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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 6:11pm On Sep 05, 2014

trustman and BabaGnoni,

we must work on concluding this project.

While updating the links to the topics on page 0, I noticed there were 8 pages btw F12 and F13. Who do we blame for this: Candour and mbaemeka or the Catholics. Lol.

Ok. Enough recess...

Christianity Etc › Re: Christian Association Of Nigeria Agenda That Must Not Fly by DrummaBoy(m): 7:15pm On Aug 30, 2014

Well written.

Please, OP, employ paragraphs, etc, it will help reading.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 6:29pm On Aug 30, 2014*

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F13: MERCHANDIZING THE GOSPEL[/size]
[size=14pt]
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

NIV: Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God - 2 Corinthians 2:17

Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
[/size]
One reality that faithful ministers of Christ keep at the back of their minds is the enormous influence their words can make on the minds of their hearers. Therefore they use every opportunity to channel this influence to build up the flock spiritually. God's people trust their Pastors and will obey them most of the time. It's a sad commentary on gospel preaching that some men take advantage of this trust to reap the flock of Christ off financially. To be honest, this sort of thing can be found in virtually all religious gathering but in the Word of Faith movement, it is the norm. The proponent of WoF are leading figures in merchandizing the gospel.

A merchandize is a commodity for sale. What WoF adherents do is to sell gospel truth in a perverted form for money. At the centre of the Word of Faith doctrine is the understanding that God is willing to bless Christians. To access this blessings, there are thing to do. They include but not limited to:

1. Tithing: 10% of income.

2. Paying a firstfruit: January salary.

3. Giving: Freewill giving, blessing the clergy, making pledges and redeeming them, Seed sowing, etc.

4. Holy living: which in many cases is least emphasized.

The Word of Faith gospel does not recognize a dispensational change in scriptures. The words of Moses, for them, carries as much weight as that of Paul, if not more. Incidentally, it is the Old Testament that lays emphasis on obedience being the means of blessing. These scriptures, therefore, become the central texts of WoF. WoF rejects, or belitles, a concept of a blessed Christian who does not need to do things to add to the blessings he already has in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).

If Moses is preached with a Christian heart, the gospel may still not be merchandized (this is my observation of the Deeper Life church). But what has befallen Christian ministry is that greedy men have come into the flock, to preach a false gospel, with the chief aim of profiting from it. Nothing else.

When I was about seven, I was in the living room watching the TV with my parent. My Catholic mother drew my attention to a man preaching in white flowing "agbada". It was Archbishop Benson Idhahosa. My mother said something to this effect: a true minister of God should not display such ostentatious wealth. Those words never left me. So that when I came to know Jesus at 21 and entered the first non Catholic assembly, a pentecostal one, those words protected me from the hundreds of prosperity gospellers that came to our church.

When the Master of the church had no where to lay his head; when his apostles went hungry in the name of ministry and when Jesus has told us not to place mammon above God, it is a sin for a so called pastor of a church to drive a limousine, own a mansion, own a private jet, run church like he is a CEO, dress in designer outfit and claim that he is a millionaire. Please mark my words: I call all these a SIN.

Permit me to relay the story of three ministers I have learnt from.

1. John Calvin: Calvin was a master theologian. He wrote The Institute of the Christian Religion, the book that will form the central doctrine of Protestantism to date, at 27. Calvin was studying to be a lawyer when he read Luther's tract and became protestant. Later in life, following much persecution and suffering, Calvin settled in Geneva and preached there all his life. He preached twice a day, everyday. Geneva became the bible school for Protestant thoughts. John Knox came to Geneva to learn at Calvin's feet. He returned to Scotland and after much persecution, turned that country over to Jesus Christ. Calvin died at 55. When he died, he had almost nothing. The little money he had, he willed to the bible institute he had helped form, which was later named after him. Calvin had lost his wife and none of his children survived infancy. Today John Calvin has millions of spiritual children all over the globe. This man knew where to store his riches: in heaven.

2. Charles Haddon Spurgeon: Spurgeon became a Christian at 16. By the age of 19, he was ministering. He Pastored the London Metropolitan Terbarnacle for over 40 years. He is called the Prince of Preachers. At his 40th year in ministry, his church people bought a house for him. It was only a few years to his death. It was said that he appreciated it so much, he used to be seen tenderly caring the rose garden. The year 1892 is usually referred to by evangelical authors as "The Year Spurgeon Died". He had such tremendous influence on evangelical life but only possessed his own home 40years into ministry.

3. David Martin Lloyd-Jones (1900-1981): Dr Lloyd-Jones, was a "real" medical doctor. He was in a sort of Residency Training, when he felt called to full time ministry. He was being billed to succeed a certain famous London physician when he made this decision. Lloyd-Jones pastored the Westminster Chapel for 38 years, probably the longest serving minister of that church. There is no sound evangelical book ever written, in his time and after his death, that does not contain his quote. His preaching was referred to as "Logic on Fire". I have read a lot of commentary on the Dr but non of them relay anything about his wealth. He was a modest family man, with two daughters. He never considered the fact that he could have made riches from practicing medicine as an excuse for wealth in ministry - a favorite refrain of WOF ministers. When I go to London, I will surely visit Westminster chapel because of the legacy he left there.

None of these three men preached Word of Faith.

Apart from these, Whitefield, Wesley, Hudson Taylor, and other great men of God of past time were never known for their wealth. They were known for their wisdom. They are long dead but yet speaking. In 2003, I asked my young cousin attending a LFC if he had heard of Idhahosa, who died in 1998. He replied in the negative, looking lost. That is the legacy of WOF.

