₦airaland Forum

WinningEleven:
How do I be filled everyday? How to I get wood to Lee my spirit fire burning constantly?
I await your answer sjr

Have you ever been filled before?

Bodydialect57:
The tares, the seed of Satan by nature promoting sin, evil and injustice will frustrate the good desires in the believer for righteousness, even suffocating them, adding fuel to the fire of warfare that the flesh mounts on the spirit inside the believer. They will fill the outside world with all evil until at some point, the believer gets the message that God within is His only hope (1Jn4:4), as reaching Him from the external proves insufficient and begins to work towards God's perfect will. Had the tares been plucked before then, the believer would still be caught in the middle of this war between flesh and spirit(Gal5:17), unprepared for the coming of the Lord, which state requires spirit perfectly annihilating flesh resulting in stainless righteousness(Eph5:27), which is an eternal loss to the believer, not affording him God's best on earth and eternity. Picture the fact that the wheat competing for survival against the tares in the field will have to pull on every fibre within them making them stronger and more developed.
The pressure from tares is to bring the best out of you dear believer. Don't be discouraged, forge on!

Bodydialect, how are you doing? Hope you're having a blessed day? Please take note that I just modified this post you quoted for the sake of other readers to have better understanding, so you may requote the edited one instead if you wish. I may make further modifications too in future. Bless you.

If you're a true believer who knows the Lord but have somehow fallen victim to the lust menace, here are some helpful tips on dealing with it to the very root from some excerpts of my posts on similar threads. Lust is a fire that must be quenched and every sexual act is fuel.

You will never win by struggling (you'll only fall deeper if you wield the arm of flesh because flesh begets [strengthens] flesh) but you will surely win by the Life of Christ manifested in you. To have His life manifested in you, begin by mechanically denying your freshly lusts (both towards women, by ceasing to look at obscenity and also all other known fleshy tendencies). Of course, in the case of lust towards women, your attempts will be met with many failures(as it has already built a stronghold in your life) before His life is manifested in you but don't let that deter you, you are in process of activating His life, in which is your victory, only if you persevere in spite of a billion failed attempts. When your attempts have reached the mark, you will see a miraculous event occur. It is the Christ in you manifesting His life, at that point you will not experience a struggle again with it, but will see His Spirit literally carrying you by His own ability, hence complete victory over that lust. I await your testimony.

Let me further expatiate. You may wonder how you could possibly be being told to stop feeding your lust by looking at obscenities and fornicating, when you just said you're struggling to. The point is you just begin to make attempts/practise, though you may fail again and again and have had many past failures. But don't get distracted by your failures (God is not condemning you but cheering you on, as unbelievable as it may sound, Rom8:34), just keep practising denying the flesh. Slowly but surely, you'll soon start having little successes here and there. That's not your endpoint, however. Your endpoint is to release the power of Christ in your spirit, which will completely terminate the habit as well as other manifestations of flesh you're not focusing on yet, and that in just an instant of time. So keep practising saying no to gratification, even though you fail many times alongside(you're not trying to prove yourself to God, we're all messed up in ourselves and He knows that and is not surprised you're struggling with sin. This is just about activating the resident power of Christ He put in you, Eph1:19-20, Eph3:20). When you reach a point (tipping point) in your self denial quantity of attempts, the power of Christ will be released from your spirit, then that will be the permanent end of that struggle and also the beginning of a new life in the Spirit with God-given vision for your life.
To make this even faster, don't get so focused on only this lust, but look at every lust and attitude in your life that God does not want and practise saying no to them, so that your self-denial attempts will reach tipping point even faster. But don't get too impatient, expecting the miracle in a sec. It has taken years to build this habit and will take some time to get to the tipping point.
Note: I've had 100% testimonies helping people with this formula. It never fails because it is the true word of God. (Titus2: 11-12)

On dealing with all unrighteousness in our lives

Good question. Simple. The only economy God has provided to deal with all human character/ nature problems is that of GRACE. It was grace that brought us into our damnation-free status and access to the nature of God at conversion. We recieved this status by grace alone and will be perfected by grace. The thing is while we received grace without any input of ours at conversion, to enjoy the other privileges of grace all the way to the ultimate, we would need to learn how to walk in, have constantly (Heb 12:28)and grow in grace(2Pet 3:18). Grace is maintained and increased by prayer(Heb 4:16), fasting(2Cor11:27, Acts9:9), revelation knowledge(2Pet 1:2-3) and acts of pure/true love(Gal6:9, Heb 6:9-12). All these are like seeds of grace that with CONSISTENCY produce fruit (multiplier effect) of grace. Without these, a believer will be stuck on the first level of grace he received, and this will eventually be frustrated by the flesh making him live in continuous struggles in his spiritual life ranging from habitual sins to demonic/witchcraft oppression, to lovelessness for God and love for the world e.t.c. While these may not lead him to loss of heaven (only the sin of apostasy can), they may lead to spiritual failure and worse still may lead to the sin of apostasy. So, its up to him to sow as many seeds of grace as will reap sufficient increase to overcome the opposition to his spiritual liberty. A popular mistake people make is to consider these seeds of grace to be human works that cannot get us anything from God but they are not because we do not present them as a bailout but as an investment which when reached their full measure will draw out more grace from the grace-bank of God. (Gal 6:7-9)
N.B. These seeds of grace themselves will not grant you victory over the flesh but if perseveringly kept at, of course not with machine perfection, they will eventually release greater yield of GRACE which then gives effortless, struggle-free victory over the flesh. There is how you come into holiness from

Questions are welcome
Cc:WinningEleven

ALAGOGO007:
I have been addicted to porn for ages. I have done everything to overcome. I have never been helped. I have been to minister, done all the things, such as repentance, promised God i will never do it again, and even made substitutes for the cross, such as notes on my computer, reminders on my door and even kept a stone in my pocket to remind me of my promise to God I will never do it again.

Christian churches – did nothing but put more guilt on me, just drove me deeper into my struggles that I became so afraid to talk about my battle. The Christian community is very condemning of sexual sins and hush hush. We model to our communities our condemnation by not talking about it.

Many ministers are ill-educated in helping people in sexual sin. They say something is wrong with you if you do this. They say you are not the Christian you need to be. Very behavioral-based.

These attitudes add to the gap between my struggle and God’s standard. I am led to believe that I am abnormal, when in fact I share a common struggle. I become afraid to share further struggles and spiral deeper.

