₦airaland Forum

tintingz:
Ok ok for assumption sake, God exist, so which God?

My God and your God is One

tintingz:
How did you know there is another life? Can you narrate the experience of this your another life before you exist?

You already recognized life exist in mother's womb. But when a baby is born, he doesn't remember all that anymore. Your comment below chose that you recognize evidence of life in the womb

tintingz:
It's simple logic and experiment, scan the mother's womb, flash a light and the baby moves, why should I ask the baby?

It is the same way when you die and wake up in barzakh, you won't at first remember anything about this physical life you are living, just like baby doesn't recognize living in her mother's womb. If you want physical evidence of life after death, you just have to wait until God takes your soul. Thats when you know what's up.

tintingz:
You're providing proof from your Quran, see logic... Allah exist because Quran said so? Then Superman, Batman, wonderwoman exist because the comic books said so, Brahma exist because the Vedas said so, Santa, fairies, Leprechaun, unicorns exist because the magical books said so.

You just proved my point when i said this

Empiree:
You always have something to say. You don't believe in our Divine Book. So trying to give you proof from it is irrelevant. That's why I argue with atheists differently

So what's the point back n forth wit you then?. Why not concede to the fact God exist. You keep bringing "other gods" anytime i mentioned One God or quote from my Book. This is a dead argument, buddy

I have always known that when sun set somewhere it is sunrise elsewhere. My question is, at some point, despite differences in time zones where some countries are ahead of another, for instance, i think Saudi is ahead of many countries. At the time of this post, New York is 3PM and it is sunshine outside while Saudi is 10PM. That's 7 hrs difference. It is sunset at 7:30PM in New York and 2:30AM in Saudi. Obviously there isnt sun around that time. So where is sun at that moment? Bcus at some point, most likely the entire countries would be at night simultaneously with hrs differences. Where is the sun at that moment? That's really my point though.

Remember entire African continent is at night at the time described above, and EU too.

tintingz:
Then we can say divine books doesn't prove God?

No. You should rather stick to the fact that you dont believe in our Divine Book. Our Book says what i have been saying wihtout making reference to it that;


Say, [O Muhammad], "Travel through the land and observe how He began creation. Then Allah will produce the final creation. Indeed Allah , over all things, is competent."

So what I, just like others have been doing was to call your attention to what God created. This is why i said earlier that quoting tafsir or religious text does not help atheists. What helps them is by using themselves as proof of God's existence. And Quran verse just buttressed by point. EXPLORE AND OBSERVE


Another verse


Do they not look into the realm of the heavens and the earth and everything that Allah has created and [think] that perhaps their appointed time has come near? So in what statement hereafter will they believe?

Baby can see light, not that they actually see fully, but how does this relate to dreams?

How do you know baby sees light?. Did a baby tell you this?. Please dont tell me you know through scientific evidence. The only evidence you can provide is a baby told you this and how he told you (I am using your weapon against you).

When you close your eyes and a light is directed toward your eyes, won't you sense it?

what type of strawman argument is this. You don't see the light all the time when you close your eyes. You can be sleeping in a dark room for an hour and i come in and turn on the light, and you still have no idea whats going on.

Dream is when you sleep off and your REM started functioning, the activity of your brain started working, then you start seeing imaginations, figments. Dreams are reflection of your thoughts, your past, presents. When you are hungry, there is high chance you will dream of eating, when you watch too much horror movies or Nollywood superstitions or believe in demons, Jins, witches etc and you take them serious, there is high chance of having nightmares.

I dont deny all these. These are just subconscious moments. Dream also come to send message. And not all the time you watch horror movie you have bad dream.. Not all the time you ate ewa without drinking you dream about oceans/beaches.

You should wonder why religious people mostly have nightmares, and they end up duped by this so call spiritual leaders.

shaking for you man. There are bunch of psychos in the West who are essentially godless and they have something speaking to them in their brain and they either commit suicide or kill others. Another mass shooting just happened in Florida carried out by atheist bcus FSM was speaking to him

Where were you before you became fetus in your mother's womb.

I was in another life in the bottom of my father. That was another life before i came into existence. You think this is only one life we have, just bcus this is only life you can see?. You have a long way to go man

The premise of the argument is about afterlife.

