₦airaland Forum

O! that the world might taste and see
The riches of His grace!
The arms of love that compass me
Would all mankind embrace (2ce)

Above is verse 4 of the hymn Jesus the Name High Over All


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VPBc7lXnOQ

God of Grace and God of Love is Calling!

And so back to part of one of the opening passages

Romans 5
8. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


But even more so:
1 John 4
10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Oh, and yes of course!
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.





End

And the Question of Rejection?

Of course a natural question arises of what then happens to those who refuse the gift of salvation? Not only that, what about those who simply did not understand? Not only that, what about those who really did not get an opportunity to hear?

In Genesis 18:25, Abraham asked God in a particular context: “Shall not the judge of the whole earth do right”? I personally certainly believe and trust the judge of the whole earth to do right. We also have further indications in the first five chapters (especially) of the book of Romans of the fairness and fair dealing that can be expected with regard to God’s judgment.

Ah, now a question that many people and perhaps non-believers especially are agitated by! The matter of “hell”! Will God burn people forever? Undeniably, there are many in Christianity who hold to this view. On the other hand, there are other viewpoints within what is ordinarily seen as orthodox (i.e. non-heretical) Christianity that hold a different view such as “eternal separation” instead of “burning forever”.

Let us assume that the “better” scenario is that of “eternal separation” or even simply “separation”. If a person believes in God and if a person believes in a future new world prepared by God, if a person has already felt and known or even conceived of the love of God even in the present world ---- separation from God alone can be seen as “torture” akin to “burning”. Thus even on earth at the moment, many Christians are often sad when they feel that for some reason, usually weakness, their communion with God is impaired.

Let us paint a picture: a person is deeply in love and deeply desires the company of the paramour; the person desires to be with the paramour all of the time if possible. However, the paramour says I will give you things for comfort - a house, a car etc etc and you will be comfortable but you just cannot have my presence and company/companionship, I will not give you that, I will not give you that particular bliss that you desire. Well, I suggest that someone truly and deeply in love will see that as torture.

{{ lol Or just consider the reactions of many people when they are banned from the forum --- even for a very short period like hours. Boy, see desperation sometimes! Or consider how desperate our local regular non-believer friends here are to remain part of the Religion forum (and claiming to be ‘non-religionist’, lol); when people suggest that they should have their own forum, they shout noooooo! Meanwhile even the Moslems who have their own section can’t keep away! Truly, there really must be something about those pesky Christians --- that makes even those who ‘hate’ them unable to stay away from them!}}

On a more serious note, thus in the event of continued existence after death, and even in the event that all there is is separation from God and no “burning for ever”, even the separation may be seen as a form of “hell”.

Truly, however, the Christian calling is not so much or at least not simply a calling so as to avoid “hell”. Truly, the Christian calling is a calling of love and to love ---- more than anything. A calling to recognise God; to recognise His goodness, to recognise His holiness, to recognise His love. Accordingly, to choose to love and serve Him.

The calling is to love God because He first loved us ---- then everything else about eternal destiny will fall into place.

TBC

Assurance

And oh how blessed is the person who accepts that invitation to sup with the Lord Jesus Christ! How blessed is the person who knows the truth, and accepts The Truth, and is thus set free! One of the most important realisation that a Christian could come to is in terms of what is sometimes technically called “assurance of salvation” which is a doctrine emphasised in some Christian traditions but, unfortunately, less so or not even at all in others. In simplistic terms the doctrine says: “You are not guilty, you are set free, go and enjoy your freedom, go and prepare for your future.”

Romans 8
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

When a Christian truly realises that his righteousness is simply the righteousness of Christ, a righteousness which cannot fail since, essentially, it is the righteousness of God ---- oh what peace! It is not for nothing that we are told of the peace of God which passes all understanding!

Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

When you know and know and know that your eternal destination is assured and secured, you are no longer in fear. When you truly know the God of love, you will better appreciate the biblical statement “perfect love drives out all fear”.

