₦airaland Forum

Alwaystrue: ^^^^^
Whatever it may be...as I said earlier....God is the one who judges the motives. If it is due to carnal reasons, He knows. Many reasons often given are fleshly. It is either due to anger, jealousy, hatred, rebellion or an avenue not to even give so as to supposedly 'have more'. For a heart that truly loves knows what is right as God's word says and does.

Kudos Madame!

At least someone who insinuates that a person who said another person does not tithe but drives a 2006 Benz, and that makes the person rebellious, etc, is a lot better than another person who claims Jesus was a pharisee all in the bid to justify the tithe.

At least some people are doing a better job at "deducing" than I ever did.

Well done. Impressive!!

@ Alwaystrue

Enough of the hypocritical pious maneuvering. The title of the thread is The truth your Pastor would not tell you about tithes. If you are truly concerned about knowing what is in my heart, open a thread on it and title it: The Heart of DrummaBoy and quote me (albeit out of context), I will meet you there.

If you cannot do that, you may just shut up and stop derailing the thread.

Alwaystrue: Without wondering what even brought up this kind of comment, it really is a hint to understand now why some were tithing before and stopped. It is truly a thing of the heart, indeed.

However, God truly knows those who are rich towards Him with the right heart.

I am DrummaBoy, like Goshen 360 will say, and I endorse the above query. Especially the bolded.

The owner of the website www.letusreason.org, states this in regards to Kenneth Hagins and E W Kenyon's belief in faith and healing and how both of them died in contrast to their beliefs. The article is titled Death by Faith:

It was E.W. Kenyon in his book the Hidden man on pg.99 wrote, “I know that I am healed because he said that I am healed and it makes no difference what the symptoms may be in my body.” An example would be if they are coughing and you say you have a cough they respond by “no I don’t, I haven’t had a cough in years.” That’s called denial of reality at best, and lying at worst.

This is what was adopted by Kenneth Hagin who writes in his book “In the name of Jesus” on the topic of divine healing and health. “I have so often said, I haven’t had a headache in so many years (45 to be exact) ... Just a few months ago, as I left the office building and started home, suddenly my head started hurting, someone might say, “well, you had a headache. No, I didn’t have one! I don’t have headaches. I haven’t had a headache since August 1934. 45 years have come and gone. And I haven’t had a headache…but if I had a headache, I wouldn’t tell anybody. And if somebody asked me how I was feeling, I would say, I’m fine, thank you.” (In the Name of Jesus, p.44) Notice he says he wouldn't tell you how he really feels because his words override the pain. Is this honest? Is it true? Is this the way someone is to represent the Lord. Did Jesus teach this nonsense? Of course not.

E.W. Kenyon studied at the Emerson College of Oratory in Boston which was a hotbed at the time for the emerging New Age thought. They imagined they have discovered laws of faith, promoting a Christianized version of occultism.

Kenyon had divorced his wife even when he taught that what one speaks they will possess. E.W Kenyon who is certainly the Father of the Word of Faith Movement taught divine healing and that it was always God's will to heal. But he died in a coma, brought on by a malignant tumor. He died from disease.

Kenneth Hagin states: It is not God's will for any to be sick (Healing the fathers Provision, p.9 ) I believe that it is the plan of our father that no believer should be sick that every believer should live his life to full time and actually wear out if Jesus tarries then fall asleep in Jesus. I state boldly that it is not the will of God my father that we should suffer with cancer and other dread disease and reap pain and anguish. No its God's will that we should be healed.”

While Hagin says he has had no headaches, he had 4 major cardiovascular failures. But this is one of those incidents he's not telling you (Christianity in Crises, pp.237-238; a Different Gospel by D.L McConnell) Hagin suffered 4 separate episodes of heart-crisis in 1939, 1942, 1949, and 1973.

Hagin claims he was healed of numerous sicknesses a “deformed heart,” “paralysis,” and “incurable blood disease.” He also declared his “healing from the top of my head to the soles of my feet” on August 7, 1934, so that “every symptom of distress, deficiency and physical wrongness was driven out of my body,” perpetually. “I'm still healed after 49 years,” Hagin said. (Kenneth E. Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, 2d rev. ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1990, 48-49, 82-83.) His healing occurred on Tuesday of the “second week” of August 1934, or August 7, which was not the same date as the “second Tuesday” that month [August 14). Elsewhere Hagin gives various dates, such as “6 days before my 17th birthday [August 20, 1934,” which would be August 14, the “second Tuesday of August 1934”: (Kenneth E. Hagin, El Shaddai [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 19801, 24-25.) But see Kenneth E. Hagin, How You Can Be Led by the Spirit of God (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1978), 87 (healing on a “Thursday” in August 1934). In still another place Hagin claims his healing was on “August 8, 1934,” which was a Wednesday (Kenneth E. Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1981], 13.) Maybe Hagin needs his memory healed as well. (adopted from Christianity in Crises)

Kenneth Hagin died Sept. 23.2003 After eating breakfast his head fell to his chest. Charisma News Service reported that “An exact cause of death was not immediately known” Hagin had been hospitalized in a cardiac intensive care unit since Sept. 14, when he collapsed at home. (Charisma News Service September 23, 2003 edition People & Lifestyle) We later find out that was transported by an ambulance admitted to the cardiac intensive care unit and remained in the hospital until he died. This become an interesting point of contention because Hagin claimed he was healed of his heart problem supernaturally years before. He also held to the belief that one should actually wear out, not die this way.

Read the rest of the article in http://www.letusreason.org/Wf25.htm

If you found it difficult to read through the article above, you could read the bolded emphasis.

