₦airaland Forum

This is obviously a discussion for Americans

Perhaps the guys did not want the babies. Why are the women getting pregnant without agreeing with the guys? Why did both parties do the thing without protection?

Quite a few things to ponder there. Besides, I dont think that's a Nigerian thingy, it's mainly an American/western issue.

Is the Police not a reflection of the kind of society we have?

If we are all clean, decent and law-abiding people, the police will have no choice but to change: first because members of the police are recruited from among the general public, second because they wont find too many unruly criminals whom they can jostle around PLUS, there'll be less activity in police stations thereby making them feel less important than they currently feel.

Of course, the leaders have their parts to play in this. They need to start a proper re-orientation programme.

oje:
@Stenach,

I agree with you. I don't know what BigB1 and Eassy are saying;

I repeat;
The beautiful write up buy most of these guys in support of Saddam does not convince me at all,

The same guy can write a very good story about Abacha and you will think He was a saint.
a writer is saying dying by hanging is most brutal than amongst injections and shooting, etc,
if he died by firing Squad (shooting) he would still have something to say about it being the worst form, humans can be very shallow minded!!

I'm glad you do not understand.

If you do, you wont make claims that are outright wrong such as ", write up, in support of Saddam, ". I don't see where I have written in support of Saddam, I may have missed where BigB1 also wrote in 'support of' Saddam.

I don't understand why people like you jump to things without understanding what the crux of statements or discussions are.

If I write about the continual moving of goal posts by George Bush's administration and you read that to mean support for Saddam, I need to ignore your posts.

I believe it's the people.

When we, as a people, are fed up of being rubbished by the so-called political class and we decide to firmly end the oppression, it will be done.

I think we still have many of us feeding on the crumbs from the tables of thieving policians hence there is no great desire and willpower to effect changes to the way we are governed. We are also quite a greedy lot. When we are given the opportunity to steal, we forget the fact that there are millions of others suffering as a result of the fact that we are stealing public funds.

Yes, the leaders are absolutely irresponsible but you cannot absolve the public of some share of the blame. Most people are looking for 'fast bucks', no matter the illegality of the means of making such fast bucks.

Danmasani:
Saddam didnt cause 9/11, had no ties to terrorist and was a stabilizing force despite being a dictator in Iraq.

Absolute truth! None of the Bush apologists all over the world has ever had anything to say to that truth.

oje:
Good story @ Alabiyemi,


Even Abacha has a better testimonial than this. the beauty of a story lies on the hands of the writer or the mouth of the story teller.

what the ?

TayoD:
There is nothing like the WILL of the people in Theocracy.

At least you admit the killing is done by Iraqis themselves and not the U.S.

Have you thought about what the WILL of the people means? When the people decide they want to be ruled Theocratically, whatever gets done is done according to the will of the people, no matter how repressive.

The fact that the killings are being carried out by certain people does not excuse the one who laid the grounds for the chaos. Were the people killing in Iraq now not alive in the days of Saddam? They were, but they could not engage in such acts because Saddam would never allow it. George Bush's America is responsible for the deaths of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people since the invasion and God will judge them rightly in His time.

TayoD:
You have obviously missed the point again. Thata section of the country has moved on only shows that the other sections are being bogged down through a reprisal and vengeful tendencies that they have imbibed. The Kurds have shown that democracy can and will work in Iraq as long a the parties invloved are ready to make it work.

Democracy is not the only that can work if everyone agrees to practices it. Even Theocracy will work if all are willing to make it work

TayoD:
It would be interesting to compare how many people were killed by the U.S. Army (with greater fire power) to the number of people killed by the Iraqs themselves.

It should be interesting to consider the fact that if George Bush did not decide to invade Iraq for sinister motives, those involved in killing in Iraq at the present time would have no room to do such.

I'm sure Shell knows about it

McKren:
Marine or oil companies will know better

TayoD:
The U.S. and the U.K. will not be there for ever. In the mean time however, the U.S. and the U.K. have to stay back and help 'maintain' the mess that the occupation has been turned into.

Agreed!

The US and UK have to stay and clear up the mess that they have turned Iraq into. Although I have my reservations knowing the exploitative tendencies of these two nations.

TayoD:
If Iraq was indeed a secular state, how come there is so much friction between the Shias and the Sunnis? Secularism does not favour one religious sect while effectively suppressing another for the sole aim of pushing forward an agenda for one of the parties. Are we redefining what secularity is?

Secularity does not imply the absence of religious friction.

TayoD:
@Reverend,

It is up to the Iraqis to iron out their differences (which is primarily religious) and move on from there. Democracy is not their problem. This same democracy has been embraced by the kurds to their good while the Sunnis and Shias are busy using this golden opportunity to kill themselves and settle differences that dates back to the days of Muhammad.

Are Iraqi Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites different nationalities?

TayoD:
@BigB1,

Can you please tell us how many would have been killed also by Saddam by now? Also tell us how many you project would have ben killed if he stayed in power for another 30 years form today.

It would be interesting to compare figures of how many Iraqis were killed during Saddam's regime with the number that have been killed as a result of George Bush's invasion of another independent state on spurious allegations.

Logging back on after a few days' absence,

alabiyemmy:
You guys forget easily - Mandela had the opportunity to kill the leaders responsible for killing our own people in South Africa - the white people whose government was worse than that of Saddam Hussein, you remember how many blacks were hounded and killed during the apartheid era? But Mandela came to power and wasnt talking about killing whatever leader was responsible, he came and said we will forgive, he didnt kill anyone in return. Let us look back in histroy and ask ourselves, what lesson has the western world given to the world? Nothing, they make their laws, break it to suit them and they refuse to treat people equally, if a British man or an American man is sentenced to death outside their country - they do everything to set him free, so why not apply the same rule worldwide? Two months ago, a British man was meant to be executed in Pakistan for murder, what did we see? Even the Monarchy intervened, today the man is free.

