₦airaland Forum

Maynmann:
You said “The creator is far beyond the creation, so when and how will it claim ownership?

Ha! You really are too stupid that even the phone in your hand shouted! Please eh, let's never talk again, you are too stupid to talk to.

Wilgrea7:
This is a nice analogy, but it really doesn't relate to the situation at hand.

Your idea of the existence of both Nestle, ragolis and eva water implies that there are subjective solutions to the problem of thirst.

The solution to your thirst will always be either a subject or subjects eg nestle bottled water lying on the way of the thirsty man (subject) vs. water in a pail, water in a cup, water in a bottle, wine, coke, bear in a shop on the way of the thirsty man (subjects). All are subjects, whether found together or discovered separately, hence it is always subjective. So subjective is not in issue at all.

So get back to the issue. Can you answer the question I asked which flows from your declaration that "things can not create themselves?"

Wilgrea7:
I'm not avoiding your question. You're tying to ask me a question based on a presupposing idea you already have. So in a way, your question is biased.

The accurate statement is "a leading question" and it is not biased as you knew from the beginning because it is a natural question which flows from the basis of your alternate answer "Anything which begins to exist has a cause."

Which is why I asked in other words
"Does a thing create itself?"

And you answered evasively and inconclusively

"No, I don't believe that something can necessarily come from nothing."

And then you cancelled it by solidly saying
"Anything which begins to exist has a cause. I agree". (Now you are no longer sure. No "necessarily" or any manner of uncertainty.

Which means you impliedly answer my questions that "Things do not create themselves"!

So do you now see how you have been evasive and dodgy since until this confession above which leads to my question

Wilgrea7:
We agree that a thing (in this case, the universe) had a cause.

Look again, you would see I narrowed it down to things that are without dispute by saying "IN THIS WORLD and the things in it".

We know this world very well, and none of us can claim to be an expert in the moon and sun and the space or spaces between earth and them, AS WE HAVE NEVER GONE THERE TO OBTAIN FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF THOSE THINGS.

BUT ALL OF US ARE EXPERTS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE THINGS IN THIS WORLD, SO WE CAN GIVE TRUTH FULL TESTIMONY HERE.

Therefore, my question still stands flowing from your confession that "things can not create themselves."

So, you are supposed to supply an answer to my question.

modskiller:
You own a Honda?

Which model and year please?

O4 CRV.

Maynmann:
If creators are beyond reach of their creation, how did iphone know it was Steve Jobs that created it?
How did you know it was cannanite Yahweh that created you?

You asked this before and I answered them.

Maynmann:
You just say hogwash.
It’s the creator that called it iPhone, the creator can choose to call it android tomorrow that does not make it less of a CELL PHONE.

And the issue is not about "the name A Creator chooses to call his creation" which is always my issue with you. In your attempt to poke holes, you go off topic and start making tsunamis in a table spoon.

Wilgrea7:
I think there's a misunderstanding here. To say that there are "other" possibilities, denotes the idea that there are other possible ways to explain the first independent cause. And if there are, what makes them not worth the consideration?

1) Simply because whenever we are searching for something we want eg when you thirst and you find a bottle of Nestle Water to drink, you do not divert
from that place to go searching whether there might be Ragolis or Eva Water.

UNLESS YOU HAD ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND (PRE-JUDGED) THAT YOU DO NOT LIKE THE NESTLE WATER YOU FOUND.

Which means that you already know nestle water (so it is not an enquiry) and you already had decided against it by your own personal parameters, hence your response of rejection of it.

That is why you are biased even before you found the Nestle water.

And this is on top of the fact that you have still refused to attend to the question I put to you

"does it not mean that A thing is created because an Intelligent Creative Being brings it from "No thing" to "something?"

2) When engaging in a truthful search, we are already acting on the available settled Truths which is why I asked, "does it not mean that A thing is created because an Intelligent Creative Being brings it from "No thing" to "something?" which you have avoided answering.

And you already know that answering or refusing to answer reasonable questions also shows all of us, what is True!

And your response query to my response on it being based on an intelligent creative Being, can not be taken without you answering the question.

