₦airaland Forum

Pifa:
This is not an issue of “nothing is built for free”, or the minuscule budget of Lagos, nor is it about the state’s teaming population. I wrote earlier that if indeed the state had not and would not provide an alternate route for motorists who do not wish to pay the toll, then it would amount to a concept in law known as “forced patronage”. I cannot speak for the law in Lagos, but in civilized societies that could be a ground for invalidating the contract.

The website describes an alternative route:

Alternative Routes

Road users who do not wish to pay the tolls can avail themselves of alternative routes that will enable them bypass the Admiralty Circle Plaza but still return back onto the Eti-Osa Lekki Toll Road afterwards where they will continue to enjoy the benefits of the new road assets and the suite of services provided by LCC. See the diagram below. For example a road user travelling from Victoria Island to Lekki could turn right off the Eti-Osa Lekki Toll Road into Ligali Ayorinde Street take a left into Akinbolagbe Street turn right into Oba Oniru Road (driving by City of David Church) and continue to Oniru Market Road. At the end of Oniru Market Road a right turn takes you back onto the Eti-Osa Lekki Toll Road.

http://www.lcc.com.ng/News/NewsContent.aspx?newsid=27

Or is this route not functional?

jacobs123:
I will offer a few more information for those who think we are fighting a useless fight

Even though the road has been concessioned, the Lagos state government  (LASG) has actually committed N5 billion ($42 million) of tax payers to the project and this facts sits pretty on the website of Standard bank and Mr. Fashola said that much in one of his investor road shows in the city of Dubai.

5 billion loan, not gift, paid back over 20 years (dunno the interest rate though.) That and the concession is all that Lagos is spending. In 30 years the concession ends, Lagos State inherits the road free and clear. This to me seems a good way to build infrastructure w/o spending too much government money.

Well Mr Genius did it occur to you that a lot of Lagosians earn less than $7.50 a day which is the minimum hourly wage in Texas? Your talking about less than a buck a day are you serious? Or are you that out of touch with reality, Are there not alternative routes to get to your location than getting on the Beltway/Sam Houston Tollway? Please tell me the alternative route to get to Lekki?And just so its clear im all for the toll just not at this exorbitant rates and only after the road is completed,

First, which of these Lagosians who earn under $7.50 a day also have cars and thus are plying that road frequently in their own sedan? Also, it isn't by force you use the road. There is an alternative route posted on the LCC website. And if the 120 naira is too much, carpool or take some sort of public transport.

Pretty disappointed by the attitudes and posts of many here on this forum.

Obinoscopy:
The Govt will definitely be paying the company throughout the period of Toll Collection suspension so there is no financial breach per se on the contract

So the end result will be  that costs are spread across all of the Lagos taxpayer base rather than those who directly use it. Not really the best way to do it (for a variety of reasons), but so be it.

So long as the project goes through and the investors do not get burned and scared away, I'm relatively content.

luvinhubby:
Ngige gave Anambra state great and beautiful road network in 3yrs without haevy tax and toll gates, if i pay N120 on every good stretch of Nigerian road, then my family will starve to death.

Never been to Anambra before, but if it is the typical crappy roads Nigerians rejoice over as "great", then meh.

Also, how on earth did he raise the money to do this? Where did he get the $10 or $20 billion required? These are heavy capital projects. I'm very curious to know the source of money, or who he went to for financing.

Or are you comparing some slapdash Anambra road that will be eroded away to what is being done by the LCC? 

@luvinhubby: Part of it is complete, is it not? So they are tolling the part they finished, yes?

Onlytruth:
My point is that Nigerians copy things without even thinking. Mental laziness is the problem.

They spent a lot of time thinking about how to solve this problem of raising capital for infrastructure. If you have a better solution that alleviates the fears of foreign investors (currency fluctuation, control over investment, recovering investment, good profits for the investor) while not requiring much capital, then feel free to offer it. I highly doubt you have such a solution, though. Easy to criticize, much more difficult to think up an answer of your own.

If you collect taxes, you have no moral justification to toll an ordinary road.

First of all, what does morality have to do with anything?

Second, taxes and tolls are the SAME thing. Just think of a toll as a VAT of sorts for usage. No real difference between the two, they just differ in which segment of the population ends up paying for it.
Like, if the road costs $1 billion, Lagos State takes out a loan from a Nigerian bank for that much @ 22% interest, that is $220 million which it needs to raise in revenue per year to justify the project. So they'll either get that 220 mil by cutting other services, or by RAISING taxes.In other words, tax revenue will need to go up by that amoun

ACN/Fashola wonder indeed! 