There is no person who reads the New Testament objectively that will not find the strong negative emphasis it places on money. But alas we are in a generation where Christians and their spirituality are measured by the type of car they drive, the house they build, the phone they use, the cloth they wear, the income they earn and the amount they give. They are a generation of prosperity children. They think that godliness is a means to financial gain. They are products of a merchandized gospel.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F13: MERCHANDIZING THE GOSPEL[/size]

I REST MY CASE ON F13

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Gospel IS THE Power Of God - Teaching On Romans 1:16 by DrummaBoy(m): 3:15pm On Aug 30, 2014

following...

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 10:29am On Aug 30, 2014

Image123: 1. Did Jesus heal people who were anticipating healing?
2. Did Jesus heal more than one person through a method?
3. Is Jesus present where people are gathered in His name?

Simple yes or no would reduce the beating of the bush.

Therefore Jesus operated a healing school. abi?

I am not the one beating around the bush, you are. I provided the interaction between us both when it seem you were denying your statement where you admitted that Jesus operated a healing school.

Now that the statement is sounding heretical to you too, you want to deny it. There is no need to answer your question; I won't because it would only blur the issues being discussed. If you are MAN enough, stand by your words.

Image123, you are the one to be held most culpable of all who oppose our discussion here. It is apparent that you know what scriptures say but bc you wish to perpetuate a tradition that is benefitting a small clique, men of God, you choose to oppose clear argument that reveal the errors of these men.

Someone like mbaemeka can be excused but not you.

Or why else do you wish to deny the fact that you admitted that Jesus operated a healing school? Why are you beating around the bush? You need not answer. Its obvious to all.

Image123: Image123 said that Jesus operated healing schools? woah,

DrummaBoy: I suspected this sort of statement will come up that's why I provided you a "Fashola train" to ride with. Here:

DrummaBoy: 2. The question was whether Christ operated healing "schools" not whether healing can occur though believers or not.

Image123: The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

DrummaBoy: Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?
This is an all in one question.

Image123: Yes

BabaGnoni: https://s14.postimg.org/45ozcl9lp/Keep_Word.jpg

Good advice.

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Divorce Anita? by DrummaBoy(m): 10:02pm On Aug 29, 2014*

Removed

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Divorce Anita? by DrummaBoy(m): 3:10pm On Aug 29, 2014

Gombs, Joagbaje, kenny4life, and others. Please help shed some light on the OP question.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 2:55pm On Aug 29, 2014

Image123: Image123 said that Jesus operated healing schools? woah,

I suspected this sort of statement will come up that's why I provided you a "Fashola train" to ride with. Here:

DrummaBoy: 2. The question was whether Christ operated healing "schools" not whether healing can occur though believers or not.

Image123: The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

DrummaBoy: Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?
This is an all in one question.

Image123: Yes

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 10:56am On Aug 29, 2014*

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F12: Fake healing schools[/size]

I put two questions to Image123 in response to his statement that Jesus and his apostles operated healings schools, therefore forming the basis of modern healing school missions of WOF. The two questions were related and were crafted to help understand if indeed he understood the implication of his statement. These were my questions:

"Can you really say with a clear conscience that Jesus, Peter and Paul operated healing schools or anything close to them?"

In response to that question Image said that Christ and his apostles GATHERED people for healing.

To gain understanding, I pressed further with another question:

"Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?"

To answer it, Image referred me to the scriptures. I know many scriptures that showed Christ and his apostles healing people, but I do not know any where they operated healing school or where they went out to gather people to heal them. So I asked him for the scriptures and he referred me to:

1. Luke 4:40ff
2. Acts 5:15
3. John 5:1ff

Incidentally I know these scriptures well. What I do not know about them is that Christ and his apostle were either holding healing schools there or gathering people to heal them. If these scriptures are seen in the isolation as Image quoted them, a twisted mind can conclude that they are healing schools. If they are seen in the context where they are written, a proper mind will know that those where nothing like the present day WOF healing charade. So let's go to the context. Because of space and not to bore, I will refer you to relevant texts in the context.

[b]
1. Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season. 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. 4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her. 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them. 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them. 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. 4:42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them. 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. 4:44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.

2. Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

3. John 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

[/b]
This was the follow up question to the first question I asked Image:

"Shall the healing Jesus and his apostles carried out not be the natural outworking of God's power confirming a message; rather than a predetermined exercise?"

Image did not think so. Rather he was convinced that Christ and his apostles were operating healing school and sort to gather people to heal them.

What we saw in the three scenarios was God confirming the message Christ and his apostles were preaching with signs and wonders. Period. These were no healing schools. There is no record in scripture that Jesus and his apostles were gathering people to heal them. What we know for sure, for example, is that Christ even insisted that many miracles he did be kept secret.

I do not subscribe to the position that God no longer heals today. I believe like in the days of Christ and his apostles God still confirms preached messages. Sound messages. I begin to have problems with people when they claim to carry out healing in some sort of school. What is a school? Where people learn. We know of conventional schools where people learn science, art, etc. We know of bible schools, where people learn scriptures. But can we authoritatively say that there is such a thing as a "healing school": where people ostensibly go to learn how to be healed? The question is: did Jesus or his apostles teach people how to be healed? Did they give them healing techniques? Instead, they simply healed people!

Please note that God confirmed the preached word with healing. It assumed that the word preached was sound. Paul shows that Satan also has preachers who preach false doctrine and who also have sign and wonders confirming these doctrines:

[b]

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[/b]
Jesus also said:

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

These are the realities before us:

1. Men will preach sound doctrine and God will confirm with signs and wonders, even today.
2. Men will preach false doctrine, and Satan will confirm with lying wonders.

What should the saint do?

Judge them by their doctrine.

Judge them by their fruits.

Christ has also given us another litmus test: these false teachers will be MANY. It will be the prevailing event in churches.