Again, Wikipedia: this is some Critic of the Word of Faith movement

Additionally, many beliefs that the movement holds as essential are often criticised by some Christians as diverging from Christian orthodoxy. Christian author Robert M. Bowman, Jr. states that the word of faith movement is "neither soundly orthodox nor thoroughly heretical". One popular critic and opponent of The Word of Faith, D.R. McConnell of Oral Roberts University, [size=16pt]has charged in a thesis entitled Kenyon Connection, that Kenyon adopted the teachings of New Thought and relabeled them[/size]. Thus, the Word of Faith movement, in McConnell’s view, constitutes a "Trojan Horse". This argument was the primary conclusion reached by McConnell’s master’s thesis published as a book, A Different Gospel.

Similar criticisms were made by William DeArteaga and Robert Bowman. Formerly of the Christian Research Institute, DeArteaga concedes some new thought influence in Kenyon's teaching, but he argues that Kenyon's views helped the church rediscover some biblical truths. The primary work in defense of this theory is DeArteaga's Quenching The Spirit. Arguing similarly but in an opposite direction is Bowman, whose Word-Faith Controversy is more sympathetic to Kenyon's historical background yet more critical of his doctrine than DeArteaga.

Baptist evangelist Justin Peters, an outspoken critic of the Word of Faith movement who wrote his Master of Divinity thesis on Benny Hinn and has appeared frequently as an expert on Word of Faith pastors in documentaries and TV news stories, traces the movement's origins to the late 19th and early 20th centuries (Phineas Quimby's New Thought Movement, Mary Baker Eddy's Christian Science) in his seminar "A Call for Discernment". In contrast, Pastor Joe McIntyre, now head of Kenyon’s Gospel Publishing Society in Washington State, argues that the primary influences of Kenyon were A.B. Simpson and A.J. Gordon of the Faith Cure branch of the Evangelical Movement. McIntyre’s version is told in the authorized biography, E.W. Kenyon: The True Story.

One of the earliest critics of the teaching was Oral Roberts University professor Charles Farah, who published From the Pinnacle of the Temple in 1979. In the book, Farah expressed his disillusionment with the teachings, which he argued were more about presumption than faith.
That same year, Pentecostal scholar Gordon Fee wrote a series of articles denouncing both the health and the wealth gospels. In 1982, one of Farah's students, Daniel Ray McConnell, submitted a thesis to the faculty at Oral Roberts University arguing that Kenyon was the father of the teaching, that Hagin had plagiarized his doctrines from Kenyon, and that the unique doctrines of the Word of Faith were heretical. McConnell's thesis was published as the book A Different Gospel in 1988.

One of McConnell's classmates, Dale H. Simmons, published his own research in earning a doctorate at Drew University. Simmons argued that Kenyon was influenced by heterodox metaphysical movements and the Faith Cure movement of the nineteenth century. In 1990, The Agony of Deceit was published as a conglomeration of critiques of Word of Faith doctrines. One of the authors, Christian Research Institute founder Walter Martin, issued his personal judgment that Kenneth Copeland was a false prophet and that the movement as a whole was heretical.[citation needed]

In 1993, Hank Hanegraaff's Christianity in Crisis charged the Word of Faith movement with heresy and accused many of its churches of being "cults." He accused the Word of Faith teachers of "demoting" God and Jesus, and "deifying" man and Satan. Hanegraaff is derided within the Word of Faith community as a present-day "Christian Witch Hunter."[citation needed] Hanegraaff has focused a significant portion of his anti-heresy teaching since the 1990s on addressing and refuting Word of Faith teachings.

Other critics, such as Norman Geisler, Dave Hunt and Roger Oakland, have denounced Word of Faith theology as aberrant and contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Critics have also condemned the teachings on wealth, arguing that the Bible condemns the pursuit of riches.
The "health and wealth" teachings had been heavily criticized, with opponents arguing that Word of Faith teachers[who?] tend not to stress some scriptures warning against emphasis on material prosperity and telling of the importance of helping the poor.[citation needed]
John Piper points out that Christ warned the apostles that they would suffer great persecution[30] for the sake of his name (except John, all eleven, after Judas Iscariot, suffered martyrs' deaths). In a January 2006 sermon entitled "How our Suffering Advances the Gospel," Piper stated bluntly that "the prosperity gospel will not make anybody praise Jesus; it will make people praise prosperity."

Joagbaje: Pant of lies ! Keep up the drama

It wasn't written for you to believe. You could even say that Drummaboy is Pastor Kun, it doesn't change anything. Truth is truth, lies can't subtract from it.

Same with the issue of tithing!

Christians [size=32pt]cannot [/size]loose their salvation. Pure and Simple!!

Consider this scripture: Romans 5:17-19

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Read the whole chapter that started with Romans 5:1 - Now that we are justified by faith, we have peace with God.

Romans 5 is talking about our new nature in Christ. Adam's sin gave us a sin nature without doing anything except that we are born human beings. Same way the second Adam, Jesus, obedience gave us a righteous nature that becomes ours when we are born-again. This righteous nature, like the sin nature, is not dependent on what we do but simply bc we are born of God.

The subject of wether christians can loose their salvation is the oldest debate in Christendom. The Arminians and Calvinists took up arms against each other in the English civil war bc ot it. Wesley vs. Whitefield. etc.

When I consider the argument and the so called vision of people loosing their salvation, I come to one realization: spiritually no one Jesus has saved can be lost but some Christians will be lost: How? Because some people who profess the Christian faith never truly found the Lord but lived all their lives in religion. They will loose their salvation bc they were never really saved.

It begs the question of the means of people coming to Christ today. Are people truly led to the Lord or all we have is easy believism? That is why the gospel that teaches money, money, money must be contended against bc such "gospels" never really saves people.

The question is not whether people can loose their salvation. The questions is are our ministers preaching the gospel that can save men?

Joagbaje: More Oshob ids . It's unecessary

I do not believe this comment is necessary.

I do not have multiple ID's but even if I do, what will be my profit: to give the impression that many people agree with my position? Nonsense! The fact that a lot of people agree to something doesn't make it right. It might give an impression that one side is "winning" but if a person is truly concerned about what God thinks, such a thing will never be his/her priority.

