₦airaland Forum

Ptolomeus: Why intriguing, dear friend? What is the doubt?

I wasn't expressing doubt...I just found your post to be very interesting

Ptolomeus, intriguing post.

okeyxyz: Now the question arises: "What do women want?" From evidence on ground, one can also argue that either women don't know what they want, thereby allowing men to rule over & dictate to them, or they want the same or different things as men but lack the will or know-how to assert their their aspirations, thus leading to the same end which is a patriarchal society. But Honestly, it remains a mystery to all men, We still continue to ask: "What do women want? how do you please a woman?", there are in-fact thousands of literature & business models built on deciphering the female mind. As long as women continue to remain a mystery, it's only gonna manifest in in all facets of society, religion included, that they will not be the definers & interpreters of societal values.

Now, I state again that my rant above is "assuming" that culture is 100 percent responsible for religion.

tbaba1234: What do you mean a partial identity? He exists and is not bounded by the definitions we have in our world.

What I meant is that typically Muslim’s call their “God”...”Allah”...although the religion was founded in Arabia such specific employment awards the Muslim “God” an Arab identity imo.

Nice thread and thank goodness the OP never explicitly asked for the name

@OP my name simply means ...."what befits me"

*sigh*

I apologise for derailing and will subsequently edit my post so as not to distract from the theme of this topic.

@OP

I fancy the native attire and art of the Binis.

Urhobo thank you for usi and owoh ...and I appreciate the Urhobo language...it's like music to my ears.

NeuroBoss: but I love the religion and celebrity fora the most because that is where I catch some laugh when people bash themselves in their comments. Fellow Nairalanders, where do you like going on Nairaland? Why?

There are some highly intriguing characters/perspectives on the religious board. Some posters and topics there are intellectually stimulating (I suspect many of them are professionals and well read). Even though I may hold a different conviction to them I always enjoy listening to the beliefs/unbelief of some members there especially the non-conventional ones....they always provide something new to consider even if the topic has been flogged many times before.

I like the Igbo language.

olibyno: plz try to have a comprehensive understanding of the post/comment before you criticise or better still go thru the previous comments

okay...point taken.

Calamama: [size=14pt]Isokos and Urhobos are very different ethnic group....this is a partnership of equals not of subordinate and superordinate.
[/size]

Correct. And to that I will add Isokos are not a "sub-group" of the Urhobos...An Urhobo man will not even understand an Isoko man when he's speaking deep Isoko and vice versa...notwithstanding the Urhobos are our sister ethnic group.

smh

olibyno: @all
people name their kids (weda hebrew, jews as long as its a name in the bible) some of these names not to copy a particular culture but to tell people even without being asked that he/she is christian besides we also have our local names which may not speak for us whom we really are.
anyhow (weda african,asian,european) who bears moses anywhere in the world is first asummed to be a christian even without being asked.
abeg,take note for those of us that want to crucify me-no be promotion o!

But it doesn't necessarily follow that if one has a so called christian name or "Hebrew" name that they are automatically Christians. So for anyone to go by such assumptions is clearly narrow minded.

Actually people (Africans at least) give their children those biblical names because some of them want their child to emulate those famous characteristics so it's not so much about the name than it is about the fame.

olibyno: will never be a jew, am christian and if your igbo names were in the bible which is the religion i practise then i will gladly bear it in order to portrait whom i am...

So Igbo and other native names to you would have been considered not because of ones own heritage but due to which "holy" book they feature in?

thehomer: No I didn't know that. It is all rubbish. Anyone who wants to go should save up their own money and go rather than squandering the little resources available to feed some religions.

That is it.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]let me get you right. Are you talking about the status of women within the religion itself or society at large?
Because if that is the case then we would be having a non-debate because it simply follows that a female god would have a priestess and will be concerned with women affairs, but this wouldn't be representing the religion as a whole but a section of it that caters to women in particular much like you might have women groups in a monotheist setting being led by a woman, again as a monotheistic parallel to polytheistic priestesses, we would have nuns and prophetesses.

My point simply is that I am yet to see any direct relationship between monotheism/polytheism and gender equality.[/quote]Okay let me clarify. I believe societal structure i.e patriarchy does affect the standing of each gender in society and religion being a product of society reflects some of that model. For example a religion born in a patriarchal society is bound to favour men and that is certainly not divine as so much as culturally influenced.
And for the last time I am stressing on masculine and feminine content not on any deities supposed gender. My topic is not observing "female" gods! but gods or godly assemblies that include in addition feminine content so that there is an encompassing representation. And whether this promotes the spiritual value of feminine beings (females) in such society and as a result does this cater to a more balanced status between the genders.

I suppose it would have been better if I had posed my question as:

Does particular theological constructs affect human status in society - (but of course factoring the structure of those societies which no doubt will have an affect on how the deities and laws are translated).

