₦airaland Forum

nuclearboy:
BTW, I like your new style. You carefully choose topics now and avoid "money", "prosperity" or topics that "need" to be interpreted. Are you afraid your "gods" shallowness is so easily exposed and so want to keep issues to clear cut matters?

Fear is truly a weapon  

The topics that he posts are still subtle forms of the prosperity gospel. It is true that we can view some of them positively as "encouragement"; it is also true that there is some biblical truth to parts of some of them. However, the tactics of the prosperity preachers is to say things that will draw the customer in: "your dreams will always mean good even if they are scary" (whereas in truth some dreams could be warnings or even preparations for things to come); the tactic is to say nice, soothing and "encouraging" things. That is all well and good --- except it needs to be balanced with biblical truths and reality --- and especially that the Christian journey is a tough and challenging journey. That Jesus Christ has assured of the ending does not diminish the difficulties on the road ---- whereas, ultimately, the subtle message of the topics being posted is to diminish the reality of the difficulties of the journey in order to help sustain the sweet falsehood of the prosperity "gospel".

Check all the topics in recent times - possibly even since he started posting them - they are all basically "feel good" messages. Yes, "feel good" is part of Christianity (especially 'joy') but not "feel good" with the same agenda as the prosperity "gospel".

aletheia:
. . .  P.S. Please Google "Dr. Marten Woudstra"

Hi again bro

I am familiar with the issue; but remember that the NIV  defenders have pointed out (at least alleged) similar about King James.

Trust things are going well over "there" where you are currently. 

@ aletheia and Nuclearboy

Let me state upfront that I share you brethren's concern about adulterations of the Bible ---- especially deliberate adulterations by people with an agenda. However, I will say upfront also that I still remain sympathetic to the NIV and will not place it in the same category as certain "study" or "devotional" Bibles and various other poor versions or translations.

With regard to the point about 60000 odd words missing from the NIV, I think serious thought should be given to the question (and evidence for) whether these words are/were likely to have been in the autographs or are/were likely to have been additions to the autographs e.g. scribal margin notes, clarifications and emendations.

For example, I am a big defender of the Johannine Comma as you would see on the thread "Was the Trinity Invented at a Council Meeting"; however, at the same time, I will not hold my hand to my heart and tell you that the Comma was definitely in the autograph.

Again. like you I am very wary of many Bible versions/translations; in fact some will be surprised that I am very careful with the use of the Amplified; but I suggest that you my brethren look into the case of the NIV carefully again -  though having said that I have not yet seen the latest (2010?) NIV.


@ Nuke

I think Joagbaje has been well exposed in this thread, hence his cowardly initial running away and current wriggling to avoid the critical issues. Better leave him to his folly and pray to God that one day he will be delivered from his slavery to his belly which has turned him into a deceiver and which is making him so cowardly to face biblical truths ---- prefering instead to choose the Rhapsody of erRoRs and WoF doctrine above the Bible.

A propos the discussion on the NIV earlier in this thread, here an interesting read: http://www.anointedlinks.com/why_niv.html

ETA and this http://www.bible-researcher.com/kutilek1.html

yommyuk:
You would have noticed that I have put a strike on "Mosaic law".

Why are you putting a strike through "Mosaic law" when that was what you were relying on in the first place? After all you are the one who first wrote:

yommyuk:
. . . If believers choose to tithe by following the Mosaic Law with a clean heart, don't u think that God will accept it.

Now you jump to the Holy Spirit: yes, the the Holy Spirit can indeed lead a person to do things "foolish" in the eyes of the world but do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict the teachings of Christ? When Jesus Christ said it is no longer "an eye for an eye", do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict that? When He said He had fulfilled the Mosaic law, do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict that? When the Bible says the Levitical priesthood and the law based on it including tithing had been done away with, do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict that.

Better quit the amulumala and stick to the advice of the posters who told you that New Testament requirement is giving which includes especially giving to the poor and needy and the latter which, fortunately, you agree with. What you do not realise is that by describing what is really giving as "tithing" you are aligning yourself with the false teachers who say "tithes" should not be given to widows (or the poor and needy) but to so-called "pastors/ministers"  who are really thieves or false teachers or at best people in error.

PS remember also that we have said repeatedly that we do not have problems with a person choosing, preferably knowledgeably, to "tithe"; we insist adamantly that "tithing" is NOT and should not be taught as Christian doctrine.

By the way, what do you say about a person choosing any of the things below (apart from tithing) listed in my earlier post ------ based on following Mosaic law with a good heart?