I had the wonderful experience of meeting kunleoshob (Pastor Kun) in Lagos about a month ago. As we discussed while he drove me to the motor park in his 2006 Benz car (I told him: "how come you drive a car like this and you don't pay your tithe?" lol), the impression I got of him was not of someone who will waste valuable time making multiple ID's to drive home his point of tithing. If anything, I think Pastor Kun has made his point. After writing that article in the OP, it was published in Newspapers and magazines. How many us have had such privileges? How he makes out time to come discuss tithing on a rowdy forum like this beats my imagination, despite his having to contend for time in a thriving business he heads. It shows someone that has a sincere love for Christ's church and would want people to come to the knowledge of truth.

Joagbaje, some of you could take a cue from Kun rather fleecing God's people of their hard earned resources; find a job to do - although I can tell you that making up multiple ID's to support tithing will not put food on your table!

From wikipedia, this is an introduction to the Word of Faith

Word of Faith (also known as Word-Faith or simply Faith) is a worldwide Christian movement that teaches Christians can access the power of faith or fear through speech. Its distinctive teachings are found on the radio, internet, television, and in many Christian churches.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] It shares some similarities with Pentecostal and charismatic believers. The basic doctrine preached is that of wealth and health through the a positive confession.

The Word of Faith movement has many distinctive teachings including physical, emotional, financial, relational, and spiritual healing or prosperity for any who has the right belief filled confesson.[8] The movement emphasizes choosing to speak the promises and provisions that the speaker wants, as an act of faith and agreement with God's plans and purposes. They believe this is what Jesus meant in Mark 11:22-23[bible 1], when he said believers shall have whatsoever they say and pray with faith. The term word of faith itself is derived from the biblical passage Romans 10:8[bible 2] which speaks of "the word of faith that we preach.

New Thought, sometimes known as Higher Thought,[1][2] promotes the ideas that Infinite Intelligence, or God, is everywhere, spirit is the totality of real things, true human selfhood is divine, divine thought is a force for good, sickness originates in the mind, and "right thinking" has a healing effect.[3][4]

Although New Thought is neither monolithic nor doctrinaire, in general, modern-day adherents of New Thought believe that "God" or "Infinite Intelligence" is "supreme, universal, and everlasting", that divinity dwells within each person, that all people are spiritual beings, that "the highest spiritual principle [is] loving one another unconditionally... and teaching and healing one another", and that "our mental states are carried forward into manifestation and become our experience in daily living".[3][4]

The New Thought movement is a spiritually-focused or philosophical interpretation of New Thought beliefs. Started in the early 19th century, today the movement consists of a loosely allied group of religious denominations, secular membership organizations,[citation needed] authors, philosophers, and individuals who share a set of beliefs concerning metaphysics, positive thinking, the law of attraction, healing, life force, creative visualization, and personal power.[5] The three major religious denominations within the New Thought movement are Religious Science, Unity Church and the Church of Divine Science. There are many other smaller churches within the New Thought movement, as well as schools and umbrella organizations. As of now, Infinite Intelligence can not be scientifically proven to exist.

Note the bolded and ask how this is any different from the Word of Faith?

This is what I read on Joseph Murphy from Wikipedia

Joseph Murphy (May 20, 1898 - December 16, 1981) was an Irish born, naturalised American author and New Thought minister, ordained in Divine Science and Religious Science.

Murphy was born in Ireland, the son of a private boys' school headmaster and raised a Roman Catholic. He studied for the priesthood and joined the Jesuits. In his twenties, an experience with healing prayer led him to leave the Jesuits and move to the United States, where he became a pharmacist in New York (having a degree in chemistry by that time). Here he attended the Church of the Healing Christ (part of the Church of Divine Science), where Emmet Fox had become minister in 1931.[1]

In the mid-1940s, he moved to Los Angeles, where he met Religious Science founder Ernest Holmes, and was ordained into Religious Science by Holmes in 1946, thereafter teaching at Rochester, New York, and later at the Institute of Religious Science in Los Angeles. A meeting with Divine Science Association president Erwin Gregg led to him being reordained into Divine Science, and he became the minister of the Los Angeles Divine Science Church in 1949, which he built into one of the largest New Thought congregations in the country. In the next decade, Murphy married, earned a PhD in psychology from the University of Southern California and started writing. After his first wife died in 1976, he remarried to a fellow Divine Science minister who was his longstanding secretary. He moved his ministry to Laguna Hills, Calif., where he died in 1981. His wife, Dr. Jean Murphy, continued in this ministry for some years afterwards.[1]

So Joseph Murphy is a New Thought teacher. What is New Thought? Again wikipedia:

I am doing a little study into the world of men who teach metaphysical healing and prosperity and I am comparing it to the teachings of the Word of Faith (WoF) Movement. The above title for this thread is taking from the book of one Joseph Murphy. A book I remembered reading many years ago but have now realized that the doctrines in that book has little distinction from that which the WoF adherents teach, except it does not mention the name Jesus.

Does anyone know anything about these teaching?

Thanks

Enigma: Bros, you don't know how much of your post reads to me! I am busy now and cannot say much!

Let me just say that years ago I often went to Westminster Chapel to listen to RT especially when he did a series called "School of Theology" (IIRC); RT is a good man and well meaning but forgive for saying this of a respected elder, he is/was a bit naive and at one point even allowed Rodney Howard Browne to desecrate the Chapel!

God bless you deeply, bros!

EDIT PS I forgot to add that I am a huge fan of the late Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones.

R. T. Kendall is a great teacher and I understand what your mean by his being naive. His book "Worshipping God" was next to the bible for me in my early days as a new convert. But reading his account on tithing now, I have a feeling he really does not believe the Reformed Theology he claims to espouse and may be playing to the gallery sometimes.

When I read Lloyd Jones wikipedia's account, I saw there that Lloyd Jones fell out with him on some theological matters to the extent that the old man requesting that Kendall should not officiate at his burial. I do not know if that account is true but it may lend credence to your position that Kendall could be naive. Nevertheless, the best of men are men at their best.