And look at the magnificence of this assurance!

Romans 8
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or unclothedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Quite often, the doctrine of assurance, especially when expressed in terms of the eternal security of the saints (‘once saved always saved’) stirs concern and controversy. Some would say that then means a Christian can keep on engaging in wilful sin. Big mistake! Misunderstanding!

Of course a Christian can fall into sin. Excuse me for a minute but I want to “borrow” (lol) something that I came across by accident only a few days ago; it is contained in a post made by my sister belabela. To non-Christian readers, please please please understand that this is not meant in derogatory fashion at all but simply using an observation from nature genuinely. She said: “…but to [C]hristians this is how you know you are still standing in the Lord. [T]he [C]hristian life can be likened to the life of a cat while that of the unsaved to that of a pig, sin may be likened to a mud. Is it possible for a cat to fall into a mud? The answer is YES! but when it falls into it, it wants to get out as soon as possible.... but for a pig it falls into a mud and enjoys it.” https://www.nairaland.com/1408143/pastor-biodun-fatoyinbo-coza-sex/29#17642278

You see, in the first place, a Christian is promised the gift of empowerment; the Holy Spirit will dwell in him, remind him and empower him to abstain from sin. The Christian himself is required to listen to the Holy Spirit, to be attentive and receptive, not to grieve the Spirit ---- to be continually filled with the Spirit. What causes us to fail and to fall into (hopefully only occasional) sin is that we do not submit enough or often enough let alone constantly to the Holy Spirit. Even at that, God remains gracious; even when we sin, we have an advocate in heaven; even when we sin, we can approach God for forgiveness ----- and He is always gracious to forgive us!

Interestingly, what emerges is God the Father reconciling man to Himself through God the Son and empowering man through God the Holy Spirit. God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity! Amen.

TBC

The Only Hope

If with even our best efforts we cannot meet the standard of righteousness in light of God’s holiness, then what can we do? Then what is our hope? There is a fantastic sermon by the late preacher Martin Lloyd Jones titled “The Only Hope” (should still be available to purchase online or even maybe free) in which this very important point is made. Well, the only hope at the end of the day is God’s mercy and ------ God’s grace!

Here is one way this mercy and grace is set out clearly for us:

Ephesians 2
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Thus, instead of exacting us to fulfil the righteousness that will be satisfactory in light of God’s holiness, God gives us the gift of righteousness completely free. Our only requirement is to accept the gift!

How is this gift manifest then? God Himself took the steps to satisfy the requirement of righteousness by Himself visiting man in the unique, mysterious (yes some may not like the word), gracious incarnation. In Jesus Christ God gave us the gift of righteousness. In Jesus Christ, God Himself came to dwell with man and as unique “man” to fulfil the requirement of righteousness on behalf of man. Having fulfilled the requirement of righteousness to then give righteousness to man --- as a gift!

The incarnation is extremely difficult to come to terms with; even for a Christian, even for a Trinitarian Christian! How can God, Almighty God, come down so low and exist as man, and dwell as man?

The Bible says that with God all things are possible. First thing is that we need a sound understanding of the person and nature of Jesus Christ. We must not make the mistake of seeing or thinking of Jesus Christ only in terms of Jesus the physical man. We must do our best to understand as far as possible (we cannot really understand it fully, it is truly a ‘mystery’!) that the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the eternal Word of God that existed with God “in the beginning”.

In the incarnation, God in His essence unites with physical man. God in His essence descends to earth and dwells in man. In the unique God-man Jesus Christ, God Himself took upon Himself the fulfilment of the requirement of righteousness. Thereafter, the gift of righteousness is given to man.

Why has God chosen to do things this way? I cannot claim to know fully! However, God has given us freewill (even though some who misunderstand deny this) and has not created us zombies. This gives us a chance even despite our weakness to come to an understanding of our limitations --- hence the question again: ‘are you really “good”’? In the way that God has set the freewill given to us even against the background of His divine purposes, we have a chance to properly look inwards, to properly examine ourselves in and out and ask: ‘am I really “good“’?

