₦airaland Forum

Long One: Bottom-line, you need to appreciate this mind’s uniqueness, and to help it as much as you can.

Sounds like one of those sponsor a child ads lol.

But thanks for understanding Long One.

Long One: No problem so far, omnipresent is a strong word to use, but I will let it slide.

Lol well I think you're reflecting solely on concrete art and that may largely be my fault because I am discussing raw art but in reality art is everywhere....I guess one may only appreciate that fact depending on their understanding of art.

Erm, don’t agree with your assumption, and then again, I might be ignorant.

Hehe it's more of a generalization than an assumption but in my defence I did preface my account with "some Africans"....well somewhere in my write up

The people who use this are called the Mba Tsav, they are feared, as these forces can be used for good or evil. We also have the Kwagh Hir theatre, where different clans come together to compete through masquerade/dance/storytelling, as it is based on many superstitious and cultural beliefs. To cut the long story short, contrary to what you said, this African ‘art’ is not condemned but celebrated where 50% of ‘one’ comes from.

Of course some works especially those which are considered clean may very well be appreciated but nonetheless that's great

Then again, there are many things that happen in the Dark Continent you can’t explain, so you can’t blame them.

Fair enough.

Me thinks someone’s visited Windsor Castle lately, I don’t see why this should bother you though. Empires were known to get spoils after victories, Lords were known to receive homage from vassals, and Music composers still receive royalties from artists. Basically it involves a superior person and a subject; he was obviously the subject, bending to his master's every whim, else he be replaced by a more subservient one.

Lol I have no desire to visit that castle. Too common for my taste Yeah I know but what Gowon did betrays a lack of respect and reverence. He was under no obligation to donate such gift but he clearly wanted to show off, in the process frustrating the efforts of his compatriots that were/are fighting to have those bronzes returned. Some art is priceless.

I mean, if I conquer your heart, you will give me your best, no?

I will give you the best of what I can offer

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/134/369881311_32914eabd1_z.jpg

Madora (Mupani Worm) by Nicholas Mukomberanwa (B&W)

A figure emerges from the stone and in each hand a mupani worm, a traditional food source in Zimbabwe.

Ptolomeus: My respects dear friend:
First, I insist (and not get tired of it) that witchcraft has its origins in Europe, not Africa. Linking African religions or traditions of witchcraft is a serious error (not yours, of course, but people in general)
I understand that is a serious mistake to undervalue a work of art in its religious connotation. Do not be Catholic to appreciate certain works of Michelangelo, nor should it be Islamist to marvel at the architecture of some mosques. Very respectfully, I believe that Africa has much religiously polarized, and link art with witchcraft may be the result of European interest in the acculturation of Africans. Any nation would preserve those pieces as a historical treasure, for a foreigner like me that are difficult to understand given away, (worst of all is that I doubt very much that the Queen of England just understand the true value of these pieces).
Possibly the greatest wealth that Africa has its culture, its traditions, which are valued around the world ... (paradoxically, everyone except in Africa).
A warm greeting!


Excellent contribution!.
Apparently you are a very instructed in the arts and history of your people, besides being very polite.
My respects.

Hi Ptolomeus

Some works are stigmatized especially those that pose as mediums or spiritual instruments. Regarding those works with a certain caution is then understood but some are just way over the top and round up all work as "witchcraft". I know some people who consider the Benin bronzes as "witchcraft" (maybe because of the animism and motifs depicted) but they didn't even behold the works before summarizing so it just seemed like trained behavior to me.

That's why I asked if work depicting spiritual themes could be detached from witchcraft but I suppose first of all African spirituality has to be detached from negative stereotypes.

One of my colleagues was narrating an encounter she had with her Ugandan friend and when she was witnessing some of the art in London she claimed that some could qualify as "witchcraft". Sometimes are we not just imagining things?

PhysicsQED: Yeah. It's beautiful. All of this art is really creative and beautiful and there's really nothing quite like it in the world. Yet we don't often see or hear about this kind of art whenever really creative art traditions are mentioned.

Does it matter what era of work is posted or are you after work only from a particular period?

^^^
wow

Exquisite
I especially love the luba bow stand.
Great thread.

[quote author=doe-eyed]What seems to be more prevalent is the art of Africanized Europeans in the Senegambia[/quote]Could you enlighten me about this group please.

sauer:

There’s a reason why I asked that specifically sauer.

What we have mostly is art for effect, art for surprise. U got that?