And that is why it is so wrong to uplift men and make them GO and such likes, as it is so common in the WoF movement. When they err, a whole generation can err with them as it is being seen with those following the teachings of Kenneth Hagin.

Enigma: I am confident in my mind that of all the groups claiming to be Christian, the two from which people are most rapidly turning away and to atheism are:

1. The Word of Faith aka WoF aka Prosperity Gospel ---- in Nigeria, this is particularly bad with its penetration of all kind of hustlers hoping to cash in on tithes and "dangerous" seeds etc such that we see such things as "Cutlass Sharp Sharp Ministry" (ok I made the name up but what we see is not far from that!)

2. The Roman Catholic church denomination ---- for all the good that this one has done, it is just too full of too many lies and frauds; and when in the face of that it seeks to claim "authority" and moral ground, yet its priests are not leaving small pikin yanshes alone ...........

But then very happily, there will always be a remnant!

I am a convert from both the Roman Catholic Church system and the Word of Faith movement. I was born to a Muslim father and a Roman Catholic mother. I was baptized in the RCC and was in that church till I committed my life to Jesus Christ in 1998. The man who led me to Jesus took me to his church, a pentecostal fellowship, with a strong persuasion towards the WoF, like most pentecostal churches in Nigeria.

I was full of zeal and wanted to know and have all that God wanted me to have. Unfortunately, though my Pastor was trained by Archbishop Benson Idhahosa, he was a disaster as far as gospel preaching was concerned. So I resorted to reading christian literatures and the bible. Most of the literatures that came my way at first by the WoF movements were very boring. Simply bc much of what they sold as doctrine in their books were not what I needed. I was saved quite alright but I was struggling with sin. I needed a doctrine to understand my sin nature and overcome it.

I eventually stumbled on Reformed Theology and that for me was the break. Although the man who introduced me to it, Dr R.T. Kendall, he succeeded Martyn Lloyd Jones at Westminster Chapel, London, taught tithing. That is why despite being Reformed in thinking, I still tithed. But for many years of tithing, I really felt there was something amiss about it: especially with the fact that there is no record of any Christian tithing in the bible.

Then came March this year, when I asked about tithing on this forum and the rest, they say, is history.

My point in all this is to agree with Enigma that God is saving many people from the WoF movement and the RCC, and I am a case in point. When you listen to the discuss of the pro-tithers on this forum, especially with those who have been honest enough to tell us where they fellowship in, you realize that every one them come from either the WoF movement or from churches that have such influences. That is why, if scriptural discusses do not work and these people refuse to admit that the bible does not teach what they claim it is teaching (in regards to tithing and other such practices), the very next step is to point out the errors in the lives, doctrine and practices of their teachers. So when you mention Adeboye, Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Hagin, Osteen, etc, these guys become very angry and defensive and begin to claim you are attacking personalities. They say these things because all of their lives beliefs and practices stem from what these men and women teach.

I am not afraid to name those who have influenced my theological outlook to life, after Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the bible. Anyone may check my teachers out and they can be sure they will not find skeleton in their cupboard. For example: Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones (1900-1981), Minister at the Westminster Chapel (1938-1968).

Q.E.D

Candour: This is rich coming from a 'scriptural giant' who claims emphatically that Christ was a Pharisee. Curiously non of your journey men jumped on that 'revelation' with you. Maybe they saw the wisdom in leaving you alone on that horribly flawed premise.

I will be glad and say thank you if you can show me where I said Moses predates Abraham so I can correct myself. Wrong doctrine must be expunged immediately.

And you with your septic tank of a mind and gutters for a mouth pouring forth filthy, obscene and raunchy invectives is the Christian right?

I'm not attacking Oyaks. If anything, i commend him for being honest about the reason for his tithing. He was emphatic about Malachi which makes him an adherent of Mosaic tithes. He didn't even make a single reference to Abraham. He was clear you pay tithe. You don't give it.

If only you and others can borrow some honesty from him and stand on something solid, it would have been good. Someone even said tithe started with God when he asked Adam not to eat of that one tree which was his tithe. Very laughable nonsense.

So what fruits exactly is your obsession with tithes producing? Other than filthy and obscene speaking?

Now search for the filthiest, raunchiest and most obscene invective you can find and hurl it at me. I won't complain. I believe I've earned it with this post.

@Candour

I missed the Oyakhilome piece on tithing. Pleases can you re-post it here? The one I saw was Adeboye's revelation on firstfruit. A thread the "most holy" Bidam and others wisely dodged.

Found it: https://www.nairaland.com/1189741/tithes-offerings/92#19108183. Thanks Candour!

@Bidam

I need to congratulate you on this latest revelation of Jesus being a Pharisee. Quite ingenious. Keep it up!

Bidam: hmmn..truth hurts doesn't it. I really hit you where it hurts.lol.

It is never late to retrace your step bro.

Your post shows you are the one habouring offenses.not me.

As for Pastor Chris issue,your post was so clear for all to see. You were on a smearing campaign with an attitude of superiority and condemnation.You were actually sowing evil seeds of discord.

I am just bringing it to your attention.

When did Chris Oyakhilome become an authority in gospel preaching? The last I checked he is yet to be admitted even in the Pentecostal Fellowship whose doctrines he claims to be espousing.

Image123: hohohoho, my lips are sealed. You're welcome again demisquare.

I am DrummaBoy and I commend this doctrine and practice. Possibly the best posting by Image123 ever since I have been reading you. Hopefully Bidam and Jo' can take a cue from this!

@ Deep Sight

Sorry to derail your thread a bit.

First, I must thank you for returning to NL though stating why you returned, like you did when you left, to me, is not neccesary. I only wish to remind you that you raised a pertinent question on another thread where you began a discuss (not debate) with Mr Anony.

Pls I wish to remind you that you have unfinished business on that thread and it may be good you return to it.

