₦airaland Forum

emofine:
Hi enigma thank you for your reply and encouragement - very much appreciated.

Well the church I used to attend was so holy to the point sometimes I felt my long skirt is not long enough. It's as if I couldn't keep up with the holiness being preached, the bar is so high I thought I don't think I can achieve this - or maybe because I'm young an' all but my peers are youth leaders  .

In my bid to try and keep up I've discovered I'm actually competing and I feel that type of christianity is so fake and limited because if I won this pseudo-competition then what other yard stick am I measuring myself against. To be honest I don't believe I can match Jesus - well he is the Son of God - so I didn't really want to emulate him in the first place, I even find fasting and praying difficult. I keep on faking my enjoyment when I'm in the assembly of others but deep down I can't go on like this. Today I never went to church again sadly, but I will definately make the effort next week  

Ha ha ha   and here was I saying you should find a more sober church; perhaps I should have said a more balanced church.   And this is the difficulty that we all have ---- finding a church that does not veer two much in either wrongful direction --- undue legalism or licentiousness.

Whatever the case, it is important that you (we all) stop looking at man and rather look up to Jesus; if man likes, let them say don't wear earrings, only wear purdah or if the other side says oh you are no longer a sinner so you can dress anyhow you like. Ignore all of them: study the words of Jesus and try to tailor your conscience and actions to His teachings; that way you will be fine and that way you will have peace within no matter what other people say or think.  

^^^ Good post and a generally better approach.

Just a few observations. Firstly, notice that Jesus preached "repent and believe the gospel" even before His death and resurrection; however, He of course went on in the future to explain the necessity of His death and resurrection to His close disciples and to give indication of those events even to His opponents.

Second, what is it that prompts a person to repentance and believing/saving faith in the first place if not the Spirit of God? In this sense, we can say that at the least God and His Spirit is already active and working in/on a person even before the person repents/believes.

Third, of course as Christians we believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Only in Him does any person (Old Testament or New Testament) have reconciliation to God. In the post-resurrection era, we must indeed preach Christ to ignorant people ---- including those who acknowledge the Christian God. This was the approach of Paul at Areopagus in Acts 17; tell the people about the God they worship in ignorance and ask them to come out of such ignorance.

However, we must not be presumptuous to take the role of God, to play God; we must leave room for God to be God and to be sovereign. What he has called us to do is to preach the gospel ---- forgiving/forgiveness and justification are for God Himself to do.

In 1 John 5:1 is an apparently straightforward passage but with more ramifications than at first appears:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

1. Is the person born of God because he believes that Jesus is the Christ?

2. Or does the person believe that Jesus is the Christ because the person is born of God?

3. We may also throw in: can a person who truly loves the Father (without knowing the Son) be taken to really love the Son as well ----- especially as we believe that the Father and Son are One?

Joagbaje is actually preaching salvation by works without realising it. See the fault in his logic:

- A sinner is a sinner because it is his nature
- That sinner is spiritually dead

- If he is spiritually dead, how then does he become sufficiently awake spiritually to be able to "repent"?

- If it is simply the sinner's repentance (and verbal confession) that make/s him "born again", is that sinner not entitled to boast? Which is exactly what Joagbaje and his ilk do --- boast about their claimed salvation and how they "won" or maybe even "saved" gazillion souls.

Again, here the opening poster says he keeps asking the Christian God for forgiveness; Jo says the guy has no business asking the Christian God for forgiveness if he is not "born again"! Question once again: if the guy is asking the Christian God for forgiveness, does he not by so doing acknowledge the Christian God as God? Another question: does Joagbaje really know when a person is "born again" --- when making a person "born again" is an action of God and not of man? Does he know whether the reason the guy considers it necessary to ask the Christian God for forgiveness is because the Spirit of God prompts the guy to do so? Does Joagbaje know whether the Spirit has already "born the guy again" is why the guy is prompted to ask for forgiveness?

Looking beyond Joagbaje, a few things to bear in mind:

- Except a person be "born again" . . .

- However, a person cannot "born himself again"; a person cannot make himself born again --- even if he repents.

- It is God that "borns a person again" ----  John 1:13

Which were born, not [/b]of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, [b]nor of the will of man, but of God.

- Repentance after all means, among other things, 'turning back to God'; how can a person turn back to God unless the Spirit of God draws the person? The chap who asks God for forgiveness is already in the beginning throes of repentance and I am certain God will not cast him away --- since God is the one drawing him in the first place!

Jesus died for all sinners and through Him God made provision for the forgiveness of everyone.

Romans 4:5

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked {ungodly}, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 5:6

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7

Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

Rom 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

PS I know  what Joagbaje and co do with that last Romans 5:8 - essentially that it applies only to Christians who are now "not sinners" - but don't consider it worthwhile to try and refute that.