Ah, I get it. You aren't actually interested in finding ways to develop infrastructure, just instead bashing Fashola and the ACN. Fair enough, then.

Wow, I'm surprised and humbled. Thanks a lot, guys!

Just wanted to say that Katsumoto is one of my favorite posters in the politics section; I enjoy reading his posts quite a bit.

PhysicsQED is another high-quality poster. And there are several others too.

Also, congrats on the wedding, Jarus!

Onlytruth:
As if Buhari/Yoruba will win anything at the national stage with GEJ contesting. 

Tell SE/SS/NC and even core North about a Yoruba on a national ticket next year and see them laugh you to scorn. 

I concede that the ticket will be weak in the SE and SS, but not all of the middle belt. And it will absolutely be dominant in the core North. Buhari voters don't really care who the VP is so long as Buhari is frontlining the ticket. They have no love for GEJ, lol

I can see that the 24 years wait for you is killing y'all! 

Who agreed to 24 years? Whoever did certainly doesn't speak for me or mine.

Calm down folks. No short cuts!

There are always short cuts for those intelligent and nimble enough to find them.

Tolls are not only for bridges. We have the Sam Houston tollway in Houston, for example.

No difference in raising taxes and just directly raising money through tolls.

120 is not even a buck. GSay two trips a day, 25 trips a month, that is 50*120 = 6000 naira, $40 only. eTag knocks off 10%, dropping to $36. Factor in gas savings, the value of his time (shorter commute >> longer commute), etc, and the net cost might be more like $15 or $20.

And if he is too cheap to pay for this, then he has the option of taking public transportation, or taking a longer route. Or selling his property and moving back east, if he so desires  

babapupa:
Obviously, Nigerians are not ready for prime time. There's nothing good about this news, many are to ignorant and shortsighted for their own good.

No joke. I want this project to succeed so it can be replicated elsewhere in the SW. I'd be happy if the 3 or 4 hour drive from my village in Ekiti to Lagos were cut to 1 hour with a tolled expressway.

Imagine how beneficial that would be for both Lagos (cheaper farm goods) and Ekiti (cheaper goods from seaports.) And that is just two benefits, there are tons of others.

Onlytruth:
Government build roads and maintain them. That is why people pay taxes.

One way or another, citizens will pay for roads. If the government builds a road and provides it for "free", you'll pay for it through taxes, interest payments on the money the government borrows to finance the loan (roughly 22% is the rate in Nigeria, iirc), loss of other services, etc.
LCC was financed through banks in South Africa and Australia, where interest rates are much, much cheaper. I'd much rather finance capital-intensive projects with cheap credit rather than expensive credit.

Long story short, nothing in the world comes for free. You'll pay for it one way or another.

How can any sane person pay N120 each passing on a road he rely on daily to earn a living? Supposing he has to pass that gate 10 times a day; it is conscionable to charge him N2400 on that day?

There is obviously a discount for volume usage. Did any of you guys actually look at the rates before complaining about the prices? 10 times a day is at least 250 times a month. You get a 20% discount on mnotorcycles and 50% for most other classes of vehicles:

http://lcc.com.ng/News/NewsContent.aspx?newsid=27

Frustrating, this is going to scare away investors from other infrastructure projects . Terrible news for a capital-starved country like Nigeria. If the LCC fails in Lagos (the most business-friendly region in Nigeria), then why would anyone want to fund roads elsewhere?

Also, the tolls iirc are not that high. Why do people want to have good things (nice roads) w/o paying for them?

Finally, what penalties (if any) will the Lagos State gov't have to pay for violating their agreement with the LCC?

Unfortunate if true; this year is the weakest the PDP is likely to be for a long time, so it makes sense to strike hardest now. No real chance of doing this unless a strong alliance is formed. Neither the ACN or CPC can defeat GEJ or even Atiku by themselves.

Ah well. All I expected this cycle was securing the SW; any further achievements would have been gravy for me.

The ACN can continue making inroads at the local level in other regions of the country (especially states controlled by minority ethnic groups); that is also a very worthy goal.

Hopefully that is some sort of typo. . .

paradigman:
Wished ACN/CPC Coalition will produce a SE or SS Vp. Let Tinubu know that the SW is in the kitty. With a Vp from SE or SS, the coalition will be the combination to beat.

Did you not read any of the posts in this thread? It might be possible for certain SS candidates to be a net positive for the ticket, but there is no Igboman alive or dead for which the same is true. ACN will only pick an Igbo VP if they want the PDP to win.