Then of our own volition or ‘freewill’ to choose to recognise our limitations; to humbly acknowledge our inadequacy before God; to call upon God to have mercy upon us, to give us His grace.

But God has already done it! He has already extended His hand of mercy to us! He is even now extending His grace to us! Only thing for us to do is to accept it!

He says in Revelation 3
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

Being “Good” and God’s Holiness

In the simplest of terms, to be “holy” means to be “set apart” (though it is naturally a far more complex topic). Although in some quite important respects Christians are called “holy” and given a “share” of holiness, in the truest sense, only God is really “holy”.

God is “holy” because in His nature and essence He is completely set apart from and far far far far far far higher than and above humans and any other creature. To believe in the existence of God is to believe in something or Someone even vaster than the universe. And imagine how vast the universe is! When on the ground at the seaside a ship on the sea looks large, but get on an aircraft and look at that same ship from the air and it looks ever so tiny in the water. Now continue to scale like that and imagine the vastness of the earth. But then the earth itself becomes small when placed against the background of galaxies and all that! Then scale all the way to the whole universe! And yet I say God is even vaster than all of that! {Aside: the more assiduous may benefit from researching the etymology of the word ‘hierarchy’ , especially ‘hiera’}

In God’s holiness is “good” or “goodness” higher and above anything that humans can conceive. Human beings sometimes say or the more humble ask why is there pain, why is there suffering, why are things set up the way they are? I can see why a non-believer would say that as things are the way they are with all the pain and suffering on earth, that must mean there is no God. In the first place on the other hand, an honest appraiser would consider how much of this is man-made and due to the choices that mankind makes. Secondly, even if indeed we say some of the hardship is because of the way God (‘if He exists’) set things up, is it not reasonable to consider that if such a God exists, and is as vast as He must be to be bigger than the universe which is only His creation, He may have a way of seeing things which is different and even higher than what we see or think?

In the Christian perception, God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. In the Christian perception God had His own design even before “the foundation of the world”. In the Christian perception, a part of God’s goodness is revealed in another aspect of God’s nature ---- love. The act of creation is an act of love! The recognition of the eventual “Fall” (attributable to even granting mankind freewill) and the making of a contingency for it and for redemption and reconciliation is an act of love. The nature of the contingency is an act of love because God took it upon Himself to provide what it takes to secure the reconciliation and redemption. This is most commonly, or rather, most clearly seen in the coming of Jesus Christ! “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ……..” In the Christian understanding, this is actually God Himself come down in human form! God Himself descends!

God Himself descends and in Jesus Christ reconciles all things to Himself.

Colossians 3
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

If we think in terms of the vastness of God and how ‘set apart’ from us He truly is then we begin to realise how what we might consider our own “goodness” pales to nothing when set against God’s holiness. Thus if the question of whether any of us can be “good” is asked in terms of what “good” really means from the perspective of God’s holiness, we will all fail ------ woefully. In this context we can bear in mind the passage that says all our “righteousness” are like filthy rags before God! It is so because it is true! And we are indicted when we are told: “there is no one righteous --- not even one”!

This is the background context in which Christian doctrine appreciates the grace of God to the sinner unto redemption or salvation. As a human being, a person is already given so much --- even amidst the suffering and hardships that can be the lot of some of us. In the Christian perception, beyond the fallen world there is hope of a better world ---- another gift from God, but a world we are promised will not have the sufferings of the present in part because its inhabitants will have been cleansed. It may of course be asked if the problem of freewill and another “Fall” is not likely; well in the first place responding to the call to be cleansed is an act of freewill in the present world and the cleansing of the freewill to perpetually and always seek to do the will of God is then sealed spiritually.

So how to achieve this cleansing when a person’s own being “good” or supposed righteousness pales into insignificance in the face of God’s holiness?

