₦airaland Forum

GloryIsaac:
They play a role in it because they’re occupying the space of an extra player.

They can’t individually function in their primary role well due to their limitations hence the need to pair them for technically the same role.

At Madrid, Casemiro plays that role.
At Barca, Busquets.
At City, Rodri or Fernandinho.
At Bayern, Kimmich.
At Liverpool (at full strength), Fabinho.
At Chelsea (Pre-Tuchel), Kante.
At PSG, Gueye.

The mentioned players all possess both abilities of McFred, and they aren’t hybrids.

As said earlier, this might look alien because we’re already accustomed to McFred.

Did Pogba not pair either of them before he got injured?

What's this accustomed you have been saying? Because of this season, e don turn accustomed? We are saying the system is shit and instead of pointing fingers in the right direction, we are looking for targets we don't like. VDB has not done himself any favors too

afrodoc2:
What is the origin of this Gundogan CM or AM debate sef?

Nitrogen said midfielders should not be scoring goals, that we should check other top teams. He goofed by mentioning City, so I brought up Gundogan's stats. Someone that has only 1 assist in a free scoring City side

Panther7:
That's unfair criticism

VDB isn't Bruno he is a different player and his strengths are; link up play, short passes and goal predator in the box.

People make this unfair assertion that VDB is suppose to do a Bruno ( play line breaking passes and long passes into the box) VDB isn't that player.


Unfortunately the only person that has scouted and watched VDB extensively on this thread is Kagawa and Afrodoc2 to less degree. Kagawa listed his qualities as far back as 2018 and analayzed what he does best.



If Amaka can't find a system or adjust his system to suit VDB when he plays that's Amaka's fault. He should find another creative player to provide such creativity unfortunately Mcfred can't provide that.

Then people should stop blaming McFred for everything that happens to the club. At this time, VDB does not fit in, simple. He will need to adjust his game to play fast counter football like Ole wants. It has nothing to do with McFred. If another coach comes tomorrow and prefer the patient build up style, emphasizing on the use of their brain when with the ball or without it, VDB will do better in that system

nitrogen:
Gundogan, technically plays as an attacking midfielder at City. If a team dominates for 60-70 minutes out of 90 and a CM mostly plays in AM position throughout the game, then the initial position does not matter.

One question, how come there is a huge space for Rodri to cover when City surrenders possession (completely)?

That Cancelo pushes forward does not make him a CM or winger. If we play that dominantly too and are disciplined, McFred will be playing as AM too

GloryIsaac:
The discussion is how McFred play a role in hindering VDBs excellence for the team.

I have explained it up there that Fernandes bears the same burden that two attacking midfielders bear at Man City.

Which means that when VDB is put to replace Fernandes, he automatically bears same burden, and he can’t function properly with that much on him, Lingard and Perriera were much worse in same position.

And considering putting in a shift, the same is done for any position on the pitch regardless of the team. Leicester’s not special, but in spite of that, Ndidi still brings that long-sought balance to the midfield.

It’s understandable that this might look alien because we’re already familiar with McFred, but as a team looking to dominate the league and the continent at large, these little things matter. Matic could have been the better option in the team if not for old legs.

Actually, I don't see how its any of those 2 fault. VDB has to do more than running into the box and playing those short, safe passes you accuse McFred of

GloryIsaac:
The discussion is how McFred play a role in hindering VDBs excellence for the team.

I have explained it up there that Fernandes bears the same burden that two attacking midfielders bear at Man City.

Which means that when VDB is put to replace Fernandes, he automatically bears same burden, and he can’t function properly with that much on him, Lingard and Perriera were much worse in same position.

And considering putting in a shift, the same is done for any position on the pitch regardless of the team. Leicester’s not special, but in spite of that, Ndidi still brings that long-sought balance to the midfield.

It’s understandable that this might look alien because we’re already familiar with McFred, but as a team looking to dominate the league and the continent at large, these little things matter. Matic could have been the better option in the team if not for old legs.

Those midfielders that you're calling AM in ManCity were not originally AM, the training and tactics made them so. Watching Cancelo, one would think he plays in the midfield for City. That City are able to push forward is not because Rodri is very solid and offers that defensive shield, its because the attackers and other midfielders are very disciplined and stay on their men. They fall back to block the channels and win the ball back asap

GloryIsaac:
I updated the post.

Exactly though. McFred is efficient against teams that have the right quality to stretch the midfield using their fullbacks e.g Liverpool, but even at that Ndidi still beats both of them combined.

He showed top quality against Liverpool despite functioning as a sole defensive midfielder, whereas McFred usually have to share the role else the midfield will collapse.