Who will judge Blair and Bush for the spurious Iraq war? Who will judge them for thousands killed in Afhganistan, thousands killed in Iraq, who will judge them for thousands of dead British and American soldiers? Why is it right to kill innocent citizens/civilians in a war, whether justified or not? To date, over 600,000 Iraqis are dead in the almost four year old Iraq war, talkless of thousands killed in Afhganistan? Who will judge them?

It is not right for anyone that is American/British to die but it is right for people of any other backfround to die. Where is justice in this world?

Well said

babasin:
mickyarams
The $40billion would be given to WESTERN countries to do business with.

Abacha gave them only $3billion. He was stingy. That was why they killed him

IBB gave $12billion is a good boy

OBJ gave $40Billion. Nobel Prize

Western countries need that money so they can lend it back to us at 'good' rates. That's what goes into investments in their economies while we are crying out for them to come and invest in our own economy.

The folly of following western countries.

My brother make you no follow book o; read am and use your sense

bioye:
He's been hanged. How sad.

I'm not saying he did not do anything wrong. But what's Bush's business in Iraq in the first place? If his people hanged him then I would have understood.

What does Bush or anyone indeed gain by hanging Saddam? What about the thousands of innocent Iraqis that have died and keep dying because of Bush's unjustified invasion of Iraq. It's all about the money that Bush and friends are interested in making.

Saddam is a villain. But so is Bush.

Bioye, well said.

McKren:
I am happy that Saddam is going to the gallows not because of what US and UK makes of him but because of how he maltreated his people. Talking about his misdeeds somebody armed him.
It is like the case of charlse taylor where he is accused of attrocities in siera leone, yet people supplied the amunitions used by the rebels but nobody will checkmate such deals or bring the people in question to justice.
Leaders of the third world countries need to realise that US and UK are no friends.

I clearly feel you

Saddam was a horrible man.

He is not the only horrible ruler this world has seen. Bush also ordered slaughters in Iraq and Afrghanistan. The difference is that Bush does not order the slaughter of his own people.

Yes. Why have they not invaded Nigeria to try Obasanjo for the same offence?

4 Play:
People forget one crucial thing,if American or Isreali intention was to kill as many civilians as they like,then they certainly have the military firepower to kill as many people without losing a single soilder.

This is one crucial thing that is lost in this debate,there exists at the moment in US military arsenal enough firepower to end opposition without having to engage in ground combat.

It is the Americans who have exercised the discretion to put their troops through the grim task of engaging in ground combat in order to minimise civilian casualties

Those who assert that the Americans are oblivious to civilian casualties,are incredibly ignorant of American military capabilities.

Terrorists on the other hand use every weapon in their arsenal,having no care for civilian casualties.When Saddam had a problem with a certain place, he had no problems gassing an entire community as he did in Halabja.

Isreal killed about 1,000 civilians in weeks of fighting in Lebanon,the Nigerian military which is significantly weaker,killed that amount in one day in Odi .

Since the intifada started in 2000,about 4,000 Palestinians have died-many of them militants-since the conflict in Darfur started at least 150,000 civilians have died yet the Sudanese do not have anywhere near the firepower of the Isrealis.

4Play,

There is doubting the military might of America and the fact that it is able to wipe out entire nations at the battting of an eyelid. Perhaps if America does not always try to pull the wool over our eyes in it's attempt to persuade the world of it's fairness, there would be less expectations from people like me. To whom much is given, much is expected. The fact that I criticize George Bush's American policy is because of my expectations.

You are trying to classify some terrorists as being different from America and Israel as perpetuators of terrorism. Many organisations now regarded as 'terrorist' organisations were once American allies. They were built up by American support.

I wish we will all stop getting carried away by our emotions and sit down to view things objectively. It will become clear from any human perspective that George Bush is a terrorist sponsor and is responsible for signing the death warrants of several thousand innocent Iraqis and nearly 3000 American soldiers in Iraq.

I was brought up to love and admire America as a country. However, I cannot bring myself to accept the injustice of what George Bush is doing. It appears he has a mission to attack and decimate all islamic nations. Does Israel not have enough to wipe out Lebanon? Yet, when Israel was attacking Lebanon, America was shipping military armunition through UK to Israel. At the same time, it was busy attacking Syria and Iran for supporting the other party. Such hypocrisy!!!

Mariory:
Wrong! the difference is intent. If I intended to kill your child, then that makes it murder. if your child died by accident due to my actions, that's manslaughter.

The difference between Isreal/US and Orgs like Alquaida is that the former target militarily important places while the latter will target any place that has minimum security where it can get a large number of people. This desperation to class the US/Isreal as terrorists is laughable at best.

It is not warfare to place a bomb in a bus or train during rush hour to kill as many people as posible. If Isreal and America used the same idealogy, they would just drop N Bombs and save themselves the time and money. You think Al-quaida will have second thoughts on using Chemical or Nuclear weapons?

I like to appeal to rationality and reason.

If someone throws a bomb into my house intending to damage the house, knowing that my child is inside, I class that person a murderer. What you seem to be saying is that because that person has come out to claim that his aim was to damage the house absolves him of blame for the murder of my child. That is ridiculous.

Warfare is defined relative to the capability of each party. If someone engages a weaker opponent and the opponent uses his teeth instead of his fists, it's his own way of defending himself from the aggression of a more powerful opponent who, in this case, seems to be responsible for defining what the rules of the warfare should be.

My aim is not to defend Al Quaeda. I will however be logical in seeing the fact that American and Israeli actions are terrorist in practice and objective.