₦airaland Forum

I am restraining myself from asking how old is the OP.

But since there is liberty to open threads we may indulge such ignorance or, as in this case, try to enlighten it.

I do not call myself an anti--tithers ; if however, I am called that, I do not resist it. While there are many issues raised by the OP, i will like to respond to the issue of age in Christian ministry and why one shouldnt disparage older folks in ministry. I agree and in most of my discuss I try not to insult both old or young. But...

Tithing as we have it today is false doctrine and the bible does not have kind words for people who propagate it. At worst, scriptures call them 'accursed', regardless of age.

OP, the gospel didn't start with Adeboye, Oyedepo, Hagin, Osteen, Olukoya, etc. It started some 2000 yrs ago. Have you heard of Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Martyn Lloyd Jones, Wesley, Whitefield, etc? Google and find out what they preached. It is totally alien to what we hear today.

Gospel isn't age; its TRUTH!

That's exactly the point, Goshen, is the OP ready to learn or is this thread another means to cast aspersion on those who do no tithe.

Alwaystrue: Just by simply reading in context will have shown you the answer:

2 Peter 3:14-17 ESV
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of LAWLESS people and lose your own stability.

Peter was simply saying we should be careful of people who twist Paul's letters on grace to mean lawlessness to their own destruction.

An additional response to this post:

If anyone understands Paul's writings and have not twisted them, such a persom will not advocate tithing.

Paul gospel was steeped in the doctrine of grace. An enemy of this grace gospel are doctrines that confuse grace with law. In his time it was circumcision; in our time it is tithing.

The advocates of tithing feel circumcision cannot be compared with tithing. The point they make is that God still circumcises us but in the heart. But that argument is weak in the sense that the law that said people should tithe was made so that religious leaders and the weak could be provided for. Today, there is no law of such nature. THE SAME GOD THAT CAN CIRCUMCISE THE HEART OF STONE AND MAKE IT A HEART OF FLESH, IS ALSO ABLE TO MOVE CHRISTIAN IN THE HEART TO GIVE VIA A FREE WILL OFFERING OR GRACE GIVING WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A LEGALISTIC LAW ON TITHING.

Again, the people who are most guilty of twisting Paul's writings are those who advocate tithing today!

Alwaystrue: Just by simply reading in context will have shown you the answer:

2 Peter 3:14-17 ESV
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of LAWLESS people and lose your own stability.

Peter was simply saying we should be careful of people who twist Paul's letters on grace to mean lawlessness to their own destruction.

I agree. Anyone who uses the grace of God as license should be accursed!

But, are there any more scriptures twisted for gain than the ones folks used to advocate tithing? How do we come to a thread like this and forget scriptures twisted to the advocates' destruction like Malachi 3 and Matthew 23:23?

Those are the scriptures TWISTED for GAIN.

'Touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm'

A scripture used to justify the fact that pastors, regardless of how thieving they are, must not be criticized. They forget that that scriptures, found in Psalms, refers to the whole people of Israel. Thus, in application today, it must be the whole church and not just a privileged few.

Processor01: To be frank, there has been so much debate on here about tithing and while I have completely stopped tithing I still find it hard to fit into churches that still practice this.

I was wondering if others could share a list of churches that do not preach tithing.

Waiting for the likes of Drummaboy, Goshen, Pastor Kun, Candour and all others.

GOD BLESS

My sincere apologies to the OP for responding to this post late.

When I stopped tithing March this year, I had a similar challenge. I felt defrauded all these years and didn't want to associate with any tithe collecting church.

Those derogated as anti tithers on this forum were the ones who encouraged me to continue in that church in spite of. And I thank God I did bc I am helping others comprehend the tithe matter too.

Last weekend I attended a retreat in Lagos by Crown Bible Church. They do not preach tithes. Small church but doing great things for God.

I understand Church of Christ also do not preach tithes.

But I think it doesn't matter whether a church preaches tithes or does not; we can remain there as long as we are not thrown out or God has not specifically led us else where.

The primary error of tithe teaching is that it is fundamental to these churches. We cannot join in this error by making anti tithe fundamental also and then leave tithe churches.

Hope this helps...

I would have wished that Goshen put the whole teaching in two or three posts @ the most. This piecemeal presentations will only allow gainsayers to display their legendary ignorance.