Beside Ndidi is Tielemans. Plus the wingers and attackers put in great shift when without the ball. Vardy is even comfortable playing that way so he has space to run. Which of our CM offers the solidity Tielemans is offering beside Ndidi or you think Ndidi is doing it all by himself? Do you understand the shift Barnes and co is even putting in to make things work? I tell you, if we swap McFred for Ndidi today, we will still have problems

nitrogen:
Exactly my thoughts and submissions. Pep does two AMs, Rodri is the only DM. Man Utd would either play double 4 or have some sort of a diamond formation which almost looks like two DMs as the game proceeds.

I don’t have issues with McFred combo when we play big teams, but we should avoid it when we play other teams abeg.

The reason why we play diamond is because we have more CM than wingers. James and Greenwood are hardly giving us the numbers from the wings. And that's even against tougher opponents sef.

No Gundogan, no Stones, no Mee. Wasted double week. Didn't gain a single extra point

Those boys are good with the ball. What about when they are not with the ball, what shape do they take? Can they follow their man all the way?

nitrogen:
I agree that it's tactical flexibility, but the fact is Pep uses two AMs. When they attack, Gundogan pushes forward, what about when they are chasing the ball? Do you think that Gundogan and KDB/Silva recover quickly to the central midfield to ultimately help/support Rodri? No. The gap is always there, what they typically do is try to press and collect the ball back ASAP or have one of the defenders step up to support Rodri. I think I watch City more than you do.

We all know how Pep's team suffers when they face a team that breaks and transitions easily from defence to attack, reason he tries to rely mostly on one of the CBs to support Rodri, since most times, the AMs are closer to the opponent's box.

I watched City's matches against LFC and Tottenham. I even mentioned it here how those guys form 2-3 walls without the ball. Every player, including the striker falls back to their half when they lose the ball and are unable to recover it in their opponent's half

nitrogen:
My point is when City attacks (which they do 60-70 percent in a game), they have one of their CBs become a DM while Rodri turns to a CM + DM. The remaining two midfielders are AMs throughout, the style of play ensures that they snuff out threats/risks before they get escalated. When almost all your players are in the opponents' half, the reasonable option when you lose the ball is to recover it ASAP, if you don't, then the midfield/defense gets exposed especially when the opponent has fast forwards and are good with counter-attacks.

Rodri suffers the most when the opponent is able to transition quickly beyond City's front men. See the picture below. Laporte had to step in to help, the other midfielders are in the front.

This is due to Peps tactical prowess. It doesn't change the fact that Cancelo is no more the RB because you see him in the midfield and attacking positions. They didn't start the match in those positions

nitrogen:
That's why the defence is exposed when they play opponents that have very fast and pacy forwards. But his style ensures that the ball is recovered ASAP before it gets to Rodri's zone (CM + DM), dont forget that Fernandino doubles as a CB and DM when City attacks which means Rodri can easily become a CM on the pitch.

You have easily forgotten how exposed City can be when they don't quickly snuff out opponents' threats before they get to the midfield.

I'm not sure I understand your point here

nitrogen:
In the UCL, KDB played AM in both games he played for City. FA cup, AM, only Carling cup where he played as a CM twice.

Pogba still has no single assist in 15 apps in the league. So much for forward passes

But City football flow can make one believe there is no keeper sef, just 7 attackers

nitrogen:
2 AMs.....Rodri is the DM.

You honestly think Pep will just expose his midfield like that? When has he played 1 DM and 2 AM before? Even when David Silva and Fernadinho was there, Pep didn't play 1 DM and no CM

nitrogen:
Wait, even if I want to agree with you that Gundogan is a CM, who plays AM for City? Dont tell me it's KDB, because you just told us that KDB plays CM for City.

Silva, Gundogan and Rodri on the field. Who's your AM?

nitrogen:
Lol, we have been focusing on the EPL since na, do you want me to bring his UCL stats? KDB is majorly an AM for City. Just accept it and move on!

Again, I already told you that a CM should not be giving you goals and assists. AM can, that's fine! In fact, Pogba has 3 or so mfc nnEPL goals as a CM, but KDB as a CM has scored zero goals, how about that?

I'm not sure I mentioned just EPL but anyways let's move on since Gundogan has suddenly become AM to you

nitrogen:
You know this abeg....I already told you that Pep uses 2 AMs.

Gundogan plays CM abeg na haba

patrickmuf:
Gundogan plays CM with license to go forward when City are attacking...

Because nitrogen sees Gundogan scoring, he thinks he's an AM. Very soon we may begin to hear that he's the striker

nitrogen:
Eph, do you even watch City's games? You want to tell me that KDB plays CM most times, really? Haha

What does Gundogan play for City?

nitrogen:
Lol.