Interesting.
Being satisfied alone by the “effects” is like being delighted by tricks and not pondering the mechanisms behind it all. But if the function is primarily for effect maybe the work is perhaps shallow thus could the audience be blamed for not drawing more from it? I guess that's why I'm disillusioned with the YBA crew amongst other reasons.
Such art is most likely not going to inspire one's thought but merely engage one's attention. I suppose it boils down to what the artist wants to convey/relate.

Actually thinking over what you just wrote I used to wonder why some Nigerians (at least the ones I knew) were less than impressed by Nneka but blown away by Dbanj for example. They would dismiss Nneka as "preachy" whereas Dbanj was more on their level and tailored more to "real" Nigerian music.
At first I honestly thought it was a joke and just a case of hyperbole but I soon found out they were serious.
They couldn't dance to her music they continued venting. And so I considered Fela. Because he would qualify as "preachy" and perhaps even "real" Nigerian type of music and his style was largely for effect since he was actively campaigning musically but then his "preachy" lyrics were also arresting and people must have pondered over them. Nneka has the talent or voice but I guess her persona doesn't have the impact.

I've actually been seeing Oshodi’s work all this while but wasn't familiar with his name before.
Today I’ve only acquainted myself with Iroha but I'm not a stranger to his sort of style. But what you shared about young Nigerian photographers sounds exciting.

Concerning the broader arts I’ve noticed something with francophone Africans.
Francophones have much appreciation for art. And when I say appreciation I don’t just mean as audiences but as artists.
Malian films for example, Music from Ivory Coast (and I’m not talking about coupe decale) etc. . .it’s as if these people were trained in how to manage art by their former colonial master. Not surprisingly the French are great lovers of art. That's not to say the British don’t value art because they certainly do but clearly they had different methods when managing their colonials and the differences seems to have played in the arts.
I also acknowledge South Africa.

By the way, emofine, doeeeyed, nice exchanges, one of you should come into the bedroom with me so we can talk all night about art and painting!

Tell me are you between the ages of 35 and 45? Fishing where you don’t have a license

buzugee: you got jokes

and you got issues

buzugee: emofine i shall have you know that when you get in the kingdom there shall be no lip from you. your duties will involve cooking cleaning and having babies. anything after that you run the risk of getting stoned on the streets of damascus. i shall personally make sure you get thrashed ferociously by the lanyard when we get into the kingdom that will be established when the messiah returns.

I’ll emigrate or volunteer to be murdered. No great loss in exiting the “Kingdom” of cavemens whether by death or transport. But since I'm on cooking duties I may just spike the food et voila. . . afterall if a way to a man's heart is through the stomach then I sure know how to attack it. Confused gentile.

buzugee: all these warm compliments just for me ? you shouldnt have. you are ever so kind

Don't mention it
Shalom.

maclatunji: ^The pictures you have posted so far have no meaning outside being expressions of the artist. Like you said earlier, Islam frowns at drawing animals (including humans) . Hence, things like flowers, shapes and patterns from nature as well as the artists imagination do reflect in Islamic art. Post more of the things you like, let's see.

Oh ok. Do you know of any Muslim artists?

You know when people are restricted or have less options they are often creative.

Ok so since humans/animals are forbidden in Islamic Art can muslims still appreciate other arts that conveys these subjects?

buzugee: What are ya ? mohammed ali ? talking bout i float like a butterfly sting like a bee. scripture says in those days (the near future seeing as world war 111 is about to start)he shall make men as scarce as pure gold isaiah 13 vs 12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. you shall come floating towards my kind in those days because we will be the only ones left. all the heathen men would have been destroyed by the thermonuclear missile

Based on your analogy I’m a “feather” remember?

I’d rather the thermonuclear missile than being stuck with racists, sexist, obnoxious, deluded self-proclaimed "Israelites" and that’s if you guys don’t die of ignorance first. Zion wannabes.

buzugee: SO BASICALLY YOU ARE LIKE A FEATHER THAT IS BLOWN ANY WHERE THE WIND SEES FIT

Clearly not anywhere the wind sees fit. I float well away from your kind's assembly Mr. Brown Hebrew Israelite

buzugee: JACK AND JILL THE ATHEIST

I'm not an atheist. Neither am I racist. Or sexist for that matter.

Has anybody heard of Shirin Neshat? She’s an Iranian artist but I’m not sure of her faith or if she even has one.