That said. There is nothing new about the devourer God is speaking of in Malachi; its simply an extension of the curses he had spoken about if Israel breaks His laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The fact that curses and devourers are mentioned at all in this passage shows that this scripture is speaking to Jews under a law, which if broken will come under a curse and a devourer; not Christian. If there is a spiritual devourer at all, they are the fact that Pentecostal teachers know little and their followers know nothing. There is no passage in the NT that teaches Christians are cursed or can be cursed. Rather, we are delivered from the curse of the law. And are blessed, Eph 1:3.

The fact that tithing is a popular doctrine doesnt make it true: Broad is the way that leads to destruction.

'Nouph said.

Pastor Kun: @Candour/drummaboy
I would like to suggest that you stop giving that satanic attention seeker audience. It is not just worth it.

Ok Boss.

I wanted to understand his train of thoughts but apparently he has none. No theology, no priority; nothing.

Abegi, make I find beta thing do with time jare!

Alfa Seltzer: You got it wrong.

I like him. I like him like a king likes a court jester. I like him like a psychiatrist likes a patient.

Answer the question. Why are your priorities different from his?

The reason I put in effort at discussing doctrines on NL is because I beleive the church's priority should approximate to Christ's. For every true Christian that is our aim.

Are there some priorities of Jesus you know of that we are not following? If so, how much of them are U following yourself?

Alfa Seltzer: In your opinion.

What sort of gospel is this that gives you an erect-ion (viagra) alone? So after that what else do U have? What hope do you have beyond this life with Satan?

Alfa Seltzer: He makes sure I don't need Viagra.

forgive the language but this gospel is a hopeless gospel

Alfa Seltzer: Got himself nailed alive on a log of wood with thieves? That's the great thing he did for you? SMH.

What has Satan done for you, sir?

Alfa Seltzer: I can assure you that they have tried.

Lol!

Now Alfa does Satan have a theology? Does he have a gospel? Before U ask me, I refer to my blog below for a glimpse at the gospel of Jesus Christ.

HumbledbYGrace: lol, I laughed at his quote. That's alfa for you....

He is very evil and uses beauty to get the younger generation. But I see girls in trouble that guys

abi O. Mod's should do something to ban that chap before he satanizes people around here. Nairaland sha!

^Welcome back Boomark

Chibuebem: @ your last sentence: I thought faith works sir. No, I KNOW faith works. Faith in Jesus works.

When the bible said the Just Shall Live by Faith it meant serving God in season and out of season. The faith that you have been sold a lie to believe always works is the faith propagated by the Word of Faith movement and Kenneth Hagin. The bible doesn't teach that kind of faith.

The three Hebrew children displayed faith when they said whether God delivers them OR NOT they will not bow to the image.

Hebrew 11 defines faith as the substance of thing HOPED for, the evidence of thing NOT SEEN. What in that verse says faith always works?

The first thing that faith did for the fathers according to Hebrew 11 was to give them a good report; why is that all we see in the Word of Faith movement is evil report?

The faith of the patriarchs helped them defeat kingdoms but it also helped them face swords and be killed. Read your bible, my friend.

Our faith anchors on GOD not 'ALWAYS WORKS'

Tgirl4real: Yes o... He goes to n fro the earth seeking whom to devour.

How are u Sir?

Happy Sunday.

I dey O

I dey kampe, even pass Obasanjo!

Lol!!

Rejoice5000: By special grace of God am a banker, and the more i pay my tithe the more i get promoted.u know what that means more money (salary) so i won't stop! it helps me alot.

This is the biggest lie pro-tithers propagate: IT WORKS!

Below are a number of things that work also, does it mean they are scriptural?

1. Animism: People still carry 'ebo' and such like today and it works for them

2. There are Imams who say prayers and mix concotions for people and it works for them.

3. Eastern Religions, Buddhism and Hinduism have adherents today bc those things work for people.

4. Many still worship gods of trees and sun and cows and pythons bc they work for them.

5. Many in white garment churches are bound to their prophets and prophettesses bc the prayers and incantations they make work.

We do not serve Jesus bc one thing or another works for us: we serve Christ in faith, whether it works or not.

temilexis: I am so highly disappointed that the writer did not come up with any valuable details over his claims on why tithes are not necessary. I would have been very happy if you elaborated much on reasons why we should not give our one tenth.

check www.tithing101.com and you will find an elaborate teaching on tithing there

Tgirl4real: Of course, he is visible today.

That is correct sister.

And appears a lot on pulpits these days.

Its funny that Alfa only saw what he wanted to see about this quote on Satan. Did U also see the last line that he is very evil too?

OLAADEGBU: It was Voltaire, a skeptic that said:

"When it comes to money, everyone is of the same religion."