Over 70% of Christians watch porn and 50% of ministers watch porn. (This doesn’t even include lusting.) It doesn’t stop until age sets in. Either heaven will be empty or, full of ex perverts. I believe i'm not alone in this struggle, i just want a lasting solution to porn addiction. I need help to overcome this struggle

Assuming you're a believer in the Lord, here's an excerpt from my post on a similar thread:

You will never win by struggling but you will surely win by the Life of Christ manifested in you. To have His life manifested in you, begin by mechanically denying your freshly lusts (both towards women, by ceasing to look at obscenity and also all other known fleshy tendencies). Of course, in the case of lust towards women, your attempts will be met with many failures(as it has already built a stronghold in your life) before His life is manifested in you but don't let that deter you, you are in process of activating His life, in which is your victory, only if you persevere in spite of a billion failed attempts. When your attempts have reached the mark, you will see a miraculous event occur. It is the Christ in you manifesting His life, at that point you will not experience a struggle again with it, but will see His Spirit literally carrying you by His own ability, hence complete victory over that lust. I await your testimony.

Let me further expatiate. You may wonder how you could possibly be being told to stop feeding your lust by looking at obscenities and fornicating, when you just said you're struggling to. The point is you just begin to make attempts/practise, though you may fail again and again and have had many past failures. But don't get distracted by your failures (God is not condemning you but cheering you on, as unbelievable as it may sound, Rom8:34), just keep practising denying the flesh. Slowly but surely, you'll soon start having little successes here and there. That's not your endpoint, however. Your endpoint is to release the power of Christ in your spirit, which will completely terminate the habit as well as other manifestations of flesh you're not focusing on yet, and that in just an instant of time. So keep practising saying no to gratification, even though you fail many times alongside(you're not trying to prove yourself to God, we're all messed up in ourselves and He knows that and is not surprised you're struggling with sin. This is just about activating the resident power of Christ He put in you, Eph1:19-20, Eph3:20). When you reach a point (tipping point) in your self denial quantity of attempts, the power of Christ will be released from your spirit, then that will be the permanent end of that struggle and also the beginning of a new life in the Spirit with God-given vision for your life.
To make this even faster, don't get so focused on only this lust, but look at every lust and attitude in your life that God does not want and practise saying no to them, so that your self-denial attempts will reach tipping point even faster. But don't get too impatient, expecting the miracle in a sec. It has taken years to build this habit and will take some time to get to the tipping point.
Note: I've had 100% testimonies helping people with this formula. It never fails because it is the true word of God. (Titus2: 11-12)
Questions are welcome

shadeyinka:
As per the authority of every word of the the scriptures, I stand on these two
Rom 15:4:
"For whatever things were written aforetime were written for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

2Tim 3:16:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Both statements refer to the OT btw as NT was not available at the time. And we can learn from everything recorded even the mistakes of David, Saul, Samson, Moses... but their wrong actions/words or any other thing they did/said without the inspiration of the God (hence not scripture according to your text 2Tim3:16. Learn to filter) will never be the Word of God or His laws which as I said before are immutable scripture.

You seem to say: "anyone who does not agree with YOUR interpretation/ understanding of the scriptures" is in sin (at the level of Eve's) and pride of trivializing and countering God's word . How wrong could you be! No one on earth is a custodian of perfect interpretation of the scriptures. The best anyone can do is

My interpretation? How is it even possible you think this. What a heavy, misleading suspicion or am I the Holy Spirit. Please I'd rather you never take anything from me or anyone else, just follow my suggestion of learning directly from the Spirit. As a matter ov fact, what I've mainly done in this thread is even to show wrongs so we can humbly go back to the Spirit for a right interpretation. Or is soliciting for us to take God at His word and see His word from a spiritual context so(Is55:8,9, Rom7:14). Please justify this serious accusation with my words here as premise, otherwise please take it back with an acknowledgement.

Hence as I said earlier, we must seek the help of the Spirit when dealing with scriptures.

And no mature believer, not to mention the apostle Paul, or any other apostle, should interpret them through contemporary culture or any other lens than the Holy Spirit.

2Pet 1:20:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

You probably don't know that what Peter is telling you exactly what I've told you here.

And no mature believer, not to mention the apostle Paul, or any other apostle, should interpret them through contemporary culture or any other lens than the Holy Spirit.

Read it together with the following verse
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

The reason we cannot all have our own separate(private), conflicting interpretations of scripture like many people might suggest is because it didn't come from men's minds but by the Spirit of God, hence the only right interpretation is what we all receive from the Spirit Himself, not what anyone thinks about it. And the Spirit is not of confusion (1Cor13:33) saying one thing to this and a conflicting thing to that.

1Cor 13:9: "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."

Yes. If we receive it from the Spirit, it is 100% correct and will never change in future, yet not the 100% of the knowledge of God. Knowing from a part does not mean we can all have our conflicting pieces. It only means the Spirit gives us one at a time, pieces of unconflicting, immutable knowledge. And if we all receive from the Spirit, all our pieces will fit well together and yet be just a portion of the whole knowledge of God.

No one / and no denomination is a custodian of scripture interpretation!

If you follow your words, you'll start depending on the Holy Spirit, the only Custodian of scripture interpretation and no more on your intellect. And about denominations, wanna know a secret? The reason we have ALL denominations is because either men stopped taking some of God's word as true/unchanging or they interpreted His words only with their intellect without His Spirit leading to needless arguments/divisions, two things I hope you're never going to be guilty of. If we all depend on Him, we will all be united like the apostles who did so and will have only one denomination, Church built on the rock, the church of Sion.(Mt16:18, Heb12:22)
Please let's end it here. I see no other point being made. God bless you.

Sinning willfully can only be correctly defined in the context of the text.
Also consider how drastic it is that Paul says there is no sacrifice remaining for such a sin and hence no forgiveness except fearful judgement(Heb10:26-27).
Actually, contrary to his aim, @OP picked a text that contravenes eternal security.
So first off, who was Paul referring to? Paul was certainly referring to those who were believers already but we're pressured to abandon faith by persecution from neighbouring Jews, as shown in the preceding verse
Hebrews 10:25[25]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

The succeeding verses also confirm he referred to believers, the only people who could ever have been sanctified by the blood of the Son.
Hebrews 10:29[29]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has rejected with disdain the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

So what exactly is the willful sin? It is not just any sin a believer commits, of course. It is only the sin of apostasy- an outright turning back on faith in the Lord that one once held(which faith is the only means of salvation) i.e. when the believer no longer wants Jesus as his Lord. We also see that this apostasy called "insulting the Spirit of grace" in Heb10:29 was what the Lord called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which can never be forgiven:
Luke 12:10[10]And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man(unbelievers), it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemes the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven

This sin is also what John calls the "sin unto [eternal]death" which when a brother commits, there is no room for forgiveness, hence no recommendation to pray for such(1Jn5:16). It leads instantly to (eternal)death(1Jn5:16). Every other sin doesn't instantly lead to eternal death(1Jn5:17) but can lead to the delusion of committing this sin if allowed to harden the heart, by continuing in them(Heb3:13)
1Jn 5:16-17 KJV 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Not every believer qualifies to commit this sin but only one who has passed through all stages of spiritual development mentioned in Heb6:4-6 which can be summarised as having made Jesus Lord first and then having been baptized into the Holy Spirit with the evidence of spiritual gifts of power/anointing.
Heb 6:4-6 KJV 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and became sharers of the Holy Spirit, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is however very rare for a true believer to commit such a sin.