But there are some Islamic reference to her work. Here are some examples:


[img]http://irgensdotter.files./2011/12/0d2c_shirin_neshat_012_woman_of_allah_von_shirin_neshat.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/eyeburfi2/15612908429/1/tumblr_lxkloijVwi1r3bizm[/img]

[img]http://3.bp..com/_zW1wT7psmUc/TJ8WeB967oI/AAAAAAAACjM/GvvhJAH3lKQ/s1600/Aprendefotografiadesdecero_Shirin_Neshat_6.jpg[/img]

[img]http://pairsofchairs.files./2012/02/7042_968f.jpg[/img]

[img]http://1.bp..com/-68IICnR5QWI/Tj2gRHq1pII/AAAAAAAAAJo/N9KB-bv25S0/s1600/shirin_neshat-02.jpg[/img]

https://westcollection.org/images/sneshat340.jpg

^^^

I've always wondered what the meanings behind these patterns/designs. Some of them remind me of Moroccan interior designs.

^Can you post pictures of some of this Islamic Art? So that we have an idea of the things you like so much and move from there.

These are the illustrious patterns I usually see of Islamic art:

[img]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCOjkDoNGm3QJpfE01trNNJeQ5AuSnsWbe5_oRxylP0AD9ySh2DytplLBp[/img]

https://www.patterninislamicart.com/ia/ss/mor_0307.jpg

[img]http://2.bp..com/_rwBtn5Q4cxw/TKRD57tcpxI/AAAAAAAAAWE/LIAQfLtfctk/s1600/DSCF1762.JPG[/img]

In terms of architecture, the islamic art would be depicted by the structures of mosques which despite being in different shapes and sizes are almost all d time characterised by minarets and domes. When this practice startted, I dont know of. But a combination of both in a place sure signifies a mosque, or something Muslim or Islamic.

Other symbols very much attributed to Islam are the crescent and star. I have heard these have their origin in Malaysia(but not sure of it). The moon is significant in Islam as you must have known that some acts of worship are subject to the sighting of the moon. What the stars signify I dont know.

Generally, there is nothing spiritual about the symbols. Deciding to use or not use them has nothing to do with faith and Muslims, especially organizations have coined different logos from the most known ones. For example my Muslim primary school has the kaabah and a minaret as its logo and others might just use the crescent and the stars. The hijab has also been used as a logo or symbol of Islam. Flags too, with arabic letterings of varying meanings.

Interesting deols. Much appreciated.

Mosques are certainly beautiful works of architecture but the interior was what I was alluding to (still I don’t mind my attention being brought to other forms of Islamic art). The interior is usually decorated with patterns, I mean I don’t understand any of it but it all just makes sense. Even the prayer mats, the cover of the Quaran (well at least on my Quaran).
Recently A generous Muslim man gave me a gift from his shop. The gift was of Islamic relevance. It was like a sort of disc shaped pottery, with the Arabic inscription of Allah.
There is definitely a collection of art in Islam that I would like to be more familiar with.

buzugee: They are on point. i can write you a biblical thesis on how the west was won, and will do this with scriptural verses mostly.

Exactly. Some of his rhetoric is blatantly racist .

duality: hehe.


I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. luke 13;31

There is one thing I’ve never quite understood with some religious fractions. Why do you feel the need to remind us “heathens” and backsliders that we are going to hell? This is actually another turn off. Is it meant to be threatening or a warning? Although I take it from your “hehe” you’re rather delighted and smug at the prospect of other people’s demise which is quite worrying because you come across as a psycho.

But thanks to people like you I’ve become disillusioned and desensitised by the horrors of hell. At least my likely demise has afforded you some laughter. I guess I can’t be a bad person afterall .

mkmyers45: 1. Explain what you mean.
2. And what conclusion have you come to?
3. Not exactly true...although the role of the catholic church in religious deformity and autocracy cannot be over-emphasized

1) Some people assume that whatever belief system they adhere to will automatically be the one their children will adopt like my parents unfortunately. . .bless them. So when I call myself an apostate I mean that I was once subjected to that belief system as it was the staple religion of my household.

2) I believe spirituality is subjective and the truth is not manifested in one context alone.


3) That’s why I closed the sentence with “from my observation”. I wouldn’t say it’s fact it’s just been my encounter.

students must go to church 4 times a week

Did you guys even have time to revise?

Forcing someone to do something just makes the person hate the thing even more

Exactly.

Logicboy you’re funny but this is quite an interesting thread though and you have some rather good points. I’m a “Christian” apostate (if I ever was a willing Christian to begin with) but no atheist.

I have no contempt for adherents of the gospel or any other belief system for that matter. I understand that many seek salvation in various ways.
But I’m much disgusted by an institution laden with iniquities and covered not by the “blood of Jesus” but that of an anonymous throng of victims that fell short of some criteria yet when the wind blows claims to offer salvation for “all”.

