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LordReed:
Revelations 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

To all inquirers especially brothers, Rev12 is a battle yet to be fought. A wonderful model that shows the protocol of spiritual warfare and how men's state determines whether God or Satan will rule on earth and the ground on which Satan continues to dominate in the heavenlies.
And the key to victory here is in v11.

1.)What men did with the blood. Men appropriated the blood to cleanse them of all that isn't of Christ hence these men became perfect reflections of Christ on earth. Until we truly unleash the power in his blood, not by mere confession of lips, we will not attain to this perfection.
2.) the logic of witness/testimony: which logic is that they experientially applied to themselves the resurrection power of Jesus not in mere words but reality.
3.) The offering of their lives as living sacrifices to God: Which is that they attained this witness by following the same process of the Lord Jesus as advised in (Ph2:5-13, 3:10)

Until the church as a unit is ready to pay the price of these three, we may say and do whatever we wish and continue our denominational/sectarian recklessness but Satan will keep his throne in the heavenlies and will continue to have greater influence than God on earth in reality.

This does nothing to dispel the notion. How can a Christian say he has the power of the almighty god residing within him and still say the devil is warring in his soul and not only that, the devil can even win! This means your god and the devil's power are comparable meaning your god is not all powerful, maintaining the contradiction.

Dear brothers, it is for the same reason that men had all the laws of nature for harnessing for 5500 odd years but lived primitively because they never learned these laws but in learning them, it only took the past 400 years for us to revolutionise the earth with technology. When we believers finally humble ourselves to seek understanding of the laws of God, it will take us the shortest time to harness His omnipotence.
Btw, when we speak of God as all powerful, let it always be in the context that God cannot break the laws of His own existence and until those laws are engaged, He remains indeed powerless.
These are good questions and those helped by the Holy Spirit will benefit.

[quote author=Hiswordxray post=90405973][/quote]In other words, Christ Himself is all the law there is, putting an end to ceremonies and rites and the law is only fulfilled when He gains expression through our lives, in the sacrifice of our own selves for this.

[quote author=Hiswordxray post=89902904][/quote]This is a really great piece brother. Like I always say, God will invade all seven mountains and show the world His light in them but the apostles AND prophets as a pair, have to first lay down the foundations and download the blueprints from the different Heavenly Councils and that at a heavy cost and sacrifice before the whole church can rise to take their place

Again, in addition do you know that the church has actually been running on Paul's blueprint for the gentiles but now that the times of the gentiles is fulfilling, we would have to now run on the kingdom blueprint of the twelve apostles of the lamb else we can't take the 7 mountains.

LordReed:
This is one of the more inconsistent aspects of Christian theology, the idea that a fallen angel can stand up to the power of the almighty god. How can you insist that your god is all powerful and still believe a fallen angel can stop the work of your all powerful god?

LordReed:
Still doesn't make it any more reasonable or less contradictory. Christian theology accords the so called fallen angel the devil as much power as you do your god. I mean the devil took Jesus to a high place meaning he can transport another god or human being to a place of his own designation. This same devil can stop the holy spirit who you say is god from working.

Thank you for your prayers, even though I think they are merely wishes for my wellbeing, I appreciate the sentiment all the same.

A good question there Lordreed. It's unfortunate you seem to ask many practical and sound questions that are barely ever answered satisfactorily.
Brothers observe here the responsibility God has given to us in freewill.
In a direct face-off, of course Satan stands no chance. Knowing better, he hasn't even ever dared contrary to the popularly claimed tale that he attempted to fight God in heaven(not written anywhere in scripture).
But in the arena of freewill of the creature and the consequences attached, Satan's influence can override God's. It is on this ground only that Satan defies God.
Take your life for example, how many times have you had a hard time doing what you know is right by your judgement. All such times are indicators of the war b/w Satan and God in your soul and you'd then have to admit how great is Satan's influence.
Now by the law of the universe, light is greater than darkness because light only needs to show up for darkness to flee. So when we find the darkness having greater influence than light in our lives, God expects us to be honest and admit that we are yet to have His light shine in that area. Not that the darkness overcomes light in that area actually but that light is yet to shine.(1Jn1:5-8 ). Hardly though would Christians admit.
If they understand this, they'd be more humble and begin to pay the price for light to shine in them.
If only Christians would give up on mere bible tales as Christ will not be found in them but will seek the light(Jn5:39, Jn1:4), which is Christ, to shine within them. They would know God. I say this as a teacher of doctrine but I know the only good doctrine is that which leads men to seek Christ to shine more and more within them liberating them from their struggle with inner darkness rather than just learning more theories.

There are indeed Nephilim amongst us. Just like the Lord said "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the coming of the son of Man". It is a confirmed fact. Some high profile European dignitaries are among them especially in Germany, U.K., forming an army for the Beast.
The problem is you can never convince humans cos they look just like the average humans and the media is even controlled by them to persecute and label anyone as a conspiracy theorist who finds dirt about them.
Without the Lord opening one's eyes, they'd never be known. Perilous times we live in. It is time to take cover under the blood of the Holy Lamb and seek true righteousness which is our only protection.

Eviana:
Part 3

The spirit which actuated those priests and rulers is still manifested by many who make a high profession of piety. They refuse to examine the testimony of the Scriptures concerning the special truths for this time. They point to their own numbers, wealth, and popularity, and look with contempt upon the advocates of truth as few, poor, and unpopular, having a faith that separates them from the world.

Christ foresaw that the undue assumption of authority indulged by the scribes and Pharisees would not cease with the dispersion of the Jews. He had a prophetic view of the work of exalting human authority to rule the conscience, which has been so terrible a curse to the church in all ages. And His fearful denunciations of the scribes and Pharisees, and His warnings to the people not to follow these blind leaders, were placed on record as an admonition to future generations.

The Roman Church reserves to the clergy the right to interpret the Scriptures. On the ground that ecclesiastics alone are competent to explain God's word, it is withheld from the common people. [SEE APPENDIX NOTE FOR PAGE 340.] Though the Reformation gave the Scriptures to all, yet the selfsame principle which was maintained by Rome prevents multitudes in Protestant churches from searching the Bible for themselves. They are taught to accept its teachings as interpreted by the church; and there are thousands who dare receive nothing, however plainly revealed in Scripture, that is contrary to their creed or the established teaching of their church


To be continued....

Please don't mind if I add my little bit:

Well, it's a good point about making the scriptures a central authority in Christianity. This has been ignored by many believers today who rather believe the "man of God" than search the scriptures hence so much error rides freely in the mainstream assemblies.

But there's an even deeper cause of errors and this is prevalent even among the scholars of scripture. IF the scriptures were automatically self-interpreting, then we would have found the solution to deception in just studying the scripture.
However, the problem we have is that they aren't and are to be interpreted only by the Spirit(2Pet1:19-2) else we will be slain by the letter(2Cor3:6). By nature, NO ONE can interpret the scriptures apart from their own lenses. This is an eternal law. Your see through the lens of who you are hence(1Cor12:13, Tit1:15). We are all victims of this law, hence we must humbly surrender our confidence in our distorted Adamic intellect to be guided by the Spirit.
The Rabbis were the most learned in the law in the days of the Lord yet it was they that called Him a blasphemer when He showed up to fulfill prophecy and crucified Him because of who they were inside. Notice what He told them,
Joh 5:39 You search the scriptures; because in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify about me but you wouldn't come to me.

This is why even with so many having a go at the writ since the Protestant reformation, what we've continually had is denomination after another rising and this division from Satan is bound to be an ever-increasing trend unless and until we realize that we must all come through the Spirit Himself into knowledge. It's a deception to think we would do better than these Rabbis only because the Spirit dwells in us. Unless we humbly let Him manifest to us and take His place to teach us all things(Jn14:26,Jn16:13,1Cor2:10-14), we will oppose God in our very best understanding of scripture and still be caught in the deception of Satan.


So like I always say, the way into knowledge and out of deception isn't through mere exertion in study(which has its place after the Spirit (Ecc12:12-14) but through the search for the release of righteousness and perfection flowing out of our vessels from the Spirit given to us. As we seek this, He makes us purer and purer vessels and see clearer and clearer the knowledge of God(Mt6:33) until we see face to face.
In this there's no distortion, Satanic deception, division and denomination as the Holy Spirit within us will teach us all things(1Jn2:18-20, 27-28, 1Jn4:2-4) and bring us all into unity. No wonder the Lord and the apostles only preached the Spirit Himself as the authority in the Church for truth ( but alas today we would kill for the letter and are killed by it. If we grow in our relationship with the Spirit by His manifestations to us, He will protect us from the lethal deception about to be released on the whole earth.

Acehart:
I have answered this question before.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

May I list all the spiritual gifts; they are:

1. Word of wisdom.
2. Word of knowledge.
3. Faith.
4. Gifts of healings.
5. Miracles.
6. Prophecy.
7. Distinguishing between spirits.
8. Tongues.