It is noteworthy that the impossibility of redeeming such believers is not because God's mercy can ever be exhausted but because sin automatically hardens the conscience hence a believer who continues in sin to a certain point becomes totally hardened in heart and deceived by sin(Heb3:13) such that he himself no more wants to retain faith in the Lord for security of his soul. Which faith alone is the only basis to enjoy God's provision of salvation.
Hence the unforgivable sin is apostasy a.k.a. blasphemy(insult) of the Holy Spirit a.k.a. sin unto [eternal]death a.k.a. willful sin.

shadeyinka:
1Cor 7:1, 6-7
"Now concerning the things whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman...But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But every man has his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."
1Cor 7:12:
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother has a wife that believes not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away."
1Cor 7:25:
"Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that has obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.".

Except you don't want to, it's very easy to see that Paul clearly intends that you do not take his word as scripture but only as a trustworthy advice. Again and again, he qualifies it so you don't see it as binding. Don't You know how to filter through the bible for man's suggestions and God's ever authoritative words. His suggestions are on a totally different level from clear revelation he received from the Lord to give the churches(this is what is called scripture. 2Tim3:16, 2Pet1:21). Learn the difference between principles, laws, doctrines(all unchanging scripture) and advice/directives of men.

there is no iota of advantage in flogging the issue.

You have already overflogged this issue though you think it's a light thing but this is in fact a major cause of sin and you're in exactly the same position Eve was in before her fall and if you don't repent of this, a fall is imminent and only a timebomb. I wish not! You dont realise that such posture of heart will prepare you to compromise in suited situations. You continuously, blatantly exhibit such great pride of trivializing and countering God's word in (Lk5:18, Num23:19, Ps 89:34), not even seeming to care and are in danger already of (Mt5:19) but the Lord wouldn't even have us leave the least of the law.(Mt23:23). I have given you a key however, to take them in their spiritual context but you only seem to wish to put the Most High on the same level with a man like you and with such mind will surely not be found faithful through the trials of Satan. I warn again, if it means anything, but without disregard to your freewill, know that God's laws and principles are immutable

I do not challenge Paul's word. All of us are prone to interpreting the word of God according to our contemporary culture. But the key thing to note is that the bible is a guide not a book of rules.

No sir. We can all challenge Pauls words(better still take them up with the Spirit), else he would have made them authoritative, not indicating they weren't the Lord's commandments but God's laws/doctrine in scripture are unbreakable, immutable and eternal. The law of Moses is not just a guide nor the words of our Lord Jesus nor the prophecies nor any of the revelation of doctrine to the apostles. And no mature believer, not to mention the apostle Paul, or any other apostle, should interpret them through contemporary culture or any other lens than the Holy Spirit.
I'll leave it at this because I think my point is clear enough for whoever cares to count God faithful and not fickle as men. Solite3's response has also done enough for you.

shadeyinka:
I wish the scriptures could be taken as literal up to puntuations but I don't think it's the way God wants us to read and comprehend the scriptures.
...
The above scriptures just show the varying shade of authority behind the logos. Unfortunately too, if we as Christians go with this, we'll have a chaos. A proper balance of interpretation must be adhered to at all time.

Actually, you need to see clearly for yourself that Paul did not intend for his personal bias/wishes to form scripture that's why he made the qualifications between his word(subjective) and the Lord's command(the unchanging scripture).

Compare
Lev 21:14: "A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife."
With
Hos 1:2: "The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take to you a wife of prostitutions and children of prostitutions: for the land has committed great prostitution, departing from the LORD."

Not a good point. The requirement solely for the high priest (Lev21:10) is not to be applied to an ordinary prophet, who isn't even a Levite.
Again I say, the laws of God cannot change else the laws of the universe can. To think otherwise is to question God's integrity and doubt the very words of the Lord (Mt5:18) emphasising up to jots and tittles and will lead us to the error of Mt5:19. But they are to be taken in their spiritual context for their fulfilling to every (spiritual)punctuation, not our natural context because"As the heavens are higher than the earth...so His ways and thoughts than ours"(Is55:9) and only the Spirit builds the bridge.(1Cor2:11). So depend on His illumination, not blurred intellect.

God will not normally violate the logos especially when it concerns rules about SIN, but it isn't impossible.

God will NEVER, EVER violate His word like men may(Num23:19, Ps89:34), but we, like the pharisees can think it's violation, only because we never knew what He actually had in mind, by the Spirit. We may be expecting a military General to come save Israel from the Romans with a physical kingdom when in fact God intends to come as a lamb to establish a spiritual kingdom or if we're not careful, we might be expecting He make good His promise to Abraham by turning us into literal stars or sand granules. This is always the case when it seems there is a violation. Hence as I said earlier, we must seek the help of the Spirit when dealing with scriptures.


This is also why you have a challenge with Paul's words in 1Cor14:35, but you wouldn't have if you saw in v34"...As also says the Law" and the law is always the basis of such injunctions Paul gave(Also in 1Cor11, which is based on the law of a woman shaving her head when no more under her husband and covering her head once under a man). Now slow down and read Paul's letters/acts and you would find him fighting tooth and toenail with anyone who tried to impose the traditional/literal/natural applications of the law as enemies of Christ's cross and dogs(Php3:2,18) and never bringing such a yoke on the churches(Gal3:10). So tell me, why would you think Paul would hypocritically put a literal/traditional application of the law stated in v34 on the churches. Because you missed Paul's ideology of the application of the law only in its spiritual context(Rom7:14) and never again in its traditional/literal. That's why he would say no more literal curcumcision(Gal5:2-4) but again present a spiritual circumcision(Rom2:28-29, Php3:3) and he would apply the law of the ox not for a literal ox but for the spiritual ox, he ministers of God (1Cor9:7-9). Also in these contentious injunctions, they are referred to the spiritual Man and spiritual Woman in the context of proper ministerial order (which was well taught orally in the churches, hence they clearly understood what was meant, never taking it literally, unlike we do, who weren't in the classes) here in prophecy and in 1Tim2 in doctrinal teaching. Don't also forget what I told you about 2 or 3 witnesses. No one ever brought gender-specific instructions for the administration of gifts because it didn't ever exist and Paul, himself makes mention of eminent Apostle Junia too(who by office must have had churches under her oversight).

Cc:MuttleyLaff

JMAN05:
It is true that Paul quoted Psalms 68:18. The gifts apparently referring to the men captured in the conquest of the promise Land.