Short exercises for you:

Before Jesus' death and resurrection, was it every Jew that obtained salvation ? If not which ones did not and why not?

Also: before Jesus' death and resurrection, did any person from any other nation apart from Israel obtain salvation? If so, how?

Today, if a Moslem/Hindu etc offends you and asks for forgiveness, will you forgive them or not; are you required to forgive them or not? If they offend the Christian God and ask Him for forgiveness, what is He likely to do?

Go and think about those.

PRINCE4CHRIST:
I need a pastor to interpret this for me pls!
   I found myself asking God for forgiveness daily because each day will never pass unless i commit one sin or the other. Now i begin to imagine myself, how can i ask God to for give me and commit that same crime tomorrow Will He really Forgive?

If we are honest, all of us commit one sin or other each day --- see, even in a lot of things that we post here and our attitude in posting. It may be that you are referring to "more serious" sin; nevertheless, the first thing is indeed to turn to God for forgiveness, then to repent, resolve to avoid the sinful actions and to keep seeking the help of God in/through prayer, study, consciousness of His presence at all times; fellowshipping with others may also help. Of course we are not perfect and will still often fall short but thankfully we can seek forgiveness and even the Lord's prayer has a recognition of the need for and availability of forgiveness.

emofine:
Brother PRINCE4CHRIST, I am in the same boat as you. It's even because of this continual relapse I stopped going to church. I know that we are not super human but how comes my spritual life is too brief, I also find myself not enjoying it also. I am currently in a spirtual abyss.

In addition to what I wrote in response to PRINCE4CHRIST, I would say it probably does not help to stop going to church ------- although this depends considerably on the church. If you can find a more soberly disposed church and one not dominated by the prosperity "gospel", it may help you to rediscover that which is missing.

Finally, I am only advising because I have perspectives ---- not because I am particularly better than either of you. 

Try http://gotquestions.org/

Don't know how true the story is but it is copied from elsewhere.


http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/a-psychic-discovers-jesus-0

One for thehomer and crew  ---- dodgy sensationalist headline of course considering the reality of the story.

From
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/einstein-was-right-you-can-be-in-two-places-at-once-2162648.html

A device that exists in two different states at the same time, and coincidentally proves that Albert Einstein was right when he thought he was wrong, has been named as the scientific breakthrough of the year.

The machine, consisting of a sliver of wafer-thin metal, is the first man-made device to be governed by the mysterious quantum forces that operate at the level of atoms and sub-atomic particles.

Normal, everyday objects obey the laws of conventional Newtonian physics, named after Sir Isaac Newton, but these rules break down on the sub-atomic scale and a whole new branch of theoretical physics had to be invented to explain what happens on this sub-microscopic level.

Einstein was the first to embrace quantum physics but later rejected it on the grounds that it made everything unpredictable – "God does not play dice with the universe," he famously stated.

However, a range of effects has been recorded over the past few years that can only be explained by quantum mechanics and in March scientists were able to build the first device that seemed to follow the quantum rules that Einstein was the first to realise applied to light waves.

The breakthrough, recognised by the journal Science as the most significant this year, opens the way to a range of practical developments such as quantum computers that are far faster than conventional processors and which could never be hacked into because they handle and transmit data using an unbreakable form of encryption.

"Quantum theory dictates that a very tiny thing can absorb energy only in discrete amounts, can never sit perfectly still, and can literally be in two places at once," said Adrian Cho, a writer for Science. "This represents the first time that scientists have demonstrated quantum effects in the motion of a human-made object. It opens up a variety of possibilities ranging from new experiments that meld quantum control over light, electrical currents and motion to, perhaps someday, tests of the bounds of quantum mechanics and our sense of reality."

The breakthrough was achieved by physicists Andrew Cleland and John Martinis from the University of California at Santa Barbara. Their machine consisted of a tiny metal paddle made of semiconductor material just visible to the unclothed eye. By supercooling the device to just above absolute zero (minus 273C), then raising its energy by a "single quantum", they made it vibrate by getting thicker and thinner at a frequency of some 6 billion times a second, producing a detectable electric current. They even managed to get it to vibrate in two energy states at once, both a lot and a little – a phenomenon allowed only by the rules of quantum mechanics.

"Physicists still haven't achieved a two-places-at-once state with a tiny object like this one," Mr Cho said. "But now that they have reached this simplest state of quantum motion, it seems a whole lot more obtainable."

^^^ There is an important point hidden in this post. When a "not born-again" person seeks forgiveness from God  ---- which God are we talking about? Let us take the opening poster, it seemed clear enough that he was seeking forgiveness from the same God that Christians call God.