As has been able recounted by trustman and BabaGnoni, these healing schools have not been able to stand the test of scrutiny. Worse still, the people doing the healing preach twisted, perverted and false doctrines. So who is confirming false doctrine? Your guess is as good as mine.

trustman relayed the story by SirJohn about the healing school of Chris Oyakhilome. Another sham. Our own Joagbaje, an assistant to Chris, resumes a self imposed leave from nl to recount a cork and bull story of his healing an Ebola patient in Tanzania. Now not that God cannot heal Ebola but as BBG told us, God has laws and order he himself follows. We all saw the healing of Dr Bratly. While thanking the medical team that attended to him, he was mostly praising God for the healing. Now we know a lot of people have used the same drugs but still died. Dr Bratly has every reason to thank God. But the healing followed an order. God had given a medical group wisdom to produce a drug. With prayers that drug worked. Some are angry that God saved one American and killed 1,200 Africans. No. The African society will rather invest its time, energy and resources on frivolities, their lust and giving to Pastors, tithes and offerings, when they should use their brains and resources to solve their own problems. An epidemic breaks out and quite naturally they will pay for their indolence by dying in thousands.

My thesis here is that the healing school concept is a sham. Its a money making venture and its pure evil. Most times healing never occur. And when they do occur, its just by God's mercies.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F12: Fake healing schools[/size]

I REST MY CASE ON F12

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 8:43am On Aug 29, 2014

Image123: your train like fasola own. You're older than btgog and btmagog na.

I meant By the Grace of God - BTGoG.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 5:26am On Aug 29, 2014

DrummaBoy: Can you really say with a clear conscience that Jesus, Peter and Paul operated healing schools or anything close to them?

Shall the healing Jesus and his apostles carried out not be the natural outworking of God's power confirming a message; rather than a predetermined exercise?

Please clear answers to the above.

Image123: Like i said already, the bible records Jesus and Peter healing people who were gathered at a place for that purpose. The pool at Bethesda had sick people gathered and waiting in anticipation to be healed by God. Jesus said that where believers are gathered together IN HIS NAME, He will be there.
Believers today can heal the sick using natural outworking of God's power confirming a message(whatever that means). It matters not whether it is done in a school, room, church, street, university or whatever. If thou can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

DrummaBoy: 2. The question was whether Christ operated healing "schools" not whether healing can occur though believers or not.

DrummaBoy: Every miracle Jesus did in the bible were borne out of compassion. Not to show he was powerful or anointed. The two times Jesus spoke about "power" were, first of all, his power to forgive sins. Secondly, he spoke of the power he had to lay down his life for sinners to be saved - Prof Segun Areola, Chapel of the Ressurection, University of Ibadan, today.

I thought this statement might be relevant to the discuss so far.

[size=20pt]
BabaGnoni: There are several distinctness in the way Jesus healed that are not characteristic of healing schools.

First, Jesus healed instantly,

Second, Jesus had no healing schools,

Third, Jesus certainly did no coaching or unverifiable healing,

Fourth, Jesus had no returns nor accusations of fake healing levied against him,

Fifth, Jesus didn't describe or draw attention to the healing
nor use billboards, adverts etc in order to encourage attendance or promote "sales"

Sixth, Jesus never healed the same way twice (i.e. He healed spontaneously. He didn't have a modus operandi and never followed healing set techniques)
[/size]

Image123: The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

DrummaBoy: Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?

This is an all in one question.

Image123: Yes, search the scriptures. i'll like to be of help if you don't find.

DrummaBoy: I have done that, my dear, and found no such scripture that said or implied "Jesus gathered people to heal them" or operated a healing school. If you cannot provide the scripture, we must conclude that you are wrong to say Jesus gathered people for healing services and that the healing school operated by WOF adherents has no foundation in scripture.

Image123: Not so fast, i'm not the one to bring you to conclusion. Why the urge of 'must conclude' ? Why should your concluded conclusion rest on my provisions?

Image123: Luke 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

These two events indicate sick people gathered and then healed. Also not forgetting the pool of Bethesda where sick people gathered in anticipation of divine healing.

Finally.

I related the train of discuss so far to help the reader comprehend the true meat of the discussion.

I will return to give my submission to the above BTGoG.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 10:33pm On Aug 28, 2014

Image123: Yes, search the scriptures. i'll like to be of help if you don't find.

I have done that, my dear, and found no such scripture that said or implied "Jesus gathered people to heal them" or operated a healing school. If you cannot provide the scripture, we must conclude that you are wrong to say Jesus gathered people for healing services and that the healing school operated by WOF adherents has no foundation in scripture.

Christianity Etc › Re: Why Many Pastors Will Go To Hell – Pastor Chris Oyakhilome by DrummaBoy(m): 9:03pm On Aug 28, 2014

Yooguyz: You did not answer my question. Will all pastors go to heaven? Yes or No?

I have answered your question. You apparently have problems with comprehension. Read what you quoted again.

Christianity Etc › Re: Why Many Pastors Will Go To Hell – Pastor Chris Oyakhilome by DrummaBoy(m): 5:15pm On Aug 28, 2014*

Yooguyz: Ok, can I take this to mean that you believe that all pastors will go to heaven?

I don't have any problem with Oyakhilome's statement.

My problem is with the double standard his likes practice. They have no problem making sweeping, generalized statements, that carry no responsibility and offends no one, as long as they do not name names.

Then people like myself come out and say the likes of Oyakhilome preach false doctrine because they preach, for example, Word of Faith. And they are offended. And we ask: why are you offended? And they say because we named their names. And we say: but the likes of Oyakhilome said many pastors will not go to heaven because they were not obeying God. Then they say: Oyakhilome didn't name any name.