So, bear in mind all your queries and supply your answer to my question first. Then I will deal with both your answer and your query, if any.

Maynmann:
How then did the iPhone know it’s Steve Jobs that created him?

1. No other person claims ownership of it anywhere.
2. It is in its owners house.
3. It does not see any other potential owner fighting it's suspected owner over it.

[quote author=Maynmann post=113972203]How did iphone arrive at that particular name if they are so far apart and beyond reach?

Your stupidity has no end! iPhone can not name itself and every reasonable person knows that man is greatly greater by far from his phone hence the word "far apart and beyond reach.

But stupid people like you also have a place in nairaland.

Wilgrea7:
I never said I don't want “God".

Action speaks louder than words!

Wilgrea7:
What exactly is this clear and undisputable answer?.. i said if you're going to go from “a first independent cause" to a “God", then there needs to be some sort or proof for it. Because the idea of a God seems to try to explain the nature of this independent first cause, and therefore, it needs to provide some proof to back up it's claim.

It was you who raised this “first independent cause" thing and I did not go this way.

Following your "Anything which begins to exist has a cause. I agree

But then, what is the cause? " I asked

"Therefore, standing on this Truth does it not mean that A thing is created because an Intelligent Creative Being brings it from "No thing" to "something?"

And you refused to answer this but went on to the search of "other possibilities" without laying any real one.

This is of course a clear act of avoidance!

LocalStandard1:
I think he is so outside reason that some say he doesn't exist. No quantification.

That is what it means to be A Creator. Creators are beyond the reach of their creations eg look at where Mr. Toyoda to his Camry or Steve Jobs to his iPhone.

They are far far apart from their creations.

LocalStandard1:
Oh! Sorry for I thought you where against.

Thank you for that wonderful verse. It shows us that even time is within the influence of the Most High. Then what can compare to him?

No thing can be compared to Him. He is too too Mighty to be compared.

Wilgrea7:
Not necessarily. There are many possibilities for what could have caused the event that created our universe as we know it today. And while "an intelligent creative being" is one of the possibilities, we can't know for sure until we discover proof for an "intelligent creative being".

And this is where your "I don't want God," The Intelligent Being shows,

For how long are you going to wait to see the clear and undisputable answer before you?

This is the proof of rejection I had warned you about which blinds you I wanna be atheists from accepting The Truth right before your eyes.

We don't see you waiting for any alternative as to who is the creator of the Toyota or the iPhone

But when it comes to God, now, you are seeking for options which of course we reasonable know and see that it is based on your personal wishes and desires.

So, you see, it is not because you do not know The Truth but because you do not want to accept the Truth.

Hope2014:
The thief at the cross was he qualified or unqualified. I believe most worst sinners who genuinely humble themselves and repent are more honoured by God for salvation than many who claim holiness out of pride.

Yep! He gave Sound Perfect Sweet "Just is" and Truth, to The Lord where The Lord was given the evil of "not-just-is" aka "injustice", while admitting and even confessing THE TRUTH that he was guilty and deserved punishment!

A very sweet good when you are wickedly and murderously and wrongly accused.

A Sweet gift, given to The Lord!

What did Ron Kenoly teach about giving?

"When you give, give to The Lord!"

Hope2014:
Sure. But you and DTruthSpeaker accept it is the grace of God that saves

Exactly as you are only employed because the employer exercises his grace to employ you, as proven by the fact that even though you have the requisite certificates and skill, the employer can still say "I would never hire you. Leave my office"

Which on the flip side "he can say you are hired" even though you have no certificate.

But certainly "just is" and Law dictates that unqualified persons can never be hired and only qualified persons are always hired. Parable of the talent shows you and the warning about servants.

And God is Always Following Law and "Just is" and that is why you never see any single case of an Unqualified person being saved by God!

No not one! No not one!
Even this hymn warns us to struggle

"Jesus knows all about our struggles,
He will guide till the day is done;"

LocalStandard1:
I never discribed time as sunset or rise.
I discribed it as change and distance. Those are realities even in space.