All these work together as 1 Corinthians 12:12-15 says, right? Not one of them is head knowledge or learned. Would I be right to say, ‘if I pray in tongues, miracles would occur?’ When miracles occurred, was my mind fruitful or did my mind understand how it came to be? Surely, I may not understand that what Paul meant by “my spirit” was indeed “my spiritual gift”; but if I prophesied (Interpret), and unknowingly I started speaking in the native tongue, was my mind fruitful or perceive that I spoke in the native tongue? Therefore, whatever gift I manifest, whether gift of healings or word of wisdom, my mind is unfruitful because the mind works with memory and pattern of thought, and these gifts don’t need these activation nerves in my brain to bring them forth. However, whatever prayer or speech one makes and an Amen should be elicited, it must be done in intelligible language even if I need to heal to the man bound in an infirmity for 38 years.

Revelation 7:9-10:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Concerning John and his revelation, Revelation 7 would put into perspective what this spectator heard. The psalmist said: “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge” What language of the heavens and the sky did David learn? Definitely not Hebrew, but his “step-down transformer“ delivered the message to him in the language (voice) of his mind - Hebrew. John heard all the tribes and tongues of the earth say in unison, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb“. How did he understand Jukun tongue? How did he understand Calabari? He wouldn’t have understood if there wasn’t a translator or in the spirit, all languages are the same (no difference between angelic tongues and human languages). If there was a translator, it would be one who would translate in the language of his mind; and he had to switch on his step-down transformer so that he could translate to the tongues of the seven churches.

Fair answer @ the tongues of angels in heavenly proceedings that John heard. Now this should answer how Paul, King Saul and almost everyone else with such encounters must have heard.

But don't change Paul's context in 1Cor14, if you wanna see the whole fact. He was comparing two gifts in isolation, tongues( both with/without its partner, translation) and prophecy. Not the dynamics of all the different gifts working together. And the "spirit" doesn't mean spiritual gift, be careful to not mince words here. That's how errors fly. It means the intangible animate spirit of the prophesier(1Cor14:32)
So in that context, when the spirit of the speaker speaks this tongues(in isolation of other gifts, he meant). The only reason the understanding of the speaker is unfruitful is because the words were not human as also could not be understood by the congregation without translation.

Now if you go back to answering the two questions I asked Mutt up this page, and the sign of tongues I earlier spoke of, you should get it all clearly. But if you won't, then I'll wait till the Lord opens your eyes. These things are easier to understand when demonstrated practically by His Spirit rather than by words.

Acehart:
Hmmm. Life is complex o. How Paul changed from a natural born killer to a preacher is the eight wonder of world. What we know today and stand for, is changed in a thinking of an eye the next day; so rigidity isn’t a condition in “multiple degrees of freedom” problems.

Anyway, you said: “So also tongues is the speaking of your spirit in its own native divine language“. I want to imagine that the witch at Endor didn’t play a fast one on King Saul; what language did disembodied Samuel speak in again? I heard someone next door shout, “TONGUES!”

“If“ condition: Few hours ago, I tried to show that “angelic tongues” or “tongues of angels” was a mode (method) of prayer, praise and thanksgiving in Books that detailed how angels did their things in heaven and how many Jews craved for this model of prayers in the quest to communicate with God. (Today, we have many prayer books (Say-after-me books) that many people cherish above the scriptures, books that give orders to angels and nature, and also binds demons).

In my cricket exposition, I stated that as long as the object of discussion is “unknown” whether in known or unknown tongues, it doesn’t profit anyone apart from the person speaking. This was Paul’s emphasis of the non-evangelistic tongue practiced in c12:1-3 in contrast to the one that aid the ministers in the propagation of the gospel (c12:10-30). These angelic tongues books were in essence Say-after-me books; so as the angels spoke, this church wanted to do the same. Of course the books were written in human language. So, as against interpretation or prophecy concerning the mysteries of Christ, this church were interested in “non-scriptural prayers” alone. (Don’t we see that in many churches today?)

Paul’s main objective was this: “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified”. If the gift of tongues, whether angelic tongue or earthly tongue, doesn’t minister Christ’s atonement to both the saved and the unsaved, it should cease.

Cc: Myer

Acehart, just try answering my two previous questions. And while you're at it, try to ponder why the speaker's mind is unfruitful while his spirit is speaking(1Cor14:14). It'll really help you.
I'm guessing you think that in John's revelation, the angels he heard at the throne all spoke in native hebrew, right? But when english-speaking people today hear them, these angels suddenly switch to English, huh, Acey?
Try to think about that. Why do we all hear the proceedings IN HEAVEN in our native human language? Does it mean they keep switching from one human language to another in heaven?

Goshen360:
It looks like we might have to slow down and ask ourselves some questions in order to learn or unlearn....depending what angle we're looking at.

So the question I was asking myself is, what's exactly is this unknown tongues or language of angel.

2. What or why do I need to speak language of Angels for if I'm not praying or speaking to Angels?

3. I think there's a misconception or misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the word "unknown" in 1 cor 14v2.

4. I think MuttleyLaff explained it and I also did some extraction and insertion into the whole of 1 cor 14 and its clearer to me now....

5. I did my study insertion AND ALSO extract that word "unknown" and asked questions while studying and that made the whole 1 cor 14 clearer...You might want to do same.

Cc: hoopernikao

2.) The first thing we should ask is what language did angels speak before the creation of humans. Certainly not human language which came to be in this recent Adamic age. Does this mean we can't hear them in our own language? No. But it does mean after coming down to our level to communicate, they would return to their standard language in heaven in keeping with their nativity.
Now, understand that we have been made sharers in the Holy Spirit hence tasting(because it's only a small measure, more like an imperfect idea) of powers of the age to come(Heb6:5) or of the divine nature(2Pet1:4). Our spirits are the dimension of our being currently carrying this Divine Image/Character as his own nature while our souls retain our corrupt human nature(the flesh). Gal5:17
The concept of the gifts in 1Cor12 is that they are MANIFESTATIONS of the spirit(1Cor12:7), hence a physical expression of your spirit's nature- things that can never be done by your human nature. Everytime your spirit manifests, its like getting freedom from your flesh which is always in expression and subduing it. It's a victory/liberation for it.
The word of knowledge is like the hearing or seeing (if in visions) of your spirit. The word of wisdom similar but with the understanding hence also expressing it's brain power. Gifts of healing are the expression of divine power in your spirit, also resident in angels to restore creation. So also tongues is the speaking of your spirit in its own native divine language while translation of tongues and prophecy is going further than that to speak God's divine words, not in the spirit's native divine language but like we would hear angels, in our human language for others' sake, in the spirit of true love.
All these are a win for your spirit over the flesh.

3.)We seem to be back-pedalling. All these questions were already treated in my previous posts on here.
I said from the onset(https://www.nairaland.com/5860057/should-speak-tongues-right/4#89700832?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C9147324460), there's nothing like unknown tongues. It's either known to God(and angels) or men. The word unknown was added by the translators. But removing it wouldn't change any point I've already made on this thread.

4. I don't think Muttleylaff has explained anything that addresses the real problems on ground. What he clearly did though, like he's done to me in another thread, was evade two simple questions I asked that if answered will help clear up 1Cor14. I was then hoping Acehart would answer it when he also quoted me but well, he got stuck trying to pick whose soprano is better between MC and Satan, lol. Apart from cricket, they seem to be learning a lot from each other, lol. (Easy, easy, Mutt, that's with an "innocent" snarky chuckle, like from Muttley the dastardly dog o, to lighten up the atmosphere, lol)
These were the harmless questions.

You said so much while avoiding my clear questions.
1.) If were all gathered like as now in person, discussing this issue in fellowship in English. What does God gain in giving Acehart a Korean tongue if no one here including Ace understands it. Couldn't He have received the prayer/praise in Acehart's native(English) language. Why change from native to Korean if none understands Korean.
2.) If at least any e.g. hooper alone understands Korean, then we have scenario A, where God gave the Korean tongue because He was sending a message to hooper.Tell me then, why in scenario A above, Paul would advise thatif none can interpret from Korean-English, Acehart should keep silence and no longer speak the word for hooper who understands Korean and would have been blessed as Paul advised in 1Cor14:28 and all through, to keep silence?

So if you answer 1 and 2, you would see that they both can't be the situation Paul was addressing, hence with all other indication in 1Cor14, like that even the speaker's mind is unfruitful (v14) and all, Paul was speaking of non-human tongues which profits NONE except the speaker's spirit( and not mind btw)

You also ignored what I said about the sign of tongues to unbelievers which clearly shows that it is not to be understood by humans. Don't skip these.

Btw, Mutt, that was a really funny meme as usual with you, laughed hard. But I'm yet to know what "shalaye" means. You must be a Yoruba, I guess cos that's definitely Yoruba language.