Like, SW is not in the bag unless the ticket has something to offer. And the ACN brand name by itself is not enough, with two non-SW guys on the ticket. What interest is a Yorubaman going to have in a Buhari/Igboman ticket, even if draped in ACN cloth?

alj harem1:
but i believe APGA will not do much for us in the SE i will still perfer ACN because they have been tested (fashola) hopefully ACN will take over our igboland instead of APGA because i do not trust them

We are talking in circles and circles, in part because a lot of these folks giving advice here to the ACN don't have the ACNs interest at heart (and thus are avoiding analyzing the situation rationally.)

The long and short of it is that there is no Igboman alive or dead who can contest under the ACN as VP and actually deliver enough votes in his region to offset the loss of votes in the SW. Why on earth should the ACN choose Ticket A over Ticket B if Ticket A delivers less votes?

The ACN would be morons to pick an Igboman as VP, because he'll bring nothing to the table, votewise.

Picking dudes who don't bring in votes on your ticket is a surefire way to decrease your chance of success. Makes zero sense.

If we agree that the number of votes a Buhari/Igboman ticket yields the ACN is less than that of Buhari/Yorubaman ticket, then there is obviously no reason to consider the former over the latter.

And I think one can make a strong argument that the latter ticket will yield more votes than the former.

notcorrupt:
   Cocaine ke, God forbid.

Abuja is too boring, Lagos is my type of city, chaotic but hustling and bustling.

Also I am not one to be too particular on comforts, security though is a must.

Thanks,

Abuja tops the list for security of major cities in Nigeria, I think. Very quiet and peaceful.

Dunno if it is boring, there are supposed to be some good nightclubs and such here. Never been to them though. Though I'm not sure what you like doing for fun.

Even if we assume that your hypothesis ("You cannot win in this election without the SE vote") is true, the political calculus doesn't change. Pursuing the votes of people who will not vote for you no matter what you do makes zero sense. It is entirely a waste of resources.

Brand new latest generation (4th) iPods still in the box sold from Abuja. I have 10 of them in stock. 52,000 Naira to buy one, and a discount to buy more than one.

If interested, reach me at 07084391263, or send an email at ripp.ripp@hotmail.com

This advert was crossposted with pictures at nairalist.com here: (http://www.nairalist.com/abuja/forsale/1320/brand-new-ipod-touch-8gb)

If you can secure a job that pays you 2 million naira a month, that is more than enough money to move (assuming you don't have enormous expenses like a cocaine habit   )

Also, I don't think you'll miss too much from the UK if you relocated somewhere like Abuja. Roads, infrastructure, power supply and safety are all pretty high here, if you live in a nice part of town.

EDIT: typo

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=575699.msg7425503#msg7425503 date=1293598638]Sorry but if that is the dream ticket, it will prove disastrous to neglect the Igbos for VP or at least the South-South in the present permutation. Any right thinking politician should know that the winning edge in the coming election will come from the South-East/South-South.

What do you people take the igbos for, fools or what? Hausa give Yoruba, Yoruba give Hausa, this time around Tinubu this will mark ACN end politically if you ignore the Igbos. Check history MKO told Nzeribe that he can do without Igbos what happened he won but never ruled & no one seems to remember that.[/quote]As has been said numerous times in this thread, since no Igbo VP candidate can possibly deliver votes or states on an ACN ticket, there is no point in adding him to the ticket.
So if this election is going to be won, it is going to have to be won without the SE.

As I said earlier, the ACN needs to draw lessons from the Republican Party of the US, who also have a large minority group which intrinsically dislikes them and will never vote for them (African Americans). Yet the Repubs still have kicked Democrat @$$ more often than not (and I say this as a Democrat ).

Beaf:
The blunt truth is that to the US, the rest of Nigeria might as well be a cassava farm, they really don't care. Their relationship with Nigeria is entirely about Bonny Light Crude and that is what they will act to protect.

I completely agree. But consider things from their perspective. What is the path of least resistance that achieves their objectives?

Supporting a minority president GEJ who has rigged two enormous regions of the country out of a presidency they won, causing enormous amounts of civil unrest?

Or convincing GEJ to step down or taking active steps to remove him, and if necessary offering financial and military support to Nigeria to manage any political fallout that occurs in the SS?

Personally, I think #2 is easier than #1. Or how do you propose the US ensure that GEJ successfully rigs, in the face of the masses? Will the US just nuke them all?   Obviously not.

Beaf:
You will be shocked to find that the only part of Nigeria that is important to the US is the ND.

This seems probably true.

If any unfortunate fellow rocks the oil boat by ejecting a "shon of the shoil," we will definitely see US boots.

This is false, especially if "shon of the shoil" is an election-rigger who has robbed the nation of democracy and is causing massive unrest in the North and SW.

Besides that, it is basically impossible for a coup to succeed in current day Nigeria.