I don’t subscribe to the propaganda that biasedly ranks the Jewish populace as more significant than I and as God’s elect. I do not accept that I am second best. I suppose that made me a bad "christian".

What I disliked the most was that I felt I was being coerced into loving this being because if I don’t I’ll burn. I cannot substitute my faith with force. . Was I supposed to be so afraid of burning that I’ll train myself to love this character? Wouldn't I be governed by fear and not love? Such sounded like manipulation to me. Add to the fact this positioning of oneself or ones institution as the sole owners of the truth and direct channel from God appeared conceited to me.
My ancestors never read the bible but they knew that stealing, killing etc was wrong. They knew this before the bible was even published. And why do I need to connect to God through a Jewish Rabbi that most likely couldn't even pronounce my native name? A Jewish persona that is far removed from me in so many ways.

I've always been inquisitive so I've often questioned why I was a “Christian” . . .if my parents were Muslims would I have been Muslim? Is religion hereditary? Is it right to be complacent in the staple faith of ones household? If such is an individual responsibility shouldn't we seek out the truth for ourselves? Why don’t I feel connected or compatible with this faith if it’s supposed to be universal? Could God not reveal the truth of itself prior to the arrival of the missionaries or in contextually relevant ways to all people?


P.S I notice that it’s usually the Catholics that become atheist than any other Christian denomination….well at least from my own observation hmm.

mkmyers45: The more closer to the equator you are, the more likely the sun will heat your head into spiritual submission

I have no doubt in my mind that everyone appreciates art in one form or another.

Art is stimulating and omnipresent and plays a significant role in society in extension civilization.

However art in relation to African heritage is often stigmatized by those who would have otherwise inherited these arts or would have been best placed to appreciate them.

The condemnation of continental art by suspicious natives is quite alarming especially when such sentiment contrasts with non-Africans who highly regard these pieces. Condemned works that posed as a testament to the sophistication of African civilization and partly redeemed the continents reputation and esteem.

Granted, some of the arts have links to spirituality and some of the art have unique functions.

But is that a legitimate reason not to appreciate or condemn African art?
Can African art with spiritual themes be separated from “witchcraft”?

What some Africans despise in some of these representations is what actually makes those works unique. Art imbued with spiritual undertones is rather sublime as it has a soul.

But what is even more damaging than showing contempt for some of our art is when one who clearly has a low disregard for their background and motivated by outside approval or gain will illegally sell or donate national treasures as a gift thereby selling their culture low in the process.
When a high personality such as General Yakubu Gowon supplies a national treasure as a gift to the Queen adding to the already hefty loot of her country and undermining his compatriots campaign in reacquiring their stolen works I honestly wonder where is the pride and respect.

Where does such attitude come from?

I have to say that my knowledge of African art is limited to the widely publicized Ife, Nupe, Benin bronze mask.

Likewise. But like you said poor patronage and appreciation although I’m confident that will change. However there are some well-known African artists in the Diaspora.
I do try to scan for old and fresh work from the continent though and I must say that the stone carvings/sculptures of Zimbabwe are simply amazing Fantastic even Breath-taking

Soon I intend to visit an exhibition displaying those famous jazzy Ghanaian coffins

Last year or so I attended an exhibition featuring some works from Ile ife and Bini, surprisingly they were pretty small in scale or at least smaller than what I thought they’ll be. Even though I was ecstatic to finally see these works up close I was slightly conflicted because beforehand I watched a mini documentary about the kingdom of Bini and the current Oba uttered something that would now always affect the way I will regard the work of Bini or other African art in captivity for that matter. He said that those pieces were not meant to be displayed in galleries but posed as an album in the absence of any photographic apparatus and having them taken away is like missing chapters in their history book.

I now wonder about the function of many of these art and not just African art.

It’s interesting though. Those works along with Ile Ife had a profound effect on the Europeans even the art world, Picasso for one. The sculptures from Ile Ife were even compared with the works of Italian sculptor Donatella although they knew of casting first before the Europeans.

. . .Hhmm naturalism they say is the highest point in civilization.

But sometimes I think about African art particularly the ancient and how some of it is viewed in Africa or by Africans and I’m alarmed. I don’t understand where the lack of appreciation or indifference comes from. . .religion, superstition? Hmmm

From your writings I see you’re a fan of renaissance art and you have quite beautifully dissected the style and effect. But what are your thoughts regarding the ideas and philosophy behind this art? And their usual theme?