TBC

Looking Within - The place of Introspection

It is very easy for each one of us to think of him/herself as a “good” person. And here I include even people of no “religious” faith. Even people of no “religious” faith often desire to be at least seen as “good” persons. However, is any of us really a “good” person? Is any of us really “good”?

I suggest that if we think deeply and thoroughly, we will find that each one of us falls short of truly being “good” – of our own. How thoroughly do we ever really assess each of our very own thoughts, words and deeds? How often do our words, thoughts and deeds meet the standard to be “good” --- even by our own judgment of what is “good”? That is even before we look at what God (in this presentation, I use the word “God” according to the Christian perception) considers to be “good”. Let each one of us outline and establish what we consider to be “good”. Then to the extent that we can with full honesty, let each one of us assess ourselves by our own standard of what is “good” and let us honestly check if we even meet our own standard of what is “good”.

OK, one person will say “I don’t steal”, “I don’t smoke”, “I don’t drink”, “I don’t commit adultery” etc etc. We can then ask the person: do you always treat other people as you want them to treat you? Do you want then to misunderstand and misrepresent your point of view? Do you want them to understand your point of view? Do you want them to respect your point of view? Do you want them to respect you - simples?

Do you act in this way to them --- as well?

When you are driving, do you cut people up, forcibly overtake and drive into their path (especially in that crazy Lagos, lol)? If they shout at you if/when you do it, how do you react? Do you recognise that they are justified to think you selfish and inconsiderate? If you are the one cut up, forcibly overtaken, do you consider that the other driver has done wrong? How do you react to their “wrong”?

On this forum, how respectful of other people’s views and convictions is each one of us? Even if you feel that your position/conviction/way is the better option, do you treat other people who see things differently with respect?

Are you really “good”?

Meanwhile, we have not yet even moved into the realm of thought, into the realm of the heart? Are your thoughts always pure? How do you deal with impure thoughts when they creep into your mind or heart? The story is told of a preacher/pastor who was rather uncomfortable that people were placing him on a pedestal and giving him ‘reverence’! He cautioned them and told them something like: ‘if you can see what is in my mind, you will want to spit in my face’!

Are you really “good”?

Note also that we have not really or fully moved into what God considers to be “good”. To look into what God considers to be “good”, we have to look into some aspects of the nature of God Himself. In this piece, I am not going to look at “good” from God’s perspective in terms of dictates and rules (i.e. do this or don’t do that). Rather, I am going to look at it in terms of just one aspect of God’s nature. One of the aspects of the nature of God of great importance to appreciating God in the Christian perception is that God is holy.

Grace of God Revealed to Sinners


Grace Even for the Sinner

Romans 5
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Hebrews 4
16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.


TBC

DrummaBoy: Again, we apologize for coming behind on the convention. The convention is on front page already and people are very expectant. The organizers are calling on Enigma to present his paper now, the one that was scheduled for 6.00pm. Shdemidemi will present his paper at 6.00pm instead.

Thank you for bearing with us so much, showing forth that coveted and graceful fruit of the Spirit: Patience.

^^ Accepted! It's even somewhat more convenient for me to go now!

@All Please bear with me as it may take about 4 to 5 posts to break them down into more manageable and easier to follow bits!

^^^I'd be happy to do that --- if ok with organisers?

@debosky

That is one powerful hymn! Here is a good performance below (though if possible one should check out a performance by York Minster with John Scott Whiteley on the organ --- super!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CTcICIS_XQ

In the meantime as we wait, Something both light and deep!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KMWd8nEQ2s

^^^ Why not go and recommend it on the Recommend for Front Page thread?

https://www.nairaland.com/1409972/recommend-threads-frontpage

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all the way.

@Ajibam

The kind of action/language you had to address is the kind of things that juveniles, people who are a bit slow, people who want to "feel amongst" and the like etc do!