Hoopernikao, you pointed out that Myer, (in the spirit of humility) has changed his initial stance on 1Cor14 being understandable tongues for gentiles and now calls them non-human tongues but you are yourself yet to accept that there are also human tongues as in Acts2 and several believers' experience today.
How do you ever plan to reconcile the scriptures without accepting? Just do it already, nobody is holding you down. Show us your whole theology on tongues and then maybe we will agree with you. We're not going to all agree with you before you can do this. Having established that 1Cor14 is non-human language, kindly show us what you wanna do with 1Cor13:1, since I've already shown that Paul listed ONLY gifts from 1Cor12 in 1Cor13:1-3 without a single hyperbole, like Mutt would believe.

Acehart:
Hi,

Hope your day was spent in the best way you could? Concerning the angel question, Paul had made a similar statement in Galatians 1:8: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Paul wasn’t saying an angel would come from heaven to preach another gospel; He was just stressing the form of creatures who have the capacity of speech to the superlative degree; a statement made by conjecture. Paul definitely knows he wouldn’t teach anything contrary yet he brings up the sanctity of the gospel and how it should be protected in the hearts of those in Galatia (against men and creatures). The same tone is used in 1 Corinthians 13:1. In both cases, Paul is using an “if” condition; I mean: “if” is used introduce possible or impossible situations or conditions and their results. The situations or conditions can be real, imagined or uncertain. I could tell a conductor who insults me after his bus driver hits my bike: if I slap you, you go die. I am referring to a possible condition of him dying if I slapped him. Did I slap him? Yes, two dirty slaps, but he didn’t die. That means the result was imagined.

I hope you understand.

My day is blessed, thanks a lot. Wish you grace and peace from the Father as well.
Acehart, you must, if you're willing to, learn to put all scriptures in their context. Only an unskilful workman(2Tim2:15) does otherwise.

You just by comparing 1Cor13 with Gal1:8, discarded the context of 1Cor13. You are now guilty of inserting those seeming insignificant words from Gal1:8 that completely change its idea, like Muttley did that I was correcting.
An emphatic NO. It is not one bit the same tone that Paul uses in both.
And how can we confirm that? Follow the two different stories.
In Gal1:8, Paul used those words Mutt was trying to add to 1Cor13
Gal 1:8 KJV BUT EVEN IF we, OR an angel from heaven...
You see those bolded words there, they make it only an unrealistic example flowing with the context that "...some were perverting the gospel of Christ..."(v7).

That was why I had to make sure Muttleylaff got caught trying to add those.


But 1Cor13 is very different.
1Co 13:1 KJV If(no "but"/no "even" ) I speak with the tongues of men AND (no "or even" ) of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
You see the absence of those words make a huge difference when you put the text in its context from 1Cor 12:31. The "and" also is very important because it shows a strict pairing and joining of the two into the gift called "sorts of tongues".
The even larger context of 1Cor13:1 begins in 1Cor12:1, which is a branch/new string in the entire letter. We can title this segment "Concerning the Spiritual...(1Cor12:1)". So in 1Cor12, he goes on to list out gifts. After all that, he ends the chapter by saying

1Co 12:31 KJV But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet(or plus) shew I unto you a more excellent way(love)

So in 1Cor13:1, he describes a scenario (not an impossible one but a very possible) hence "if" in which the best gifts(from 1Cor12) are used minus love to show that these plus love is the more excellent way.

With all the explanation I did up there about 1Cor13:1-3, you ought to have already seen that Paul is calling REAL gifts already listed in 1Cor12 in 1Cor13:1-3, not some impossible scenarios. Not one of the gifts listed there was an impossible gift. So, if you want to single out tongues of angels as impossible, do it for every other gift listed in v1-3. Mutt, of course, knows better than to cheerlead you for that.
It's plain and simple, if you are humbly and objectively searching for truth and not trying to hold on to a position.
One last thing, on a field of search for truth, try not to be distracted by cheers and hugs. Maintain your focus until you find truth. If you still honestly don't know, I advise you go back to God in prayer.

God bless you.

MuttleyLaff:
In regards to what specifically does the emboldened mean please because I don't follow...

You'll remember it, when it happens again, Mutt.

Okay then, Mutt. If you still can't see Paul was picking some of the different gifts he had mentioned in 1Cor12, here in 1Cor13:1-3 and showing that without love, these gifts yield no gains. Then I'm done here after this because those who want to understand will.
So here goes,

First, in 1Cor13:1, he picks out "sorts of tongues"(1Cor12:10,28) by breaking it down into its two categories "... tongues of men and of angels...".

N.B: Mutt, you have deliberately added "all the tongues of men...or even of angels..." which makes it a loose generalisation and not a strict categorisation.
No, it is strictly "Though I speak with tongues of men AND of angels..."(no "all the" and no "or even" ), making a STRICT categorisation of "sorts of tongues" into two rather than a generalisation.

In 1Cor13:2, he picks out prophecy(1Cor12:10), word of wisdom(mysteries), word of knowledge(1Cor12:8 ) and faith(1Cor12:9)

In 1Cor13:3, he picks out helps(1Cor12:28) and governments (1Cor12:28).

ALL the comparisons he made, from 1Cor13:1-3 were on the different gifts(all mentioned in 1Cor12) vs love and their worthlessness without love. His use of "If" wouldn't change that fact. It would only mean if he does these gifts without love, then...
So if you rule out tongues of angels being a gift under sorts of tongues, you can as well rule out every other gift in 1Cor12 mentioned in 1Cor13:1-3 as not being legitimate gifts.
Now read my answers again with this at the back of your mind that Paul spoke of angel tongues in 1Cor14

You said so much while avoiding my clear questions.
1.) What does God gain in giving Acehart a Korean tongue if no one there including Ace understands it. Couldn't He have received the prayer/praise in Acehart's native language. Why change from native to Korean if none understands Korean.
2.) If at least any e.g. hooper alone understands Korean, then we have scenario A, where God gave the Korean tongue because He was sending a message to hooper.
Tell me then, why in scenario A above, Paul would advise that if none can interpret from Korean-English, Acehart should keep silence and no longer speak the word for hooper who understands Korean and would have been blessed as Paul advised in 1Cor14:28, to keep silence?

So if you answer 1 and 2, you would see that they both can't be the situation Paul was addressing, hence with all other indication in 1Cor14, Paul was speaking of angel tongues which profits NONE except the speaker's spirit( and not mind btw)

You also ignored what I said about the sign of tongues to unbelievers which clearly shows that it is not to be understood by humans. Don't skip these.

Did you have to end your post with such sarcasm. So Acehart...

C'mon Mutt. Don't only learn cricket from Ace, lol, learn humor too. I know you have a lot of it deep down inside. Why so serious? (with a joker smile and in Joker's voice). Ace played along with my humor and I thought it was cool, so why didn't you?
Anyways, my bad. Should have ended that statement with "lol" or a smiley.

But don't also expect Ace to laugh with you like you quoted his counter joke now he has begun to see the light about the angel tongues that you deliberately refuse to see, lol.

For some reason, Myer keeps harassing hoopernikao with a question I already answered in my last post and I think my first post here.

MuttleyLaff:
I can't believe what my eyes are seeing.
What have I just read there. This is preposterous.

1/ Who advised you to pray in an angelic tongue, lmao?
2/ Where from did you learn that using angelic tongue, is about your spirit man itself praying and sanctioned by the Spirit to do so?
3/ Have you biblical proof or instance of anyone using angelic tongue/language to pray?
4/ To what end is the use of angelic tongue/language praying?
5/ Did God or any of the Apostles sanctioned this as a preferred mode of praying or recommendation?

Believing is impossible before the eyes(spiritual or at least physical) perceive the object of belief.
Mutt, when you come to a public forum littered with people who have read the Bible as you also have, be careful to present your perspective with modesty. Also, remember we all know only a bit and can learn while we teach.

Assuming you believe Paul wasn't pulling legs when he said "tongues of men and of angels" (1Cor13:1), let me answer you.
Answers
1.)Paul 1Cor14:5a,15a. Also everyone who said we should pray in the Spirit
2.)1Cor14:14a
3.)1Cor14:18(both Paul and also they all in the church in Corinth whom he corrected for using it publicly)
4.)1Cor14:4a(personal edification, your spirit expresses itself in its native(heavenly) language, it fellowships with Divinity)
5.)1Cor14:5a,15(pray and sing with his spirit). Praying in the Holy Spirit, meaning whatever manifestation of His in prayer, whether tongues, groans, burdens, substantiated faith etc. was the standard of all the apostles (Jud:20, Eph6:18)

Now Mutt, let me undertake to show how flawed the thought is that the tongues here are human.

First we can all agree that all humans on earth can be broadly categorised into two according to the gospel as also here in 1Cor14- believers and unbeliever

Is this language for the unbeliever?
Clearly answered by Paul. By quoting the prophet Isaiah, Paul shows that God's judgement on the rebellious/unbeliever is that "...YET they will not hear..."(1Cor14:21) hence the tongues here are a sign showing/pointing out that humanity in its separation from God can never hear/understand the divine. This tongues is a sign/pointer to that fact. So, this is not tongues with any intention to communicate to humanity but a different purpose.
One might ask but even the believer himself may not understand. Yes, the believer's mind is unfruitful but it is the same believer who spoke the divine language, hence the believer has at least a something of divinity in him, albeit yet to be developed to the point of hearing unlike the unbeliever who can neither hear nor speak the divine.