Afterlife is real my friend. Dont become 'adorun mooto'

Do you believe we will reincarnate?

This issue is a matter of iktilaf amongst people (muslims and nonsense muslims). Yes, there is "reincarnation" but how we do muslims believe it?. It is not about same dead man comes to life to live in another part of the world as a complete human. I think this is what yoruba called akudaya. Without wasting much of my time, this is believe to be handiwork of jinn. They clone people. I think we have hadith to this effect. Cloning.

AlBaqir:
This is serious. I really really wish to learn more about Yoruba mythology, cultures and rituals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw36-siaubo

YorubaAssasin:
Congrats to our okoro-Bia-furo blodas..

BTW... Which kain yam be dat sef?

Oh sorry, na 'cocaine-induced' yam, I forgot.

you funny

thanks for propagating to your fellow Christians. You will eventually drive them to embrace Islam.

Thanks a lot



Meanwhile

tintingz:
How does a divine book prove God exist?

Which God exist?

You always have something to say. You don't believe in our Divine Book. So trying to give you proof from it is irrelevant. That's why I argue with atheists differently

This here is full of superstitions.

First of all dreams are not real, they are your figment of your imaginations.

but you believe Doctor when he reveals utrasound displays activities of baby in the womb, right?. Do you know that baby can see outside of the womb especially when doctor is trying to take their picture, some of them cover camera to avoid being snapped. You believe all that right? So what made you think dreams aren't true?. Dream are reflections of what goes on.

Secondly, the fact that you don't know where you are before you exist inside your mother's womb, shows no one knows nothing, how come you now there's afterlife?

speak for yourself

Thirdly, do you believe we will reincarnate?

you are still struggling with your believe in God and here you jumped onto another one. You are incredible

usermane:
I can't continue with this because you already implied that God will hesitate to forgive people who sincerely repent, unless they fast on days like Arafat.

where did I say this?. Underlined is simply A+, that's what you don't get. I didn't say there is no forgiveness besides this day or days like it.

One last thing; I also think you have a wrong understanding of the purpose of fasting.

you can quote me what I said?. What's the purpose of fasting?

tintingz:
This is not what I asked.

Ok, assuming there would be a conflict if there are many Gods, which God exist, why that God not others, any proof?

You're still attacking strawman, I gave you example of Hindus Vedas being a divine text from Brahma.

Now another question is, how those a divine book prove God, I mean anybody can come up with mythical stories and claim it's divine?

this is like perambulating. Ain't going in cycle with you.

Who's eager? I asked you to tell me how you know there's afterlife?

God gives us pictorial of events of Afterlife starting from the time you sleep, till you enter your grave and till Afterlife.

When you sleep have you ever seen yourself in trouble and running away from something and it scares the heck out of you?. It appears as though you are in that horrible situation for many years, meanwhile you are actually in your bed sleeping for few hours?.

Have ever seen yourself in a nice place having nice time and it is as though you can't have enough of it?. What do you think is going on?.

It is not just a dream my friend. That's your soul chilling in another space and time until you wake up. That's another life right there.

That's an example of life besides your life laying down in bed for few hours while your life elsewhere is presented to you in your dream. Or you forgot that before the life you are currently living, you lived a life before this?. When you were in your mother's womb, that's another life. If someone told you in the womb that there is a physical life you probably wouldn't believe it. Nine months later you find yourself here and your are so scared. That's why baby cry. The same scenario will be repeated when you enter your grave and open your eyes in Barzakh {another life}. You get scared again. This is why it is recommended to offer saara on behalf of the dead to ease them while going through this terrible transition.

This is example of Hereafter. It will look like dream.

You can not deny what I just said here because this is fact everyone experiences. This is haqiqa (factual proof) not essentially mythical book.

usermane:
Delay in sunrise may be due to atmospheric factors that obstruct the solar radiation from reaching us. This does not practically mean the sun is still absent when it's suppose to have risen.

this is the point here but you used scientific terms to shield yourself. You agree it does gets delayed sometimes. That's my point

What about the Qur'anic verses on the sun prostration?
I personally understand that the sun does not need a break at sunset to prostrate, it prostrates while its functions as a lamp. I believe the sun prostrate at sunrise, mid morning, noon afternoon, dusk, twilight etc. I don't believe the sun has specific time for prostration.