No sir. That's a huge distortion. The gifts do not refer to those captured in the conquest of the promised land, or was Paul or Peter a captive? They refer to humanity in multiplicity that were held captive by captivity(Death and Sheol/Hades). It chronicles how salvation was brought to humanity through gifts afforded by the Lord's ascension from Sheol.

I agree that anthropos could refer to humanity. In some cases this happens to be the case. However, this is not always the meaning of anthropos. For eg Matt 8:9, 9:6, 9:9, 9:33 and Eph 5:33, to mention a few, all have anthropos, but the reference is not to humans as a whole, but the male folk.

No sir. It is always used to refer to humanity generally without gender bias. Understand anthropos to be used as a "person" or "somebody" or a "human" or as a parallel for "Adam". Every text you used here actually shows that. For instance the Lord was called the son of "Humanity", showing he represented the human race, not males only. Also, and for this cause "Adam"(as quoted from OT) will leave father and mother .... .
And don't even bother with finding any exceptions because even if you do, it will not apply to Eph 4:8-11.

I believe that Eph 4:8,11 is referring to the men who take the lead in the congregation. Verses 12-13 lends credence to that view.

You believe this because it sits well with your tradition, but you actually have no basis for this. Paul clearly established his scope in v4-7. Notice it is one body (male and female included), and one Father of ALL(not gender-specific), and to each one of us(no gender) is the grace given, not according to gender, no, but Paul clearly shows, according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

shadeyinka:
It seemed you copied someone's quote and pasted it as mine.

I don't understand. I believe you said this

The question really is, : if a woman is heading a ministry (Joyce Meyer), is she under the permissive will of God?

To which I answered this

If God called her to pastor, she is in the 'perfectest' will of God and has nothing at all in all of scripture against her position.

And you then replied this.

That would be a violation of the logos.
We can try to reinterprete the word if we are not okay with it but it doesn't change what was written.
I believe Christians should be careful of normalizing aberrations and exceptions.

Which I interpreted to mean you believe I'm violating the logos text 1Tim2, that the woman is a literal woman, though I claim she is a figurative/spiritual woman.
So I asked you to answer this question I've asked Solite and others to answer to help you see its a spiritual woman, shown below.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women

Try to slowly think though and answer these questions and you may see my point.

We fail as Christians to understand that the scriptures isn't Gods literal words even though they came by God's inspiration. The Bible isn't a book of dos and don'ts but a CHRONICLE of God's dealings with man and the consequences and guidance for living in harmony with God. Apart from outright sin, iniquities and transgression, the scriptures is not dogmatic: as humans, what we have done is simply embellishing the words with our traditions.

Well, I get where youre coming from but really the scripture must be taken as God's LITERAL words with every jot and tittle to have its fulfilling(Mt5:18). However, we must depend on the Holy Spirit to help us know what God really meant in His mind(1Cor2:10-11), else we muddy His word with our blurred lenses, like the Pharisees. Again, while God's methods/modes of operation can be changed, His principles, also captured in Doctrine are very dogmatic and rigid, tied to His unchanging nature.

God desires a people who will honour Him with their whole being and not religious observers

Very true but again false doctrines can shortchange you from maximal expression of worship to God. And the end of doctrine is Christlike love in the mode of selflessness. Any teaching of doctrine that does not lead to this is futile and some, desiring to be teachers of what the Spirit never taught them have reached to false doctrines(1Tim1:6-7) and vain janglings, through their imperfect lens of intellect, like that on this thread, subjugating women from their full expression in Christ. Else why did no other apostle teach subjugation of women in ministry, if it was really the will of God. By the mouth of 2 or 3, the matter will be established.

Bodydialect57:
Could you check your mail, please?

Ok. Replied.

Bodydialect57:
"Picture the fact that the wheat competing for survival against the tares in the field will have to pull on every fibre within them making them stronger and more developed.
So the tares will grow until the King Tare(the antichrist) shows up with a government of maximum sin promotion and injustice of tribulation against believers, before the Lord's return. Of course the believer mustn't wait for the Beast, he can begin to learn Christ within by true prayer, not the religious kind done in most centres today, but a true kind focused on finding Christ within Him, helped by the Holy Spirit, in stillness(not noise) practised in patient perseverance as well as bearing his cross, the fiery trials God allows Satan bring in his life, still towards learning to depend on Christ within"
- FinallyDead.

There's no helplessness for the wheat growing in the midst of tares. Shoot out your roots in prayer to God by the Holy Spirit to garner strength to stand having done all. Ephesians 6:13.

Well said dear. Let us not fear the darkness around for greater is He that is in you than the evil in the world.(1Jn4:4, Jn17:15-17, Is 60:2). We only need to search deep within till we learn how to find Him.

Bodydialect57:
"Picture the fact that the wheat competing for survival against the tares in the field will have to pull on every fibre within them making them stronger and more developed.
So the tares will grow until the King Tare(the antichrist) shows up with a government of maximum sin promotion and injustice of tribulation against believers, before the Lord's return. Of course the believer mustn't wait for the Beast, he can begin to learn Christ within by true prayer, not the religious kind done in most centres today, but a true kind focused on finding Christ within Him, helped by the Holy Spirit, in stillness(not noise) practised in patient perseverance as well as bearing his cross, the fiery trials God allows Satan bring in his life, still towards learning to depend on Christ within"
- FinallyDead.

There's no helplessness for the wheat growing in the midst of tares. Shoot out your roots in prayer to God by the Holy Spirit to garner strength to stand having done all. Ephesians 6:13.

Well said. Let us not fear the darkness around for greater is He that is in you than the evil in the world.(1Jn4:4, Jn17:15-17, Is 60:2). We only need to search deep within till we learn how to find Him.

BlueAngel444:
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You can accuse people like the devil but the deception and your errors are obvious.

You statements contradicts those of God in scripture and those who agree with him, if my error is in not agreeing with your nonsense that fine by me.