And I am asking: is there a difference btw I who named a name and you who didn't? And you say: yes. And I say: no; because Oyakhilome made his statement with some people in mind. The only difference BTW us is that he was too cowardly to name their names.

See?

8 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Why Many Pastors Will Go To Hell – Pastor Chris Oyakhilome by DrummaBoy(m): 4:43pm On Aug 28, 2014

Yooguyz: If I read it correctly, he didn't call anybody's name.I don't think he's judging any1, he's only stating a bible fact.

So because he didn't call anyone's name, he cannot be accused of judging; or touching an anointed?

This is the whole hypocrisy in this ministry stuffs the likes of Oyakhilome practice.

Oyakhilome refrained from calling names because he cannot bear the responsibility and opprobrium that will follow such actions. And if he dare call anyone's name his own skeletons will be revealed. Period.

So Oyakhilome made such sweeping statement without having anyone in mind? Keep on deceiving yourselves.

My position: Biblical truths must be stated as it is. If a man preaches false doctrine, his doctrine, what he said, who said it, where he said it and to whom it was said, should all be clearly stated. That's the responsibility that follows preaching.

If a preacher worth his salt cannot do this, I doubt his call by God, for these are true test of those truly called. Gospel preaching has forever contained its offence. You reduce the offence, you loose its power.

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 3:43pm On Aug 28, 2014*

Image123: i'll oblige you and read your book or document when i have the time. i can assure you, i've heard Dr. lake himself and i believe him above the contrary reports, thanks.

The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

OK. Thank you Image.

Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?

This is an all in one question.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Prosperity Gospel - How Often Is It Be Preached? by DrummaBoy(m): 1:39pm On Aug 28, 2014

This "prophet" is hungry

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 11:31am On Aug 28, 2014

For emphasis. In case you missed this due to the length of the post:
[size=20pt]
BabaGnoni: There are several distinctness in the way Jesus healed that are not characteristic of healing schools.

First, Jesus healed instantly,

Second, Jesus had no healing schools,

Third, Jesus certainly did no coaching or unverifiable healing,

Fourth, Jesus had no returns nor accusations of fake healing levied against him,

Fifth, Jesus didn't describe or draw attention to the healing
nor use billboards, adverts etc in order to encourage attendance or promote "sales"

Sixth, Jesus never healed the same way twice (i.e. He healed spontaneously. He didn't have a modus operandi and never followed healing set techniques)
[/size]

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 9:14am On Aug 28, 2014

nannymcphee: pls ur posts has nothing to do with this thread, this is akin to derailing

This thread is about word of faith & not the catholic canon or dogmas

Thanks

I support this motion.

Can syncan, italo and alentyno open a new thread for their discussion?

Thank you as you comply with the humble request.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: The Tithe War by DrummaBoy(m): 8:55am On Aug 28, 2014

Valuable information BabaGnoni.

Source: www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War

Courtesy of Google.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 3:44am On Aug 28, 2014

What God Owes Us

By Cindy Hess Kasper

Walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him. —
Colossians 1:10

A story is told about a vendor
who sold bagels for 50 cents each at a street
corner food stand. A jogger ran past and threw a
couple of quarters into the bucket but didn’t take
a bagel. He did the same thing every day for
months. One day, as the jogger was passing by,
the vendor stopped him. The jogger asked, “You
probably want to know why I always put money
in but never take a bagel, don’t you?” “No,” said
the vendor. “I just wanted to tell you that the
bagels have gone up to 60 cents.”

Too often, as believers, we treat God with that same kind of attitude. Not only are we ungrateful for what He’s given us—but we want more. Somehow we feel
that God owes us good health, a comfortable life,
material blessings. Of course, God doesn’t owe us
anything, yet He gives us everything. G. K.
Chesterton wrote, “Here dies another day, during
which I have had eyes, ears, hands, and the great
world round me. And with tomorrow begins
another. Why am I allowed two?” The psalmist
said, “This is the day the Lord has made; we will
rejoice and be glad in it” ( Ps. 118:24 ). Each day,
whether good or bad, is one more gift from our
God. Our grateful response should be to live to
please Him.

www.preceptaustin.org/colossians_110.htm#1:10

I found the above quote in my study. Again, I thought it would be relevant to the discourse so far.

Christianity Etc › Re: Are God's Laws And Commandments Done Away With/destroyed? No!!! by DrummaBoy(m): 8:56pm On Aug 27, 2014*

JesusisLord85:
I have not finished reading your post. It became clear all too soon you did not read my post fully, or you did not understand.

Apparently you really were not ready for a discussion. I took my time to respond to you because the thread is an apparent reaction to the Grace Convention, for which I was one of the organizers. If you now tell me that you did not read that post, it's your loss. But I will read yours and will be available to set the record straight on your neo-Judaism doctrine. I have your time.

JesusisLord85: 1. There is somewhere you mentioned Jesus was teaching Christians? LMAO. He taught Jews and many believed in him. The first to receive the Spirit at Pentecost, were Jews. Paul had been Persecuting Jews. There is no new religion you HERETIC.

I agree. The original audience in Matthew 5 were Jews. However the fact that that scripture is part of cannon of scripture today means its also a message to Christians. That is what I meant by "teaching Christians".

I will also do one other thing in this discuss, I will ignore your snide comments and insults, and I will not insult you. I will leave the audience to decide who truly is Christlike in presentation; remember scripture enjoins us to commend our doctrine through our lives and speech.

JesusisLord85: The prophets prophesy a saviour for the people would come. It comes to pass. Where does the new religion come from? Absolute rubbish. Invention of the men who enslaved and oppressed your fathers.

I actually do not preach Jesus brought a new religion. I teach dispensational change. If it sounds like religion or a new religion to you, fine.

JesusisLord85: 2. The bit I bothered to quote is laughable. Go back and read what I wrote about "fulfil".