Is there a reason you're picking only stats from the EPL? Do you know that Pogba has 15 apps in the CM and no single assists in the EPL?

nitrogen:
You are right, Pogba has better defensive stats (e.g. tackle success is 62% vs Fred's 56%), more long through balls, while Fred has higher passing accuracy from short passes because he plays it really safe.

Don't even do any comparison abeg! I don't berate players, but Fred is not helping the team at all.

You spoke about backward and side way passes, that's why I brought those stats. How do you measure these forward passes? Where is your proof? What concerns backward and side way passes with tackles?

nitrogen:
KDB CM this season? Really? He's only played the CM role 3 times this season (in the league) in 18 games, and he provided just one assist from that position this season.

Tell me more!

This is my source. What's yours?

nitrogen:
Well, I think that Eph12 is a Fred guy, he knows that if Pogba is available, Fred gets benched, reason for his reaction. Fred is almost useless in a creative midfield as he does not know how to pass and/or shoot. He is only good for defensive styles and at passing sideways/backward.

In all, I blame Amaka. He continues to use McFred because he is clueless!

There's nothing more false than this. It looks like something one would bring from the pit of hell. Fred has same key pass per game as Pogba. Same with through ball. From which person's ass did you bring this lie from?

That's the same way people said Maguire only passes backwards or sideways.

Fred will still play with Pogba in the team. We have seen it many times. When I talk about Pogba, it's not because of Fred. Pogba is not a threat to Fred's position on the team. If you don't know this, you haven't been watching our matches

nitrogen:
This is not what I am saying. I dont care about assists and goals from Pogba, I care about effective play. If your team is 'effective', then you wont concede lots of goals and you will score lots of goals without the CM providing assists or scoring goals.

What does effective play mean?

nitrogen:
Well, it's a different thing to have a manager (that knows what he is doing) allow one of his AMs get in ahead of his attackers, Man Utd's is different because we don't have a tactical manager, the boys are on autopilot. Forget the free role nonsense!

Why cant we do KDB vs Bruno if they have almost the same role? and why should we do KDB vs Pogba this season if they are not playing in the same position?

This season KDB has played CM in 9 matches and has 9 assists. Pogba has played CM in all his matches and has 2 assists

Expert17:
Na Pogba fans dey shout up and down

My dream midfield with the current players we have include Pogba because I recognize his quality. But when we start to see things like Pogba in the team will automatically make the team score more goals or concede lesser goals, it shocks me. We have been here many times before. Then we start to see some analysis that wants to bring down a player just to make another look better and it's not justifiable, e dey weak me

Panther7:
Nahh he is dragging goal with the strikers he should leave the goals for them

Bro has just 1 assists with all the movements in City's game ffs. But he's the current best thing since slice bread. Bruno will be hanged by the balls if that's his stats

nitrogen:
Gundogan has 1 assist. He has scored 11 EPL goals (as an AM this season because Pep sees him as one), maybe he is also stat padding. I don't know what the guy is doing sha, It could be the impact of tactics since Pep plays 2 AMs and 1 DM. Anyway, what I know is KDB does more assists and maybe just 10 goals per season.

My point is CMs don't need to post goals and assists. AMs can post assists and some goals while CMs should facilitate play!

Meanwhile, Pep plays 2 AMs and 1 DM, and our manager does almost 3 DMs. That's crazy!

What it means is that if a player is better at getting in positions and delivering the goals, you jump on that. Pep has realized this about Gundogan and he has given him the free role to get in the box even ahead of his attackers. In football these days, you talk about position alongside roles. Players are not limited by positions anymore. If fullbacks are encouraged to get very close to the opposition box, why shouldn't the AM or CM get in there if he has the sense to get in position?

Don't make this a KDB vs Bruno thing. Because nothing stopping us from making it a KDB vs Pogba too

nitrogen:
That's the main thing, we need to play as a team, we don't need a lot of assists and goals from Pogba, he is not the AM or one of the attackers, it's team play that he should be helping with. Of course, we need to sort out our style of play, everything I am saying makes no sense until OGS becomes sensible. The team has been relying on individual brilliance for goals.

Midfielders (CMs, DMs) are judged by number of passes, the accuracy of passes, interceptions, tackles, overall play, and not goals and assists. The forwards will take care of those. Even AMs should not be scoring lots of goals, but yeah, the game has changed, you see an AM trying to compete with his strikers for goals. Check Liverpool, City, and other top teams in Europe, their midfielders facilitate plays and not drag goals with forwards (also, you wont see proper DMs and CMs dragging assists with AMs and forwards).

Lol guess who City's highest scorer in the epl is? Also guess how many assists he has. Then guess his position on the field

Nitrogen pogba has just 2 assists in 19 appearances this season and his presence is supposed to make our attack better?

This is not a slight on Pogba. We will still struggle with him in the team, until the team learn to play better as a team.