solite3:
you are confused

For the record, lest some are misled by your allegations.
Let's begin from your error to lead you to truth. If you believe the seed of the woman was our Lord Jesus, and if Deborah(whom MuttleyLaff brought up), judged Israel in the presence of capable men, and decided final verdicts and governed the land(for solite sake, she was neither married nor had a child) even before our Lord came, why now after His coming, and her salvation will a woman not be free to lead men, if she has the grace from God, or has her salvation brought her losses. Dont you know that the authority of a pastoral or teaching gift is far less than a judge who doesn't only guide but makes decisions for the land. Do you see how you will only keep yourself in confusion.
Can you state one place where I have contradicted scripture. Our Lord Jesus Christ is forever the only true God manifested in the flesh, who is now in glory. If you believe so, then you should agree with scripture that He is the seed of God. God is not the seed of the woman. Even when God sowed his seed into a virgin, he only needed her womb so He could come as flesh and blood but He was never Mary's seed. No earthly woman even has seed. But God has His seed and planted it in Mary. That is why He never called Mary his mother(Mt12:48) but always called God His Father.
Knowing no earthly woman has seed, not even Mary, who only bore God's seed in her womb, how then does God say the seed of the woman will conquer the serpent's seed. What sort of a woman is 'the woman' here. Again, consider that Paul put this childbirth of the woman in the future even after God was manifested in the flesh, saying "she WILL BE saved..."(1Tim2:15). There is therefore still a childbirth to come which is the seed of the woman, which will conquer the serpents seed, which is her salvation. This is therefore no natural woman but the Spiritual woman. Again, the way into this childbirth is not through any man but through the apparel Paul suggested, sobriety(seriousness)...love, Faith, holiness.(1Tim2:15), as well as reverence(shamefacedness), good works(1Tim2:9-10), so now you see why he brought up the spiritual dresscode. Nothing here was literal
The mystery of the Spiritual womanhood and Manhood spoken of in Paul's epistles is a great mystery, he himself said(Eph5:32), so please keep off that territory till you are taught by the Spirit and stop applying this figure you are ignorant of to our natural ladies, spreading doctrine of demons.

Stop claiming strange spiritual mysteries when you don't even understand simple scripture.

The one I think is claiming is you. You should stop claiming to understand what Paul said after you've been shown your incoherence.

solite3:
the issue is not about gifts but about female leadership in the church, not everyone with a spiritual gift is qualified to be a pastor. Paul stated the requirement to be a pastor. A female may have the gift of teaching or a prophetic gift, It doesnt make them to be pastors.
.
paul was not speaking in proverb.

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I have explained this verse before, paul did not say a woman would be saved by childbearing but in childbearing, he did not say that it is child bearing that saves a woman but rather in child bearing process she would be saved. To be saved means to be delivered,
One could be saved from anything, one could be saved from sickness, death, attacks and so on. Because you see what paul said as parable that is why you can not understand it. The key to understand what the woman is saved from is in the book of Genesis. God pronounces birth pain upon the woman and the fact that the woman's desire will always be to her husband. This only applies to a married woman because only a married woman has a husband. It means a woman could find comfort and succour in her child after she has pass through the pain of child birth. She would be satisfied after she has seen her fruit which is the child.

BlueAngel444:
I answered u before, I will repeat the verse again

Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls’ salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

I believe someone tried to point that to you but you ignored it.

It's not figurative, where is the figure of speech in that statement.

I understand this verse

And to you it might be trying to explain calculus to a person who doesn't even understand bodmas not to talk of algebra.

But its simple and straightforward.

Genesis God spoke about bearing that one child Jesus

Paul mentioned Eve that should have given you a hint to what the childbearing was all about.

Solite, The more you keep trying to answer me, the more you'll keep shifting goalposts. From saying the woman is saved from controlling tendency to now saying she is saved from her desire for her husband. So you still didnt answer in light of the unsaved who give birth or the barren/celibate sisters. Also about how Paul delegates prayer to the Spiritual man and apparel to the spiritual woman. All these would have helped you see your fumbling. See how your answer also directly contradicts BlueAngel444. BlueAngel says it's divine birth, which is even closer, than yours.
Let me help you both see something back in the story of Eve.
The salvation through childbirth that Eve was promised was that her seed would conquer the serpents seed. Take note that no woman on earth has ever or will ever have seed. Only a man has seed. This is also why BlueAngel444 got it wrong. The Lord Jesus can't be the seed because He was never the seed of a woman but the seed of God in the woman. However, his birth was the only birth that would lead to the reality of this expected seed. Satan's seed is inside all mankind too, male and female and there is no woman who ever gave birth or ever will to a conqueror of Satan's seed which is in all humanity.
Again notice that Paul did not put the salvation of Eve in the past birth of Jesus Christ or any previous childbirth even in the church age. He puts it in the future as a future event.
Again notice, the woman's salvation would be initiated ONLY IF she continues to wear the modest apparel he had suggested...sobriety (seriousness) as well as the garments of love, Faith and holiness. it's not just any pregnancy through a man that will do it.
Let me also give you more insight or it may add to the twist, depending. Back to Ps 68:11-12. Do you know that it was a woman again, who dwelt in the house that divided the spoil (which is an event that only takes place on the battlefield by those who fought the war). Those who know the mystery of manhood and womanhood will already see how all scripture fits seamlessly from this. But alas, Paul says it is a great mystery (Eph5:32) (something BlueAngel seems to at least be agreeing with Paul in, even in his error, calling it calculus, lol. If only he knew its deeper than that) and here you all are trying to handle something so deep without the help of the Spirit, no wonder all this mess you're making.
I'll leave it here for now and come back later to add. But chew on this in the mean time.

BlueAngel444:
This still doesn't mean a WOMAN can be A PASTOR

which is the point of the thread.

Can a woman preach, be an evangelist, spread the gospel ofcourse

But can she head in the church NO

Maybe God is sexist as well abi

And all the priests that served where male... Why was that

Hope you know that is also a list of offices that includes HELPS as well


SO CAN'T GOD SAY NO, GO NO FURTHER, IN THE ACCEPT DON'T DO THIS.


IT IS CLEARLY STATED AND REPEATED IN SCRIPTURE WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE THIS

but you all will leave what is obvious and start searching for what isn't. The Pharisee mentality

BlueAngel you're back on my mention, welcome. is it you who will save Solite from this

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women.

If you can answer this correctly, we'll say it's not figurative, otherwise it's figurative.

CaveAdullam:
That was a finishing touch especially with that Psalms 68:18. I think the argument is Finallydead except solite3 gives an answer to that question.

Wow. I think I owe you a return pun for that.

MuttleyLaff:
I saw what you did there
Yeah, its indeed FinallyDead
I lurved your pun there and enjoyed the wordplay, lol

"⁴ Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.
⁵ She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.
⁶ She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him,
“Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you,
‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. "
- Judges 4:4-6

We had women prophets in the Old Testament who authoritatively exercised their spiritual gift and men didnt complain about it. In Judges 4:4-6 above, Barak, the general in the Israelite army, respected Deborah and unquestionably followed her orders. Deborah didnt abuse her position/office and so Israel prospered under her leadership.

As if they skipped this part of scripture that God put on purpose for their likes

MuttleyLaff:
God bless you real good FinallyDead, for being an admirably ardent stickler for the ethos of 2 Timothy 2:15 but my brother JMAN05 here, whom I have the utmost respect and regards for, has decided to interpret the greek word "anthropos" from where we have the English word "anthropology" (i.e. the scientific study of humans, human behavior and societies in the past and present) to mean and/or to be something exclusively about males and/or men only, lol

I just love how our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles (e.g. Peter, Paul etcetera) usually backtrack, go down into scripture (i.e. the Old Testament) and then, either verbatim quote from them or paraphrase them. They demonstrate that the New Testament indeed, is in the Old Testament concealed, and so therefore go about revealing the Old Testament in the New Testament. Praise the Lord Alleluia. God is Good jor.