Notice also that Paul clearly says the unbeliever(note that this is ALL unbelievers as he does not specify a unique category, i.e. all anywhere on earth) a.k.a unlearned will NOT be able to relate when these tongues are spoken(1Cor14:23)





Is this language when spoken understandable to the believer?
1Cor14:19 makes it clear that it will not readily be understandable to the believer except with translation hence Paul would rather speak just a single understandable word in the congregation than tongues and he makes them desist from public use of the gift.
1Cor14:2 makes it equally clear that it is NOT TO MEN but only to God and in fact NONE understands the tongues. Furthermore the gift is said to be a speaking forth of MYSTERIES not knowledge(hence hidden from the congregation) and not to the audience but IN THE SPIRIT

A Useful Illustration
Imagine we all on this thread meet in person for a closed room fellowship and our present written conversation is as our spoken exhortation to one another.

Scenario A
So we've all been flowing up to this point when suddenly Acehart ceases speaking in English because God initiates Korean tongue through him(I assume none of us understands). What would God be achieving but speaking into the air(1Cir14:9)? Neither Acehart nor anyone else will be blessed.
Then again, if hoopernikao(because it sounds a bit Korean, lol) understands Korean. Then we would assume God was trying to pass a message to hooper that even Acehart himself would be ignorant of. Now, God would have achieved something(for hooper). Let this be Scenario A.

Scenario B
Consider then scenario B, where rather than Korean, Acehart begins to speak angelic tongue(not the mimicked gibberish promoted in several churches tho) which of course NONE understands, not even Acehart's mind but only his spirit man(1Cor14:14) partaking of the divine nature.

If scenario A was what spoken of in 1Cor14, take note Myer, Paul would be wrong to advise 1Cor14:28 that for a lack of a Korean-to- English translator to help the rest of us, Acehart shouldn't have spoken. As a matter of fact, if God did the tongues, He was intent on getting hooper's attention.
So, Paul wasn't referring to scenario A, but to scenario B(tongues of angels as well as all through 1Cor14), hence he recommends only private use where your spirit, being a partaker of divine nature, speaks it's native heavenly language/hence gaining the liberty of expression and refreshing itself in that.

And to quell Myer's fear, let me answer his question clearly. Yes, it is a common experience for people to speak unlearned foreign human tongues in preaching the gospel similar to scenario A or Acts2. This is at best called tongues of men. But what Paul referred to in 1Cor14 was tongues of angels.

Consider also this gift according to the 1Cor12:10 pairs with another gift- "translation of tongues" as also 1Cor14:5,15. This is also why we know Paul is not referring to human tongues. You see there's no use interpreting a human tongue which has already reached God's target audience in their learned language as it would already be a prophecy to them just as in Acts2, nobody had to translate. Translation only goes with tongues of angels.

Let me pause here so as to not disturb Mutt and Ace's, cricket match on a tongues thread field since they both believe tongues has reached its best before date. Maybe Goshen360 will come around with more questions to restore both to the purpose of the thread.

MuttleyLaff:
You have misunderstood my praying in the Holy Spirit, with the Spirit interceding on my behalf with groaning and sighing. Fyi, it was not an unpleasant experience for, rather it was the circumstances that brought me to a rock bottom heart wrenching place, that was unpleasant. This is why I mentioned that I wouldn't wish such conditions on my enemies. I have God to fall back on to, I have the Holy Spirit to step in for you. Imagine, a non believer, you who hasn't got my divine/spiritual back up, his/her case will be like a chihuahua got lost in an African thick forested jungle. Wont last 5 minutes. I vividly remember, now looking back at those times, that I felt relieved, the moment I started doing the actually groaning and sighing. I was already suffering from prayer exhaustion, so when the groaning and sighing kicked, wow, it was a relief and a good feeling. Immediately, I remembered the instances of Jesus too doing same, so that gave me comfort, it made a lot happy and relieved, then soon after I picked myself up and just moved on from there. It's tough one how to describe the groaning and/or sighing pray in the spirit. I am tempted to say its a love-hate relationship, but if tbt, force to commit myself, then, I'll probably say, it's more of a love relationship because I pleased to know such thing like that is handy or near for me to use as per when needed to.

Oh I very well can relate. Trust me. The discomfort I speak of is in the moment of exertion from your inside where the groans rise from after which there would be great joy and relief. A certain note of victory.

If I pray in Yoruba/Igbo/Hausa/Greek/Hebrew/pidgin, am I not praying with my mind, with my spirit (i.e. spirit man) aligned and/or in tuned with Holy Spirit ni, hmm?

C'mon now Finallydead, stop being mischievous here with this attempt of misunderstanding exactly what is going on 1 Corinthians 14:14.
Are you, peradventure, reading 1 Corinthians 14:14 in isolation and so there unwittingly interpreting the intent out of context, erhn?

No iota of mischief here, Mutt. These are holy, spiritual things, we can't get loose with them. It's exactly what I said. When you pray in an angelic tongue, it is your spirit man himself praying, anointed by the Holy Spirit definitely, but your spirit is the actor here while your mind/reasoning is at a loss on what is being said. This is no mere human language either.
But when a groan rises from your bowels, it is the Spirit Himself from within your human spirit expressing His own intercession.
That makes this groaning the highest intensity of prayer although both will be rightly termed praying in the spirit. There are even more dimensions of praying in the spirit like prayer burdens etc. but each is unique.
We'll just have to stay on course and avoid them. For this thread, we focus on tongues.

Acehart:
Acts 12:21-23

On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Earlier, we saw some synonyms of the word “Language”. They include: speech, dialect, jargon, terminology, lingo, vernacular, word, style, and sound. Other synonyms include: Command of language, accent, voice, vocabulary, word, sound, mother-tongue, sound, expression, terminology, lingo, idiom, style, enunciation, manner of speech etc.

In the text above, King Herod gave an address to a people in their language (mother-tongue or lingo); and the people who heard his address yelled: “The voice of a god and not of a man!”

Did he really have a voice like that of a god? The Greek word for the English word “voice” is “phōnḗ”, from which we have the English word “phonetics”. In the Greek, phōnḗ means “the speech of a tongue or language”. It also expresses the way a speech’ language is enunciated.

Herod’s language style, expression, articulation, command of the mother tongue, and manner if speech elicited such a response....



Cc: Kobojunkie, Muttleylaff, Finallydead, Toyorlee1, Nebes, Maximus69, Eulalia, Vickydankal, Goshen360, PharmaGirl

Greetings Acehart,
Thanks again for the mention and nice display of transparency and character back there. Tbh, I'm in agreement with hoopernikao's understanding of kainos and neos. In fact, he has handled that aspect quite well. It's just the plain truth that any greek scholar will tell about those two words. Anyone who is in disagreement either needs to do further study with greek lexicons or is just in plain denial.
I also agree with his understanding of "laeg" in Is28:11 and that was exactly Paul's point in 1Cor14:21-22
The problem however is we've spent too much on that and are yet to get into the meat of tongues. If you guys won't agree on that. Then maybe y'all could move on.

Hey hoopernikao, if your wish is actually to get to 1Cor14, you could just do so already. You don't have to get everyone to agree to make your point nor to get distracted defending your reputation.
A good teacher must be able to maintain focus on his points and not be derailed by all that.

Hey Mutt, it seems you're combining two different spiritual experiences into one.
I can totally relate to your experience and you're right to say that such groaning is praying in the Holy Spirit i.e. the Holy Spirit groaning/sighing through you WITHOUT words as per Rom8:26, a quite unpleasant experience that releases probably the greatest spiritual power though.
But praying in tongues is another kind of praying- your human spirit(NOT Holy Spirit) praying (1Cor14:14) with vocalised, distinct ANGELIC words(1Cor13:1). A very refreshing experience on the contrary.
I already touched on speaking in tongues in my initial post.

Acehart:
MISINTERPRETATION OF ISAIAH 28:11 BY HOOPERNIKAO - HIS MISINFORMATIONS
____________________________________________________

“ You are the one sir not staying with the context. Key words you neglected in your interpretation includes speaking as a child (blabbing, senseless speech), stammering lips translated from a shameful speaking, a mocking speech. You cant overlook such key words in this context sir.”

I have started with the comment of Hupernikao, the num de guerre of my major protagonist on this thread. My reaction to it is similar to that of the “Prince of Preachers” who said: I view the difficulties of Holy Scripture as so many prayer stools upon which I kneel and worship the glorious Lord. What we cannot comprehend by our understandings we apprehend by our affections. (Charles Spurgeon, 1888)....

Matthew Henry in his commentary of Isaiah 28:9 wrote: What method they (Prophets and Ministers) took, in pursuance of this design (to teach them knowledge): They left no means untried to do them good, but taught them as children are taught, little children that are beginning to learn, that are taken from the breast to the book (Isaiah 28:9), for among the Jews it was common for mothers to nurse their children till they were three years old, and almost ready to go to school. And it is good to begin betimes with children, to teach them, as they are capable, the good knowledge of the Lord, and to instruct them even when they are but newly weaned from the milk..