Luke 24:44-46 “and he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”

THINGS WRITTEN CONCERNING ME!!!

I actually took my time on the issue how Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets. The scripture you quoted has not changed my position. Two things were to be fulfilled: LAW and PROPHETS. In your OP you spoke of only the fulfilling of prophetic prophesies. Other parts of scripture, especially the Pauline epistles, taught the fulfilling of the law. But alas you didn't read it. That's not my fault.

JesusisLord85: The Law includes the books of Moses.
The Prophets are the other books of the OT

Is Deuteronomy not the law. Did Moses not prophesy concerning Yahshua? Therefore there were things written about him in the law. If the prophecy comes to pass, we say it is fulfilled.

I agree. I said that Moses, through the law, prophesied the coming of Christ. Those were fulfilled. What you cannot understand is that the law, not prophesy, was also fulfilled.

Let me refer you to the story of Peter's encounter in a vision. Truth is that Peter was the first to hear a full blown gospel of grace. God told him to rise up and eat meat forbidden by the law. Peter refused, saying they were unclean. God told him that he should not call something unclean that God had cleansed. How did the unclean become clean? Through the cross of Jesus. The written code, ordinances, laws, were nailed to the cross.
[size=16pt]
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/size]
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Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[/size]
When Christ rose, the law died. That is how the unclean became clean. That's why the gentile, which were originally unclean, became clean and Peter could visit them. Peter, a Jew, understood this; why do you, a gentile and recipient of this mercy find it difficult to believe?

JesusisLord85: Simple concept.

I won't spend too much time going through the other mumbo jumbo you wrote because the wise shall read and understand.

Your loss.

JesusisLord85: I will continue with my teaching now. Some of which will touch on some points you try to raise.

I will be waiting for you.

JesusisLord85: But you'd do well to open your eyes. How did all the prophets prophesy all that would happen, but someone forgot to mention there would be a new religion. Find me the prophecy for that. And don't even try Jeremiah 31:31, or you will receive a holy slap.

[size=16pt]
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
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JesusisLord85: Teachers of lawlessness

Lol!

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Are God's Laws And Commandments Done Away With/destroyed? No!!! by DrummaBoy(m): 11:06am On Aug 27, 2014*

We are instructed as Bible teachers to follow the context in which we teach the verses of scripture which we use to justify our doctrines. The OP has three positions to prove for putting up his text; they are:

JesusisLord85: Good Evening.

This is a big topic, and I will try and keep it short (or break into chunks). In this writing, I will tear down and expose the blind guides on NL (and many of modern day Christianity), who claim that Yahshua came to destroy the law and the prophets, and institute a new religion. Over a series of posts:
1. I will prove with scripture that the laws are not done away with
2. I will prove that if you say you love God but keep not his commandments, you are a liar
3. I will show that if you reject the laws, you have not the spirit. So most of you have NEVER had the holy spirit.

To prove his point, he quotes Matthew 5:17-18. Incidentally that scripture has a context wherein it was made. We would do well to consider preceding verses and some after it too:

[b]
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[/b]

Matthew 5 opens up with Jesus teaching on the Beatitudes. In other words "attitude becoming of Gods people". Blessed are these; blessed are that. Please note that non of these blessedness had anything to do with the blessedness God pronounced on the Jews when they keep the laws, as the OP will have us believe from Deuteronomy 28. No where has such blessedness been taught in all of scripture. Jesus was introducing a new order of blessing.

Stay with me.

Jesus goes unto explain that we, Christians, should be salt and light. He tells us the reason: so that our good works can be seen. Then he quotes the scripture the OP introduced and explains the implication of it, in the light of what he has been speaking of: good works (Ephesians 2:10):

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law and the prophet but came to fulfill them. Two things needed fulfillment: the law and the prophet. The OP rightly said that Jesus fulfilled the sin offering in his dying as the sacrificial lamb for the world. The prophet Isaiah had prophesied it and prophet Moses had pointed to it in the law. Thus the prophets are fulfilled. We are left with the law. If the OP first theses which says "that the laws are not done away with" is true according to scripture, then Jesus must be a liar bc he has said he would fulfill two things: the law and the prophets.

Scriptures gives us ample evidence that Jesus not only fulfilled the prophets or what they prophesied about him, he also fulfilled the law.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Please read the whole chapter.

But the snipet proves the following

1. The law was a precursor to grace, v.19.

2. No man can be justified keeping the law, v.20.

3. God has given a righteousness, without the law, which the law and the prophets confirms, v. 21.

4. That righteousness is the righteousness of God, that is our by faith, v.21,28.

5. This is the only way the law can be established or fulfilled, v.31.

Paul is simply reechoing Jesus words in Matthew 5. Jesus has said he would fulfill the law and the prophets. Paul shows us that it is fulfilled as the law and prophets are witness to this righteousness that is by faith.

So Paul can give us related scriptures:

[b]
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[/b]
Now I understand that the OP claim that grace teachers twist Paul's words to mean what he is not saying. If we do, I request he tells us what the above scripture truly mean. I would only accept his position if he tells us that Paul was not an inspired author of scripture; making Paul an enemy of Christ words.

Matthew 5 then proceed to discuss other things outside fulfilling the law and the prophets.

Jesus then said that our righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees. What was the pharisees righteousness? it wasn't their self righteousness. It was the righteousness of the law. The righteousness of Deut 28. In Romans 3:21 Paul tells of another righteousness: the righteousness of God. This is the righteousness that exceeds that of the pharisees. How do we attain this righteousness? By keeping the law again? Then we have the righteousness of the Pharisees. That righteousness is attained by faith, alone. ROM 3:28.

