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 Christianity Etc › Re: Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland - Pentecostal Confusion by Enigma(m): 11:02am On Jul 30, 2013 |
Chibuebem: Sir, i speak primarily of Mr. Hagin. I do not know about the others. As I said earlier, yes, kenneth hagin taught prosperity, but he taught other things as well. And HE WROTE A BOOK to curtail the excesses you have stated in his followers. I defend his teachings as they are based on Gods word. Have you read his books?First, let me go back to a point you made in your earlier post about whether "this is the right way". By this I understand the question to mean whether we should be washing our dirty linen in public or whether we should be naming and shaming like this. I have had to examine this question and also refrained from talking about this people on this Board for some time now --- for a variety of reasons. However, the thread has already been opened (whether for good or for ill); and if on the thread there is a threat that innocent, honest, well-meaning Christians may be unknowingly falling prey to dangerous people, then it becomes necessary, or at least it becomes difficult not, to speak out! Now, it is true and fair that Hagin later tried to "correct excesses". However, that was years after having taught the very things that led to or even constituted the so-called "excesses". Yes, followers of a teacher may abuse his teachings to "excesses"; I am not convinced that is the case with Hagin; my view is that the so-called "excesses" are a direct result and effect of the falsehoods that he taught for years! And Hagin taught Copeland directly and Copeland taught Dollar directly. They all claim that what they are doing is following Hagin's teaching. On whether it can be God's will for one to be poor, my answer is 'Yes, it can be! It may be a controversial answer but I believe God can do anything for His own purpose and glory. Please read the story of Hosea and even Isaiah. Consider the answer when Paul asked that a thorn should be removed from him; check Paul talking about his various sufferings and circumstances. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland - Pentecostal Confusion by Enigma(m): 10:14am On Jul 30, 2013 |
Chibuebem Bros First of all, I'd like to say that my opinion is that no preacher or teacher knows it all, even Paul said so. In that sense, if we are nitpickers, we can find fault with any preacher at all. Second, I'd like to say that even those that some of us accuse as false teachers will quite often say accurate and even biblical things; therefore it is still possible to learn from them. Now the danger with the main WoF leaders is this: in one word counterfeit. Check this often used illustration: if I give you a 1000 naira bill and tell you that is e.g. a ten dollar bill, you will laugh at me. If I give you a very well forged 10 dollar bill, you may not immediately suspect me until e.g. if you pass the bill through some form of fake detector. The WoF leaders are in the latter category; they clothe their message with "Christian-speak" or "Christianese", they add some supportable Christian ideas, they quote copiously from the Bible, but at the heart of their message, they hide poison which subverts the message of Christ. Another illustration often used: if I place a bottle of liquid marked clearly "Poison", right thinking people will not drink from it; if I put small poison (though enough to kill) in a bottle of cola, even otherwise sensible people may unknowingly drink the poisoned cola. The WoF message subverts the teaching of Christ in many ways even belittling Christ and God the Father while elevating man to the status of "god": where Christ and the apostles taught contentment, the WoF message teaches "name it and claim it"; and the "positive confession" thing goes beyond just having a positive outlook or trusting in Jesus' statements like "be of good cheer" in that the positive confession thing is seen as being able to create things/realities etc. On whether I think a pastor should be poor, my answer is - 'not necessarily unless that is a calling for him'. On the other hand, a Christian let alone a pastor is not supposed to be obsessed with money and wealth --- which in the end is what WoF does! Have you ever seen Creflo Dollar & co doing the "Money cometh to me" madness on video?  Compare with 1 Timothy 6 These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. 11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland - Pentecostal Confusion by Enigma(m): 8:52am On Jul 30, 2013 |
@Tgirl4Real Very well said!  Edit: Christians are better advised to avoid people like Hagin (I'm afraid he was a liar), Copeland (a diabolic antichrist, in my view), Creflo Dollar (a grubby cretinous false teacher); it is best to avoid these people and their acolytes who preach their WoF poison like the plague. Sorry to those who are hearing criticism of these "men of gawd" for the first time or who are shocked by the directness. 3 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: What Is The Difference Between Jesus And God? by Enigma(m): 8:45am On Jul 30, 2013 |
@Dereformer God bless you mightily for those explanations and illustrations. Very helpful. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Righteousness Of The Laws Of Moses Vs Righteousness Of Grace Of Christ By Faith by Enigma(m): 6:30am On Jul 29, 2013 |
Hallelujah!!!! Dis one wey me and logicboy dey do paddy paddy first thing on Monday morning, no be dis week I go win lottery so?  |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Righteousness Of The Laws Of Moses Vs Righteousness Of Grace Of Christ By Faith by Enigma(m): 6:24am On Jul 29, 2013 |