God bless you too sir.

shadeyinka:
That would be a violation of the logos.

We can try to reinterprete the word if we are not okay with it but it doesn't change what was written.

I believe Christians should be careful of normalizing aberrations and exceptions.

The real problem we should be wary of is interpreting the written scripture without the help of the Spirit. That is how we have reinterpreted scripture from what He really meant and take our reinterpretations as true interpretations, normalising our self-made falsehoods and aberrations, then going on to call valid critiques aberrations. If we are unable to drop traditions of men when they are clearly shown to be inconsistent, then we do not really seek truth, but prefer traditions to truth. If you still don't know that 1Tim2 is figurative, then do the simple honours of answering this question for Solite.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women.

If you cannot answer this question directly but still wish to believe what you've always believed, then it will be obvious if truth really matters to you.

MuttleyLaff:
I am going to leave your comment like it is, and let others come to correct you and it or let you yourself, come to correct yourself about what "men" in Greek indeed and truly means, lol. Jokingly speak, maybe, if it was a woman who wrote that, perhaps, its "women' in place of "men" we would have seen and be reading, lol.

BlueAngel444:
what did he twist

JMAN05:
Verse 8 says he gave gifts unto men". The interlinear, word for word says "gave gifts to the men".

Bodydialect57:
Aimee Semple MacPherson, a woman, the founder and first General Overseer of Foursquare Gospel church comes to mind here.

This is to clarify Eph 4:8-11. Eph 4:8-11 is a quotation of Paul from Ps 68:18, and Paul never tried to change a single word of it. The actual interpretation of both the Hebrew and Greek texts correctly reads "...gave gifts of men...". In other words, the gifts he gave were those of the human race that were apostles, prophets.... You can confirm this on every possible bible exposition too. In the Hebrew, the word used for men is "Adam", a Hebrew word always used to represent mankind, humanity or the Adamic race in General or multiplicity. It is never used gender-specifically, as there are gender specific words for humans in hebrew, 'ish' (male), 'ishaw' (female). In the Greek as well the word for men is 'anthropos', which also refers to humanity in General or multiplicity, also distinct from the Greek words for male(aner) and female(guner)
Again I see no need for those standing on the other side to continue this argument until they can answer my teaser that solite ran away from, with a bolt, when he saw the light.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(as if we men don't and which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women

.
As a matter of fact, I believe all my replies on this thread to Solite have only proven without doubt that he misunderstood the proverb Paul used, taking it literally, thereby arriving at this doctrine of demons.

shadeyinka:
Of course such a church cannot be an ideal church. It's a church that is not yet qualified to appoint elders/deacons where all but the woman in question is a baby in the Lord.

This may occur only in the remote village without a single church presence.

The question really is, : if a woman is heading a ministry (Joyce Meyer), is she under the permissive will of God?

If God called her to pastor, she is in the 'perfectest' will of God and has nothing at all in all of scripture against her position.

Bodydialect57:
He must also be careful to distinguish his God-given cross from Satan's unchecked wickedness against all good, lest he suffer unnecessarily.

How do l mark out this difference?

Good. There's some maturity needed for that, but before you develop that just start by simply determining to not accept any evil that comes your way by praying it through with God. God may act sooner or later. But make sure you only act on what God CLEARLY says to you(not assumption or men's words), because demons in their craftiness will like to make you believe their device is God's will for your life so that you don't resist them.

Bodydialect57:
Finding Christ within. Can you please buttress further sir?

Your post is opening my eyes to some things l didn't really know before.

God bless you.

God bless you too sir/ma (please help me identify which). I forgot to add Gal3:24 to my initial post but I've done so. In addition, in Lk 17:20-21, the Lord teaches that His plan is to first bring about the kingdom of God inside us before it manifests outside us. Also God wants to clean us from within through our discovering Christ within us(Mt 23:25-26, Lk11:39-40), hence He was not satisfied to relate with us one on one from outside as Jesus Christ but died just so He can gain access to our inside.
Have you ever heard the saying 'let sleeping dogs lie'. By default human nature, we really don't observe to see our many evil tendencies or often make excuses for them, hence letting sleeping dogs lie. If there's a war between flesh and spirit going on inside us, this will favour the flesh. Because, it survives in secrecy but only when its exposed, is there a possibility of the life of spirit swallowing up the death in our flesh. This is also why God gave the law (Rom 7:12-13). In addition to the law, being put in an environment of tares(pressure) makes us discover our own lusts that still dwell in us, hence (Jn17:15), not so we can accept them, but so we can identify them and pray for grace to eliminate them from inside us, preparing us for Lord's coming(1Jn3:2-3). So now you know why some, who do not prepare themselves on time must pass through the great tribulation(pressure in Greek) before the Lord's return. But we can prepare ourselves as the wise virgins on time by winning this war over the flesh on time.
About seeking Christ within, this is an art that must be learnt but too much to share such on a public forum. However, if you just begin to identify and bring each and every inner weakness before God for grace to overcome, you have at least begun your journey. (Is 1:18, 1Jn 1:8-9).

solite3:
what were the erroneous teachings of paul name one.

None. Not a sinle thing Paul taught was errorneous and you know well I've never said so. You however are unlearned in his wisdom because you depend on your intellect to understand what he received by the Spirit (Gal1:11-12) and the intellectual cannot receive the spiritual which is spiritually discerned(1Cor2:14-15), though you are trying to discern them intellectually but he speaks the wisdom of God in a mystery. (1Cor2:6-7). Humble yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of Paul's writings else keep twisting them with mere intellect. (Jn14:26)

Paul's used the fact that Adam was created first to emphasize why women should not pastor a church, He was speaking clearly without any parable.

Its obvious youre running from the truth my question brings out. Stop running away from this question else stop quoting me. Im not interested in arguing with you, if you cant prove me wrong that it was figurative by answering well, then it was figurative. If it wasn't figurative in 1Tim2, answer this.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(like we men don't. which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women. So that prayer is now gender specific?

You brought out your tales of parables, Jesus is known for using parables to teach not the apostles. Paul never taught with parable neither did peter, so where does this your tales of parables come from? Obviously to avoid the truth.

Galatians 4:24-26
[24]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

2 Peter 2:22
[22]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Please note an allegory is a figure of speech. Most of the OT stories, though real serve as allegories including Adam and Eve.

*MODIFIED*

Bodydialect57:
Born again believers live in the world but are not of the world.