Thank you.

https://www.nairaland.com/1341464/anony-deep-sight-verse-verse/7

Goshen360: Christ is the firstfruit in the shadow of the law that is already fulfilled - 1 Corinthians 15:23. Stop allowing men to deceive you.

So very well said.

frosbel: crooks

Frosbel. We miss you O. Pls whenever you plan to make a trip to Lagos, let have a meeting of Friends of Frosbel and get to meet this "trouble maker" face to face. Now that you're withdrawing from NL little by little for obvious reasons, it would be good we meet you. You know Tgril4real had proposed it before and I am seconding it.

Ukuts gp: if u dnt know, apostle's feet offering is already in existence nw.

I have a feeling it is already happening but I have not come across any or heard of any. Have you?

First it was tithing; gotten from the Old Testament.

Then it is Firstfruits: also obtained from the Old Testament.

In the days to comes we shall have an offering called Apostle's Feet Offering: taken from Acts 4:35, the New Testament. In this kind of offering, you whole salary will be required to be taken to church and given to the Pastor. There would be some kind of communal living were the church will pay your children's fees, feed you and give you pittance for fuel in your car.

We will get there in the days to come because people will find scripture to legitimize any kind of fraud.

Where are the famous pro-tithers to lend support to Adeboye's teachings here? My own Pastor, who is an ardent supporter of Adeboye taught us that Firstfruit is not scriptural.

Ukuts gp: U could just do well to answer the remaining questions. @drummaboy

I think I have answered all the questions you asked me. Pls refer to the post again. It took sometimes but I think I answered it all.

Or do you still have questions on tithing?

I am very glad to see the responses to the posts above. Growth in the kingdom is through understanding; when we understand the gospel of Christ, it is easy to grasp God with faith: Faith commeth by hearing and hearing the word of God.

Apart from www.tithing101.com by Gary Arnold, this web book first posted by frosbel (where is he?), helped me a great deal: http://tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/index.html. Nerramore answered some frequently asked questions on tithing and I recommend that you read it up. It is so easy to read.

The preface of the book offers a fine summary on it:

Preface

This book is about much more than tithing or not tithing. It's about setting people free from a wrong, religious mindset so they can experience the reality of New Covenant life in Christ. It's about recovering a glorious spiritual inheritance that Christians have been defrauded of, exposing wrong doctrines that negate Christ's finished work on the cross. It's about living like a righteous, new-creation son of God, born again through spiritual union with Jesus Christ by his resurrection from the dead. This book is just a beginning. Tithing is just the tip of the iceberg of carnal mentalities that dominate most of Christianity.

I was taught to tithe as a child and did so for many years without question. It was never a problem to me, spiritually or financially. I thoroughly agreed with the teaching and wasn't looking for any reason to contradict it. However, after many years of seeking God and studying his word, I have come to see the doctrine of tithing, and all other financial giving as well, in a new light—the revelation of the mystery of being in Christ.

I have two objectives in writing this book. One is that Christians would wake up and realize that tithing is part of the old carnal religious way of life and put it aside to enter the New Covenant way of living. The New Testament's description for this way of living is, in Christ. Religious traditions that man has created are the biggest obstacle to the glorious life of God that we were created to enjoy. Tithing is one of those well-meaning-but-misguided traditions.

Another objective is to equip Christians with a solid scriptural foundation to answer the constant barrage of teaching that is promoting tithing and keeping the church in a low-realm, religious mode of living. The doctrine of tithing has been mindlessly taught and accepted for so long that some of the most outstanding Christian leaders do not recognize how it contradicts the very foundation of the gospel they are preaching.

This book may challenge some of your deepest beliefs. It may contradict your most esteemed spiritual leaders. But no brother or sister in Christ is being personally judged or attacked. I appreciate those who have given their lives in service to the Lord and his church. The Bible tells us to "esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake" (1 Thess. 5:13). However, their teachings are at all times to be examined in the light of scripture.

This book exposes the error of some very popular teachings but does not accuse those who are teaching them. No names are ever mentioned, but you may recognize some statements. There are many well-known ministers, whom I greatly respect, that I have to disagree with when it comes to the subject of tithing.

Paul the apostle said in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, “we know in part” and “we see through a glass, darkly;” therefore, we can never expect perfect doctrinal unity. However, we can pursue a better knowledge of the truth and we can extend the love of God to one another in the process. If we disagree, we can do so respectfully. Each person must walk with God in the best way they know.

I ask you to lay aside preconceived ideas and traditional thinking, and prayerfully consider the message of this book. Its purpose is to move the church toward the highest and best that God has provided in Christ. I pray that it will be the beginning of a spiritual revolution in your life.

Ukuts gp:
1. What is tithe and how did it started?.

I want to say that my definition of the tithe before I stopped was: a tenth of my income or any financial increase. When I came to the this forum I was made to understand that there is no such thing. The tithe, by biblical definition, Leviticus 27:30-32, were tithing under Moses' laws is first mentioned, is a tenth of agricultural products obtained from the land God gave to the Israelites. This tithe is holy unto the Lord because it obtained from the holy land of God given to His chosen people, the Israelites. That is how the religious tithes mentioned under Moses started.

However, the first mention of tithing or a tenth, is in Genesis 14:20 when Abram gave a tenth of war spoils to Melchizedek. And as Kun has rightly mentioned, it was in keeping with the custom of his time to give a tenth of spoils to Kings and Preists in a land. But, when we come to discuss Hebrew 7, we shall realize there was more to that action of Abram than just keeping a tradition or custom.

Ukuts gp:
2. What is pre-law and tithing in the law?

Pre-Law tithing: This is tithing mentioned and practised before Moses or before Leviticus 27. The two pre-law tithing we have is that of Abram in Genesis 14 and Jacob in Genesis 28. Abram gave his own tithe but there is no record of Jacob giving the tithe he promised although God reminded his of his vow, God did not demand a tithe from him then.

Tithing in the Law: This is tithing according to the laws of Moses as mentioned in Leviticus 27, Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 14 and Malachi 3.