I agree with you that the probability of a coup being attempted or succeeding is low (say 5% or 1% as a ballpark estimate.) My point is just that this chance is raised to some extent, if that sequence of rigging by GEJ/unrest in SW/North were to happen. And this in and of itself seems bad to me.

Anyway, I just think it is pretty hard to cheat to entire regions at once out of a fair victory (some might even say an underdog victory, given that the ACN is not the party in power.)

johndoe200:
This is a very naive statement, but since you are not here I suppose you can be forgiven. At the last count there were 20,000 plus militants who have been in the creeks fighting.

No sane or rational person can ignore such a potential threat to the country. You do realize that a lot of the financial support to the militants came from the state governments in the south south.

In a country that has no other source of income other than oil, this is a calculation that can not be ignored. Do you think Yaradua did the amnesty think out of the goodness of his heart?

What calculation is there? "Hey, GEJ lost the election cleanly, but somehow we have to let him be president anyway!" Should the ACN not field a candidate, for fear that GEJ might be defeated, thus causing unrest? What exactly is your proposal? Suspend democracy, rob the people of their right to vote, all to appease some group? Sort of seems a bit silly. If he loses, he loses. Not the end of the world.

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=575699.msg7425202#msg7425202 date=1293590728]I welcome ACN to try to gain the presidency. That would definitely cause alarm in the East.[/quote]See, this statement is exactly why the ACN cannot afford to pander in any way, shape or form to the SE. What is the point of putting an Igbo on your ticket if he cannot deliver any votes? ACN is not popular in the SE, so don't bother trying to appease them; it will gain you nothing.

Regarding the comment, why should I care about the concern? All I'm interested in is winning an election, not pleasing everybody (which is impossible anyway.)

I doubt a coup will occur though my brother. The reason why I say this is due to the fact, that it didn't happen during the Yar'Adua fiasco. The U.S. will not allow another coup to occur, cause that could cause disruption with the oil flow.

The Yar'Adua situation is in no way comparable to the one in which you propose, in which a sitting president rigs two hugely populated (at least, by the official population figures) regions of Nigeria out of an election in which they won. Latter would make the "Yar'Adua fiasco" seem like a pleasant stroll in the park.
Also, yes the US might interfere, but it would NOT be to help GEJ suppress a coup if he did the above. Instead, they'd use their influence to pressure GEJ to step down, since that is the path of least resistance. This is generally what the US seeks to do. . . take the course of action that rocks the boat the least, this maintaining the very favorable status quo for America (there are exceptions here and there, but you get the idea.)

You do know that if GEJ doesn't get the presidency, militancy in the Niger Delta shall rise again to epic proportions. The Ijaw want GEJ as president. Ignore them at your own peril.

Eh, supposedly we live in a democracy. Whether group X wants GEJ to be president is not relevant unless they can get the votes to do so. If GEJ is cleanly defeated in an election and someone take offense to that, then that is not my problem. In a democracy, no one group can force a candidate on anyone else, threats or no.

PapaBrowne:
Who said ACN would sweep Yoruba states?? With Buhari on the Ticket more than half of the SW would vote GEJ.

The strongest voting bloc in the SW is pentecostal Christians. [/b]Their population is massive. The likes of Redeemed, Deeper Life, MFM, Christ Embassy and a host of these large pentecostal denominations are all domiciled mainly in the South West. Across the country, Pentecostals happen to be Jonathan's strongest support base and at the same time are the most antagonistic towards Buhari's ambition.Every politician knows not to ignore this voting block, hence the visit by all aspiring politicians to the stable of Pastor Adeboye. Buhari was there. Jonathan was there. Lots of others have been there.

[b]In a nutshell, a Buhari on an ACN ticket doesn't make any impact on pentecostal christians which happen to be the largest voting bloc in the south west.

Ethnicity is more important than religion among the Yoruba (actually, this is true for most Nigerian ethnicities in general.)

Given that:
a) The ACN to a large extent is viewed by the Yoruba as an Awoist party.
b) The #2 man on the proposed ticket is a Christian Yoruba

Then your typical SW voter will support this ticket. Of course, their enthusiasm would be dampened if instead of a Yoruba VP, some sort of johnny-come-lately meant to appease the SE or SS were instead selected. . .

@Beaf: Thanks for clarifying that. I read through the relevant sections (http://www.nigeria-law.org/ConstitutionOfTheFederalRepublicOfNigeria.htm#FederalExecutive). While you are right that it might be possible to get a majority but not get the 25% in the required number of states, I don't think it is a super-likely event.