Hoopernikao had this to say in his commentary of Isaiah 28:11: “you speak to a child, babbling alliteration of a child, meaningless gibberish, senseless babbling. That is the word of a child.” From his comment, God spoke to Israel in senseless babbling; he said: “In this case, a senseless speech, unintelligent speaking, a shameful speech is synonymous to children babbling, this is the meaning stammering carried in the scripture.” His comment is borderline derogatory to Israel’s God and not coherent to say to the least. When you compare his interpretation to Matthew Henry’s commentary, Hoopernikao’s interpretation leaves a lot to be desired because his work lacked diligence. Charles Spurgeon has this to say about Matthew Henry’s Commentary: "First among the mighty (commentaries) for general usefulness we are bound to mention the man whose name is a household word, Matthew Henry. He is the most pious and pithy, sound and sensible, suggestive and sober, terse and trustworthy . . . he is deeply spiritual, heavenly, profitable; finding good matter in every text, and from all deducting the most practical and judicious lessons. It is the Christian's companion, suitable to everybody, instructive to all.”

As Hoopernikao continued in his comment, he said: [i]In all places where such word is used, it inferred a shameful tongue, a tongue, speaking in derision, mockery tongue. The usage of the word foreign as used by you must be put in context. It means to speak unintelligibly (as if a foreign tongue). No place will you see laeg, stammering used as foreign again in all writings. Matthew Henry then says of Isaiah 28:11: “[color=#770077]It should seem, they ridiculed the prophet's what is plain and level to their capacity, but despise it as mean and trifling, are justly amused with that ...

Acehart, not so sure what the point of this thread is but we might be straying from the spirit of brotherly objective exchange. I can't see hoopernikao's heart but I'll just say we shouldn't cast aspersions because false accusation is also a sin. What's with all this "air of superiority" character assassination label. I think he's only presented his points logically and objectively and if there's any condescension in his heart, I think so far, it's not distinctly expressed in his presentations.
Not everyone must come out in the explicitly modest "I just want to learn" conduct that Goshen360 has chosen before we entertain them. Afterall, sometimes even proud people can do that, so it's more about the heart.
You presented a sensitive subject. You should be prepared for proper scrutiny from any party and that isn't derogatory in anyway. If you think his points are flawed, you can do due diligence to show him and us all how or just ignore.

As for the quoted presentation of yours. I'm sorry but knowledge doesn't work that way. I also respect Spurgeon. But no scripture is of private interpretation. The only authority is the Holy Spirit Himself and we all see in part(1Cor13:9)
You've sort of said here, huper has to respect the opinions of other "better" Christians(in your judgment) else he is disdainful. Unknown to you that can be seen as manipulative. If that's your view, maybe we should just close the thread already.
A million commentators giving the same interpretation wouldn't make it right as respected as each may be.
Not that I agree with all his presentation, my line of thought remains as I've already presented but just so we don't lose the purpose of the thread.

And it is not derogatory to say the God of Israel doesn't communicate Himself clearly at times. In fact, this is part of His judgment on the rebellious(Pr26:5, Is6:10, Is44:18, Mat13:13). The holy words though sensible will come to them as unintelligible just as you would expect the message of the gospel to atheists. This was exactly Paul's point that though the words are divine, the hearer's don't understand hence not blessed. It's not an affront to God. So you don't have to sound so pious about that.

Eulalia:
Greetings in Jesus name.

@bro finallydead. Are you saying even in this dispensation of Grace, answers to prayers can still be withheld in the spiritual realm? Does grace not make it easily accessible?

Thanks you.

naijaboy756:
Good question

A good question you've asked there and one many do. The reason for this question arising is because the teaching of the economy of grace in many christian circles is usually at the most incomplete/imbalanced.
Remember, Paul is who most people would call the chief proponent of grace. Yet it was Paul who taught that we are in a spiritual warfare(Eph6:12) and prayers are our way out(v18). Also, Paul was hindered by Satan(1Th2:18). Paul also had open doors from God but great opposition from Satan(1Cor16:9).
The point is the economy of grace makes all God's provisions available and accessible to us(i.e. reserved in the spirit realm) but it also empowers us with authority to overcome all Satanic resistance to bring it into manifestation IF we can persevere in prayers against all of it.
According to Paul, faith(grace) is a fight(1Tim6:12, 2Tim4:7, 1Cor9:26, Eph6:12...). But we are not fighting to make God answer us because He has already provided all in Christ in the spiritual realm(2Cor1:20, Eph1:3) by grace. We are fighting to make what grace already provided in the spirit realm manifest in the physical realm(Mat6:10) because earth is our jurisdiction(Ps115:16).

If you can understand this principle, Eulalia, NO single provision of God will ever elude you.

God bless you.

sighting:
I have been praying for a period of time now particularly in the midnight on some particular requests but I have not yet gotten answers and I think I'm getting wearied of kneeling down to pray again.I have confessed my sins I don't know what else to do.I need the hand of God i need him.will I ever get answers

Kobojunkie:
My heart goes out to you @OP. I know very well how frustrating it can be to want God to show up only to keep hearing "Trust your Father",then "Obey Him", "Wait".

While you wait on Him, may I suggest you please revisit His covenant again(i.e. every word cometh out of the mouth of God - Jesus Christ). I recommend you begin with the book of Matthew, beginning from Chapter 5 through to at least chapter Chapter 16. Read to learn what truths are in there that could help you figure out the puzzle that is your situation right now. God will open your eyes to His truth as You do so.

Here is a summary of the commandments of the new covenant that is Jesus Christ. https://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Commands/Commands-list.pdf

Friend, it is unfortunate that prayer is taught today in Christendom to be some magical, instant, genie-in-the-bottle, formula because this is not what the Lord taught.
First, understand before you begin praying that there are spiritual laws in place which like natural laws(e.g. gravity) can never be broken. Also understand that no matter your sin, if you have acknowledged and repented, you are forgiven freely in Christ(Eph1:7). In fact, God also gives you power through His cross to overcome any struggles you have with sin. But the big task in prayer is your request getting to you through all spiritual protocol after its released by God to you.
As long as what you ask is in line with God's will, you should know that it's not up to God to release your answer because He already has(Eph1:3) but only in the spirit(heavens) which is His jurisdiction(Ps115:16).
The onus is then on men whose jurisdiction is the earth(Ps115:16) to persevere through all delays of Satanic forces(Eph6:12) to resist the manifestation of what God has provided in the spirit hence(Eph6:18, Lk18:1-8, Mt6:10)
Note that the hand of God can never be seen on earth except men persevere through all the resistances of Satanic forces like Daniel did(Dan10:12-14) because the earth has been given to men. Had Daniel not persevered, the prince of Persia would have hindered the manifestation of his prayer God already heard from the first day he prayed(v12).

And how do we know when we can stop praying and our victory has come? Either when we see the answer manifest or when we no longer have an iota of doubt in our hearts about the matter(Mk11:23, note shalt not doubt in his heart. Also, Jam1:6), whichever comes first.
As long as there is still any little doubt in your heart, it means Satanic forces are still resisting your answer, so keep on praying until there is no single doubt again.
This takes a lot of patience and diligence in prayer, so buckle down, if you're really serious for your answer. You just have to keep at it until the answer comes.

PS: Beware of anyone trying to direct you to any man or woman or church so you don't complicate your challenges. Always take everything to God Himself who died for you so you may freely access Him.

Kobojunkie:
I disagree!

Again I disagree
By the way, how many angel tongues are there?

it's okay to disagree, but you should at least state why. Look at 1Cor14:2,13 and tell why you disagree.

The word new (kainos) is always used in the sense of "unprecedented" in Gk language.

There are diverse species of angels and diverse angel tongues too.

Greetings Acehart, Muttleylaff, Goshen360 and hoopernikao.
Please don't mind if I bump in a little. First, I must commend huper's approach with the exposition.
But I think it's much easier to grasp this subject from the holistic perspective where a bit of everyone's ideas will find a landing and some rough edges in them will be evened out.
This is a modified (for this thread) excerpt of mine that might help.

The issue of tongues is one that has really been treated with much injustice in today's christianity. We all need to be open to the Holy Spirit to help us grasp it better.
So there are two categories of tongues (1Cor13:1) and neither are unknown
1.) Tongues of men(known to one man or another)
2.) Tongues of angels(known only to God and the angels)
But the standard for genuine tongues(men's or angel's) is they can ONLY come by the inspiration/anointing of the Holy Spirit and never one's effort(like concocted prayer tongues in churches today). Eulalia's testimony is a good one for seekers of the genuine gift to follow.
This means that there is actually no place in scripture for the unintelligible gibberish and jargons that Christians are taught to mechanically mimick. If christians pray with gibberish and get results, it is actually not because of the jargons but because they are exploring the principles of resultful prayer e.g. faith, perseverance and sowing & reaping, while muttering nonsensical jargons.