I’m also keen on hearing what you think of contemporary art particularly British contemporary art.

snthesis: "childlike innocence" u r such a romantic

Please don’t patronise me. I’m just narrating how it appears so in the Bible. If Man and Wife were wandering in the garden most likely for years and were very much n[i]a[/i]k[i]e[/i]d what sort of nature did they possess that they had not consummated their union at least seemingly so . . .if they were perfect and without sin they were innocent. . .if they had no carnal knowledge of each other before the advent of sin then their innocence was childlike.

very good storyline

I agree. All credit is due to the bible.

funny enuf the story of Adam and Eve is a typical love story -have u eva being in Love?, one of the attributes of Love is Trust, basically u trust the one you Love not to hurt you by betraying that trust,now if perchance the one you Love betrays you by cheating, whose fault is that

how do you show you trust sum1- easy by giving that sum1 responsibility- God gave us the responsibility of choosing our fate -, he gave us "freewill" and it came with a warning "do not eat of this tree else you will die" it was never a setup, it was a test of Love, and the outcome was never inevitable (funny enough if you look back the probability of man passing that test was alot higher -which was easier Obeying your Maker whom you had regular fellowship or obeying a lowly creature). i.e Does Man Love Me, His Father by keeping My commandment? He trusted us enough to believe we wouldnt put Him to shame, in-spite of all this He still provided a means for reconciliation.

How terrible and disgusting of Eve for wanting to acquire knowledge. Women are indeed the bane of this earth, thank God a man - his beloved son - came down to rescue us all from damnation.
Why were they even prohibited from such acquisition of knowledge?

The whole concept of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a little sketchy in my humble opinion. If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil how then did they know that it was not good to disobey god? - in reference to Eve’s conversation with the serpent.

stop putting the Blame on God, the Blame lies squarely on Man. Satan Never forced Man to eat of the tree, He didnt have Power over Man. "to whom much is given, much is expected"

If someone puts a banana skin on a floor and puts a notice beside it saying “please don’t slip over the peel” is that person absolved if an accident was to occur? Why on earth did God place a prohibited tree in the garden if “he” didn’t want Adam and Eve to have anything to do with it?

Kay 17: I don't think the right question is "why did God create evil", it should be "why did God give man the potential to do evil?"

There isn't the need for justice in a perfect world, its essence is to address and correct imperfection, thus before discussing justice the source of evil/imperfect must be sought.

Objective Good is an alignment/harmony between man, his intellect and Nature in an indestructuve bond, which will result to a full blossom of man's intellectual capabilities

Assuming God created everything and wishes and all acts that accord with it are good, a paradox will arise as to good being the source of evil.

Also note that if God's wishes are the standard of good, then acts like rape, homosexuality, genocide, murder, suicide-bombing are not evil by their NATURE. Good will lack rationality and colour. Like a chameleon, change everytime with the whims of God. Such definition of good is ridiculous. Good (objective) must be a standard independent of a "moral" agent. It could go as ridiculous as evil being good since its a tool by God, its stinks of absurdity.

Interesting.

The source of love? Interesting.

The sun has many connotations especially in certain spirituality.

I sometimes imagine how it must have been like to be confronted with this beautiful glorious golden sphere in an open landscape where all of nature seems to bow down to this giant star and if one could be forgiven for mistaking thinking the sun as god or the creator. After all the sun plays an important part in our existence.
Or maybe I would have just been delirious from too much sun exposure

I’ve listened to peculiar discussions about Africans being more prone to being spiritual . . .some have discussed the relationship between spirituality and darker skin or those who with a higher concentration of melanin and I was thinking. . . if there is a relationship between melanin and the sun and melanin and spirituality how about the sun and spirituality?

I suppose the theory is a little out there and random but can not our natural elements that we are most exposed to influence our perspective?

Hmmm but if there is a connection between spirituality and the sun that would give some people an unfair advantage/disadvantage depending on how one looks at it.

Excuse me for my poor punctuality

Let’s fast forward the era a bit. Doe-eyed what is your opinion on contemporary art?

And what do you think/know of African art?

Art is an important pairing in religion. In fact art is an important tool period; a tool used to highlight another subject.

I've always been intrigued by Islamic art - not only because of the prohibition of any depiction of Allah or the prophet (which has left Islam with no figure illustrations) which is actually unique in a religion but I'm amazed by the decorative designs and patterns. It appears so simple yet so intricate. Even the Arabic script is pretty artistic.

However I doubt these patterns I see in Islamic art are random or meaningless. I wonder what inspired them, what do these patterns convey or mean?

How is art regarded in Islam? Is Islamic art tied to a particular culture? Any Muslim artists one can recommend or even examples of Islamic art?