I don't disagree with this

usermane:
Peace Emp.iree

"The person who fast on Arafat day is forgiven quicker than he who doesn't". Would have even be more convincing if you brought forth a supporting hadith or verse for such interpolation. You've now introduced another concept; Speed of sin forgiveness.

walaikum Salam.

You are the one making it sound like interpolation. You will not be allowed to deprecate the importance of Arafat and its benefits. Maybe I should rephrase it this way perhaps you may assimilate a little. Our sins are forgiven too on other days of the months before Ramadan if we make sincere tawba. But we stand better chance in Ramadan especially last 10 Days and most especially on the Night of Layla tul Qadri. We tend to devote a lot on special events and leave sins compared ordinary days. Same applies to Arafat.


^^^^

You're basically saying that God holds back on forgiving sinners that repents, except for those sinners that fast on special days.

Your opinion refer to my comment ^^

usermane:
Peace.

Let's not lose perspective. My entire purpose of raising this discussion from Dontconvert2Islam is to point the fact that many Muslims today remain ignorant & and those who are not ignorant do not want to understand traditional Islam from the perspective of ijma. You and many others, deny the ijma on several verses and hadith, and interpret them in your own way. When ever you decide to go against the ijma like this, you're basically doing ijtihad. And such ijtihad is illegal from a traditional scholarly standpoint.

This is my whole point. I must have lost you somewhere along the line. But I was never expressing a need for reform.

not necessarily. In most cases when we say "this is what they mean" doesn't also mean we go against ijma. It is just further explanation for clarification purposes. Simple.

Now I ask again you, what exactly you want to be reformed?. I don't think you have given one example yet. If you talking about things like what made Don'tconver2islam felt betrayed, that's a matter of translation from Arabic and explaination which he simply was not interested in because he made up his mind despite many people came up to explain to him.

Overhaul reform is not necessarily needed. What is needed is education and proper coordination in my view. Understood now that your are not necessarily expressing a need for reform

tintingz:
The same way you theorized the existence of Allah is the same way I can theorize the existence of santa, Easter bunny, Leprechaun, tooth fairies, Zeus, Odin and other imaginary friends and fairy entities.

so how many gods and creators are there?. Told you before they would have conflicted over another if they are co-equals in creation and monitor their affairs. I have given you illutration of this before isn't?. And where are their Devine books?

Ok, since no one came back to tell how afterlife is, how come you know there's afterlife?

and why are you eager?. Why not wait to see for yourself?. When you get there you know what's up. You will feel like returning to the world to make corrections

tintingz:
Show me prove your God exist!

you are already presented various psychological and theoretical argument of existence of God but you failed to face reality and you consider it mythology. I am not interested going back and forth over this.


The only thing i will respond to is this. Everything else is irrelevant

What if a dead theists come back to life and said there's no God?

You should be ashamed of yourself for typing this. You should cover your face in shame. Since people (believers and nonbelievers) have been dying, who came back to life to tell story?. It is over there everyone will be paid in full

mrbanji:
Empty or loaded ?

if it is loaded, is the clearance price higher?. And are the loads safe in case?

tintingz:
Hindus believe when they die, they will reincarnate same as Buddhist and some other religions out there.

Hades is God of death, do you believe that?

Does existence of God base on fear of death? If yes, then this makes your God meaningless reason because we have people that died without believing in God.

Question is, do you believe in these Hindu and Buddhist gods?. I'm not worried about Islamic God for now. I am simply talking about God.

Anytime we talk about God you start talking about other gods from other religions. Do you believe in those other gods?.


Yes, there are proofs of existence of God in everything. Just bcus a dead atheist doesn't believe God doesn't prove He doesn't exist. If only dead atheist can talk only then you know what's up.