How does 'wheat' coexist successfully with 'tares' without their negative influences robbing off?

influence robbing off

Thank you for your invitation sir/ma. It's a good question you've asked there. We will need to first understand the will of God in Christ to satisfy your inquiry. Man was designed chiefly to relate with God from within Him ultimately(Col 1:27,1Jn4:4, Jer31:33-34). But this being a very artful and skilful capacity was subjected first to learn under tutors, that is the law of God, both in scripture and in nature(Gal3:24), then when fully mastered in these, to proceed to learn about God from within, all attainable here on earth. We are by default satisfied and prone to manage an external relationship with God from maybe just bible study, fellowship with brothers, listening to teachings, which are all good in their proper place, if serving to lead us into Gods ultimate will(stated above) but otherwise unsatisfactory to God. So in order to depend on Christ within us, we will have to be put under pressure to somehow be forced to.
This brings us to your question, the purpose of the tares. The tares, the seed of Satan, by nature promoting sin, evil and injustice will frustrate the good desires in the believer for righteousness, even suffocating them, adding fuel to the fire of fleshly tendencies mounted against the spirit nature inside the believer. They will fill the outside world with all evil hence awakening inside the believer fleshly essences yet to be dealt with and forcing him to turn to the greater One within Him for help in true prayer(1Jn4:4) for overcoming grace hence Rom5:20 plays out. Had the tares been plucked before then, the believer would still have lodged within him, a lot of unexposed fleshly lusts and tendencies thereby not aware to deal with the subtle, well-hidden fleshly tendencies, so remaining in this duality of contrasting tendencies and prolonging the war between flesh and spirit(Gal5:17) and not reaching his highest spiritual development in God/holiest faith (Jud:20). In this state he stays unprepared for the coming of the Lord, which requires spirit nature perfectly annihilating flesh resulting in stainless righteousness(Eph5:27). This is an eternal loss to the believer, preventing him attaining God's best on earth and eternity.
Picture the fact that the wheat competing for survival against the tares in the field will have to pull on every fibre within them making them stronger and more developed. A miniature example is found in cases like in M/E Islamic nations where Christian fellowships and access to bibles are prohibited. Notice that the believers in those settings are always greater in spirituality than we in less tense regions, because they've been forced to turn inwards to the greater One within them, practicalizing Rom12:21. Also imagine having an obnoxious partner at work, who is so annoying and always provoking you to anger, making it difficult to love as Christ prescribed or forgive when necessary(Mt5:44, Col3:13). His character will help you see the hidden anger and unchristlike resistance still dwelling within you which upon such exposure can then be brought before the throne of grace for elimination(Heb4:16).
So the tares will grow until the King Tare(the antichrist) shows up with a government of maximum sin promotion and injustice of tribulation against believers, before the Lord's return. Of course the believer mustn't wait for the Beast, he can begin to learn Christ within by true prayer, not the religious kind done in most centres today, but a true kind focused on finding Christ within Him, helped by the Holy Spirit, in stillness(not noise) practised in patient perseverance as well as bearing his cross, the fiery trials God allows Satan bring in his life, still towards learning to depend on Christ within. He must also be careful to distinguish his God-given cross from Satan's unchecked wickedness against all good, lest he suffer unnecessarily.
Feel free to ask questions.

Bacteriologist:
Let's discuss this "Faith" thing. Faith is like the single most important thing in religion and theism in general.

It is safe to say that the basis of theism is faith.

I hear Christians for example, talk about faith a lot and they say that once you have Faith a lot of things especially in the Bible begins to make sense.

Same thing with Muslims. "Faith" in Allah makes you believe that Islam is the true religion.

But my main point is this why would faith be required to know the truth?

A lot of things we recognise as facts and truths today do not require any sort of faith whatsoever.

Does anyone need faith to know that 1 + 1 = 2?

Is faith required to make an airplane glide in the air? Or a ship remain buoyant?

Does anyone need faith to know that water + clay makes mud?

Do you need faith to accept that whatever is thrown up gets pulled back down (except held up by an external force/obstacle?)

It looks like faith is needed only when believing something that cannot be demonstrated or shown to actually be true or exist.

And that is the greatest downfall of this thing called "faith." ANYONE can believe whatever they want and CLAIM it as true based on "Faith."

Christians even call it "evidence of things not seen." Then I can claim to have a dragon in my basement/backyard. And believe it on "faith."

Faith is a good way to believe in anything but is not a reliable way of determining the truth. And it is not enough to believe claims: especially those with heavy weight as god claims based on faith alone.

If you care about the truth, Faith is not enough.

What are your thoughts?

A truly intelligent being should not stake his conviction about God on what men claim. What if all the men who you listen to have got it wrong somewhere. Reality is not subjective. Every intelligent being has the capacity to determine reality for himself. You don't need faith to believe in God. God can be determined without faith. Faith is just the way you connect to and please him. But you only need sense to determine the reality of God. It's the height of hypocrisy for instance, when one learned in science says he doesn't believe in God. Then he really doesn't believe in science. How can we intelligently design robots and still doubt the existence of God. Look at all the intelligence it takes us to produce an intelligent lifeless system and will we assume all the uncountable species of intelligent creatures, we ourselves claiming to be most intelligent of them, just popped out of nothing or an unintelligent Cause. We would only be fooling ourselves and we're intelligent enough to know that. Or what is the first law of conservation of energy- that it cannot be created nor destroyed but only transformed. So we all know there is the uncreated Cause and if we were intelligent enough to know that, then this Cause must be intelligent. If we can communicate with each other, then God must know communication.

Again, will we say we're learned in Math and then not smart enough to know there is God. Tell me how many zeros you can add together to get one. A zillion wouldn't do it. So anything that exists could not have come from nothing. But in every number, one is the smallest indivisible whole unit. In 2 there's 1+1. and in 3, another one was added. So if anything exists, it came from One that first existed. If we're intelligent, lets act like it.

But if you will please God, you need faith. Faith is not what most people claim. It is not subjective reality. It is reality that every human can perceive and discern. It is not physical nor intellectual however, but in another dimension of man's being- His spirit. But this dimension is shut down in most men, which is why God as Jesus Christ came from that dimension into our earthly dimension to build the bridge to all men. Every man has a spirit and he can relate with it once life enters it (through the life of the Lord Jesus) just as much as he relates with the physical. When life enters into his spirit, he will gain consciousness in his spirit and just 'know' he is and is justified with God-spiritually, as a baby gains consciousness physically and just knows hunger, thirst, crying and all. Faith does not come from the practice of any religion, neither Christianity nor Judaism nor any other. Faith comes from God Himself. If you want faith then, begin to relate with God's words, only those that came from Him(found in the holy bible), read them over and over, mutter them to yourself, practise them to the best of your ability UNTIL they give birth to Faith inside of you. Religion stops at getting you to do similar acts as an end, thinking you're serving a God you can't really discern but this directive gets you to do same as a means to an end, which is faith, a reality that can be discerned when you get it, which itself is a beginning of a relationship with God, who will be really experienced from then on.

