore. They do not know the Holy Spirit that leads them. Everything must be dictated by a minister. OP, altar call is not compulsory. In fact, it can be a distraction to meeting the true Christ! 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 9:04pm On Oct 31, 2013 |
For those who think we war as in the flesh, I am making the effort to state why I stopped tithing. Among many other reasons, and after the dust has settled on my conviction on tithing, this is the word the Lord gave me on tithing. And to show how effective it is, God gave me the wonderful privilege of sharing the meat of it on radio some two months ago in the city of Ibadan. Raising up a healthy debates among churches wether Christians ought to pay or not pay their tithes.That earned me a sack from being a church worker in my local assembly and has pitched me in dis favour with my church leaders. But I am not at all deterred. For those who care to read, this is taken from my blog www.yesufu..com. This, my dear friends is the reason, I will never tithe again in this life: “I CANNOT AFFORD TO BE A CHRISTIAN” |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Yes, its true, Tithe Works by DrummaBoy(m): 8:48pm On Oct 31, 2013 |
Walahi, Tithes Work In fact Jesus from the tribe of the Judah was a tithe collector! The apostles of the Lamb lived off tithes, had mansions to live, drove around in Jets and limousines, etc. So, our Pastors and Bishops must feed fat on tithes and offering. In fact the bible lends credence to all of these: [size=16pt] 9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13 Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day - 1 Corinthians 4.[/size] The gospel today is get rich or die trying all in the name of tithe collecting!!! 2 Likes |
after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
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