Ukuts gp:
3. How was tithing done in the old testament?

People tithed in the old testament according the laws of Moses. Apparently they tithed off the produce of the land both husbandary and agricultural products. Gary Arnolds in his webstie www.tithing101.org explained that God asked for the tithes from Israel off products on the land because those products were the result of his own efforts. God did not demand a tithe from these people's income bc an income is reward for man's effort but he wanted them to tithe from the increase that came by his divine efforts. When you sow a grain of wheat or rear an animal and get a bag of wheat or hundreds of offstrings from that animal, the result is not from your effort but from God's effort. So God said give a tithe of whatever increase I give you that came by my effort. There is no record of anyone paying a tithe on his income under Moses.

Ukuts gp:
4. Is there any difference you
u noticed between tithing in the bible and the one being
practiced now?

Tithing as practiced according to scripture was strictly tithing of agricultural products; tithing in our time is strictly on one's income. In the bible Abram tithed war spoils and he did so once. We do not collect Spoils of war today and if you check the times when Israel waged war, there was never a time God demanded the people to tithe spoils of war. The story in Numbers 31, or so, were God asked for war spoils to be divided, we see clearly it was according to certain proportions and they were never tithes. Many times war spoils are abominable to God. How tithing of agricultural products from God's holy land became tithing of salary is what only pro-tithers can tell you but the bible does not record such lessons. To show that tithing was never money, there is a passage in Deut 14, I think, that says that if were you live is too far from were you are to give the tithe, you should convert it to money; then take it there and then purchase those products back and add a fifth of its value to it (as if to discourage such conversions). If God wanted cash tithes, he would never have given such directions.

Ukuts gp:
5. Does malachi 3:8-12 support tithing?

Yes. Malachi supports tithing but tithing under Moses' laws. If we are a redeemed people under grace and the NT, we are not obliged to keep any of Moses' laws. Let us quote that scripture and permit me to lay some emphasis:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Please note that what God demanded in this scripture are tithes and offerings. Both of them are in the plural. A careful study of Numbers 18 and Deuteronomy 14 shows that there are atleast 3 types of tithes and that by the time the Isrealite would finish paying the tithes they would have given about 23% of their harvest. There were tithes to be given directly to the Levites; there were tithes to be given to widows and orphans; and there were tithes to be eaten by the tither himself; there were tithes to be given once after a harvest; there were tithes to be given once in three years. All of this tithes was what God demanded. All the tithes: note the plural. Question is which of these tithes should we pay? Answer: non! why? Because the tithes being demanded here were tithes required under Moses. Laws that are not applicable to Christians today. Even pro-tithers agree that this passage was directed at Israelites not Christians and the smart ones never use it to debate for tithing. On the other hands the offerings demanded by God here are the ones that are well documented in Leviticus 1ff: Meat offering; sin offering; purification offering; etc. I think the point is clear.

The NT does not demand that Christians give tithes and even offerings. Not once were offerings collected in the NT church. The closest we have to offerings are the collections Paul made for poor Christians in Jerusalem.

Ukuts gp:
6. Does matthew 23:23 support the tithe teaching in the new testament?

Read the scripture properly. Jesus was speaking to scribes and pharisees who were under the law. Understand that Jesus, the progenitor of grace, was born and lived under the law. This was done so he may fulfill the law and so that the righteous requirement of the law may be given to us. While he had not gone to the cross, Jesus lived the law and could not encourage anyone to break the law by saying they should not tithe. But note that our Lord was very concerned about some weighty matter of the law. Tithing was apparently not one of them. If you check Jesus life and ministry well, you will realize that he came to show us how to keep the weighty demands of God. There is no weightier demand than for us to love God and our neighbors. Tithing was of the law and after his death and Resurrection the law has been declared null and void (Hebrew 8:13). We are under a new law of liberty: the law of love. We are not to cirucumcize, tithe, keep the sabbath or anyone of Moses laws.

Note also, that the products that Jesus spoke of mints and cummins, were agricultural products. Even in Matthew 23:23 Jesus never asked anyone to tithe his salary.

Ukuts gp:
7. Who is mechizedec in the bible?

Melchizedek is recorded to be King of Salem or Priest of the Most High God in Genesis 14. We see him recorded as a King and Preist in other parts of scripture including Hebrew 7. In truth and verity no one can say of certaninty who Melchizedek is. mko 2005 gave an excellent piece in another thread on Melchizedek being Jesus. And I applaud him for that but even if Melchizedek was Jesus, it is still not a reason for Christians to tithe today.

We see in Hebrew 7 that Abraham paid tithe to Melchizedek and so Levi also gave tithe, bc he was in Abraham loins. Jesus is said to be a descendant of Judah, who is a son of Abraham too and so Jesus paid tithe, like Levi, to Melchizedek in Abraham's loins. What does this mean? It means what we already know: that Jesus came to fulfill the law that the righteous requirement of the law (Rom 8:4) could be given to us. JESUS PAID TITHES TO MELCHIZEDEK SO WE ALL HAVE PAID TITHES TO MELCHIZEDEK AND NEED NOT PAY ANYMORE. That is what it means to fulfill or establish the law. So regardless of who Melchizedek is, Jesus has paid it all and no one is under any obligation to a pay a tithe to anyone under this dispensation.

Ukuts gp
8.what is Hebrew 7 all about? Is it supporting tithing?

Let us quote the first four verses of Hebrew 7:

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

The bolded is the purpose of Hebrew 7: to show the greatness of the priesthood of Melchizedek. A priesthood so great that Abraham paid a tithe to him. If Abraham paid a tithe to him, then even Levi and the Aaronic priesthood paid a tithe to Melchizedek and Melchizedek even went further by blessing Abraham. It is the greater that blesses the lesser. So Melchizedek priesthood is great and greater than Aaron's.