And no your parallel is off. A nun is not in a leadership role over the congregation...no doubt that is a particular role but the roles I was making reference to are the higher roles in fact the highest such as those held by Bishops etc..women allegedly don't have spiritual authority over males in church for example so you are not getting my point or you are using a skewed analogy. That is partly why I asked this question. If these deities had not only masculine content would it have been possible for another that is not a masculine being (male) to hold the pinnacle position in church?

I don't think I quite understand what you meant by this sentence

You compared how women were treated in traditional Nigerian cultures, cultures that perhaps were polytheistic ...with that of how women were treated in former colonial nations that were monotheistic.
Thus my response. At least you said that women in colonial nations were treated relatively better....relative is the operative word.
But despite their seemingly better treatment which was largely displayed in their secular setting they in comparison to other native cultures had no clout in the religious systems.

tbaba1234: See English may be black and white but Arabic is 1080i High definition. (quote from suhaib webb) It is so true.

words in the Arabic language have genders, either male or female but it is not that straight forward and it does nor signify sex necessarily. Here's a summary below of how it works:

Gender Distinctions in Arabic....

http://corpus.quran.com/documentation/gender.jsp

Informative...thanks for sharing although you did bypass my last question.

buzugee: there is no such thing as equality.
even amongst men there is no equality.

And I don't disagree however I would have thought given the context it was apparent what I meant by "equality".

"Equality" in the sense as equally respecting each others differences.

This is my personal favourite topic this year and for me the best question this year asked on this board thus far:

Should the Nigerian Government continue to sponsor Pilgrimages?

https://www.nairaland.com/987952/shoud-nigeria-government-continou-sponsor

andromida: By islamic standards it is disobedience for a muslim woman to marry a non muslim man but it is permissible for the man because he is a man and will direct the affairs of his home as both judaism and christianity believe a woman should be in submission to her husband.

+1

bros B: they say it is to go and pray for the country is our God not omnipresent? Can't we stay here and pray and God will hear?Must government sponsor pilgrimage?

Excellent questions!...and to that my firm answer is a capital NO.

Imagine being sponsored by an evidently unholy government to go to these so called "holy" places.
However even if Nigeria was a prosperous nation such funding should not come out of government pockets.
This is extremely selfish and misguided and there has been no evidence of any benefits from these sponsored pilgrimages. Money well wasted.
How much money is spent on more obviously needy issues? There is no excuse for this.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Again I'll say that results of that are inconclusive. We simply cannot properly relate the two.
In ancient Greece, there were a myriad of gods both male and female yet women were still seen as inferior members of the society. At the same time period in amongst the Hebrews with one God, women were also regarded as lesser members of the society.[/quote]Mr Anony, this topic is not about the number of gods but about the inclusion of an obvious feminine content within a spiritual council. I used polytheism as a comparison not necessarily because polytheism has multiple gods but because there is a feminine presence in their godly assembly. If there was a monotheistic deity that in addition reflects a feminine content and not solely a masculine one then I would have used such for comparison. So you see the number of gods is less important than the content of the god(s).

Amongst Nigerian tribal religions with so many gods they had, they treated their women with less respect than their colonial masters who had one God. So you see, It is impossible to draw any direct links between the number of gods a people serve and their gender equality.
If you have a stronger point other than merely your opinion then please point us to it.

Is this another generalization…the funny thing is in the “Nigerian tribal religions” as you so sophistically put it…there were some systems were women held a high position i.e. priestess. Whilst in former colonial nations women are still contending to hold leadership positions in some churches.
Secular equality is different from “religious” equality.

andromida: Islam permits a muslim man to marry chaste women from other specific religions because in islam there is no compulsion in religion and the woman will be permitted to practise her faith because she is an adult but muslim women are not permitted to marry non muslim men. The question is are muslim women not adults, since there is no compulsion of faith in islam why is it compulsory for them to marry muslim men? as adults are they not free to choose to marry christians and jews if really there is no compulsion of faith? Is this not more of control of the flock than a matter of faith in the creator?

Good questions.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Not necessarily so. The truth is that we really have no way of knowing for sure.
Personally, I think that neither monotheism nor polytheism have any discernible role to play in the gender equality/inequality.[/quote]Interesting...but do you think that the images of "God" perhaps affects how each gender is regarded in society whether conciously or sub-conciously?
Or don't you think that the images of "God" reflects the place of men and women in the world?

okeyxyz: I am not a practicer of any spiritual concept besides christianity(I am also not mainstream/conventional christian), so i cannot tell whether the polytheistic religions have more equal societies. But to the best of my knowledge, all traditional and modern societies are patriarchal whether mono or polytheistic. So my take on this is that nature is structured like that. The male of all species defines "territories to claim & dominate", females naturally yield to the males(not just about physical strength). So, no matter how much equality a society might have, it's values still seem to be defined by it's males.

I disagree. Not all societies are/were patriarchal and my question wasn't whether polytheism created "equal societies" but if such societies were relatively balanced. I do understand that patriachal societies could have adhered to Polytheism thus still exerting much masculine relevance i.e. the supreme god usually being masculine.
But since polytheism includes a feminine content within its spiritual council could this be seen to accord females some spiritual relevance?
Can female’s identify more with some of the deities/qualities?
Does it eliminate some potential bias? etc...

tbaba1234: First of all, there is no sex attributed to God in Islam (that is the only way of life , i can talk of).

