₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: Now back to the most hated subject of the religious folks. The two Tithing Systems (6).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiT89LCb7Ow

1. Tithing under the Abrahamic covenant - tithing by grace

2. Tithing under the law

frosbel: when OLAADEGBU started promoting that fraud called Creflo, I knew he was 'finished'.

Luke 18:12

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

frosbel: ^^^

reconcile these scripture to your statements :

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" - 1 Corinthians 9:27


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." - Romans 8:13

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 [size=16pt]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day[/size]. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. - Romans 4

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 5

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

frosbel: ^^^

reconcile these scripture to your statements :

"But I[b] keep under my body[/b], and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" - 1 Corinthians 9:27


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." - Romans 8:13

frosbel: so what happens if the saved ones do not :

- deny ungodliness
- deny worldly lusts
- live soberly or righteously or godly, in this present world


Will they still be saved ?

Titus 2

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit

Image123: Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matthew 23:4 For (tithe collectors) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but (tithe collectors) themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

ayoku777: Hmmm

1 In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying, 2 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, This people say, The time is not come, the time that the LORD'S house should be built. 3 Then came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet, saying, 4[b] Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your ceiled houses, and this house lie waste[/b]? 5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways. 6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways. 8 Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the LORD. 9 Ye looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when ye brought it home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that is waste, and ye run every man unto his own house. 10 Therefore the heaven over you is stayed from dew, and the earth is stayed from her fruit. 11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

32 Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God; 33 For the showbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God. 34 And we cast the lots among the priests, the Levites, and the people, for the wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God, after the houses of our fathers, at times appointed year by year, to burn upon the altar of the LORD our God, as it is written in the law: 35 And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD: 36 Also the firstborn of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the firstlings of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, unto the priests that minister in the house of our God: 37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. 38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: [size=16pt] and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. [/size] 39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God - Nehemiah 10

Mark Miwerds: TITHERS ARE LIKE CIRCUS ELEPHANTS

Back in the 1970’s, I worked as an assistant animal trainer with a circus that traveled up and down the East Coast. It always amazed me to watch the elephants swaying back and forth under the sideshow tent.

What was to prevent them from running out of the tent and trampling the crowds out on the midway? It was nothing more than a chain attached on one end to one of the elephant’s back legs and on the other end to a stake in the ground.

The adult elephants wore the same size chain as the young baby elephants and could have pulled the stakes out of the ground with ease. And yet, in my four years of working with the circus, not one of the adult elephants ever tried to escape the chain that could have easily been snapped should they give the slightest pull. Why did they not try to escape, you may ask?

Because they were conditioned to believe they could not escape… brainwashed, if you will into believing that the chain that bound their feet was stronger than they were.

There is an old saying that if you tell a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it to be true. The elephant and his chain is a perfect example of that principle. The chain is put on an elephant when it is still very young. As a youth, the elephant is not as docile as the adult. It will often pull on the chain in an attempt to free itself, yet it is not quite strong enough to pull the stake out of the ground or to break the chain. Over a period of time, and after many failed attempts to free itself, the elephant resigns itself to bondage because he gives in to the thought that no matter what, he cannot free himself from that chain.

And so, though he may grow from an infant of one hundred-sixty-nine pounds to an adult of six tons, he believes that he can never be free from that chain. So it is with many who have been taught the monetary tithe requirement doctrine for years and years. They have been told the lie long enough that, like the elephant and his chain, they have been conditioned to believe that tithing of their money is a mandatory requirement handed down to the Church by God Himself.

And yet, if the Christian would only pick up his or her Bible and study all instances of tithing in it, that Christian would find that God never authorized the Church to receive a monetary tithe from her members. The monetary tithe is a doctrine that was invented long after the last book of the Holy Bible was penned. The monetary tithe doctrine is an invention of man, who introduced it to the Church in the late-eighth century A.D.. Thus, the Church became defiled and began teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

The only Scriptural commands concerning tithing are found in the dispensation of the Mosaic Law. Those commands all show that the tithes that God required were agricultural in nature; i.e., crops, flocks and herds. (see Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 12:17; Deuteronomy 14:22-29; Deuteronomy 26:12; 2 Chronicles 31:5-6, 12; Malachi 3:7-11, Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42)

The only time in Scripture that God demanded tithes was during the dispensation of the Mosaic Law, and then it was only required of the children of Israel. No other nation was ever commanded by God to tithe in His Word. (see Leviticus 27:34; Numbers 18:24,26,28; Nehemiah 10:37-38)

Pastors today have no Scriptural justification for preaching their flock must tithe their money to the Church. God never authorized such a doctrine in His Word. Pastors need to stick with what the Word of God says instead of teaching what it does not say.

Saints, I encourage you to be as the Berean’s in Paul’s day. Don’t just accept the words being preached in the pulpit. Search the Scriptures daily to see if what your pastor is teaching or preaching is so. Compare the sermon with what the Word of God says. God’s Word is the only sound doctrine that is nourishment for your soul.

ayoku777: Hmmm, you said a lot. I love the part where you said God's faithfulness is not determined by ours. God is not faithful to us only when we are faithful. This sums up the grace revelation. Its about Jesus.

What did we do to inherit the sin of the first Adam? And what did we do to stay condemned under him? NOTHING! Why is it then so hard to believe that this is exactly what is applicable under the Last Adam (Jesus)? We don't do anything besides faith to receive his righteousness and we don't do anything to stay justified under him.