Now the point is this: when a person "not born-again" calls on the Christian God for forgiveness with an honest heart, is that person not by so doing acknowledging that God as God. And does one really think God will still cast such a person out?

Or rather perhaps we need other ways to look at the situation: at the least asking for forgiveness might be the beginning of the process of the person being born again; some would say that for the person to seek forgiveness from the Christian God in the first place he was probably already regenerated/born-again.

In the previous thread ttalks (I think it was) identified Joagbaje's problem: he does not really know what it means to be born again; he thinks that a person makes himself born again and that it is simply by "confessing" i.e. speaking out loud that Jesus is Lord. Well, a lot of false teachers do that but, when we apply the test of fruit, we have good reason to doubt that they are truly born again.

And to show why the question above is once again apt on this thread, this is what you posted earlier on this thread:

Joagbaje:
@poster,

Of course God forgives each time a Christian ask for forgiveness.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But you can leave beyond the level of falling and confessing. You didn't state if you're born again or not. If you're not born again, you don't have business asking for forgiveness because God will not hear it. Forgiveness is only for a born again person. But if you're born again already and you keep falling into sin. It can only be because you've not allow the word of God to richly dwell in you. You need to grow up spiritually by feeding voraciously on the word.

Psalms 119:11
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 

Matthew 22:29
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 1 Peter 2:2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

You need to join a bible teaching church fully. Most churches have a structure by which converts are raised to maturity. But if all these are in place already and you still have challenges in the flesh. Let us know. There is something else to deal with. This goes beyond just confession,God doesn't really want you to keep falling and confessing.

So Liardon and Haggard can keep doing it as long as they ask for forgiveness everytime ------ or having risen to become pastors, "ministers", "Men of God", they did not allow "the word to dwell richly in them"?

^^^ On that thread earlier in the year you praised Roberts Liardon who we then pointed out was a homosexual and I will repose a question we posed to you then.

Roberts Liardon and the other confessed homosexual Ted haggard are "born again" by your definition, if they do not "repent" (not just ask for forgiveness), will they "go to heaven" ----- based on what I believe is your understanding of the Bible on homosexuality?

InesQor:
2 Cor 7:10 is apt. Never 'saw' that till now!

There are lots of things in the Bible that are more significant than we often realise.

On this issue of the forgiveness/repentance of the "born again" versus "non-born-again", could we ask who corresponds to whom as between the Pharisee and the tax-collector in the passage below?

Luke 18

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his bosom and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

@newmi

I see what you are trying to say but how  do you relate the following to the view you expressed on repentance?

Rev 2:5 (to the church of Ephesus)

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 (to church in Pergamos) 

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Now there is also this passage in Corinthians which is worth careful thinking about: (a) it is a case of repentance by Christians and (b) careful thinking about the second part will show the error of saying "non-Christians" cannot ask for forgiveness; a person asks for forgiveness when s/he realises that s/he is wrong and the person is sorry; that sorrow can indeed lead them to repentance; for that reason you people really should be encouraging non-Christians to ask for forgiveness!

2 Cor 7:9,10 

Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

;d ;d ;d

Graphic example from NIV rendering of same III John 2

Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.

inedi:
Prosperity really its an all round experience, it is often erronously figured from the perspective of money which even scripturally is wrong. The book of 3 John vs 2 "Beloved, l wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth" .
The scripture above successfully reveals to us the intent of God as regards to the properity of His children and the nature of this prosperity-the properity of the soul is in every way a priority as the prosperity of the body.
Health is regarded as a form of prosperity and the shows us how that God is very much interested in our prosperity in that regard.

Nah, the scripture is just a greeting and well wishes from John to Gaius; it is only being misused by the prosperity "gospel" adherents.

^^^ That is his way --- the poisonous way! We pointed out David and Psalm 51 to him in the past but of course he will not desist from spreading poison. A couple more examples of people "not born again" whose sins were forgiven.

Luke 7

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Matthew 9:2

Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

Good morning sis eyzhvntsn

Struggling for time (doing other things on the side) so briefly the position I align with is: (a) to fully realise salvation while still alive on earth is to live dwell in the kingdom of God by following in the things that Jesus taught and living in the power that He gave; (b) but the full kingdom of God is in the future, a destination, the dwelling in glory of those whom the Lord made and accepts as righteous.

eyzhvntsn:
Question:

In places like John 3, Mark 4, Jesus referred to the 'kingdom of God' while in places like Matt 13, 20 there is reference to the 'kingdom of heaven'.

Is there a difference between the two or are they one and the same?

This issue actually came up earlier this year in a heated debate with Joagbaje ---- part of the places where he infuriated a number of us.

