₦airaland Forum

By the way, try this on the Luke 23:43

http://bible.cc/luke/23-43.htm

The "move the comma" trick does not wash (some American WoF guy tried it with me several years ago) and is usually only to be found in WoF circles; even the NIV does not do it. let the WoF chaps find a worthwhile Bible translation/version that does it. Also, how many serious scholars of the original Bible languages adhere to the trick?

The apostle Paul had their measure to a tee.

1 Timothy 6

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Since Jesus was just a born again man . . .

And since Copeland is also a born again man

Therefore Copeland could have died to save sinners/mankind

“The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, “Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.” He said, “Think this way — a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.” And I threw my Bible down… like that. I said, “What?” He said, “A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.” He said, “You are the very image, the very copy of that one.” I said, “Goodness, gracious sakes alive!” And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, “Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?” He said, “Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a reborn man too.”

Kenneth Copeland (Substitution and Identification, 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2)

According to Kenneth Copeland

“He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived … Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him … [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived … In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus … [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life … He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles … Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell … Jesus … was raised up a born-again man … The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited … !”

(“The Price of it All,” Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4).

So, Jesus was just "a born again man".

I want to pursue the "Jesus was born again" and "Jesus died spiritually" heresies a bit more. Here is a summary of the teaching: I am interested to see what people/Christians think of it.

From  http://www.inplainsite.org/html/jesus_reborn_in_hell.html

In summary (with a few variations), the “born again Jesus” gospel teaches that Jesus died two deaths, one physically upon the cross and the other spiritually in hell. He literally became sin on the cross, taking on the very nature of Satan, thereby being stripped of His Deity. He was ushered into hell where He was tortured for three days and nights by Satan and his demons, was reborn or “born again” in hell, reclaiming His Deity and finally rising bodily from the dead. Our redemption was not secured on the cross, but in hell. In fact, many Faith teachers claim that Christ's torture by all the demons of hell was a "ransom" God paid to Satan so that He could get back into a universe from which He had been banished.

nuclearboy:
. . . .

What truly amazes me is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who had problems with Francis Chan allowing the Holy Spirit pre-eminence by stepping to the side to take focus off himself, comes from CEC PLC: - they prefer the Spirit of God to go sit down outside somewhere else

And some of them are connected or even related; in fact I strongly suspect that the "pastor" and mabell are a husband and wife "pastoring" team --- even though they still try to make the pretence of separateness despite having been rumbled when one of them posted under their two different IDs. There is also reasonable suspicion of the use of multiple IDs.

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament (extracted from an earlier thread)

Gen 41:38

And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Exodus 31

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:

3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Deuteronomy 34

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers 27:18

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him

Isaiah 63 (speaking of Moses)

11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

14As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

Joagbaje defends a clear thief like "Dr" Leroy 'money cometh' Thompson and his defrauding of the flock for private jet. He says as Thompson is a "pastor" Christians should not criticize anything he does but only pray for him.

Reasonable people would say that there is more evidence that Francis Chan is a man of God than there is evidence that Thompson is even a Christian at all, let alone a man of God and let alone a 'pastor' in the biblical sense. Whereas Christians will appreciate Chan's decision, it is not surprising that the prosprity "gospel" people (prosperitians) would rather stand by a clear obvious common thief.

Abraham believed (had faith in) God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Because Abraham believed God, he lived according to God's instructions. It is important also to note that God called Abraham.

OK spring forward to the New Testament: Christians claim imputed righteousness through Christ. How? By faith (i.e. believing) in Christ and living according to His instructions (bringing forth fruit).

This is the parallel that Paul referred to in Romans 4.

The relevance to this topic is this: at the point that Abraham started to believe in God and to live according to His instructions, we can confirm with certainty that he was born again. He could even have been born again earlier i.e. at the time that God not only called him but also the time that God empowered him to hear and heed the call.

The same is true of the New Testament believer: at the time that he genuinely believes in Christ/God and starts to live according to his instructions, we can confirm with some confidence that he is born again; he could indeed have been born again earlier at the time that God's Spirit woke his spirit from its slumber and empowered him to hear and heed God's call.

The confusion for some is New Testament language that a person in Christ is a new creation; this is a biblical truth. However, the WoF people stretch and twist this beyond its intent and remit! Of course, a person whose heart turns from sin and towards God and who lives according to God's power and spirit is a new person; a changed person, a new creation.

Abraham was a new creation once he turned his back on pagan gods and believed and lived according to the wishes of the One Majestic Eternal God Almighty (OMEGA); Peter, John, James, Paul etc were new creations once they believed in Christ/God and lived according to His wishes/instructions.

Today, a Christian is a new creation once he believes in Christ and lives according to His instructions ---- turning his back to old sinful ways or at least the old sinful mindset.