Let me warn you that they do much worse and will do much worse. There is no morality or decency in atheism, so anything goes.

Edited

@OP

Very good work!

Personally, this is the kind of thing I like and expect of Christians to post to help educate and inform one another.

The Roman Catholic Church did not canonise anything at the African regional Synods/Councils of Hippo and Carthage.

Even before the Synod of Hippo, Athanasius of Alexandria who was not a Roman Catholic had in AD 367 identified the canon "handed down".

The Roman Catholic Church did not finalise its own canon until as late as the 16th century at the Council of Trent.

The Roman Catholic Church did not canonise anything at the African Synods of Hippo and Carthage.

Even before the Synod of Hippo, Athanasius of Alexandria who was not a Roman Catholic had in AD 367 identified the canon "handed down".

The Roman Catholic Church did not finalise its own canon until as late as the 16th century at the Council of Trent.

Lots of hot air over something which is not a problem for a Christian theologically or otherwise.

And to give the lie to Roman Catholic and others' falsehoods about the canon of the Bible, the Ethiopian Church includes the Book of Enoch in its Bible and canon. So can one then, strictly, say that the Book of Enoch is not part of "the Bible" or is not part of "the Biblical Canon"!

In any event, the passages from the book of Enoch are themselves taken from Deuteronomy and elsewhere in the traditional Old Testament.

There are other matters about the book but increasingly it is not really worthwhile discussing these things in an atmosphere of such ignorance, lack of wisdom and pandering to people with an agenda.

belabela:

....
My sole purpose in writing this piece is to open the eyes of the world and believers to the hypocrisy and nonsense behind the pulpit, and to plea that these wolves and blind men stop deflating the faith of people who Christ died for....

Not only are they shipwrecking people's faith, they are turning others to atheists by the bucketload and strengthening the skepticism of those who are already skeptics.

Thankfully, the Bible foretold of all these so we are not surprised or shocked.

Ishi babes, lef me and dem; no separate us oh!

More seriously, this particular thread is an old one that seemed to have run its course until someone revived it recently.

Sniff sniff "apostolic succession" lol.

Edit: oh, and "problem of identity" too! Yeah, just like 'Trigger's broom'. Double lol

^^^^

[img]http://.net/i/476.gif[/img]

^^^^

Where is that Idi Amin gif when you need it?

Edit: found it!

[img]http://.net/i/476.gif[/img]

Oh and by the way, the Eastern Orthodox Church aka the Orthodox Catholic Church also throws a 'smackdown' concerning "catholic" in the small 'c' adjectival sense.

Yet again from one I made earlier https://www.nairaland.com/1254965/eastern-orthodox-church-orthodox-catholic#15210581

270. Why is the Church called Catholic, or, which is the same thing, Universal?

Because she is not limited to any place, nor time, nor people, but contains true believers of all places, times, and peoples.

The Apostle Paul says that the Word of the Gospel is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit (Coloss. i. 5, 6), and that in the Christian Church there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Coloss. iii. 11. They which be of faith, are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal. iii. 9.

Hmmm, sniff sniff.

Well, for the benefit of people honestly assessing the facts, even the Roman Catholic Church admits to the word "catholic" in the small 'c' adjectival sense. It does so in no less than its own Catechism to start with!

Again from one I made earlier https://www.nairaland.com/1104124/problem-catholism-an-introspection/22#15211441

830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” The Church is catholic in a double sense: (795, 815-816)

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.”307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation”308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

Ubenedictus: it is usual, it is the natural anglican arguement. They confuse the development of the church in their heads. The long story above is like saying each time the name changed it means the church changed. It is illogical sematics.

Nah, it's called debunking Roman Catholic propaganda and falsehoods ---- with real facts.

Ubenedictus: Enigma knows how to tell a story to those who want to hear a story.

Just like Roman Catholic apologists like to spread falsehoods and propaganda for those who want to hear falsehoods and propaganda?