@Rhino.5dm: Interesting analysis, thanks. If Sambo cannot deliver Kaduna, then wth is he good for, lol? Also, this cracked me up:

[quote="Rhino.5dm"]Immidiately if GEJ wins the ticket of his party, the music will change. What am saying in essence is that, immediately after GEJ wins his party primary, the average northerner i know will wear his regional/ bigotery cap and worked for any available northerner.

The slogan then was

" collect thier money and vote for your conscience"

or you see a PDP governotorial candidate saying

" vote for as governor and vote buhari as your president"[/quote]

[quote author=Mrs, Eve link=topic=570836.msg7424986#msg7424986 date=1293584832]If you been in USA since you was four years old. You will know that UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES will not ACCEPT WIKIPEDIA as credible source and in fact if you use it as a reference, you will receive a failing grade.  JFYI.[/quote]1) Err, the reference is there on the Wikipedia page. Reference #38, a survey by the Pew Hispanic Center. Proly a good a idea to open up the link, isn't it?
2) Hrm, this is an online forum, not a college essay, is it?
3) I'm debunking arguments backed up by zilch. . .so at the very least I've done a bit more than her.
4) Aren't you guilty of hypocrisy? You certainly didn't source your wrong assertions from before (e.g., more Nigerians on welfare in the US than AAs  )

Where do you think those Latina/Latino migrated from and the Latina/Latino in South America predominately of them are darker.

Are you a mo.ron? Again, 64% of hispanics in the US are from Mexico. Mexico has very, very little African genetics there. Mexico is in North America, not South!

The melanin is what make people the darker colors and if we are going to say that the white people and native americans made the latina/latino then how the hell their skin get darker when exposed to the sun?

Darker people have the highest concentrated melanin in comparison with other group of ethnicities however two dark people can make light babies, but two light people can't make dark babies.

So in your mind, dark skin = recent African descent? Two suggestions for you:

1) Get out more a bit, maybe meet some Philipinos, Indonesians, Polynesians (all obviously not of African descent).
2) Read about the Bering Land Bridge connecting Asia and North America, so you can learn a bit about where the indigenous peoples of North and South America originally came from.

Eh, if it comes down to rigging, both sides can play that game After all, the ACN/CPC base seems to form a huge amount of the official population of the country, and votes can be manipulated to be overwhelming there too.

This is part of the reason why I'm glad Tinubu is the head of the ACN.

And as you allude to, if GEJ  uses rigging to cheat an ACN/CPC ticket (representing the SW and North, respectively) out of victory, not only will he invite civil unrest, but I think he also increases the chance of a military coup.

So I'm not sure that rigging is going to be as effective in this election as in past ones.

Hrm. So let's analyze things a bit state by state, Buhari/Christian Yoruba vs. GEJ/Sambo.

So here is a preliminary guess of strength (red for Buhari/ACN, blue for GEJ/Sambo):

Buhari/ACN
----------

Edo, Ekiti, Lagos, Ogun, Ondo, Osun, Oyo
Kano, Jigawa, Katsina, Kebbi
Sokoto, Taraba, Yobe, Zamfara
Adamawa, Borno, Gombe


GEJ/Sambo
---------

Abia, Anambra, Enugu, Ebonyi, Imo, Bayelsa, Delta, Rivers
Akwa Ibom, Cross River, Kaduna, Kwara


I have less intuition about the following states, however:
Abuja, Bauchi, Benue, Kogi, Nasarawa, Niger, Plateau

Can anyone else chime in on which way the states would go?

Anyway, if this analysis is roughly correct, and the green states which I have less intuition about are split roughly 50/50, then it seems to me that this ACN/CPC alliance can defeat even GEJ (assuming relatively little rigging.)

Or am I off base in some way (too generous about which states the ACN/CPC would win, for example. . .)?

MzDarkSkin:
Holy schit. This is better than 'Days of Our Lives' 

Eku you need to get over your GD self because it was the sweat, blood, and tears (sacrifices) of A.A.'s that gave you the opportunity to talk trash about them not only on a computer but in America. Most of the opportunities we have here as Africans and yes even Caribbeans is due to the hard work of A.A.s

This latter statement of yours is true. But MLK, Rosa Parks sort of black folk I admire and like. I dislike the crackhead, drug dealing, gun violence, failing out of school type. And of course lazy, m0ronic paranoid types who blame whitey for everything that ails them.

Hispanic is not a race

Never claimed it was. Race != ethnicity

and more than half of the latin population is of African descent

More than half of the latin pop in AMERICA is of African descent? This is false. 64%+ of Hispanics in this country are Mexican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans). Amount of African DNA in Mexicans is pretty small.
Not to talk of this remaining 36%, a lot of whom are also not of African descent.