Your problem is "seeing is believing". This doesn't apply to God because if He allows Himself to be seen, you will still come up with trash talk. Even a staunch anti-Islam, Michael Savage would disagree with you. He once said in his radio talk host that "atheists are stewpid bcus the moment they see physical God they just brush Him side like 'oh well, we've seen you, He's just one of those things nothing special.. Next. So it makes sense that God is hidden"

These were his words 2yrs ago. Now watch this 6mins clip where he repeated something similar. Save yourself time and watch from 3:00min


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoHj7mz_boM&t=302s


Video below is good argument with atheist. This is 7mins



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT9jJCypw_s&t=329s

tintingz:
Cancer and old age.

you have problems. Serious ones. You still fail to recognize reality. Illness is separate from death. As for age related, this is part of predestination. Quran speaks of stages of man till he returns to God. So your science and technology are useless here

Science and technology never claim to be perfect but they far more useful and save lifes than your God.

you need not to worry about our God. He already ordained death which we already accepted. There are people who survived cancer which means illness is separate from death.

tintingz:
What's your point?

You claim yuou dont believe in God or supernatural Being. So i asked, what killed Senator John McCain?

You believe everything is about science, so i asked, why is science and technology not save him now since they are physical treatments?

tintingz:
This is fallacy, Argumentum ad ignorantiam, psychological projection.

Can you tell me things that happen to athiests that doesn't happen to religious people or theists, while you make this fallacious statement of yours, I wonder why your almighty God can't save his worshipers that die daily, do you know how many people that have died in hajj pilgrimage?

Why do religious people go to hospital for treatment, why can't they stay at home and wait for the almighty God to heal them?

Did John McCain claim he's immortal and can't die, is he an atheist? He even died at age 81, what is your point oga?

Why does your God want people to die, is there not a place where humans can't die, what does your self-sufficient God wants to gain in all these? The more you question this the more meaningless it sounds and the more meaningless the answers you get. This is the reason I counter Sino's argument and your argument you lots don't know the purpose of this world, you only know the purposeless of the wonderland paradise, the Earth, living is meaningless to you folks because there's already an imaginary perfect place you look out for.

Death does not prove God, if you believe death proves God then Hades is the God.

Does anyone understand this man?. Does he really understand my point at all?.

[quote author=tintingz post=70622159][/quote]Death of senator John McCain is another lesson for you to learn from. See how the world is so helpless to rescue him out of his health problems?. Is it the money they don't have?. Is it scientific and technological treatments they dont have?. Are there no scientists, energies not here to figure out how to cure him of his cancerous tumors?. They have everything at their disposal but they are all helpless in the face of death.

If this doesn't teach you a lesson that there is a Supreme Being who exercises His Supreme Authority over His creations, i dont know what will. This is why i have said that when it comes to debating atheist, the best way to argue with them is their own selves, not tafsir of Quran or any religious literatures. These are just backup.

You may argue that it is cancer disease that killed him. But then, aren't there scientists that you believe in to solve his health problems?. Let me remind you that death is one thing on the side, health issue is another. Death may occur without any medical condition. So question is, who give brings death?. My answer is the One who gives life (God). Again, the whole world of scientific and technological advancement were helpless and watched John McCain die. This is parable for you and me. All his achievements in this world means nothing now when he gets in his grave. The earlier you retract your step the better for you.

usermane:
Peace!

There is no proof in such verses that God forgives people sins that have not been committed yet. Forgiveness comes after sin, not before sin.
Also, yes. God may forgive past sins of over a year, but do you think one really need to fast before this can happen?
Do you think that unless one fast on Arafat day, he cannot be forgiven for his sins of the last 12 months?

no. Allah may forgive sins at anytime. But you stand better chance at critical time of mandatory rituals like this. Hajj in itself rebirth you. Therefore, fast on Arafat stands the chance of being forgiving faster than any regular days. It is no problem if you don't believe it. That's btw you and your Lord. There is nothing to reform in this.

Speaking on the verse you quoted. I absolutely agree that God is merciful enough to forgive any amount of sins. But, it must be borne in mind that if the sinner returns to such sins, God will no longer forgive him. One can't continue to take God through a repetition of 'sin and asking forgiveness'. That will be insincere on the part of the sinner.

well, agree due to another verse which states that God forgives sin done in ignorance but not sin delibrately perpetrated. But again, His Mercy is beyond measures. You aren't in position to determine who and what He forgives and what He doesn't.