Cool.

And again here is one I made earlier https://www.nairaland.com/1254965/eastern-orthodox-church-orthodox-catholic#15219843

Before any of the things/events which the Roman Catholics claim to be where they set "the Canon" of the Bible, the Eastern Orthodox people had already looooong identified "the Canon" of the Bible.

The things events claimed by the Roman Catholics as where "they" established "the Canon" of the Bible are:

1. Council of Rome 382; this has been questioned and the supposed list of Bible books identified with it shown to be a forgery or at least a document produced hundreds of years later; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decretum_Gelasianum

2. Synod of Hippo 393 --- this was actually simply a regional synod of African churches!

3. Synods of Carthage 397 etc --- again these were regional synods of African churches!

4. Council of Trent 1546 etc --- this is truly where the Roman Catholics set their canon, at least finally; see how late, how recent i.e. 16th century!

Compare with Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter of AD 367 --- at least 15 years before number 1 above (Rome 382); this is also before one goes to study the contribution of people like Origen also of Alexandria going back nearly 200 years even earlier!

Part of Athanasius' Letter of 367 http://www.bible-researcher.com/athanasius.html

3. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the evangelist, saying on my own account, Forasmuch as some have taken in hand to reduce into order for themselves the books termed Apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the Fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as divine; to the end that anyone who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led them astray; and that he who has continued steadfast in purity may again rejoice, having these things brought to his remembrance.

4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second 1 being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth 2 as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second 3 are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the Twelve [minor prophets] being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle, one book; afterwards Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.

5. Again, it is not tedious to speak of the books of the New Testament. These are: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. After these, The Acts of the Apostles, and the seven epistles called Catholic: of James, one; of Peter, two, of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, written in this order: the first, to the Romans; then, two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians, then, to the Philippians; then, to the Colossians; after these, two of the Thessalonians; and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John.

1. The Church that started on the day of Pentecost still exists today.
2. All Christians today are the successor of that Pentecost Day Church or of the Jerusalem Church being talked about here.
3. Thus the Jerusalem Church and the Pentecost Church still lives on today ---- in Christians
4. Importantly remember that Jesus' Church is one! It does not know any denominations.
5. Jesus' Church is the Church of Christ or the Christian Church.
6. The Church of Christ on earth has lived since the day of Pentecost (at least) and continues to live today.
7. Members of the Church of Christ will happily share communion; they should not refuse one another "holy communion" because of denominationalism or because they do not accept the claimed authority of someone claimed to be the head of some 'church'.

Meanwhile Athanasius was not a Roman Catholic.

And happily, Athanasius who was not a Roman Catholic identified the existence of "the" canon of the Bible long before anything which the Roman Catholics can claim as where they established "the" canon --- including even things claimed falsely such as "Rome" (forgery), Hippo and Carthage (African and non-Roman Catholic affairs).

Logicboy03: ...

This mass is ended, go in peace...Enigma.

Thanks be to God!

And thank you ... in the name of Christ, Amen!

Meanwhile, go and learn the difference between "verb", noun and adjective.

Tgirl4real: Insightful and informative!

Did u come out from the catholic church?

let us just say I have strong Roman Catholic connections.

bizmahn: @OP.AWARD WINNING! EXCELLENT!! .
I was certain its impossible that catholics compiled the bible all the while folks kept ranting here.How can they compile what they adamantly refuse to obey?

The arguments of the Roman Catholic apologists that "they" "compiled" the Bible are based on falsehoods, misrepresentations and deliberate propaganda. I'm sorry to say that the propaganda even includes entries in Wikipedia and people should judge carefully when they read about Roman Catholicism in places like that. One would need to look beyond not so rigorous sources like Wikipedia.

Anyway here is a couple more helpful threads:

Short thread with short posts and quick to a number of significant points: https://www.nairaland.com/1254965/eastern-orthodox-church-orthodox-catholic

Longer with arguments from different sides: https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church