^^^ You dis guy, I "propheSIZE" say you go become "pastor" one day! EDIT @Goshen I have quickly skimmed through the frosbel thread you referred to: as far as I can see I only made two posts on the thread and only one was even on the thread topic (the other was a little non thread-relevant observation). In honesty, if you posed a "challenge" to me on that thread, I didn't see it and haven't even seen it yet! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Righteousness Of The Laws Of Moses Vs Righteousness Of Grace Of Christ By Faith by Enigma(m): 5:36am On Jul 29, 2013 |
Bawo ni, Goshen. Just waking up, really. I'm not sure I know that frosbel's thread you are referring to; he has too many anyway ...... In any case, I will search for it. Yes, the point is this: I have never said that the law (Old Testament) applies to Christians. On the other hand, I will argue that some of the very same laws and rules of the Old Testament apply to Christians** ---- even under the New Testament. This is what Paul and the other apostles taught. This is also reflected in the point I made to you about your example with Constitutions. Go and take Nigeria's current Constitution (1999) and see how much and what percentage of it is exactly the same as the old Constitution (1979) --- and even previous Constitutions, granted to a lesser extent! Sometimes when people talk about "grace" without balancing scriptures properly, they eventually give a false impression of the true doctrine of grace and what Jesus Christ and the apostles taught. You too have to be careful about that! ** PS I notice that another thing that people have been missing in all this discussion of "law" and "grace" is how the Lord Jesus Christ Himself explained or "re-interpreted" some of the Old Testament rules and laws; the key point being that He showed the true intent and purport of those rules and laws. Well, that true intent and purport remains till today ---- even under the era of "grace". Again, when you study and understand this, you will be more cautious in your approach, at least I hope so! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Righteousness Of The Laws Of Moses Vs Righteousness Of Grace Of Christ By Faith by Enigma(m): 5:03am On Jul 29, 2013 |
Goshen360: ....1. I don't know what you are talking about here. 2. I don't know when you posed this your "challenge" to me! 3. I don't see how you could have posed your "challenge" to me when I never told you about any division into moral law and ceremonial law etc 4. Anyone who knows how vigorously I have challenged the modern teaching on "tithing" (since 2005 here and long before elsewhere) will tell you that I have often made distinctions between certain things (including statements of Jesus Christ) that applied to people who were under the law but not to Christians. 5. Your effort is good, but I think your understanding of the application of the Old and New Testaments for the Christian is in the end simplistic and flawed. {Your use of the Constitution as an example is also flawed: even if an old Constitution no longer applies, you forget that rules may be copied from it in exactly the same and identical wording into the new Constitution} 6. Your intention is good and the ultimate point you wish to make is good but your manner of approach on some detail is weak if not even wrong. Specifically, when you truly understand the Romans 13 passage that Bidam quoted, you will see where you are missing some things. 7. Finally, if you throw any "challenge" to me on this thread, I will not honour it. 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 1:14pm On Jul 27, 2013 |
Pastor Kun: I thought I'd supply the dictionary meaning of Deity for trinitarians who wrongly assume deity only means God. .......Examining the "logic" of the Jesus is “a god” 'thinking' --- using a definition supplied by one of its adherents deityIs Jesus “deity” in this sense? (Just like Baal, Shango, Yemoja, Mammy-wata etc?) 2. divine character or nature, especially that of the Supreme Being; divinity.Is Jesus “deity” in this sense? And here the defenders will have to explain what is meant by “divine character” and how you distinguish between the divine character of the Supreme Being and the divine character of others that are not the Supreme Being! 3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.Is Jesus “deity” in this sense? 4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.Is Jesus “deity” in this sense? 5. God; Supreme BeingHmmm, Is Jesus “deity” in this sense? 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 12:55pm On Jul 27, 2013 |
Pastor Kun: In case it's lost on you, 'deity' is an English word so we have to accept the dictionary definition and not what you imagine it to be.Of course the biblical teaching and its internal logic is lost on you. Yeah, Jesus is "deity" like Baal, Shango,etc Rubbish! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 11:49am On Jul 27, 2013 |
frosbel: The Lord said to My Lord - first hint.lol lol lol There is ONE Lord. Then there are two Lords! Yeah, right! lol Let us use our friends own quote" frosbel: The creed of Jesus :When did there is ONLY ONE Lord mean there are two Lords? When did the ONE and ONLY Lord become two Lords? 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 11:20am On Jul 27, 2013 |
So David who knows that "our God is the One and ONLY Lord ----- now has two Lords! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 11:16am On Jul 27, 2013 |