So, I believe when the Lord spoke of new tongues(Mk16:17), he wasn't referring to tongues of men but of angels because "new"(kainos) meant "never before existing" i.e. never before been in existence as huper pointed out.
It is also tongues of angels and NOT of men that Paul particularly dealt with in 1Cor14 as v2,13 make obvious.
The manifestation of tongues(1Cor14) comprises all speakings(v2), i.e. singing(v15), praying(v14,15), praises and thanks(16,17).
The manifestation of tongues being the accompanying sign of the Holy Spirit baptism happens to be available for every believer to develop through consistent prayer for personal edification.

It's important to note that Paul recommends that we do not rest at tongues which is only for personal edification but develop tongues into prophecy that edifies others in the true spirit of love.(1Cor14:1,5,15...). We can develop through growing in love and prayer(1Cor14:13).
Please note that prophecy is not necessarily prediction but is the superimposition of ANY utterance of the Holy Spirit into vocal chords of men i.e. the prophesier does not direct His vocal chords within the prophetic moment. This is different from God giving one a message and they using their vocal chords to convey the message e.g a word of knowledge. It is also worthy of note that prophecy like tongues is the particular spiritual gift that EVERY believer is encouraged to grow into(1Cor12:31,14:1,5,12,) though not making them a prophet....

(to be contd.)

Perra:
The second thing.

1 ----Having recently re-woken to my spiritual life and Relationship with the Lord, ..i have been praying to God to teach me to hear him well and clearly when he speaks to me. Because to live a Spirit filled Christian life, hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit is really necessary. I honestly haven't gotten to that stage perfectly... Mostimes Ioubt alot.... The ones I don't doubt is after a Very intense midnight prayer, before sleep carries me away, ..i receive a message out of nowhere, ..and I hear it clearly in my mind full sentence word to word... And I know without doubt that I did not make it up.

But I know there are people out there that in a normal day hear this voice in their heart as clear as I hear it before going to bed, with zero doubt. I haven't gotten to that stage yet, still working in my spiritual level and growth, I guess it's all interconnected?? Am i right??

2 ------Another thing, I want to talk about receiving the Holy Ghost...the way the apostles received him and everything changed etc.. Speaking in tongues, more power and Great authority.

CharlyG, and everyone else that believes he has the HolyGhost, ...there is this notion out there ( which is also true) ..that you receive the HolyGhost through the Laying of hands by a Strong man/woman of God that has the presence in himself also.
And I know my cousin sister and many other people who I know attended one heavy Anointing packed Church program, received the HolyGhost when hands was laid in them, and since that day they have been FIRE! And both do prophecy accurate while praying intesly.

And this was not so before the laying of hands they were just normal Christians that love God.

Now over to you Guys, what's your say in this?? ... Someone like CharlyG, ... People like you are born with * a spiritual silver spoon* ... You did not need laying of hands, before you started manifesting or becoming Fire. Or did you??


3 ---- And also people say you can learn topeak in tongues, I absolutely don't believe this. But I see many Churches teaching speaking in tongues,. I believe it's a gift that comes with the reception of the HolyGhost, you don't just go and learn how to speak in tongues, it's not Foreign language na. Soo this one tire me.

All your many questions have to do with just one thing- the ABIDING Presence of God.

But first, I suggest you get rid of the "silver-spoon", "special" believers mindset because there are two aspects of spiritual life. Gifting(external) and internal state and God only rates us based on our internal conformity with Christ. Yes, some are gifted more than others according to sovereign wisdom but they will never be considered in heaven for their gift/anointing. Everyone will be judged based on their loving surrender to God's will in their which is according to their internal state.
While gifting may open up opportunities, get us earthly recognition and even involve us highly with the angelic and the Holy Spirit because of heavenly assignments attached to the gifting, we really are ALL up against the same brick wall of SELF in conforming our internal state with Christ's and can only PATIENTLY, yet with steady obedience and surrender, be conformed to Christlikeness. It will take a lot of perseverance, iow.

You want to be filled with the Spirit daily? You have chosen well. God has made that provision available, His ABIDING Presence. But it will require more than prayer and fasting(I say this as one who has greatly explored such disciplines and knows their value). What is required however is a resting place/temple for God where He can ABIDE - an inward state. If you're thinking that God, like a man, will be rewarding you with His Presence on the basis of daily input-daily reward format, you have a thing more to learn about Him.
All your daily spiritual exercise is towards building a landing for the Spirit to dwell, preparing your inner state to host Him. So keep at it and be urgent in it while also patient as God will be building in all of it, a place for Himself.

Perra:
Yes i totallygree with this. I rember having a scary dream last night about such.

Had just finished my midnight prayer and in my dream i was coming back from somewhere with some random people ...and suddenly the image of Christ started flashing in the sky, more like in the form of bright Light...not in the human body, it will flash and disappear.... It happened for a while but I kept walking.
And suddenly THICK FIRE started razzing down in the earth from the sky. VERY THICK and giant. Everyone started running halter skater . Eventually I got home and the fire was still razzing and remember asking the Lord what was happening. Then I saw a piece of paper beside me and I read what was written in it, and it said that God is angry with the world and will send fire, but the fire will not touch his children or his own people.

After reading the paper, I remember in that dream I said to my self ' abeg me that have not finished working on how to hear the voice of God ( in real life I'm working in how to hear the Holy Spirit ) I am now here believing that I am receiving message from him. And I woke up.. Lol, ..i still don't take the dream serious... Like fire will come down in the earth? Nahhh I highly doubt it

That is God speaking to you and you should begin to recognise it. The consciousness of God in your life grows by recognition.
And that's no scary dream, btw. If there is any element of fear in you, it's because you haven't come into perfect love(1Jn4:18). There are still things the fire of God's love wants to consume inside of you. And do not be afraid but welcome it.

The fire you see is the outpouring of fire on the earth that separates the wheat from the tares(Lk12:49, Mt3:11) and leads to a mighty(the greatest yet, actually) move of God on earth. It's good news for the obedient who together with their works and service, they themselves will be purified by the fire(those who have been asking God to make them Christlike and pleasing to Him) but bad news for the rebellious as it will begin to consume all that has been built outside of foundation of Christ. This fire is the merciful judgement of God that leads the whole world to salvation(Is26:9). Judgement of fire only deals with whatever is not of Christ in us and on earth. For those who want it, they will have something left from the fire as precious gold but for those who don't, nothing will be left.(Mt13:12)
The dream tells you the beginning of this outpouring is now.

MuttleyLaff:
Finallydead thank you for your able and knowleageable input. May God continue to bless you with more understanding

God bless you too Mutt for your contributions.

davidinchrist:
There is no such thing as Sabbath day, Xmas day, Easter day, Holy day, Good day, Bad/Sad day/Etc in the New Covenant.

Sabbath day is Old Covenant which has been done away with or fulfilled in Christ:

Colossians 2:16 - 17 NLT
16 So don’t let anyone CONDEMN you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating CERTAIN Holy days or New moon Ceremonies or SABBATHS.

17 For these rules are only SHADOWS of the REALITY yet to come. And Christ himself IS THAT REALITY.

Every other Days like Xmas days and the likes are ALL Traditions of Men:

Mark 7:7-8 NLT
7 Their Worship is a farce, for they teach MAN-MADE ideas as commands from God.’

8 For you IGNORE God’s Law and Substitute your OWN TRADITION.”


However, the Sabbath is a symbol of God's REST in the New Covenant:


Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
Come unto Me, all ye that Labour and are Heavy laden, and I will give you "REST".

[29] Take my yoke upon you, and LEARN of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find "REST" unto your souls.

[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Sabbath/Rest of God means Faith, Holiness, Peace, Joy AND "Security" in Eternal Life of Jesus in general, for those living to do His Will for the rest of their lives.

This Sabbath/Rest is NOT meant for One Special day or some days of the week, but ALWAYS OR EVERYDAY, It's living in God's Presence:

1 Thessalonians 5:16 - 18 NLT

16 ALWAYS be Joyful. (not sometimes)

17 Never stop praying.

18 Be THANKFUL in all CIRCUMSTANCES (good or bad), for this is God’s Will for you who BELONG to Christ Jesus.

Psalm 118:24 KJV
THIS IS THE DAY which the Lord hath made; we will REJOICE and be GLAD in it.

Philippians 3:1 KJV
Finally, my Brethren, REJOICE in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is SAFE.


To have this Rest, one must live by FAITH and be in Obedience to Jesus, not in UNBELIEF and Disobedience like the Israelites:

Hebrews 4:1 KJV
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of Entering into His REST, any of you should seem to COME SHORT OF IT.

Hebrews 4:11 KJV
Let us labour therefore to ENTER into that REST, lest any man FALL after the SAME example of UNBELIEF.

Hebrews 4:9 KJV
There remaineth therefore a REST to the PEOPLE of God.

(See Hebrew 3:7 - 4:11 for details).

In conclusion: The Sabbath in the New covenant means a Life of holiness, peace and joy through FAITH in God: without Faith it's impossible to please God.