People should be taught that their past sins are forgiven if they permanently stop committing them. No amount of fasting will forgive your sins of 2018, if you resume those sins later in 2019. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

of course people are reminded of this. The verse of quran and many Hadith said the same. When kitab and sunnah say God forgives, they simply encourage you not to lose hope.

That hope is portrayed in another Hadith when it says for as long as you don't commit major sins, if you sin again and again and you ask for forgiveness God will forgive. This doesn't in anyways encourages recurring sins. It rather encourages tawba (returning to God by constantly ask for forgiveness), due to another hadith which says God loves those who sin but constantly turn to Him. But those who sin and refuse to ask for forgiveness dare God or lose hope like you do. God says He hates those people. He would replace them with those who sin and ask for His forgiveness. This is why Tijaniyya sect made it mandatory to recite

Isgifar 100

La ilaha ila Allahu 100

Salawat ala nabi 100

morning and night in their litanies. This is where Sufism is derived.

usermane:
Well, the ball is in your court. I was only pointing out that your reasoning for the death of ijtihad is wrong.



This doesn't answer the question. Why did the update stop permanently in the first place. You mean for over 10 centuries, they had no update to make? And What Saudi literature and UAE literature? The Ijma is not not region specific.



Happy!? Man, sometimes ago, the Saudi Prince or King spoke of vetting sahih hadith. You really think such announcements are enough to make my day? I am not living in a sharia state, I'm not bound by your laws & traditions, evolving them is of no benefit to me in any kind. The only reason I discuss them is because I understand they deviate from God's teachings and they harm minorities and innocent people in God's name.



And their work is suddenly only in disharmony with our times? Do you realize there's been call for Ijtihad since the 18th century in the Muslim world.

You don't seem to read Muslim history from diverse sources. I will at this point finally state the reason why ijtihad is dead and why the only canon interpretation of traditional Islam is the Ijma of Malki, Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi'i and Ja'fari schools of jurisprudence.

If you still remember, there are hadith stating;
- the best generations are the Prophet's, and the following two generations after him.
- that the Muslim ummah will never agree on something wrong.
- that a time will be reached where Muslims will be ignorant because all the knowledgeable scholars will have passed away.

Considering these hadith at a point in history, the scholars decide, "You know what, we've explained everything. We've done all the work for future Muslims. If they stick with this, they'll never go astray. They will not be qualified enough to do Ijtihad any better than we've done." This is how ijitihad ended.

Today, it is completely frowned upon for even Muslim scholar to arrive at a different conclusion from the Ijma. If today, as a Muslim, you are interpreting an hadith or verse differently from the Ijma interpretation, you are totally committing an offense.

For you as a lay man in traditional Islamic law, you can only stick with the ijma. You can't differ from them.

No, the highlighted you cited is rather referring to rituals and good deeds. For instance, no matter how great our generation is, we can not be greater than the Sahaba. Why?. Because they met the prophet (saw). They saw him. They struggled with him yet a whole lots of them don't even know or read many books like we do. Yet many things we know today are derived from their practical work. They endured worst hardships. So those who met the prophet are greater than is in this sense.

Only a faction amongst muslims closed the door on ijtihad. Not so Muslims. I remember having discussions with a brother here who always disagree with me, and he said there is no more ijtihad IF we encounter a situation and the situation has precedent, then we apply ijtihad done by sohaba. We only apply our own ijtihad IF situation did not exist in their time. He said. Many times have told him that sahaba aren't here now and we are faced with new situations but he snubbed me.

Actually I should ask you what do you mean by ijtihad?. What do you expect to be amended in iur literature? Salat, Ramadan, Hajj, ZAKAT?

Or Huddud?. I need to understand this please. What exactly do you want to be reformed?.


Is this type of reform you talking about?

There is no proof in such verses that God forgives people sins that have not been committed yet. Forgiveness comes after sin, not before sin.
Also, yes. God may forgive past sins of over a year, but do you think one really need to fast before this can happen?
Do you think that unless one fast on Arafat day, he cannot be forgiven for his sins of the last 12 months?

usermane:
First, do you really think God will forgive all Muslim's sins of last this lunar year and the next lunar year if he fasts on Arafat day?