Riquelme01:
Thanks so much. Thumbs up

You're welcome sir. But are you the OP? Your monikers different. And why do you say thumbs up too.

There is a revelation the Lord has been forming in yours and your brother's life. As you grow in it, it will lead your brother into a divine realm/ place of assignment in the Lord, which there will be others the Lord will have brought into the same realm and you will join your brother in it too. In that place, you will both have access to much more revelations in God that will help you grow so much. But the danger is that you will begin to lose sight of the is initial revelation through which you were brought to this place because you let your hearts get carried away to other soulish/self interests. So be warned. Whatever the Lord is teaching you both now, don't lose it when you it opens the door to this new realm in God. Be careful about soulish desires and self interests that will soon show up in the new realm by fixing your hearts on the Lord and never compromising on the revelation He is teaching you now.

BlueAngel444:
Finallydead Paul never wrote that Junia was an apostle.

No? He actually wrote that she was eminent/spectacular/remarkable/noteworthy among apostles. She was no ordinary apostle but an eminent apostle. If you still don't believe go look up the meaning of that statement from the Greek texts and expositions.

The way you wrote 2 peter 3:16 is a classical example of how you add and twist God's word to fit your view of things.

You should have shown how and what I twisted?

U mean this 1Timothy 2:15
Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls’ salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

So if women continue in faith,God will save them through childbirth. Sorry for all those women, Paul advised to be virgin's(celibate) like he, if they can. No salvation for them thanks to Paul. Or even the barren ones. Very soon solite3 will be preaching that barren believing women will remain under Satans captivity except they get a miracle or yhat any woman who like Anna the prophetess devotes herself to the Lord's work in oath of celibacy will have to get married and give birth to be saved from Satan. Now, please let's move on to something else.

What you didn't think people actually don't read the bible do you

I'm not really seeing the basis of your accusations. Come plainly and show me what I'm doing.

Anyway whether you paint it as women being symbolic or not, God commands women to be submissive to their husbands, their fathers etc.

Just as God commands men to submit to Him.

The figurative statements don't contradict direct commands.

A woman's submissiveness to her husband as a spiritual symbol and message to the world. So are you arguing that women shouldn't submit to their husbands, that women should be Bishops (pastors and teachers) husbands of one wife.

Even male kids should submit to their fathers and mothers and all wives should submit to their husband's at home. It should never stop them from using the grace of God in their lives in any capacity. In 1Tim2, however, Paul was never speaking of the family but church administration and doctrinal order. If God gives a wife grace like Aimee McPherson, founder and G.O. of Foursquare gospel church, or Joyce Meyer etc. she should answer the call, then, when at home, she should submit to her husband.

Are you arguing that God who said men should be priests is wrong or was Jesus being bias when he said there's no sex in heaven

I don't see the point of these two questions. Are you saying women are not to be part of the royal priesthood (1Pet2:9) or what? Anyway, seems there's more hope for you though than solite3 if you are beginning to see that its a spiritual context in 1Tim2.

WinningEleven:
Give some time to ruminate on this sir

Ok. Questions are welcome. I also responded to your other thread on seeking advise for campus life.

1StopRudeness:
all these guys u are quoting are rigid and never entertain anyone's opinion... the explanation that women are controling and they will be saved by practical child birth is the must absurd thing I've ever heard from a person who claims he has understanding of God's word..
..there's no point arguing with them... wateva u say is wrong as long as u don't belong to their denomination.. they are the only ones with true application and interpretation of scripture and going to heaven ....its not really their fault anyways ....thats what they are told in their gatherings...

I know. I actually do this for the sake of the unsuspecting readers who could be marginalized by their damnable heresies. @the bolded, as in...at least Solite gave us all a good laugh today, maybe the only good thing he did in this thread. But until any of them can answer my question correctly, it should be obvious to every reader that they are ignorant of Paul's message, so I may actually be done here.

[quote author=solite3 post=85892948][/quote]

I want to ask you, where did paul's teaching came from?
Paul was surrounded by other apostles including Peter,James and John and all of them agreed to his teaching and jos calling so paul's teaching are scriptural if you dont agree with it throw your bible away.

Give up solite3 and stop trying to twist things. I have never doubted any single thing Paul wrote and you know it. It is your understanding of what Paul wrote that's absurd. If you learn my counsel of taking two or three witnesses for every doctrinal position, it will help you evade some of your erroneous teaching from Paul's letters. Even his mention of the 'Eminent' apostle Junia, which you have subtly avoided, should have helped you but no. Your problem is exactly as Peter spoke of concerning Paul's letters
2 Peter 3:16
[16]As also in all his(Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,(e.g. Spiritual manhood and womanhood) which they that are unlearned(you) and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
The deal is are you devoted to the truth and integrity of God's word or your traditions of men (what you've always been told about the word by men). It will be known in what you do when you see that your traditions are faulty. If you are faithful to God's word, you'll let go of your traditions and begin to seek for truth which is indisputable, of the word of God. Ive had to do this again and again, realising that my initial understanding of Gods word may be wrong, will you?. So here is your opportunity, solite3.

Secondly, you said paul was not speaking literally to women, so tell me how did you come about this?

How do you know the Lord Jesus was being figurative when he asked you to gouge out your right eye. He never even bothered to interpret it, so you should have only one eye by now. Also, the answer to your question is in your simple answer to my question. This time dont stoop so low fumbling with the obvious answer, and making everyone here laugh. If you can't show that its a literal woman saved by literal childbirth, no use mentioning me again. Here's the trick question again. Since BlueAngel444 is still patting you on the back, you could also ask him to help you.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(like we men don't. which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women. So that prayer is now gender specific?

So when paul taught that husband is the head of the wife it was figurative?

Christ is the head of the church as the(spiritual) Man is the head of the (spiritual) Woman, as also the physical man (husband) is the head of the physical woman (wife). It's then up to the context to tell you which Paul spoke of. You can't even see a context for family here. The only context is church administration and the learned in the subject know very well the meanings of the symbolisms here.

When he taught that women should dress moderately it was figurative?

Here in 1Tim2. It is totally figurative. I'm sure you missed it but the modest apparel the woman is to be dressed with is written right there...reverence/submission(shamefacedness) and seriousness....and good works. (1Tim2:9-10). You probably don't know that throughout scripture, our spiritual clothing has to do with character(Rev19:8, 3:2-4 also shows that perfect works parallel unstained garments, as well as all over the OT prophets).

Pls go and sleep

Maybe not sleep, but if that's your best cop-out after failing to recover your thread with a reasonable and doctrinally consitent answer to my trick question, not that shambles you did up there, I'll simply bow out now. My work seems done here.

Deleted