It is this righteousness Christ began discussing in verses Matthew 5:21ff. That mere hate is murder. Not just killing as Moses laws preached. Mere lust is adultery not just doing the act as Moses laws states. Jesus was providing a higher law: the law of love, which fulfills all the laws of Moses.

So therefore when Paul preached against circumcision and sabbath, he was not infringing on Jesus words in Matthew 5:19. Already by preaching a gospel of grace fulfilled in the law of love, Paul and all Grace believers like him were fulfilling all the laws of Christ and not breaking them.

A careful study of Matthew 5 will reveal that what Jesus was talking about in context was the law of love. That is why the beatitudes are different from the laws of Moses. That is why he taught a higher requirement.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I humbly propose to the OP that the gospel of grace does not require us to keep the laws of Moses. It was a grace gospel Jesus was teaching in Matthew 5; not a law gospel. If however the OP intends to keep the law, he should keep it in full. Sacrifice animals for your sins. Keep the sabbath holy. Pay tithes of agricultural products. Ensure that your righteousness is fully of the law. And pray that this righteousness will save you at the end.

If you believe it won't, I invite you and all my readers to consider the righteousness of God that comes to all men by faith, through the grace of the cross, preached in a gospel of grace. You would not regret you did.

Shalom.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 3:23am On Aug 27, 2014

Reserved

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 9:01pm On Aug 26, 2014

trustman: [size=16pt]MY SUBMISION ON F1: FAITH IN FAITH OR FAITH AS A FORCE[/size]

On Napoleon Hill -

A look at Napoleon Hill's statement (or is it definition?) on FAITH shows that he refers to FAITH as a state of mind which may be induced, or created, by affirmation or repeated instructions to the subconscious mind, through the principle of autosuggestion.
Notice he said it is induced, or created by affirmation or repeated instructions to the subconscious mind.
Notice also how it is done - through the principle of autosuggestion. Now, autosuggestion is defined by the dictionary to be "influencing of one's own attitudes, behavior, or physical condition by mental processes other than conscious thought: self-hypnosis".
In all these: affirmation, repeated instructions (to the subconscious mind), autosuggestion, the focus is on the individual and what he can achieve using the 'mind'.

According to him "Repetition of affirmation of orders to your subconscious mind is the only known method of voluntary development of the emotion of faith".
So, to him, repetitive affirmations (declarations) to the subconscious mind develops faith. But how did the Bible say faith comes?
When he says "All thoughts which have been ... ... mixed with faith, begin immediately to translate themselves into their physical equivalent or counterpart" he means the actions in the mind bring about the physical realities the person who uses this faith principle desires.
So to him, the subconscious mind is that through which "any desire you wish (is) translated into its physical, or monetary equivalent". He goes on then to say that it is "in a state of expectancy or BELIEF that transmutation will actually take place"
In all these, it is man that is at work in his mind to create whatever realities he wants.
To Napoleon Hill FAITH is what brings about the desired realities. Not faith in God but faith in FAITH. Just develop faith, exercise it, use it and you will get what you want.
He says also that "This is why you are asked to write out a statement of your major purpose, or Definite Chief Aim, commit it to memory, and repeat it, in audible words, day after day, until these vibrations of sound have reached your subconscious mind".
So we see here that 'vibrations of sounds' getting to the subconscious are what is relied upon. Do you see how this ties up with the 'power of the spoken word' of WoF?

He states that "this formula is a law of Nature which no man has yet been able to explain. It has baffled the scientist of all ages. The psychologists have named this law " autosuggestion", and let it go at that ... ... ... The name by which one calls this law is of little importance. The important fact about it is ... ... ... it WORKS for the glory and success of mankind, if it is used constructively".
We see here that the faith he talks about is a formula or a 'law of Nature'. It is for the 'glory' of mankind. To him the name by which the law is called is of little importance, so the user of the 'law' can use any suitable name to make it fit into his belief system as long the formula is still followed and applied. So the WoF can simply change the name to suit their Christian bias but still retain essentially the same principles.
As evidence of those he claim used the power of FAITH he put at the head "the Nazarene" apparently referring to Jesus Christ (?). He went on to mention Christianity's basis as FAITH even though he says "people may have perverted, or misinterpreted the meaning of this great force".
To him then FAITH is a "great force".

He claims the achievements of Christ said to be "miracle" were done by FAITH. He says: "If there are any such phenomenon as "miracles" they are produced only through the state of the mind known as FAITH!". To him: "some teachers of religion, and many who call themselves Christians, neither understand nor practice FAITH".
So it is the state of the mind (FAITH) that produces miracles. Even Christians don't understand FAITH as he (Napoleon Hill) does.

This Napoleon Hill's 'FAITH' can be demonstrated by anyone. Mahatma Gandhi , of India used its 'power' in "influencing two hundred million minds" and Charles Schwab of the United States Steel Corporation also used "his FAITH, his DESIRE, his IMAGINATION, his PERSISTENCE" to create the giant organization.

We see here that the 'FAITH' Napoleon Hill talks about is created from the human mind. Anyone can use it irrespective of his religious (or irreligious) inclination. This Napoleon Hill's 'FAITH' does not look like TRUST in God or His Word. It is man generated and man-centered. Biblical faith is God-centered and it is God's Word that builds up faith in the believer. Unfortunately the 'teaching' of this man - Napoleon Hill - has found expressions in the church through pastors who have imbibed its philosophy. Hill himself claimed that guides from other "dimension" gave him "supreme secret" to the world. Who can these ones from other "dimension" be? Angels or demons? What new thing - "supreme secret" - is being offered to mankind that the Bible didn't give us?

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 6:16pm On Aug 26, 2014*

^^^

I believe the very first posts, F1, treated this subject extensively. It will be nice if those with opposing views read them and offer their objections, if there are any.