Like Allah says in the Quran (rough translation): There is nothing comparable to him(Surah 112:4)

However the Quran was revealed in the Arabic Language : “Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. With it came down the Faithful Spirit to your heart – so that you may be among those who give warning – in a clear Arabic tongue.” [Sûrah al-Shu`arâ’: 192-195]

But if there's no gender neutral term in Arabic surely there are plural terms.
Anyway that could be accorded to various faiths as well. But I wasn’t implying that god was a male or that some believers are worshipping a male figure that’s why I specifically stressed the term masculine which however does have male connotations. And I suspect that some people regard the chief pronoun to be masculine so such language was perhaps meant to be analogous. But representing "God" as a “He” makes it seem as though man is the closest that there is to God - but I gather that's more so as an authoritative figure than physical form.

It follows that it is in conformity with the Arabic language; There is no neutral equivalent pronoun like 'It' in the Arabic language. (Even though 'IT' is not appropriate in the english language to describe beings with such knowledge, power and will). Whenthe gender of the subject is unknown or when the subject is plural (includes male and female), the masculine pronoun is used. It is the default pronoun in the arabic language.

Female pronouns are used exclusively for females. 'she' can therefore not be used to refer to Allah because then it will be specifying a gender.

Hmm really? If the Arabic language accords Earth, Universe, Nature etc a gender what pronoun is thus used?

As muslims, we do not attribute any gender, race or tribe to Allah, because he is far above all of that.

The fact that "He" is typically called "Allah" betrays a partial identity don't you think?

Tbaba although I don’t always agree I do appreciate your response however the irony is....

...although Muslim males are permitted to marry a Christian woman for example...one whom you continuously stress that has to be "pious" and "chaste", if the Christian woman was faithful to her own beliefs then she would recognize that she is not permitted to marry outside her faith so it does make me wonder what qualifies as "pious" according to a Muslim man...but it's just a thought and not a question.

plaetton: ^^^^^
Well said.

It is getting more ridiculous by the day.These days, I ask people "how are you?",and they reply "we thank god".
I then asked "how is your family?", again the reply is "we thank god".
Then I asked "how is your business?", again the same response, "we thank god".

At this time, I am confused because they do not answer my simple questions. Then I wait a bit, allow them to relax, and in a different tone, I ask again " so how have you been, whats been going on with you"?, once again, I hear them say " we thank god for everything".

At this time , I am completely exasperated. I give up.

This godism is turning ordinary people into vegetables and really doing major damages to our social fabrics.
it is getting increasingly hard to have a decent conversation with an average Nigerian without god this and god that. One would think that god, the maker and puppet master of the universe, has taken up residence in Nigeria. But there is no evidence to show that.

Lol wow!

[quote author=omo_to_dun]God is not the problem of Nigeria. The problem of Nigeria is Nigerians.[/quote]Agreed.

If this is genuine then it's rather incredible.

^^^
Lol are you referring to polygamy?

However personally I don't think it necessarily does either.

afam4eva: How are those Christian names? Those are Hebrew names. Instead f you to think of how to promote your own indegenous names, you want to help the jews promote theirs.

Lool abi o

tbaba1234: Well, this is the islamic position..

A muslim man that marries a chaste christian/jew must allow his wife practise her faith freely but should raise his kids in Islam.

If the woman is comfortable with that, then they could have a good marriage. It is better to marry someone with good islamic knowledge... Someone that understands the rights of his wife.

The problem would come from family and friends. If there isn't an issue there... Then carry go.

Why should the children be raised as “Muslims”?

In Islam is a woman's faith less valued than that of men?

If the non-muslim woman married to a muslim man allegedy has a right to adhere to the religion of her choice what about potential children? ...following your comments there's no "compulsion" after all....is it not?

Is this part of the reason why Muslim men are allowed to marry specific non-muslims? - to carve into that religious demographic?

I believe that in which is popularly termed as “God” in theory transcends race, sex and culture however in practice the image of “God” has often been manipulated thus promoting certain demographics.

Religion is a reflection of the society it was conceived and many being born of a patriarchal society exerts much masculine relevance from its laws to its deity.

Monotheism erects a singular image of a god; one that is usually a masculine authoritative figure.

Polytheism on the other hand containing multiple gods features both a masculine and feminine presence within its spiritual council. Although the supreme god is usually masculine the inclusion of a feminine content could be seen to accord females some spiritual relevance.
Perhaps such seeming equality is only relative.

Does polytheism contain less bias?
Does polytheism cater to equality more?

Purist thanks for sharing that provoking article, admittedly I am in much agreement with the author. I also appreciate InesQor’s comments.
I was going to subject you all to an epistle style response concerning this subject but I’m more inspired to create another thread.