This line of argument needed to be pursued to help the Hebrews to whom this letter is written to grasp the greatness of the priesthood of Christ. Christ priesthood is compared to that of Melchizedek and we see that Melchizedek priesthood is greater than Aaron's, so Jesus' priesthood is greater than Aaron's. The Hebrew saw the High Priest as the highest spiritual authority in the land and if it can be shown that Jesus' priesthood was greater than Aaron's then the priesthood of Jesus can be better appreciated.

Then verse 11-12 seals the discuss:

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

1. Aaron priesthood could not bring perfection. Only Jesus priesthood can.

2. With a change of priesthood also came a change of laws.

3. The levites had commandment or laws (v.5) to take tithes from Israel. However, with a change of laws also came a change of that law also. There is no more a law to collect tithes.

I want to go further by saying that Hebrews was written AD64 or thereabout. By AD70 Jerusalem had been ransacked by the Romans bringing an end to the order of the levithical priesthood. By the time the Jews were restored to their land in 1948, not one person could trace his ancestry line to the Aaron. God himself ended the levithical priesthood as stated in verse 11-12. Today Jews can trace their line to Judah, Benjamin and a few other tribes but not one person can trace his line to Aaron. Why? Because there is a new order.

Even Jews no longer pay tithes to anyone. The reason why tithes were never mentioned with the apostle was bc only the levites collected tithes and neither Jesus, Paul or any of the apostles were levithes. How our modern pastors and churches have suddenly turned Levithical is the eight wonder of the world!

Ukuts gp:
9. Does tithing negate the message of grace? how?

Yes it does and that is the biggest reason to contend against it. If we are asked to pay a tithe and made to understand that it is obligatory, then what happens to what Jesus did on the cross? Why is it that what Christ did to purchase or redeem us from sin is not enough? Why do we have to pay a tithe to complete our redemption? We must understand that in every generation, the grace of God has always been contended against. In the days of Paul it was circumcision. And the circumcision argument was solid, in fact even more solid than that of tithing. Circumcision also was before the law. Circumcision had the express command of God in Genesis 17, with God saying anyone that is not circumcised is cut off from Israel. Circumcision was the very mark of being a Jew and of one having a covenant with God but Paul in Galatians argued boldly that anyone who sought to be circumcized to be accepted by God after knowing Jesus had fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). Circumcision was both pre law and under the law. Same with tithing: which is both pre law and under the law.

The biggest argument against the law: ie, circumcision and tithing do not even come from Paul but from Jesus. Our Lord made it clear that no one could put new wine in old wine skin; neither can you put old wine in new wine skin. It will produce a wreck. This he said in response to the pharisees protest against his disciples living the new covenant lifestyle albeit under the law. The Old Testament were marked by laws of tithing, circumcision, etc but the new covenant are not marked with such laws, but with the law of love. To bring the old into the new is to make void the grace of God. So, yes, tithing negates the grace of God. It gives the impression that we can buy God's blessing, when in reality we are debtors to his grace and mercy and cannot pay for anything He gives us, save to receive them with thanksgiving.

Ukuts gp
10. If we are sons of Abraham by faith, and Abraham pay tithe does that not imply that we should pay tithe?

Abraham did many things my brother and if we are to do those things we will make a shipwreck of our faith. Abraham lied. Abraham slept with his house help. Abraham had concubines. Etc. It is Abraham's faith we called to imitate and not every minute detail of his life. The reason why Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek was prophetic. So that a day will come when the Hebrews could understand that there is a greater priesthood to the one they have and submit themselves to the One who represented that priesthood which is Christ. Abraham also did other things that were prophetic: like his purchase of a burial site; which will turned out to be the place from which the dead will arise when Jesus died and many others. Abraham faith (Romans 4; Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3) is what we are to imitate.

Ukuts gp
11. Does anyone who doesn't pay tithe a robber?

It very interesting to me when ministers rail from the pulpit that anyone who doesn't pay a tithe is robbing God. First it shows that they are taking there justification for tithing from the law, ie Malachi, which is an extenstion of the law. Next, it shows their lack of understanding of scriptures. Jesus called only one set of people robbers in the bible and they were not innocent worshipers; rather they were religious leaders like our ministers today. Jesus said they had turned his Father's house to a den of theives (robbers). When Pastor drive luxury cars; fly private jets; wear expensive suits; live in mansions; etc, with the source of their livelihood from the tithes, offerings and seeds of innocent and poor worshipers, who do you think is robbing God?

The true robbers of God's treasury know themselves and God knows them. They are certainly not those who do not subject themselvs to a law of bondage that brings them to tithe today.

Ukuts gp
12. How can the work of God move on without tithing?

This is a treatise on its own. But I would attempt it. How was God work funded in the NT?

1. We had proof that ministers like Paul worked as tent makers; could it be that our own Pastors need to work also and fend for themselves and their families and not have to look up to the church to give them money and thus cook up scriptures to legitimize fraud?

2. The NT encourages believers to give to their ministers. But we must judge their work before we do this: those who have labored in doctrine are worthy of a double portion. God's people should judge the minister's work and decide by themselves what to give him.

3. In an organized church setting were the people can afford to employ a minister, that minister is worthy of a pay.

4. Ministers themselves should live by the faith they teach their members. Jesus and his apostles were neither part time or full time ministers; they were both. There was no such thing in their time. They were so consumed with the enormity of the work that they plunged into it: money or no money. But God is faithful and saw to it that they lacked nothing. Our ministers can imitate this.

5. The church should concern itself with what the apostles were concerned about next to ministry and that is to take care of the poor. The collection mentioned under Paul was only for the poor and not for ministers. Let us get our priorities right; let God consume his people and let us watch him move them to give gracefully without coercion, witchcraft or out of obligation in the name of tithing.

Ukuts gp
13. How did the bible suggest we should give?

Hundreds of ways: but the central theme there is FREE WILL OFFERING OR GRACE GIVING.

Ukuts gp
14. Is it tithing that brings about God's blessing or what?