Below I paste the summary on my post on F1:

DrummaBoy: It is clear that the teachings of Napoleon Hill are a perverted dimension of the biblical faith. Mr Hill at some point in that chapter actually defined faith using the Mark 11:24 definition but it is clear that while the bible faith is a gift given to men by God, Hill faith is one that you work up to obtain your desires. In this, Hill and his counterparts were dishonest for they refused to give credit to the place, scriptures, were they got the concept of faith from. Their own type of faith is a faith anyone can exercise, Regardless of creed. They have simply widened the way to God, a way that leads to destruction.

Except for this, Hill and his New Thought friends are largely honest. They hardly claimed they were teaching biblical thoughts. The real dishonest folks are the WOF folks who took Hill's teachings, traced them to them to the bible and began to call it the Christian gospel. One thing Hill did not mention in his write up was the efficacy of these teachings. Make no doubt about it, the practice of these teaching produce tremendous results. Hill himself would never have been poor, selling millions in bestsellers, advising US Presidents, etc. It worked for his health too, living to 87years but could these teachings redeem his soul?

Testimonies abound of people using these principles to birth real health and wealth but are they Christian? Note also Hill frequent use of the word PRINCIPLE, it is actually from New Thoughts that WOF adherents get the word principles and laws from and not the bible. Because while scripture teaches principles, it shows that they apply to Christians mostly. Hill insist anyone can apply and get result from these principles.

When I was growing up, it was not unusual to see Muslims and stark agnostics with Hill's books. Some Christians also read them. With the aim, like he says, to get rich. Is that a Christian purpose. I really do hope that our readers have been able to see that the root of all these forces of faith that is producing tremendous results for folks in our time is as actually metaphysical. These are what eastern religionist teach their people to make success of life and the worst part of it is that these things work. Deceiving the gullible to adopt them as religious practices.

The gospel calls Christians to live by faith and not by result. The biblical faith is miles apart and different from the faith of Mr Hill and WOF. The Christian faith comes by hearing God's word and not by vibration in the subconscious that came through auto suggestions. We have inadvertantly introduced New Age teachings into the Christian Church without knowing it. Today, Sunday, millions of people will listen to a minister teach them Napoleon Hill's gospel, backed up with testimonies of results, thinking they have listened to Christ gospel. These folks are simply deceived.

I trust that our readers have comprehended and are able to distinguish true biblical faith from these auto suggested sort of faith.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Jewish And Muslim Debacle by DrummaBoy(m): 5:06pm On Aug 26, 2014

That article is very instructive Pastor Kun.

Very interesting too.

Na only Jews waka come dis world?

Christianity Etc › Re: Boko Haram And The Nigerian Christian - An Article by DrummaBoy(op): 4:59pm On Aug 26, 2014

PastorKun: I don't agree with all your views here and I even think you sound a bit patronising. Truth be told, Islamic terrorism is not a local problem as represented by boko haram. It is actually a global phenomenon and these fundamentalists have not only proven time and again that they draw their inspiration from their holy books, they also claim with evidence that they follow the example of Muhammed who is their perfect example and was known to be a man of war. In my views there is something very fundamentally inconsistent about the religion and the way it's adherents wish to interpret or practise it.

I agree with the patronizing aspect you suggested. Its deliberate. The article is meant for a wider audience on my blog. When I write articles like this I consider the sensitivity of my audience; my Muslim father and uncle; my colleague at work. These are all people I am still trusting God for their salvation. No need to loose them.

But at the same time, the junction we've reached as a multi religious nation must allow for some tolerance. If Boko Haram have gone extreme, we need not go the other extreme. When I discuss with Christian brethren, I could then suggest the things you have said above.

Nonetheless, we must agree that there are many "correct" headed Muslims and all are not extremists. I also stand by my words that the Islamic version of BH is not the one many Muslim practice today. I cannot say for certain what sort of Islam Mohammed practiced though.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 2:54pm On Aug 26, 2014

mbaemeka: The keywords are 'partakers of the sufferings of christ' or 'afflictions for the GOSPEL'. The afflictions/persecutions/tribulations/impoverishment/incarceration/labelling etc. Should be for the GOSPEL'S sake and nothing else.

If we are partaking of christs sufferings then we ought to suffer what Christ suffered and nothing more and it has to be for the reason he suffered- which is because of his convictions.

Did Christ suffer sickness? Did Christ suffer 'poverty' by virtue of his birth or because of the gospel? Was Christ subject to the principles of the world?

Then we cannot teach people to accept such things except they are in tandem with the gospel or the preaching of it. Epaphroditus didn't take care of himself well and took ill BECAUSE of the work of the ministry. Paul told us that much and that's a worthy example.

At the risk of being misunderstood by you, I will still like to shed some light on the errors of your thinking.

There is no such thing as "subject to the principles of this world" in all the bible. Such a thing a New Age doctrine; it has no foundation in the word of God. This New Age or eastern doctrine teaches that believers should not be subject to the caprices of life or principles of this world. Rather we should use God's power within us to make life subject to us. It teaches that we, not God, should determine our own destiny. We cannot allow things to just hit us down; rather we should bring our world under our control by our confession and by our beliefs. I repeat that this doctrine is demonic and from the very depths of hell.

Before I proceed, let me offer a balance.

Christians can suffer persecution for their faith in Christ. Christians can also suffer illness and poverty because they dwell in a fallen body and are subject to the economy of this world. In spite of this reality, God is merciful to the Christian because God is first of all our Father. I am a father; and in spite of my weakness, I know my good plans for my kids. How much more God and Jesus testifies to this: that God will grant our requests. So what happens in case of sickness and poverty? The truth is that the number one anti dote to poverty is not faith or confession. Its plain hard work. If Mr Christian spent his youth in school, grabbed a good degree and trusted God to order his steps, he would not suffer in life. He would not be poor. God would ensure he is well taken care of. Simple. Just like any other non Christian.