frosbel: The creed of Jesus :Mark 12 35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’ 37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?” 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 11:02am On Jul 27, 2013 |
Some people are quoting dictionary 'definitions' of "deity" out of a misunderstanding and poor biblical thinking. All deities other than God are false, false deities, false gods. Therefore if Jesus is a "deity" like any of these "dictionary deities" then Jesus too is a false deity and a false god. That is why the Bible says that God is one and that is why Jesus is one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Simples. 3 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ by Enigma(m): 12:46pm On Jul 26, 2013 |
^^^ In fact, not only would it make Jesus a "lesser" god; it will make him a false god. Biblically, it simply does not make sense to say Jesus is "deity" but not "God"; it is unbiblical and it is nonsensical. The Jehovah Witnesses are the chief proponents of that nonsense. See a discussion of how much they had to manipulate their bankrupt sham of a "bible" to "support" the nonsense http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/jehovah-new-testament.php 4 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Who The Hell Said The Big Bang And Evolution Explain Life??????? by Enigma(m): 1:23pm On Jul 25, 2013 |
^^^ No problem, make una dey do una own things! I've always preferred to discuss primarily Christian topics with Christians and other open minded people. Best wishes  |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Who The Hell Said The Big Bang And Evolution Explain Life??????? by Enigma(m): 12:51pm On Jul 25, 2013 |
plaetton: Davidylan.This one flatters himself in an attempt to deceive others. Anyone who knows me will know that I don't waste much time on conspiracy theory loonies and similar ignoramuses, let alone to be an "irredeemable detractor" of such a one! In any event, a fool will usually show himself to be a fool --- even if only eventually. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 9:39pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
@benalvino We don't even need to stress ourselves if some call Mary "mother of God". We know that Jesus created Mary. If the expression "mother of God" is seen as being just "in a sense", it shouldn't really bother us as such. What causes it to bother us are things like the stretch that some people make e.g. claiming "immaculate conception", "assumption" and effectively turning Mary into another "intermediary/mediator". So if people say that believing that Jesus is God is to say that Mary is "mother of God", I personally will say, 'so what'? I don't really expect educated people to be so thick as to take that literally. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 8:32pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
Meanwhile after Mr Nebuchadnezzar was told what was going to happen to him, here is what he did and said: Daniel 2 46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.” Even Nebu who was supposed to be the "king of kings" knew who was the true God of gods and "Lord" of Kings! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 8:23pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
A propos the Ancient of Days Previously posted on a couple of occasions before e.g. https://www.nairaland.com/1064710/dilemma-god-trinity/22#12577934 Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.Micah 5:2 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for meRevelation 1:14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.2 Thessalonians 1:7 . . . . This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Saints And Sinners by Enigma(m): 12:55pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
Candour: OK my brother,can you pls explain what Luke 18:34 means?Remember that the Bible does not detail every single thing the apostles did or taught. What about the apostles whose ministries were hardly mentioned at all --- are we to say that is because they knew, taught and did nothing? No, of course not! About Luke 18 and the fact that the apostles didn't understand a particular thing at a particular time or that it was "hidden from them", we should remember that there is a time for everything. At a particular time, it might not be given to them to know some thing; but it may be revealed later at a time of God's choosing. Now, it is important to remember that because of fellowship and because of Jesus' own corporate view of His disciples, even if something is revealed to one apostle, as far as we can see, it usually ends up being for all. Let me point to two important things to bear in mind! 1. "Flesh and blood" did not reveal Jesus' "Sonship" to Peter, the Father did. Who then revealed it to the other apostles? Who even revealed it to Paul? 2. What about all the promises to the apostles that the Holy Spirit will lead them to all truth? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Saints And Sinners by Enigma(m): 12:47pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
Bros My position is that they all preached "the Kingdom"; they all preached one thing; they all preached the one gospel. You can see the Acts 1:6 incident as a continuation of their "education" and of course that specific education was accompanied with the confirmation of the promise of the power to come to them with the Holy Spirit. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Saints And Sinners by Enigma(m): 12:31pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