Do you think a one day fast can wipe away so much past and future sins?

What is your take on sins and forgiveness in Islam.

Are you despair or in doubt that Allah forgives sins of the past, present and future?. If that's your thought, then, that's you. You will find Allah where you leave Him. If you think He can not or does not forgive your sin bcus of 1 day fast on Arafat, it means you place your doubt in Him. In that case, let me remind you of this hadith


The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) said: “Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, says, ‘O son of Adam, as long as you call on Me, I shall forgive you of what you have done, and think nothing of it. O son of Adam, even if your sins were to reach up to the clouds in the sky, and then you were to ask for My forgiveness, I would forgive you and think nothing of it. O son of Adam, even if you were to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and then you were to meet Me after death, not worshipping anything besides Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as the earth.’” [Tirmidhi]


O, I forgot you don't believe hadith. Very well then. Let's take a look at ayah of Quran (Sura Az-Zumar)


Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."


If you think he doesn't forgive your sin for fasting on Arafat, you simple lose hope and you have no faith.

usermane:
There was iktilaf with boxing gloves back in the days. There were physical clashes between students of one imam and students of another imam. Even the imams themselves were threatened. The Hanbali students have been reported to have attacked Al Tabari, destroyed his house, where he died under the rubble.
This can be found in works of even Muslim historians.

Well, you can say that again.

[quote]I didnt say get rid of old books. I say why haven't they been update?

Well, it is a matter of ijma. For as long as their differences outweigh their similarity it will take donkey years. Plus outside influences play major role. For instance, Western world are tampering with UAE and Saudi literatures.

I mean, you understand that Islam has to evolve, right?

You happy bcus i said that?. Let me clarify so that we know where we stand. There are practices ordained by Allah and they are static till Qiyamah. No matter how much our world develops, they can not be interpolated. Examples of this are: Five daily obligatory salat and their sunnah sunnah. Ramadan in its right time. Zakat and Hajj in their right time. They can not change. Meaning we can not fix them like Xmas, Hanukkah, Yum kimpul etc are fixed.


Also hudud which refers to punishments which under Islamic law (shariah) are mandated and fixed by God can not change regardless of how much the world develops. Example of hadd for theft is cutting hand or finger whatever it is. Lashes for adultery and fornication etc. These will not change.

On the other hand punishment that are not prescribed directly by Allah may evolves over time. For example, i dont think i have seen punishment for drinking alcohol, Islamic govt may decide flogging or jail. This is also consider Sharia law but under different category. This is a matter of figh or jurisprudence. Another example is homosexual. There is no punishment prescribed in the Quran but it condemns it. For the sake of sanity in muslim community, authority has the right to legislate punishment regardless of what international trash has to say. Another example is apostasy. There is no direct hadd in the Quran but authority has the right to enact law to punish offenders. Punishment for this varies from country to another. So this aspect evolves. Some may also look into hadith to seek to apply whatever is there. It may no be binding but it is also consider Sharia Law. So now you understand what i meant by Islam evolves. It doesn't mean "I do whatever i want, this is 21st century"

The Imams themselves wrote very little upon death. Their students and students of their student kept updating the original work. This is evolution, but this was arrested in 10-11th century.

You can say that again

Next, there were way more than 4 schools of jurisprudence. Iktilaf may be the reason why only 4 schools were legalized later on. But why did these for schools stop updating their work? There is a huge reason for this, it's not iktilaf.

Perhaps bcus they are close to kitab and sunnah than the former, and well placed things in perspective. You definitely don't expect them to have updated their original work since their work was in harmony with what goes on in their time. Listen, God's Law in the Supreme Law and Supreme Authority.

AlBaqir:
This is serious. I really really wish to learn more about Yoruba mythology, cultures and rituals.

The telephone invention part really got me like Really good to know that. I research it and found it to be true. Not all yoruba mythology involved shirk but modern ones are corrupt.

usermane:
OK. Please Empiree, Rashduct4luv lets restrict our posts to the subject of the thread; Arafat fast, Eid date, Abraham's test, Dhabiha, and meat.