Therefore, we're to REJOICE and Give THANKS to God in EVERYTHING ALWAYS, NOT SOMETIMES because God makes ALL things (good or bad) to work together for good for EVERYONE living to please Him. Romans 8:28

Nevertheless, there is NO room for gloom, fear, anger, depression, worry and the likes for ALL children of God.

If we're not ALWAYS Rejoicing and Thankful, it's a mark that we are not in God's Rest yet, or at least not completely.

We need to Repent of our UNBELIEF, Doubt and other Sins to enter God's Rest:

Romans 8:35,37-39 KJV
Who shall SEPARATE US from the love of Christ? SHALL tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?

[37] Nay, in all these things we are MORE than Conquerors through HIM that loved us.

[38] For I am persuaded, that neither DEATH, nor LIFE, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come...
...shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

May Jesus Bless You.

We Christians haven't really understood the place of the law and until we give it it's rightful place, the ultimate plan of God will elude us. As Muttleylaff rightly said, the statutes of God are eternal. Not a single iota of the Torah will pass away until all are fulfilled in Christ(Mt5:18). We should aim to fulfill the Sabbath now through faith in Christ. Just as Paul points out, there is a Sabbath ahead for every believer to labour to enter after their initial faith(Heb4:1, 9-11).
What is the Sabbath? It is the rest we come to where we no longer work but God does all the work in us as seen in the Lord Jesus(Jn14:10). It is experiencing this same oneness He had with the Father where EVERYTHING in our lives springs out from His work within(Jn17:21)
We labour to enter it by seeking God daily, surrendering everything to Him, growing in prayer until He perfects this work in us and we no longer do these but He does all.

Let no one be deceived, we can never enter into this rest until we have truly surrendered our entirety to God.

agwom:
The Bible tells us that God implemented the Sabbath day, at the time of creation as a memorial to his wondrous work. It says, Gen 2:2-3 “And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made”....

http://www.mychristianlifeministries.com/2020/05/is-seventh-day-really-sabbath.html

Oblitz:
True

petra1:
The sabbath was a shadow of Christ; secondly sabbath was not changed to sunday. The jews still maintain their sabbath but not for Christians ; christians worship on sundays because the early church worship on Sundays

Eviana:
Beautifully written
A very special day indeed!
I surely look forward to the day when Christians that truly love the Lord...both the Sabbath AND 1st day churches AND those of other religions (which they will have left) ALL will be worshiping one God together on one accord with no division.

davidinchrist:
Nice, however, feel free to see this post, IF you so wish:
https://www.nairaland.com/5848690/entering-gods-sabbath-whats-gods

May Jesus Bless You.

We Christians haven't really understood the place of the law and until we give it it's rightful place, the ultimate plan of God will elude us. As Muttleylaff rightly said, the statutes of God are eternal. Not a single iota of the Torah will pass away until all are fulfilled in Christ(Mt5:18). We should aim to fulfill the Sabbath now through faith in Christ. Just as Paul points out, there is a Sabbath ahead for every believer to labour to enter after their initial faith(Heb4:1, 9-11).
What is the Sabbath? It is the rest we come to where we no longer work but God does all the work in us as seen in the Lord Jesus(Jn14:10). It is experiencing this same oneness He had with the Father where EVERYTHING in our lives springs out from His work within(Jn17:21)
We labour to enter it by seeking God daily, surrendering everything to Him, growing in prayer until He perfects this work in us and we no longer do these but He does all.

Let no one be deceived, we can never enter into this rest until we have truly surrendered our entirety to God.

donwhit:
Brother i beg to differ the universe was created by certain rythm and beats, the beat of the heart is 3/4 and many others for nature which i will not say for now. If the beat of a song or rythm does not correspond with what God created thr song is evil, we are not even talking about lyrics now.Too many gospel artist bring ungodly beats into the church, rock and rap music cannot be accepted by angels. PEACE

I beg to differ with you brother. I'm interested in your post because you brought up the creative dimension of sound and beats asides lyrics. I agree with you on this aspect.
Certain angelic beings did sing into the fabric of the material elements during creation and music remains God's means of creating things.
But where you went off was in the part of saying rock cannot be accepted by angels. While I can't classify rap as music, where exactly did you get this that rock music is unheavenly? Have you heard all the sounds that play in heaven? Do you know all the rhythms that God has hidden within Him? Or did God categorically tell you there is no rock in heaven.
Do you even think Satan has ever created anything except perverting what is created? Because Satan is misusing something, does it give him ownership? It's better to always remember that we only know from a portion and not fullness. Whatever you've heard is only one dimension. There are billions more to experience.

Emphatically, I can tell you that there is a lot of rock and roll in God. There is a lot of jazz, blues, afro, highlife etc. and even a lot of what else we may not be able to fit into genres we know today. The difference in the divine and satanic and the point of discernment is what each rhythm does to the souls of men and the spirit behind the inspiration whether Holy Spirit or not. Does it transmit the divine life that conveys the soul to the presence of God or mere death in gratification of the flesh? Does it have the fragrance of life and the atmosphere of heaven with it or is it simply an addictive thing that turns one's heart away from the Creator and to itself?

If you think rock or any other in itself is ungodly, you're in for a big shock soon with the kind of music heaven will be releasing to earth which will restore creation to divine order. Let's always humbly remember that we know from a portion.

Cc: davidinchrist

Christmasdon:
Just want to know. Is it really obvious?

Coming back to the Father speaks of returning to the original divine will which existed before creation and before there was a fall or any evil. This will is the source/origin(father) of all purposes and plans intended to manifest in the created realm. The purpose of creation.

The only way to this is through the Logos(Jesus), i.e. the nature/character of the Godhead. Except we adopt the divine character, we will never return to our original divine purpose.

This character was what God came to exemplify in His manifestation as Jesus Christ. The character of selfless love to the point of death.
See it this way simply: Not all that happens in this realm is the will of God. But you can make things conform to God's will first in your life by adopting the character of the Godhead.

Eulalia:
Ow God. Ow God... I'm seeing this message for the second time and I'm loving it . I'm lifted. I'm motivated. God bless you for this simple truth.

I tried taking this message in Sunday school 2yrs ago but I bet I didn't do justice to it like you have done.

Like seriously, many christians still believe they surrendered their lives of their own accord not knowing it was God who called them first for he said ' you didn't chose me but I chose you first" this was the text I used to drive home my message bit i guess you took it deeper and more extensively. Glory!

Some also still believe they can please God by their dos and donts. *smiles* so many are still trapped under the law. That why I like the verse that say " let us walk in the liberty where Christ has made us free".

Please more of this. I'm really enjoying the grace and anointing of God upon your life to demystify the deep meaning of the word of God.

God bless youuuuu.

The OP is not wrong to say the will of God is to have faith because that's the foundation for our relationship with God. But tbh, that's quite vague because each has a relative definition of faith today and the Lord went beyond just faith and specified in the passage what God's will is. All believers have faith and on the strength of faith alone, qualify for a heavenly ticket(excluding those who give up faith in Christ at any point) but only believers who do the will of God will be rewarded with the riches of His kingdom.(Mt7:21)

So in clearer terms, What is the will of God? The will of God actually is simply as stated in v17-21 of the text in Mt7: That we give birth or, in other words, bear the good/perfect divine fruit(multiply) by following the narrow way of selfless/loving surrender of our earthly lives described in Mt5-7.(Mt7:17-21, Jn15:8 )

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s6/images/Slavery.jpg[/img]

Chief, chief, donnie, you go school nah, you're biblical literate and you sabi do sums.

1/ What is a generation in bible language, hmm? Nobi 40 years, hmm?

2/ What year the Joseph die? Nobi 1806 ni, hmm?
3/ What does Exodus 1:6 say, hmm? Nobi that "After Joseph, his brothers, and everyone else in that generation had died, ", hmm?
4/ What is 30+1806+40, hmm? Nobi 1876, giving time the Israelites arrived at Egypt
(30 being time while still free and 40 being time for the brother and everyone to die after Joseph)

5/ What is (1806+40)-1446=? Equals 400 years slavery. Right there on point.
6/ What is (30+1806+40)-1446=? Equals 430 years total sojourn in Egypt.

cc: PervertProphet, jared007, bodydialect57, Finallydead, MiddleDimension, Daejoyoung

Hey Mutt, I appreciate the awareness you've brought me of this thread but now that I'm already aware of this topic/thread, I can follow it even without further mentions. The continuous mentions make my mentions pile up so much and I lose track of some.
Thanks.

MuttleyLaff:
How long are you online until today. I have just gotten up, haven't yet freshened up, haven't taken my turmeric and cumin hot drink first thing on empty stomach and certainly haven't had my breakfast yet too.

I am also about killing two demons, plaguing one of our brothers who is impersonating an Israelite and so I am needing to call the devil a liar, on two other fronts there too, lol.

So yeah, please advise how long you are online for. Had a call from my service provider out of the blues yesterday, asking me about the unsolicited fibre optic router they sent me and checking if I have yet started using it. I affirmatively responded, of course yes, that I set it up and have been using since after.