A person can choose to tithe according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to be circumcised according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to make burnt offerings according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to divorce according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to follow 'an eye for an eye' according to Mosaic law etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam

Oh, and what about stoning adulterers or working on the sabbath or wearing clothing made of mixed materials etc etc etc still ad infinitum ad nauseam

I know all the arguments that are used to support "tithing" and have well refuted them over the years. If you do not know the arguments against the teaching of tithing as a Christian obligation, then your research is incomplete. You can start the furthering of your research by doing a search of the threads on tithing on this forum, you will see the arguments as have been well laid out by me and others for several years. I am not inclined to go over them again.

^^^You can continue to pay for the poison in whatever language and any other similar foolishness (strictly, folly) that takes your fancy; the fact is that the Rhapsody of erRoRs in whatever language is full of poison dangerous to any person and especially to a Christian.

And by the way, you make me laugh with your reference to my competence in the English language . . .  what with the poor basic English comprehension and staggering intellectual and biblical ignorance that you and the rest of your crew display here everyday!

A person can choose to tithe according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to be circumcised according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to make burnt offerings according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to divorce according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to follow 'an eye for an eye' according to Mosaic law etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam

Just DO NOT TEACH IT as Christian doctrine! Such teaching will always be met with opposition by knowledgeable Christians.

Perhaps the fewer people that are able to read or access the Rhapsody of erRoRs (as we call it here) the better anyway, since it contains much that is poisonous.

^^^ Well, the apostle Paul praised God despite his own sickness and that of his assistants.

Also read up on a lady called Joni Eareckson Tada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Eareckson_Tada

http://www.joniandfriends.org/

Further look up this chap called Brian Gault http://www.christianlightradio.com/BrianGault.html

^^^The significance of the quote above and especially the highlighted should not be underestimated. I keep saying that WoF doctrine and the prosperity "gospel" teach people to do the very opposite of what Jesus said they should do.

Jesus said lay treasures in heaven, seek the kingdom of God, do not lay treasures on earth, do not set your mind on earthly things. WoF doctrine and the prosperity gospel pay lip service to following Jesus: their own "seek the kingdom of God" is simply to say the "sinners' prayer" and that according to them means the person is "born again"; after that the person should start seeking earthly treasures (opposite of Jesus' teaching) by seeking "prosperity"; meanwhile the person is being made a mugu because the fraudsters then tell him/her that to get this "prosperity" the person must pay "tithes", first fruits, honour the "pastor" with his/her substance e.g. the daft Offer 7 of Chris Embassy etc etc.

Joagbaje:
Tithes are to be given to God and not to widows, the ministers of God prays over them Because of the anointing in their office. Abraham didn't give his tithe to widows, he gave it to a minister. And the minister by the anointing blessed him

The above is the message of thieves and robbers who do not have the fear of God in them, and who are very ready to contradict the words of God and the words of Christ; and why would a person so wantonly go against the teachings of Christ unless the person is being led by the spirit of anti-Christ?

Joagbaje:
Sirjohn,
You're still making thesame mistake. You don't judge the word of God by a mans experience. Even if Jesus dies of leukaemia ! It should not destroy our faith in the word.you take the word for what it says. . So long as you judge by peoples lifestyles you'll keep mskingn thesame mistakes.

This fellow is worse than pathetic; extremely contemptible!

Dear yommy

I'm afraid that tithing has indeed been abolished and is not mandatory/obligatory for a Christian. However, it is perfectly fine if an individual chooses to "tithe" ---- particularly if s/he knows it is not compulsory.

NB There are people who teach/preach "tithing" in honest error usually simply preaching it as obligation --- but not as a necessary guarantee of prosperity. This is true of some older type/traditional churches in Nigeria (I was in one such yesterday).

There are frauds who know that tithing is not a Christian obligation or who don't even care but simply use the preaching of "tithing" as a means of fleecing the flock so as for themselves to get rich. Such people are beneath contempt.

Jesus said in Matthew 23;23
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices . . ."

The above is exactly what tithe preachers do to

You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former

Anyone who preaches a "Christ" that had to be made alive in his spirit (because he was thitherto dead in spirit) is preaching a fake Christ

Anyone who preaches a Christ that had to be "quickened in his spirit" (because he was thitherto dead in spirit) is preaching a fake Christ.

Anyone who preaches a Christ that was/had to be born again (because he was dead in spirit) is preaching a fake Christ.

It is the spirit of antiChrist that makes a person preach such nonsense!

^^^ Are you people sure that Joagbaje and crew/family are not the ones responsible and who interceded for the salvation of Jesus himself?

In any event Joagbaje has said it is not God that wins souls himself; I guess what God cannot do, only Joagbaje and crew/family can do.


2 Pet

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

nuella2:
No siddon for house, go there so we go know who dey lie since. I dont think they are showing it live, which tv station you dey watch am?

You think I now have time to watch Oyaks on TV? I meant I would watch something sensible on TV ---- even Nigerian Idol would be better.  

^^^ We fit go show for television oh! 