It is the stretching of "recreation" into unnecessary gnosticism that leads the WoF people to think too much of themselves and too little of people far far superior to themselves --- like Abel, like Abraham etc etc

One necessary point which has been made by aletheia, Inesqor, Olaadegbu, Image123, nuclearboy, myself etc etc but which seems to keep falling on deaf WoF ears: whether Old Testament, whether New Testament all are redeemed by Jesus' blood; all are reconciled to God by Christ; all achieve righteousness by one means ----- the righteousness of Christ. It is nonsensical to say that "the standard of righteousness was different" from Old Testament to New Testament. It is a misunderstanding of the Gospel and of the Bible.

One final point: it is the same Holy Spirit that made both Old Testament saints and "Christians" born again. The Holy Spirit was certainly at work in Old Testament days and was indeed regenerating and making people "born again". The difference today is that since Pentecost, the Holy Spirit has been poured out as to always indwell believers according to the promise of Christ/God to send another comforter (paraclete).

nuclearboy:
^^^ Parfait & Apt description!

For the first time, non-believers see a good example & "gods" dey touch THIS anointed

This is an important point. A number of non-Christians here have been quite keen to support Joagbaje's stances against those of Christians who oppose him. it seems that they are more comfortable with the caricature of Christianity presented by the likes of Joagbaje because it makes it easy for them to defend/justify their non-acceptance of Christianity.

It is thus very gratifying to see non-Christians on this thread pointing out the nonsense in Joagbaje's position on this issue.

"HE must increase and I must decrease."

OLAADEGBU:
I took this challenge to google up what the WoF movement teach about this "Jesus died spiritually" doctrine and I was shocked at what came up.  Is it true that they believe that Jesus took upon the nature of satan and was tormented in hellfire before God the Father had to come and rescue Him and then recreate His spirit?  Is that why they call Him the first person to be born again?  God have mercy. 

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

My brother, it is a very serious matter; and these are the kind of people we are dealing with; the kind of people that Oyakhilome and Joagbaje are parotting. Videos of Copeland etc saying these things used to be available on Youtube until the WoF ministries m-industries started pulling them on pretext of copyright; some should still be available somewhere on the Net.

Check out video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6-38wcaZto

i know that "Dr" Leroy Thompson is a "pastor" but does anyone doubt that he is alo a disgusting thief?

Let us see what the "touch not my anointed" MOG defenders have to say about this!

Meanwhile anyone who wants to see how far apart from Christianity is the teaching of "Dr" Leroy Thompson should google "money cometh" and in particular search for the related videos.

Joagbaje:
Jesus died 2 deaths, he died spiritually , and he died physically. If he hadn't died spiritually , the physical death would not have been possible,

Just for the records: the "Jesus died spiritully" statement is another heresy of the WoF people. Anyone interested should google 'Jesus died spiritually' or 'Jesus died spirtually heresy' and see how far some of the WoF people go with it! For example, some of them say that Jesus was tortured in hell by satan and demons as part of Him dying "spiritually".

Here is a very recent post by an Oyakhilome follower:

Joagbaje:
They were not born again until Jesus rose from the dead. He was the first to be born again.

Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ,[ who is] the faithful witness,[ and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Now is saying Jesus was born again not saying Jesus was a sinner who thus needed to be born again? And does that not, if subtly, deny the divinity of Jesus Christ?

In a recent thread I said that these people deny the divinity of Christ - sometimes subtly; well, the post quoted above is an example.

Joagbaje:
They were not born again until Jesus rose from the dead. He was the first to be born again.

Revelation 1:5
5 And from Jesus Christ,[ who is] the faithful witness,[ and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 

When will this fellow stop spreading poison for God's sake.

He now says (as he has hinted previously) that Jesus was "born again"; that means Jesus was a sinner who needed to be "saved"; who needed to be redeemed, who needed to be born again.

The Redeemer Himself needing to be redeemed? The One who borns people again, Himself needing to be born again

First begotten from the dead simply means first to be resurrected (and not in the way of Lazarus); first to conquer death and thereby giving others to follow the power also to conquer death through resurrection.

I mean and they call this fellow "pastor"!

First fruits = January-salary thiefing/stealing.

QED
Hallelujah

Modern "first fruits" teaching = January-salary thiefing/stealing.

QED

@Image23

First regarding the "overcomer": who is the 'overcomer'?

1 John 5:4

“Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world.”

You see why it is important to understand being "born again" contrary to what is popularly peddled. Remember it is God Himself that makes a person born again, "not of the will of man but of God" as stated in John chapter 1. If a person is born again, s/he is an overcomer or s/he will overcome because the God who made the person born again will uphold the person to the end.

Back to the book of life: just as some people's names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, so also some people's names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Revelations 17:8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Strictly speaking, we are not told that names are written/not written in the Book of Life at any time other than before the foundation of the world though some argue that some passages imply this possibility.