Anyway long story short, it seems my connection has improved, because after the call I've noticed I havent experienced dropped wifi connectivity or time lags, as like I previously had been. I think they flipped on a switch at their end for me, lol.

How long are you online for?

Hey Mutt, I'm available now and within the next few hours. Also feel free to holla whenever's convenient for you and I'll just check if it is for me.

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s1/images/MuttAmin.gif[/img]
Do you see yourself now, hmm?

See yourself donnie, how unsurprisingly you fell flat on your face. I knew you have no idea of what you are talking about. That is why I asked you this Bible 101 question, which you woefully failed at. Smh.

donnie, all I have for you is love. In fact all I have for you in agape love. If you do what is right, will I not love you more, hmm? But if you do not do what is right, I will come after you and upon you as if like a ton of bricks

There's no rest and/or peace for the wicked, deceiving and misleading innocent souls

donnie, lol, you err, not knowing the Scriptures. How wrong you are and it is simply because you don't know the Scriptures. Look at that simple question I asked you about listing here the names of the tribes MESSIAH will divide His people when He returns, lol. Simple list 12 names, you've gone to copy and paste here three quarters the Ezekiel chapter 48. You're a clown

Mutt, I just now realized that the post I made in response to your invitation was actually supposed to be for this thread, which I thought it was on. Funny, I'm in such a hurry sometimes, I don't even stop to confirm these details. So I'll repost here instead.

Hey Muttleylaff, thanks for your invitation.

Concerning Donnie here, I've actually seen his posts for a long time but never wanted to engage him because I perceive no openness to differing perspectives and I think(wish I'm wrong) there's just too much bitter and toxic hate against his fellow humans of other colour. An unchristlike example for any who claims faith in Abraham's God. If the whites were as bad as he portrays, then our hatred for them only shows we have been overcome by evil instead of overcoming evil with love(Rom12:21) and blessing, loving and praying for our enemies.(Mt5:44)
This is not the message of Christ who died for ALL humans to be saved that the good news of the kingdom will be preached in every nation and tribe and tongue which are all well represented in heaven(Rev5:9, Mt24:14)
Donnie makes it sound like we weren't all equally created by God or there is some added recognition God gives to flesh and blood if one is a Jew. Thank God, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile(Gal3:28)
Study the scriptures. God's assessment of the Jewish race as a whole was NEVER good but actually that they were a stiff-necked, rebellious, adulterous and sinful nation(Is1:4). He equated their stubbornness against Him with the demonic sons of Anak whose land they would possess(Deut9:4-7, 13,22-24, 27, Deut31:27-29).
Every single prophet God raised was sent to prophesy against their rebellion again and again. God told Ezekiel they were the most rebellious, even calling them scorpions(Eze2:3-7). Stephen said they had persecuted every single prophet of God and ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit(Acts7:51-52).
The Lord wept over the Jerusalem, where the best Jews were for their unwillingness to follow God and tagged them murderers of prophets(Mat23:37,35).
Even when a Caucasian was, for conscience sake, unwilling to crucify the Son of God, it was the Jews who insisted He must be crucified.(Lk23:4, Mt27:24). Caucasian soldiers would have let the world know the truth of Jesus's resurrection but the Jews would go to any length to resist truth. Because of the Jews, we scarcely have evidence of the Lord's resurrection(Mt28:12-13), which God most of them always hated and persecuted those among them that stood for Him.
Paul was a true Hebrew of Hebrews, even of the elite and most learned, but when he found the excellency of identity in Christ, he counted his Hebrew identity with all that came with it as refuse(Php3:4-9) and he specifically warned to beware of people with this spirit of exalting flesh and blood, calling them dogs(who go back to the vomit of human identity having boast in the flesh instead of the new creation)(Php3:2-3).
Paul further explicitly answers the question whether the Jews are any better than the gentiles in (Rom3:9-18) and in case people like Donnie would think that described gentiles, he specified in Rom3:19 that he described the Jewish race.
When the Jews boasted before God that they were of Abraham's bloodline, He told them Abraham was just another slave of sin who couldn't save any from sin but only the bloodline of the son of God, being pure divinity would save them.(Jn 8:33-36)



Anyone who is rediscovering his Hebrew identity is allowed but he must know what God truly thinks of that race, asides His great mercy to save them from their stiff-necked rebellion.
Donnie seems to think that if we as the black race can identify with Abraham's bloodline, it would give us more dignity. But no!. While there are some among the black race that are truly of Abraham's bloodline, it would add no value before God on them.
That mentality of this whole black Jesus movement whether true or false is also quite a cheap and cowardly escape due to poor self-worth that plagues many blacks even across Europe and North-America.


Mark my words, Africa, beginning from Nigeria, will indeed marvel the world in these last days both in indigenous technology beyond the presently conceivable and in economic might in the order of Solomon, for the gospel because God has determined to use the race to showcase His ability to lift men from the dunghill to the palace but it will NEVER be through those who put their confidence in some Abrahamic ancestry but only through the excellency of Christ.

God bless you.

MuttleyLaff:
Dont try and be half as smart.
Especially ater your better later than never. You first pretended not seeing the question and only answering after reminding you

Wasnt you who earlier said Adam was black skinned ni?

"The first one born was red.
His whole body was covered with hair, so they named him Esau [Hairy]."
- Genesis 25:25
cc: PervertProphet, jared007, bodydialect57, Finallydead, MiddleDimension

Hey Muttleylaff, thanks for your invitation.

Concerning Donnie here, I've actually seen his posts for a long time but never wanted to engage him because I perceive no openness to differing perspectives and I think(wish I'm wrong) there's just too much bitter and toxic hate against his fellow humans of other colour. An unchristlike example for any who claims faith in Abraham's God. If the whites were as bad as he portrays, then our hatred for them only shows we have been overcome by evil instead of overcoming evil with love(Rom12:21) and blessing, loving and praying for our enemies.(Mt5:44)
This is not the message of Christ who died for ALL humans to be saved that the good news of the kingdom will be preached in every nation and tribe and tongue which are all well represented in heaven(Rev5:9, Mt24:14)
Donnie makes it sound like we weren't all equally created by God or there is some added recognition God gives to flesh and blood if one is a Jew. Thank God, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile(Gal3:28)
Study the scriptures. God's assessment of the Jewish race as a whole was NEVER good but actually that they were a stiff-necked, rebellious, adulterous and sinful nation(Is1:4). He equated their stubbornness against Him with the demonic sons of Anak whose land they would possess(Deut9:4-7, 13,22-24, 27, Deut31:27-29).
Every single prophet God raised was sent to prophesy against their rebellion again and again. God told Ezekiel they were the most rebellious, even calling them scorpions(Eze2:3-7). Stephen said they had persecuted every single prophet of God and ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit(Acts7:51-52).
The Lord wept over the Jerusalem, where the best Jews were for their unwillingness to follow God and tagged them murderers of prophets(Mat23:37,35).
Even when a Caucasian was, for conscience sake, unwilling to crucify the Son of God, it was the Jews who insisted He must be crucified.(Lk23:4, Mt27:24). Caucasian soldiers would have let the world know the truth of Jesus's resurrection but the Jews would go to any length to resist truth. Because of the Jews, we scarcely have evidence of the Lord's resurrection(Mt28:12-13), which God most of them always hated and persecuted those among them that stood for Him.
Paul was a true Hebrew of Hebrews, even of the elite and most learned, but when he found the excellency of identity in Christ, he counted his Hebrew identity with all that came with it as refuse(Php3:4-9) and he specifically warned to beware of people with this spirit of exalting flesh and blood, calling them dogs(who go back to the vomit of human identity having boast in the flesh instead of the new creation)(Php3:2-3).
Paul further explicitly answers the question whether the Jews are any better than the gentiles in (Rom3:9-18) and in case people like Donnie would think that described gentiles, he specified in Rom3:19 that he described the Jewish race.
When the Jews boasted before God that they were of Abraham's bloodline, He told them Abraham was just another slave of sin who couldn't save any from sin but only the bloodline of the son of God, being pure divinity would save them.(Jn 8:33-36)



Anyone who is rediscovering his Hebrew identity is allowed but he must know what God truly thinks of that race, asides His great mercy to save them from their stiff-necked rebellion.
Donnie seems to think that if we as the black race can identify with Abraham's bloodline, it would give us more dignity. But no!. While there are some among the black race that are truly of Abraham's bloodline, it would add no value before God on them.
That mentality of this whole black Jesus movement whether true or false is also quite a cheap and cowardly escape due to poor self-worth that plagues many blacks even across Europe and North-America.


Mark my words, Africa, beginning from Nigeria, will indeed marvel the world in these last days both in indigenous technology beyond the presently conceivable and in economic might in the order of Solomon, for the gospel because God has determined to use the race to showcase His ability to lift men from the dunghill to the palace but it will NEVER be through those who put their confidence in some Abrahamic ancestry but only through the excellency of Christ.

God bless you.

MuttleyLaff:
Txs. Meet you there, lol

Hey mutt, good day. Let me know when you're good.