This not 2015 anymore. I no longer do back and forth debate on validity of Hadith with anyone. What I do now is criticism of Hadith matn (content).

well, let me see where you are driving at. Ofcourse I understand that Arafat is separate from Eld. This is why Eld lasts for 3 days. Some celebrate eld on Tuesday. Some on Wednesday. Some Thursday this yr.

I don't know if that's what you are referring to. So clarify yourself before I comment further. But Arafah is one day.

usermane:
Empiree, the problem the traditional Muslim community faces is this. There is yet to be an official update on the Ijma since about the 10th century. If you collect the books of ijma today, they are basically the translation of ancient work, no correction, no revision. Without resorting to Ijma, it is difficult for a critic to decide what constitute traditional Islam, how is this or that hadith interpreted.

This is why sometimes I criticize an hadith, and you come up with; "Oops, that is not the meaning, you're taking the hadith in isolation". Well, that's the meaning according to Ijma.

First, it is impossible due to too many iqtilaf today. I mean iqtilaf with boxing gloves. Back then their had iqtilaf peacefully without calling one another names.

Also, it is impossible to get rid of old books. They are still relevant because at some point, they are needed for logical deductions. It is like bible. The moment a sect wants to fix something another sect come up with their own version of the Bible.

usermane:
I told you long before that the sole duty of the messenger is to convey the message(Qur'an 5:99). If there is anything needed for practice, the Lord will include it in the Qur'an. I can't believe I'm getting sucked into the rabbit hole again.

Man, "Is God not enough for His servant?"(Qur'an 39:36).

smh... So when Quran says "iqama salat" you mean the prophet (saw) just conveyed to them the same phrase without telling them what that is?. You are incredible

When Quran says "the month of Ramadan is the month in which Quran was revealed", you mean the prophet just conveyed the same phrase without demonstrating what it is?. How would his companions know when it is month of Ramadan if not through his demonstration?. You are incredible

Sorry, brother. Qur'an isn't a novel.

usermane:
Let me explain.
In view of the clergymen, there is Qur'an, there is hadith and there is Ijma. For the traditional scholars;
- the Qur'an must be understood from the view of ancient exegetes like Ibn Kathir. You hold this view as well.
- the Hadith also interprets, interpolate and extrapolates the Qur'an for practical purposes.
- then Ijma is the scholarly consensus, it is the in-depth elaboration of Qur'an and Hadith for practical purposes.

I believe you agree with all of the above.

If we look at Ijma, we will find that the interpretation of the hadith on sex with female captives differ widely from what you understand. To be more direct, find out the position of the four traditional sunni schools of jurisprudence on this issue.

It seem like sometimes you deviate from Ijma. You're not alone in this, tbaba234 does it as well, many traditionalists today do it. But there are many traditionalists who will oppose you for this. You will meet strict traditionalists who insist on implementing verses and hadith according to Ijma, not Ijma of contemporary scholars like Yasir Qadhir.... etc, but earliest jurists of Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali or Shafi schools of jurisprudence.

In that case, how will you deal with such fundamentalists? You think you can convince them to overlook the consensus of the ancient jurists in certain cases? When in fact you follow the consensus in other cases?

well, the Imams, as i said before did near perfect job by putting things together. If they were alive today, they would revisit some of their figh. That doesn't mean they are wrong. This is why I said many times that Islam evolves. There are new developments. Islam is not static. Example of this is land of muslims and land of kufar. That muslims can not live in land of kufar except with conditions.

There is no such thing in our time bcus the lands of kufar themselves there are indigenous muslims, either by birth or by conversation. But this doesn't mean Aimmah were wrong. They did what they had to do based on their time.

Their ijma isn't binding 100%. We can only deduce from their text. Ijtihad is based on TIME.

As for those who hold this idea of holdng on to ijma of the past 100% without room for ijtihad or new reasoning, simply closed the door on ijtihad. This is rigidity and it is unnecessary. Islam is for the past, present and future. Therefore, there will always be new things. In that case ijtihad is necessary without putting on boxing gloves at each other.

Therefore "don'tconver2islam" betrayed himself. It really means he had no faith. True faith begins after been tested. He was tested and he failed.