Now, the expression Book of Life is only used in the New Testament if I remember correctly (I will double-check this at some point; the nature of my current Internet connection discourages me from some 'heavy' stuff). Other expressions include "Book of the Living". The passage in Exodus that you mentioned refers to "the Book". In fairness, many see this as also referring to the "Book of Life". However, we should bear in mind that the Bible actually indicates that God has "book[b]S[/b].

Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:15 

If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you see? If the name was not found written! NOT if the name was blotted out ------------- of the Book of Life. Remember that the names were either written or not written before the foundation of the world.

I hope I have given you food for thought and will stop here for now.

One thing that many do not realise is that one of the principal/fundamental roots of much of what is wrong with "Pentecostal" Christianity today and its descent into the prosperity "gospel" morass, money, money money, "money cometh" nonsense is actually the lie/scam of the tithe. The day a person is able to make the connection, the day s/he will be better able to contextualise the greed and lust for money that pervades the prosperity "gospel". Once you teach "tithing" as "insurance", "God's prosperity covenant", "God's scheme for blessing" and such like nonsense, it is a very easy step to follow with the January-Salary-thieving scam known as "first fruits", and other lies assuring the greed-motivated sheeple of "blessings" and "prosperity". Then you get things like "money cometh" (please google the phrase "money cometh" and check youtube videos) and other insanities

In some Nigerian non-Pentecostal or non "prosperity" churches where tithing is preached, there is still obviously the risk of descent to the prosperity "gospel" morass but less so because of differences from the "Pentecostal"/Prosperity "gospel" churches in the way they go about requesting tithing. They tend to stick more to the line that it is a duty and emphasise less on "tithing" being the guarantee of "prosperity". They are still wrong too of course to teach "tithing" as a Christian obligation.

^^^ I very much knew you would say that. Question: can anyone overcome by himself?

@Image123

I will get back to you later on the Moses/Exodus passage. In my view, once God has written a saint's name in the Book of Life, that name does not get deleted. Please remember God's promises to them e.g. give them a new name, write God's name on their heart, give them a white stone etc. Also, remember the glorious Romans 8.

Back to the apostles, how about John 2:11?

What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

baconline:
Beware that your pastor might be an enemy of the cross!!!!!!He will drag u on the express to hell.By their fruits,

A most important warning! And some of the most "popular" or well known "pastors" and "MOGs" are the ones to be most wary of!

I have a theory that the GO's annual prophesies started getting even more vague and inane after serious ridicule and criticisms one year on this very forum. I know I am making a big claim but trust me I have reason to believe that these things are not unconnected.

OLAADEGBU:
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. -- Luke 10:17-20

The fact that their names were written in heaven shows that they had the greatest miracle of everlasting salvation of their souls which is greater than the temporary and spectacular victory over demons and this was before Jesus' death and resurrection.

I think this is a very strong point. Considering subsequent posts I make the following points:

1. If any one has a scripture where God says He will delete names from the Book of Life, I will like to see it.
2. What God says is that He will not delete people's names from the Book of Life ---- i.e. assurance of salvation --- 'your name is in my book and will not be deleted from it'
3. Is God so fickle that today He will write a person's name in the Book of Life, tomorrow He will delete it, next tomorrow He will re-write it and the day after He will delete it again, rewrite it again etc etc ad infinitum?
4. Or is God one who knows His mind such that once He wrote a person's name in the Book of Life even before the foundation of the world He knew that that person's name would never be deleted from the Book?

Well no 4 is the God and the kind of God I believe in.

^^^ I have seen a lot of them but I still get amazed constantly at how daft some of them are; even illiterates do not have to be so poor in clear thinking! Very sad.

Bottom line is that a lot of our people who are supposedly educated and supposedly Christians have not got out of the "consult a babalawo mentality"; the only thing is that they have transferred the mentality into what they call "Christianity". Thus just like what the babalawo says must be followed, the same way what the "pastor" or "MOG" says must be followed because of course he is an "oracle".

Any intelligent and honest person who studies the Bible on "tithing" will easily discover that "tithing" cannot honestly and should not be taught as a Christian obligation. As others have pointed out and as we have said here for years, it is however fine if an individual chooses to practise "tithing" particularly if they know that it is not an obligation.

ogajim:
^^^ Zikky, you be Lawyer? You are killing pastor JoAgbaje under cross-examination so much he might just plead guilty to obtain a deal.


I don't see the same level of attacks against pastor Kumuyi and the Deeper Christian Life Ministry on NL, Village square, etc, If it quacks like a duck, it most certainly is a duck my dear sister.

It is impossible to agree with any other person (maybe even oneself ) about everything but Dr Kumuyi is one Naija "MOG" that I have some respect for.

Did Jesus Christ ever ask anybody for "first fruits"? Of course He did not because only THIEVES now ask for "first fruits".

Did Peter, James, John, Paul or any other apostle ask anybody for "first fruits"? Of course they did not because only THIEVES now ask for "first fruits".