Which is still under the experience of man, a subject under this "time" while he still breathes.

LocalStandard1:
1. Speed Of Light

and,

2. Time.

By now you might have guessed right. Drum roll please!!

God is Time.

It is written He Wraps Himself with Light! Psalm 104:

And the Hillsong music "Here Now(Madness)" answers you.

"Skies spin their dance within Your breath
Time runs its race within Your hand
And my mind runs wild to comprehend
What no mind on earth could understand"

Wilgrea7:
No, I don't believe that something can necessarily come from nothing.

Anything which begins to exist has a cause. I agree

But then, what is the cause? And what proof do you have for said cause?

I don't need you to believe. But I know you are clearly saying that it is impossible for something to come out from nothing.

And this is the first Truth.

Therefore, standing on this Truth does it not mean that A thing is created because an Intelligent Creative Being brings it from "No thing" to "something?

Hope2014:
Just accept grace of God. Many seek to be saved as Jesus said.

And yet they do the very things that annoy Jesus, how can they ever be saved?

Go check the Bible and see if you shall ever find one sinner who was sinning yet God saved him. And don't you dare say David or Solomon or Abraham or Moses and any of those people you would say. Except for Solomon, all these people regretted their wrong doings AND DISCONTINUED THEIR MISTAKES.

There is no excuse whatsoever.

If you want to be saved then walk in the paths that lead to being saved, It's as simple as that!

But I thank The Lord that your response here just shows and proves how all the statements of the God which you people WRONGLY USE to wrap yourself and your sins, is not valid

Wilgrea7:
Ok... Very interesting.

So if I may ask, what is this pure, untainted and objective truth, and what methods did you use to arrive at it?

I'm talking about objective truth in regards to religion and the existence of a god/gods

Simple! Use your senses especially your eyes and brain, IN THIS WORLD, (for the idea and inquisition of God and about God is in and on this world alone, so everything must start and end in this world) have you ever seen a thing create itself?

Is it possible for a thing to create itself by itself? That is from nothing, the nothing thing made itself into a something thing. Eg a flying submarine will make itself from nothing into a flying submarine. Is this ever possible?

Hope2014:
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Go and read that case again. Moses was trying to stop God from punishing people who will fully chose to annoy God at a most important Holy time, even in defiance of Aaron's Clear Warning!

So, how can Moses be stopping God from punishing the guilty? That is what brought about God's Answer to him

Same for the Egyptians you see them already doing evil to the Israelites 400 years worth, even before Moses was born and God spoke of "hardening of heart"

There is no excuse whatsoever.

If you want to be saved then walk in the paths that lead to being saved, It's as simple as that!

Wilgrea7:
Yes... The truth can lead someone away from their religion... But the truth doesn't have to be another religion.

Saying the truth can never lead someone to atheism assumes you know what the truth MUST be

Without any presumptions and assumptions, I do know what the Purest Undefiled and Untainted Truth is which is why I am always willing and ready to go through the proper and valid processes of filtering and arriving at the Purest Truth again and again to show anyone that the end result is always the same as I have given and stated in the beginning.

Hope2014:
Meaning they willingly knew how to position themselves to be saved. But the Scriptures says It is not by Power Nor By Might but by my Spirit says the Lord of Host.

Now you see the importance of Listening to God, Speaki

"Through desire A MAN, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom". Proverbs 18:1

And every man can do these things if they truly want to for John 1:4 and 9.

"He is the Light that lighteth all men"

"Greater is He that is IN ME" 1 John 4:4

"Immanuel" - God with Us not "God is with us"!

All these Words already tell you that we inherently have the Support and Power of God.

So you see, there is No Excuse!

"And now nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do" Genesis 11:6

Wilgrea7:
I never said the truth was related to any religion.

You related (connected) it saying

Wilgrea7:
What if the "truth" leads someone to abandon their religion?

Wilgrea7:
What of the truth makes someone an atheist?

The Truth will never do so. Atheism is born out of personal desires which is why your personal desire must be arrested so that you can see if The Purest Undefiled and Untainted Truth truly leads to atheism.