If what I do makes me lose the righteousness of Christ, then even the righteousness of Christ is built on the foundation of my own righteousness. Meaning it was never really his righteousness.

ckkris: I presumed everyone knows the blessed widow that gave all her mites, and right in the
TEMPLE.

ayoku777: I've studied that topic too, again and again, coz I don't want to give impressionable believers unbiblical hope. But honestly when we study the nature of our salvation, we will agree that it is (near) impossible to lose it.

At salvation, when we received Christ; we received remission of sins by the blood (passover), regeneration of spirit by the word (unleavened) and restoration of life by the Spirit (firstfruit). And the bible says the Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption, Eph 4v30 - And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. So the Spirit is given us to help us from regeneration of spirit unto reformation of the soul unto redemption of the body

Now, to lose your salvation would imply that the Holy Spirt unsealed us (for whatever reason), and then departed from us, contrary to God's covenant promise in Isaiah 59v21 -As for me, this is my COVENANT with them, saith the Lord, My spirit that is upon thee ...shall not depart out of thy mouth ...from henceforth AND FOR EVER. And then after He departed from us, our regenerated new creation spirit now became unregenerated. That is what it means to lose your salvation.

This is a VERY FAR-FETCHED thing to ever happen. So if I'm asked if I'm a 'once saved always saved christian', I will say 99% But IF a christian can EVER lose his salvation, it will be IF AND ONLY IF the said believer no longer believes in Christ's death and resurrection. Not any other sin.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous - Romans 5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5

Today, the visions of heaven that we hear of leave many Christians in doubt of what there eternal destiny shall be. Lately, we have heard of so many people with claims to after death experiences. Many of these people come back to tell us that heaven cannot be reached except by human effort. Their visions lack the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith; rather they tell us that we must pray enough, give enough, and work enough to enter heaven. So rather than a joyful expectation of the kingdom of God for laboring believers today, we instead have a fearful expectation of judgment (Hebrew 10:27). What is supposed to be the expectation of the wicked is being made the expectation of the righteous. I use this opportunity to comfort the heart of any Christian that has been shaken by these visions by saying that they are false visions from the world of Satan, and that the bible does not support a plethora of the claims these people come up with in those visions (Colosians 2:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:2). Rather, the bible makes it clear that everyone who has found faith in Jesus Christ can look forward to an eternal home in heaven; for God has not appointed us to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Genuine Christians should look forward to heaven without fear.

garyarnold: Malachi 3:7 (KJV) “Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ORDINANCES, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?”

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) “Blotting out the handwriting of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”

Therefore, tithing was nailed to the cross along with Jesus.

For those who wish to continue observing the Old Testament laws, please consider:

1 Timothy 1:8-10 (KJV)
8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Obinoscopy: Thank you my esteemed judges for your appraisals. I've noted my flaws and will improve on them in subsequent presentations.

TV01, your presentation was great. You also did good in your rebuttals. But the fact remains that there were some flaws in yours as well as mine. The judges pointed out those flaws for us to improve on them in subsequent presentations. Your trying to justify your presentation by faulting the judges appraisals is very wrong.

You need to display the spirit of sportsmanship. This is not a do-or-die affair. The fact that you lost out - albeit narrowly - doesn't mean that marriage shouldn't be a lifetime commitment. It might even surprise you to note that I, personally, am against divorce. I also strongly believe that marriage should be for life!

frosbel: Remember we are all brothers , let us continue in this spirit.

I still have not forgotten Ibadan, one of these days

Blessings.

frosbel: You don't quite agree with him, he believes the saved can draw back unto perdition, do you bro ?

You may want to ask Bidam , which part of him is eventually saved, spirit ? then what happens to the so called body or soul ?

Bidam: You are the guy contradicting yourself. Salvation of Man's spirit is instant...salvation of the soul and body is progressive.

Since you don't agree a man has spirit,soul and body,you will keep on becoming confused with ur funny theology.

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. - Ephesians 1

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. - Ephesians 4

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; - Hebrew 1

Tgirl4real: Audience and judges can ask their questions please...

frosbel: @ DrummaBoy

Are you a Calvinist ?

ajayikayod: Bros, evn d acceptance of d gospel requires d faith of a man thru his will not d sovereignty. Think i will appreciate if u can explain wat u mean by sovereignty of God.

ajayikayod: Bros, we dont hav powerful gospel nor does d gospel has power. D gospel itself is d Power. It doesnt possess ability, its d ability of God to d saving of d lost. In it also lies d demonstration of d Spirit Power. (1 Corith 2:4).

frosbel: absolutely , Jesus brought grace, not Paul and to even say that grace was not preached until Jesus died and resurrected is quite fallacious.

shdemidemi: Can't type much at the moment as I am using my phone but I will ask a few questions -

Please answer the question so we can audibly communicate.

You are yet to tell me what the good news is, I understand it is powerful. Please tell me what the 'powerful' gospel is.

Enigma: @ Drummaboy

Roman Catholics like to denigrate Luther in particular. But while Luther like all men was not perfect, thank God for what he did and his triggering of the Reformation.

Interestingly, some major Roman Catholics who were more faithful to Bible lessons and even "tradition" agreed with Luther on a number of things.