Yes, as was pointed out then, it is generally understood that the "kingdom of heaven" is used interchangeably with the "kingdom of God" and that Matthew opted for "heaven" in most places because of Jewish reverence for the name of God. An indication of 'interchangeability' is given with these:

Matthew 8:11 [Quote]And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.[/quote]Luke 13:28[Quote]. . . ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God . . .[/quote]An important point that we might pursue at some point is what we might call the "duality" of the "kingdom of God"; on the one hand it is with us now and on the other hand its fulness is in glory ---- Revelation 12:10

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ . . .

@Image123

Where they are going with Psalm 91 is some convoluted false argument that the crucifixion/burial/resurrection of Jesus could not have taken place because that would mean His feet would have touched stone whereas the psalm says "lest you dash your foot against a stone".

The argument is so nonsensical it is not worth spending much time on.

^^ And if I don't answer it what are you going to do?

Don't go and answer the various things that aletheia and SeyiBrown have been throwing at you people all over the place making you look ignorant of your own faith and its book.

^^^ In the Old Testament, indeed "man of God" was often used as a technical term and indeed often referring to particular types of "position holders". This is what many still arrogate to themselves today --- just like in some churches e.g. C& S, you have some people calling themselves "Levites".

It is true that even in the Christian era, particular people may be called to specific roles; nevertheless, each Christian is now a spokesperson for God, each is a priest and each is anointed and thus each is 'a man/woman of God'.

I will leave further discussion of the word "minister", which I had actually since been hoping to trigger, till later.

Sweetnecta:
i dont eat everything. i dont blame even those who eat pork. whatever make them happy.

about your invitation, i am not interested because it is not real. but i see that you avoided Psalm 91.

Oh, I did not avoid Psalm 91; I just had a more important point for that post. If and when I feel like it, I might come back to Psalm 91. In the meantime think more about the possibility of honouring in the future that invitation to eat of the Bread of life and drink of the Water of life.

I thought it was puq you didn't eat. Anyway sha I will like to invite you to eat of the Bread of life and drink from the Fountain that never dries, the Water of life. 

^^^ We are doing just fine, just fine, especially when we sing praises to the Lamb that was slain.

^^^ A lyric and music (classical) version of the song Worthy is the Lamb posted earlier by Olaadegbu.

Enjoy, brethren! 

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2fSxOeij4?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed>[/flash]

ogajim:
It is hard to explain this to most of our Christian brethren these days that being a Christian doesn't mean you will be WEALTHY because they've been given this "SUCCESS" cool aid to drink far too many times.

I have to believe that most of the so called "MOGs" (the ones we tend to hear the most from usually) are actually working for the "other side", they are playing "away games" on the home turf.

That is the reason Jesus Christ admonished his believers to be "wise as Serpents and gentle as Doves" . . .

This, especially the bolded, is what many of us are concerned and warning about!

Joagbaje:
A spiritual vagabond is a man who doesn't have a church. I never called any minister a vagabond.

Several times, you called Christians "spiritual vagabonds"; Christians are ministers; therefore you called ministers "spiritual vagabonds"!

cogicero:
this thread is the best i have ever seen here then joabagaje had to come and spoil it

Indeed, it is a pity.

Joagbaje:
@enigma.
. . .   To do verbal attacks against ministers. Where is it in your bible?

The same place where you find your authorisation to call 'ministers' "spiritual vagabonds".  

maddock:
@ Enigma
By reposting the chaps testimony what have you succeded in saying that has not being said before. Its still one negative as compared to million positive, so keep trying hard to bring more negatives,kapish.

What I have succeeded in saying is that while Oyakhilome may be able to fool a million mumus  er victims, there will always be the one or two who will see the light, get smart and escape the corruption. 

Further to Petres_007's post earlier on, I saw the below on a thread in the Politics section https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-567882.0.html#msg7331573

vorosmartm:
[b]
Its a pity that gradually this man's ministry has turned into a ground for milking nigerians dry.
I've been a member for years but stopped after i came back from youth service.
It was becoming obvious that the money was more important.
You need to be a member for you to know what the congregation is going through especially cell leaders,
pcf presidents and departmental leaders. Attend their weekly leaders meeting and be stunned at what you hear and see.
I belong to a cell for job seekers and we were given a thanksgiving target of N200k, Offer 7 just passed.
where do they expect us to get such from? I got employed immediately after service,
for that reason I was asked to bring N50k of the sum.
Is this still a church or something else, we no longer have free access to the word of God from our MOG cos they are sold.
When I joined years back I was really impressed at the level of organisation but now I'm just, God help us, by the way. I left!
God's word cannot be monopolised and manipulated. It has a life of its own [/b]

@ vorosmartm

I'm going to copy your post to a thread in the religion section; hope you don't mind, thanks.

Edit: the post is here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-563807.160.html#msg7332725