I think this explains the madness at which these anti tithers are uniting together to fight a common foe, Tithes. It takes the grace of God to do the will of God.

That quote by Voltaire indicts tithe collectors more.

It is simply saying that when money matters arise, even Christians are ready to behave like unbelievers to get it. 'Get money or die trying' is the attitude here.

Is it possible that OLAADEGBU and other tithe advocates on this thread will behave like Jesus whose attitude to money was so non challant he made a theif his treasurer? Can your churches run without tithes and offering? Apparently no! And your master ran ministry without them.

Read Voltaire again: HE INDICTS YOU!!!

SATAN:

Satan remains the most intelligent and spectacularly beautiful creature in the universe. The traditional portrayal of the devil with red skin, narrow evil eyes, and forked tail is pure fiction. Neither is Satan the sinister beast depicted in art and literature. Were he visible, men would undoubtedly be awed by his glamour, Charmed by his brilliance, captivated by his personality. He remains the most impressive of all creatures (Ezekeil 28:13). Nevertheless, he is absolute evil - R. B. Thieme Jnr, in his book The Angelic Conflict.

This is the very reason Christians must beware of whom they listen to. I see too many ministers who fit this description of Satan in the media ministering a so called gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul the apostles rightly described these ministers and Satan in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15, 'And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works'.

Pastor Kun: Pathological liar + chronic tithe collector, why don't you mention one single testimony and let's review it.

Kun

I have no doubt he has testimonies. The problem with those testimonies is that it is to the Glory of tithing and not to the glory of God's grace. Paul calls this boasting; attributing to our effort the blessings of life and not to God and the grace he freely gives: It is Idolatry!

^God bless you Miwerds. So let us all get down, study them!

Mark Miwerds: OLAADEGBU, Image123 and Bidam's nemesis.

The reason some of us can 'siddon look' this thread and say little.

And Candour too! Indeed Image is a comedian. In fact he is Baba Suwe.

I think these guys should give up; the argument against this tithing position is way too much: scriptural or otherwise.

What led me to discovering the error of tithing was a message I preached late last year titled 'The Anointing for the End Times'. I argued in it that there are two messages today in Christ body: the gospel and another gospel. Both of them have anointings backing them: the Holy Spirit and other spirits, resp.

What Bidam referred to as the working of God today, that promotes mostly a health and wealth gospel, is actually propelled by another spirit other than the Holy Spirit. This spirit, among other things, is imparting a covetous disposition in ministers. This is what we see in the practise of tithing and the doctrines that promote it.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever more. If we cannot find one account of Christians tithing in the NT then tithing at best is not commanded for us and at worst not obligatory.

Our fears should go beyond just the fraud of tithing but to the other doctrines and practises of demons that this covetous spirit is likely to bring in future.

Russell Kelly offered a sound rebuttal to that R C Sproul's article OLAADEGBU loves to bandy around on this forum.

Apart from the fact that there are over 500 books discarded as not inspired by the fathers compiling the scripture books, Dadache is one of them. When I have access to a better system, I will upload Dr Kelly rebuttal of Sproul's book of Dadache which is the only record they have that Christians tithed and not scriptures.

Mark Miwerds: Drumma, it will take a little while, but I will type them out

Thank you Mark.

Mark Miwerds: https://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/63/75/a6/6375a62b5a6adf7e5bdce2e1b88a2c4d.jpg

Read how the clergy of the Catholic institution is shown why they are not authorized to receive tithes. Again, this was written in 1703 by a Baptist Minister.

The Baptist are the leading Tithe Collectors today. I hear of a man of an Aglican church who would not be buried till records of his tithes and other church dues were up to date. If not his children will pay up before the burial. Like Kun said, even the Catholics don't emphasise tithes anymore. What a shame.

Mark, can we get the verbatim of those pages U put up, I cannot read from a phone screen.

Tgirl4real: Educate me please.

One other thing, and probably the last thing I will be saying on this thread, the grace convention offered a balanced understanding of the gospel of grace. Candour's paper on 'Grace is not Licence' shed great light on that matter: https://www.nairaland.com/1416947/welcome-e-grace-convention-2013/11#17803555

Maybe this sort of thread will not have been opened if Demi and Ayoku had presented their papers. I use this medium to call on the duo to publish their papers on that thread. And we would all do ourselves some good if we return to that convention thread to study the grace subject some more.

Suffiet to say that the gospel of grace is not proclaimed enough on our pulpits for if it was, there would be less of the doctrines of demons that pervade Christendom today.

Grace Convention thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1416947/welcome-e-grace-convention-2013/1#17754058