If Mr Christian does not abuse his body, does exercises, eats well and trust God, he would not be sick.

However, in spite of Mr Christian's hard work and good eating, Mr Christian can still hit life's visiccitude. What should he do then? Mr Christian must trust God. Please notice that the unbeliever can do all that the Christian can do, except to trust God. That's what distinguishes them. If Mr Christian then hits challenges concerning his health and wealth, what does he do? HE SHOULD TRUST GOD!!!

So that the New Testament has made abundant provision for the poor Christian. A Christian who was not irresponsible but suddenly hits financial challenge must have his wants supplied by the brethren in church (2cor 8: 13-14). Our abundance must supply his want. When he is OK, he could then give to others who lack too. There is nothing wrong with a poor Christian but there is everything wrong with a stingy church. This is the recommendation of the NT!

What happens to an ill Christian? James 5, we call the elders of the church who should pray for him. The prayer of faith will save the sick.

God is sovereign and it pleases him to deal with us all, in this path of sanctification, in the way he chooses. Through any trial he deems fit. The minute we begin to choose what we want as challenges or suffering - saying we want persecution and not health or financial challenge - we cease to make him Lord over us; rather we become a clay that dictates to the Porter. That is the tragedy of this New Age doctrine called Word of Faith!

And, yes, the Christian suffering can include persecution for the faith but it is not limited to that. The NT has abundant evidence that Christians can be poor. Lazarus was poor and Jesus spoke well about him. Jesus referred to himself as poor, having no roof over himself or a place to lay his head. Jesus identified with the poor in Matthew 25. James advised we should not despise the poor. Peter and Paul differed in ministry but agreed to take care of poor Christians in Galatians 2. Many Christians were ill, including Timothy and Epaphroditus. Job was poor and ill. In their bid to credit their gospel, WOF despises the poor and shames the sick. WOF hates Job with a passion but in spite of their hatred, Job remains a leading prophet of scripture God said he spoke well of Him.

The subtle distinction between the Christian faith and the Word of Faith is that the former submits to God; while the latter dictates to God. The former consider God as Lord; the latter makes God an errand boy and transforms man to god. The former is the truth of the gospel; the latter is New Age and it is down right demonic.

mbaemeka stop the deception!!!

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Meaning Of "The Violent Takes It By Force" In Matthew 12:11 by DrummaBoy(m): 1:26pm On Aug 26, 2014

damilarelr: @Goshen360
@Christembassy
@Drummaboy
sorry I mentioned you, but you are going to love this topic.

I endorse every word in the OP.

Please what are your plans towards a Grace Conference 2014 which you mentioned?

Christianity Etc › Re: Boko Haram And The Nigerian Christian - An Article by DrummaBoy(op): 11:58am On Aug 26, 2014

Mynd44: True.

Thanks

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 10:43am On Aug 26, 2014

@ nannymcphee

I will still enjoin you to pay close attention to the discussions the thread has enumerated.

The Christian Church continues to find itself walking a straight path between ensuring it is not corrupted by false doctrines that Satan endeavors to sow in its midst and the need to walk in love. Paul, in Ephesians, calls this holding the truth in love. In one extreme some proclaim truth without an iota of concern for those who hear it: the attitude is "whoever ox is gored is their business"; on the other extreme some sacrifice truth to ensure love and some kind of ecumenism in the church is achieved. Neither is right. We must simply hold the truth in love.

Listening to the testimony of the likes of Candour on this forum gives me hope that the church will still rise in this country. In the late 90s as a young believer, I was continually appalled by the attitude of Christian ministers in Pentecostal churches. The pomposity, the boast, the lording it over the sheep, the penchant for divisiveness, etc. I only realized recently that the root course of it all was this WOF cancer. Read the document Nora pasted here, WOF has been like this from inception. Nothing has changed!

What then is our duty: we must recognize first that Jesus is not the author of any organized church (pls read BabaGnoni excellent position on this in his paper at the just concluded Grace Convention). He might permit them but that is not his ultimate desire. Jesus' supreme desire is to be build a church - an ekklesia, a body of called out folks, a church without boundaries or walls, a body of Christians on the streets. A church that bears no name than Christ's. Those he would use to build this church are you and I, people who recognize the fact that God's people are a mystical body and not something that can be seen.

The best gift any Christian can have is ability to discern Christ body in anyone regardless of denominational divide. This gift also comes with an ability to discern falsehood - knowing those who are Antichrist thought they name the name Jesus on their lips. That's the tragedy of WOF.

I do not agree with everything shdemidemi says here. He is a dispensationalist like many of my friends in this forum. But I consider his views "safe". I have never disputed them on this forum. I think it is part of discerning Christ's body. Another excuse I give for his views is that Christ builds our theological outlook based on our experiences, our understanding of scripture and our calling in his body. If all this will make us more effective Christians, then keep your views.

Regardless of my position so far, I maintain that the biggest emergency in the body of Christ are Word of Faith doctrines. Not Catholicism but WOF. The reason is simple: the other problems Christianity has contended with usually have a denominational bias. So one could easily take care of the problem by avoiding the denomination. But WOF caught across all denominations. WOF has a doctrinal bias, so it can reach all denomination and its almost impossible to avoid. WOF is like the old Gnostic heresy. Gnosticism is another kettle of fish - pls use Google or Wikipedia for more on that.

Again I enjoin you to sit back and watch the tape roll on this thread. BabaGnoni, I think, still has something to present on F12. After that we proceed to F13. Soon we would be done and will have ample opportunity to answer both your questions and queries.

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