Jesus to his disciples! Luke 8 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. So, the "mysteries" were revealed to all the apostles. Nothing revealed to Paul was hidden from Peter etc |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 12:23pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
^^^ Una dey take that point about Nebuchadnezzar seriously? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 12:09pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
debosky: @ Frosbel Any chance of getting a response to the questions I raised? At least you should be less encumbered now your padi ijawkid is on the scene.My brother When we confess that God is great and unsearchable and therefore there is element of "mystery" beyond us, they say we are hiding behind the word "mystery". They say God must be "logical": but then they cannot honestly follow clear logic: like One God, One Lord, one King; therefore One God of gods, One Lord of lords, One King of kings. Wetin we can do other than to put out the points to strengthen some, help some, inform some and hope our friends too somehow get help --- especially from above! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 12:04pm On Jul 24, 2013 |
@idnoble35 Read and enjoy this: 1 Corinthians 12 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 11:43am On Jul 24, 2013 |
@ Goshen360 O ga o. May God open the eyes of our friends. That verse of 'the Lord is the Spirit' is very good indeed and makes many points which might not be readily seen. Incidentally, one of the types of points it makes is what I was about to make with another biblical statement. OK. At least so far no one has denied that the Bible says Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. That is good. On the other hand, the Bible also says God the Father is King of kings and Lord of lords. You see, this doctrine of the "Godhead" (just to temporarily avoid using the word 'trinity') is just so magnificent in the way we are shown by several means of the unity of the Persons of that Godhead. Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes." Psalm 136:3 "Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever." 1 Timothy 6:14,15 "... keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords" Revelation 17:4 "They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings ...." Revelation 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 10:41am On Jul 24, 2013 |
I want to highlight an important point made by benalvino; the point is somewhat hidden amidst posts but is quite important. The Bible says there is one God, the Father ---- because of this, some say Jesus cannot be "God" But then the Bible also says there is one Lord, Jesus Christ ---- so, do we then say that the Father cannot be "Lord"? On top of those, the Bible says Jesus is "Lord of Lords" ---- does that then mean that if the Father too is "Lord", then Jesus is above the Father since Jesus is "Lord of Lords? Further, the Bible says Jesus is "King of Kings" ---- does that then mean that the Father is not "King"? ---- does that then mean that if the Father too is "King", then Jesus is above the Father since Jesus is "King of Kings? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 9:14am On Jul 24, 2013 |
You know, I have just looked again at the title of this thread ...... and it struck me that the Holy Spirit is trying to tell frosbel something. Pray, he will listen and 'hearken'! 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 9:10am On Jul 24, 2013 |
Bidam: |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 8:59am On Jul 24, 2013 |
benalvino: Tell him to provide a verse that say there is One Lord the father... Since the Bible say the One Lord is Jesus... so we should throw away the father as Lord also? he will argue No...Also, if we look again at 1 Corinthians 8:6, I want to make reference to a post I made some time ago here https://www.nairaland.com/1068073/frosbel-jesus-christ-re-proposition/3#12510482 Extract 1. We start with the famous Deuteronomy passage. Deuteronomy 6 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.This is the original Jewish "Shema". Here "our God" = Elohenu; while "The Lord" = Yahweh. 2. However, Paul recasts that same Shema deliberately in Christian terms in 1 Corinthians 8: 4-6 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Here, "God" = theos; "Lord" = kyrios I have pointed out elsewhere that in the Septuagint "Yahweh" is translated "Kyrios": Paul is quoted in the New Testament as though he too was using The Septuagint; Paul could not have been unaware of The Septuagint or that it translates "Yahweh" as "Kyrios" . . . . /Extract Thus we could take some liberty to do the following with reasonable justification: 1. Yahweh our Elohim Yahweh is One 2. ... for us there is but one Theos/Elohim, the Father ... and ... one Kyrios/Yahweh, Jesus Christ 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Brother Frosbel, Please Stop This Fight Against Trinity by Enigma(m): 8:43am On Jul 24, 2013 |
Comparing Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and following an observation earlier about the word "another" and its importance regarding the statuses of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, here an interesting little exercise: John 14: 16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another [parakletos], that he may abide with you for ever" compare 1 John 2:1 "...... we have an [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" |
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