Maynman:
So your analogy about robot/car is busted, now it’s flesh and blood bwahahahah

Your usual insane response has finally come again when you have nothing reasonable to say.

My analogy about a robot car was very clear making a very clear distinction between robot you and the robot cars which you make.

Wilgrea7:
What if the "truth" leads someone to abandon their religion?

That is what Truth Does!

However, it means

1) You were on a Lie religion way.
2) You decided to abandon that Lie religion way and
3) You decided to enter into the Truth religion way.

Truth is just A Way but Abandoning or Non-Abandoning is your own doing!

Wilgrea7:
My desire for the existence of a God has no effect on whether a god exists or not.

True! But it has an effect on the Truth Fullness of the Results of your enquiry.

Hope2014:
Yes, surely those destroyed choosed something wrong...

So this clearly settles this.

Hope2014:
but I want to tell you God is above knowledge. He controls the heart of men. Those saved and those destroyed read the same Bible but the difference is God gave those saved understanding and those destroyed he didn't.

And the Bible adviced

1) "ASK FOR UNDERSTANDING".
2) OBEY THE WORDS OF MY MOUTH.

Hope2014:
People don't get saved because they want to but God saved them because he wants to.

You are repeating what you have said before after I have answered saying that "God saved them AFTER THEY HAD PUT THEMSELVES IN THE POSITION THAT THEY COULD BE SAVED".

Wilgrea7:
The second question assumes the first one is correct. The first question, which is whether or not a God/gods exists, is literally part of the whole process of questioning your beliefs (at least for most people).

The second question reveals The Truth of the secrets and wshes in your mind, whether you secretly entertain a desire for the absence of God (since we know that the Presence of God can be adverse and harm full to us)

Therefore, there is need to see whether your enquiry is biased and based on personal wishes and prefferance, as this would definitely affect the Purity of the Truth of your enquiry.

Hope2014:
We choose according to God's program

As long as We get To Choose:; To use ourselves by ourselves, To Choose!

Hope2014:
Boss. I know someone who had a one on one discussion with God and he said something troubling. He said about the people he saved "I saved them because I wanted to save them". He didn't say I saved them because they really wanted to be saved or they strived to be saved or they prayed fasted to be saved.

Learn how to hate and not readily accept "dem say" properly called "hearsay" testimony or evidence.

Hope2014:
Really it is not choice, many want to be saved but tthey cannot because God has already choosen those he wants to be saved. Really and deeply true. It is not of him that willleth nor of him that runneth but of God that showeth mercy. Even in the worst of men there have been good motives but God's predestination program means we all have no choice.

True, God Chooses those He Saves, HOWEVER, GO CHECK IT OUT, ALL OF THEM ARE SAVED BECAUSE THEY PLACED THEMSELVES IN THE POSITION THAT THEY COULD BE SAVED.

And the Advices in the Bible is meant to place us in that position to be saved hence Psalm 119:1-16 and cont'd. And Proverbs 4 especially verse 20. (I like Don Moen's song on it)

My son give attention to my words (Oh yes)
Incline your ear to my sayings
Do not (Do not) let them depart from your eyes
Keep them in the midst of your heart (Heart)
For they are life to those who find them
And health to all their flesh
For they are life to those who find them
And health to all their flesh"

AND IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO LISTEN TO THE WORDS AND WARNINGS AND ADVICE OF A VERY WISE FATHER Or To Cast His Words Aside And Continue Living As You Like to do.

Maynman:
And you chose Israelites God/gods, why from the Middle East though?

He is The Only One Who Spoke and Speaks As A God would Speak!

Wilgrea7:
What if the questions involve the belief in whether or not a God or gods exist?

Wrong question.

The Correct Question is whether
1) You think there is God/Gods or Not?

2) Would you like to have God/gods or not over you, since you know that they would be very much greater you?

3) Do you like Person/persons being greater than you especially persons who can harm you but you can not harm in retaliation?

Maynman:
But you didn’t choose the program, where is the choice in that?

That is why you are a creation we robots with flesh and blood call "robot". A Robot THAT IS PROGRAMMED TO CHOOSE.