Nah, nah nah, make I siddon house kuku dey look de television instead. 

Maybe I should hook up with Kunle so we go together since I'm not very far away either; hmmm, on the other hand I can think of a million better things I'd rather be doing.

Deep Sight:
y

PLASOTLE:
That is false. It is not only in Nigeria that such is to be heard. If i recall correctly the same thing was supposedly heard in Israel some 2011 years ago. My memoray fails me, but I think the young woman ("alma" was a lady called Mary.

THEN THE ENTIRE CHRISTIAN WORLD IS DUMB, NO?

Very very cheap to quickly alter the first quote which showed very clearly that Deep Sight = PLASOTLE. The entire thread was based on deception ------ whatever is the truth of the story.

Ayoobscom:
since the congregation does not pay a fixed tithe amount,how will tax payable be determined apparantly no one has an idea their gross income,

This is very interesting. In a proper setting, the "church" will have a governing board; the governing board will set the monthly or annual salary (or income) of the "pastor". On this monthly/annual salary/income, the "pastor" should then pay tax --- as the amount is a fixed or set amount, calculating the amount of tax due will not be difficult. The problem we have is as identified by one poster earlier; our modern "pastors" (and their family in many cases) treat all church funds/incomes etc as personal or family assets for all practical purposes e.g. they alone use the "ministry"'s jet etc but for government and tax purposes they will claim that these assets belong to the "ministry" and therefore exempt from tax.

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=14267.msg7648945#msg7648945 date=1296595875]. . .

And err. . . come o. . . why is it that anytime these fellows (like Joeagbaje & donnie) seem backed into a corner they just do the rentaghost thingy enh? This is why I keep saying it isn't only the demigods (oyaks & co.) who truly know what they're doing. If peeps like Joeagbaje & donnie really were sincere, they wouldn't run off when their views are exposed this way.[/quote]This bit really gets me; I mean it makes me so so sad that I have to confront the fact that Joagbaje now seems evidently to be a deceiver ---- perhaps because of the comforts and lucre he is enjoying as a Christ Embassy "pastor"; in the beginning I thought he was just misguided; now I think he is in fact guided by his belly.

Meanwhile, do people notice that Joagbaje has so far not denied the implications of his claim that Jesus was born again as I set out earlier. Also, do people notice that neither he nor the rest of his supporters has disowned the heresies of Copeland etc that Jesus was tortured by satan and demons ---- which is associated with/part of the "Jesus died spiritually" argument made by Joagbaje & co?

In addition to the very good posts by Nuke and Petres, is the story below also literally true? Afterall there was no use of "likened to", "is like" etc etc.

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

  13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

  17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

  “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

  21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

  22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

  25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

  28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

  31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

No can do.

^^^ Naah, there is nothing to "cop on". I actually know where you are going but I am pushing you to be explicit so there is no issue of presupposition.

Come out with it and get on with it.

^^^ As with my previous answer ----- if you have an explanation of the difference between Jesus and Christ, do provide it; same with your myrrh and frankincense point.

I mean this thing is just ridiculous.

OK so Jesus was born like any other man ---- of a man's seed?

Why was he born of a virgin?

So, even though He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, he was still dead in his spirit until he became "born again"?

So even when/after the Holy Spirit descended om Him in bodily form at His baptism, he was still dead in His spirit --- until He became "born again"?

So even at the transfiguration, He was still dead in His spirit?

So the Jesus who went on the cross was a man "dead in His spirit"?

So the Spirit that he committed into the hands of God was a dead spirit?

^^^ Thanks for "holding my hand" etc etc but I dont think I need it. With regard to the two passages that you quote, do provide your own interpretation if you wish. I don't see how either suggests that Jesus was born again or needed to be born again; or even that he was dead in his spirit for all of his 33 years until he became "born again". (Edited)

Meanwhile, as I can't resist this any longer, let us examine the implication of the 'Jesus was born again' argument made on this thread.

1. Jesus was a born again man

Joagbaje:
Jesus was the first man to be born again . He is the first fruit among many brethren. No man had the grace of born again until his resurrection.

Joagbaje:
They were not born again until Jesus rose from the dead. He was the first to be born again.

2. And this is what the same poster says it means to be "born again"

Joagbaje:
To be born again is thesame as receiving eternal life of God in our spirit . This eternal life is a life we recieve instantly we got born again.

Joagbaje:
Being born again is to have a new nature and life in the human spirit. From the  time of Adam man had become dead in his spirit.

3. Therefore, according to this sacrilegious reasoning:

Since Jesus was a born again man it means

a. Jesus was dead in his spirit until he became born again

b. Jesus had a new nature and life in the human spirit when/after he became born again

c. Jesus only received eternal life after he was born again; this particular Jesus is not a "proper" eternal Jesus.

Very very clever thinking indeed ---- NOT!