Ephesians 1:3, says we are blessed bc of our position in Christ and not because of what we do. We cannot purchase God's blessing. It is incumbent on God to bless his children. I have children and they never worry about food, school fees, cloths or any such thing. Last two months my wife emptied her account to purchase cloths for our first child. There she was beaming in her new cloths but not realizing the sacrifice that have gone into it. Same with God and us. God will bless bc it is his nature to and how much more will He give us His children: Oh, you of little faith. Read Matthew 6:19ff all over again and grasp God's providence to all men and his particular provision to His own.

I really hope you have gotten something out of this discuss. I am resigning from tithe debates on NL but will respond to anyone who desire to know truth in the inward man. I invite you to read through my blog below at my signature. There is an article there: "I Cannot Afford to be A Christian" that is causing a lot of trouble for me in my local assembly. This position of not tithing is very unpopular and God knows how much I have suffered (and is ready to suffer) to uphold the truth. This is what Paul call the offense of the cross: our commitment to upheld the grace of God and to ensure it is untainted by the law!

Ukuts gp: i wud be glad to know the totality of this tithe thing that is preached every sunday in church. I need to be convinced first b4 i join ur crusade . I nid answers to those basic questions.

I sense you are someone who sincerely wants to know the truth and by God's grace you will know it and it will set you free. I have thought to resign from tithes debates on this forum and focus on my blog were I find people visiting to learn truths. But how can one not respond to a sincere seeker. I will try to respond to you questions one after the other, although I see that Kun, my Oga at the top, is doing a good job already but I will add my little cent.

@ Candour

Indeed it is very neccesary that we be reminded of scriptures like this.

This was the scripture I quoted when I wrote my Pastor asking him of the need for the church to account for the finances that comes to them through tithes, offerings, seeds and vows. I was ignored and given the impression that I was "questioning God".

I am thankful to God they ignored me because it made me to question the scriptural basis of my giving to that assembly and the rest, like they say, is history. O yes, I stopped tithing.

I find it difficult to understand why men think they can be accountable to God they cannot see when they cannot account to men they can see. Apostle Paul showed us in that scripture that the mark of integrity is to show accountability to both God and men, and it is something our ministers can imitate today.

Mark Miwerds: Oyedepo, in his book, said that God will give you divine protection when you tithe.

Must've been God's day off the day mother fell and broke her back. And to think she had been tithing faithfully for more than half a century.

I sound angry? I am. And I should be when preachers such as Oyedepo lie to people in order to extort money from them.

So it is from Oyedepo that Image123 and his crew are getting their revelations on tithing. No wonder. I have stopped contributing to these debates bc it is so obvious there is something wrong with those who hold on tenaciously to tithing despite having been shown otherwise. I wish them all the best in their pursuit, worship and followership of Oyedepo and his heretical teachings.

christemmbassey: @mko, ur posts resembles yahoo yahoo sales copy, y? By careful o, tithe fraud is very dangerous o, if u r a pastor, go n work, God has put so much in u, don't b a waste.

Permit me to introduce my e-friend christembassey. Do not allow his monicker fool you, he is not a pastor at the Christ Embassy Church bc I can bet you that the day he ministers there the church will either close down or my friend will be burnt at the stakes!

Lol!!

Jokes apart, Christembassey is the worst enemy of tithe collectors and advocates. Testimony: once we had a convention. Nice gathering of e-theologians and the last to present was my friend: What did he say? 'Tithing is the Oga at the top...' of all false doctrine and anytime I remember that statement, I just crack up real bad.

Some people will be saved from this tithe fraud but the majority will remain defrauded. Just as the majority of Christendom today is Catholic despite the Reformation!

@ m.k.o2005

Hebrew 7 shows us that Christ's priesthood can be likened to that of Melchizedek and does not teach that Jesus is Melchizedek. Such conclusion can only be made by a pre conceived mindset and not from what scriptures says.

Jesus Priesthood had to be likened to Melchizedek to help the Hebrew readers appreciate who this Jesus was and to see that His priesthood was GREATER than than that of Aaron, so that the readers may appreciate this new covenant and NOT SO THAT THEY COULD BEGIN TO TITHE THEIR INCOME.

Hebrew 7 also shows clearly that this priesthood proceeds from Judah, a tribe that doesn't collect tithe. How Jesus didn't collect tithes on earth but now needs it in heaven is simply incredible.

The biggest errors of our times proceeds from so called revelations on scriptures people receive beyond what the text of scripture truly says.

BTW, there are no records of Jesus, his apostles, Paul, or any 1st gen leaders collecting tithes. When did this revelation then begin?

Tgirl4real: ^^^And still on this tithe matter.

@ Drummerboy,

Howz d family?

I dey O, my sister. In fact my hand full now sef but One got to do what one gotta do.

This is one reason I contend tithing earnestly: I became a Christian and was discipled in a Pentecostal church but immediately I discovered there was something wrong with their teachings.

It was the prosperity gospel. I researched, prayed, debated and studied hard but never understood why the thing was so ingrained in the church.

When God began to spur me to study tithing, I never knew that that will be were I will find my answers.

Tithing must be shown for what is truly is bc

1. It discredits the gospel of grace: the doctrine of the NT
2. It feeds a gospel that confuses grace and law
3. Tithing is modern day circumcision error
4. Tithing benefits a greedy clergy
5. Tithing encourages religion and not sincere worship of God.
6. ETC.

God is at the root of exposing the errors of tithing.

Alwaystrue:
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe MOSES SPOKE NOTHING concerning PRIESTHOOD.
15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
16 who has come, not according to the law of a FLESHLY COMMANDMENT, but according to the power of an endless life.
17 For He testifies: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the FORMER COMMANDMENT because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

I am the Drummaboy and I ENDORSE this truth, especially the capitalized and bolded.

Bidam: Kindly show us from scripture where this lie you stated was mentioned.

Galatians 1:8-9

That scripture is a sound word of rebuke to those who confuse law with grace; the very error of tithe advocates.

As for the other issue U raised on my post, a newbee on this forum, Bobbysworld28, has answered you very adequately.