₦airaland Forum

Please kindly re-read my previous post. I have modified it and made some very interesting additions before this reply of yours. Feel free to counter them too.

Ihedinobi3:
I don't know what that means. Are you quoting my words back at me? Because if you are, you are in the wrong conversation. You have been hounding me for a while chastising me for not obeying you and abandoning what I teach. So you cannot truly be telling me that I am free to believe and teach what I please, when you yourself have been doing your best to stop me from doing so.

You only see it this way even though you can never bring up any evidence to this from any of my posts. I have NEVER forced you nor anyone else to accept whatever if you are not WILLING to but have suggested my views to you as you have to me. If you perceive any force, perhaps it is the forcefulness of my convincing arguments, otherwise I don't know what it is. If you call my simple suggestions hounding, then you have hounded more people than I have.
Understand that my vision is beyond you. I am aware that others read this and that is why I keep correcting errors, just for the sake of the reader. I love the scriptures and this for the time being is a hobby.

1. An abrupt end is not necessarily the absence of an end, is it? Is the Lord obliged to provide the end that you want?

It shows incoherency in the manual and this would be the only narrative in the gospels that does so. Everone knows a complete narrative when they see one.

2. What "unfounded" my claim?

Friend, you are the one that needs to found such a daring claim against the integrity of scripture not me. I didn't remove anything from the bible, you did. And you will have to, to hold on to your beliefs.

3. How did you know where I derive my claim from? Are you a diviner?

It would be easier to show your source than to ask this question.

Not bothering to respond to this again. I already gave an answer to it.

I'm no way surprised you know you have no scripture anywhere or in the context to refute my claim. Your "answer" doesn't either. Its just a subjective proposition.

The revelation that the Lord was providing for mankind was only made complete through the apostolic writings that are the New Testament.
With the Coming of the Lord Jesus and His Victory by the Cross, the full revelation was given to the Church so that we can finish our job of reaching our full number and full stature in Christ.

Wrong again, the apostles of the early church and prophets only gave us a foundation to build on. That is not the only task of apostles and prophets in general. We still need apostles and prophets who will obviously not lay foundation again but build on it to completion. Until the building is completed and we reach perfection, we need every office(1Cor 3:5-15). You have no scripture that tells us we received full revelation at anytime rather Paul says..we know in part... and all the offices were given to bring us to the fulness of Christ (Eph 4:11), hence will continue till we have this. Again Paul did not recommend his letters to the Ephesian church to give them full revelation but ...the Spirit of wisdom and revelation i.e. the Holy Spirit...(Eph 1:17) knowing that his teaching could only lay a foundation but the Holy Spirit will give yet more. Again some apostolic revelation was not given because the church was not developed yet but were still babies (Heb 5:11-14, Heb 6:1) even though God had released it to the apostles. This would be given by coming apostles when we are able to receive it.

3. So, rather than proving that any gifts of that sort remain today, your somewhat obscure speech actually leads to proof that not only have some gifts been removed from the Church, but in time, all spiritual gifts will be removed from the world with the resurrection of the Church. Millennial believers will learn from the Lord Himself with no human mediation, unlike the Church who prepares herself for her Lord's Return with the gifts that her Lord gave her upon His Ascension

This is not true. Re-read my post. This is properly dealt with. All spiritual offices and gifts remain until perfection in the fullness of Christ in all His attributes is attained(Eph 4:11-14)

2. As for the gifts in Ephesians 4:11, the Apostles and prophets are the ones who gave us the Scriptures. Their work in the Church is done. The evangelist and the pastor-teacher are still needed in the Church to teach the Gospel to unbelievers (for the evangelist) and interpret the Scriptures to fellow believers (for the pastor-teacher). So, those gifts are still in the Church. Other gifts exist to aid these gifts in their work.

Prophecy will never cease until perfection. ...the witness of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy...(Rev 19:10). ....Quench not the Spirit, forbid not prophecy, but test all and hold the good, reject the faulty... (1Thes 5:19-20). The moment we forbid prophecy, we quench the Spirit.

4. About church history, all sorts of people have claimed all sorts of things and pretended all sorts of things. It doesn't mean that any of it was true. Whatever the Bible says is true. What other people claim to be true, whether they be Smith Wigglesworth or Roberts Liardon, is not guaranteed to be true. It may or may not be. If the Scriptures teach that there are no more apostles and prophets in the Church, then anybody who claims that they themselves or others are apostles or prophets is a liar.

You alone and no single scripture teaches that the apostles or prophets ever were removed or finished their work, we only know that the first set of apostles laid the foundation else I challenge you to produce a single scripture showing the removal of these offices before we are perfected in the fullness of Christ. (Eph 4:11-14)

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(KJV) John 5:39

This is another translational error and why the bible will never be perfection. This correctly reads... YOU(omitted in KJV) search the scriptures...they witness of me but you do not come to me. Check other translations for confirmation.
In other words, they missed the whole point of scripture while "following" the scripture just like we also might if not careful, which is to come to Him that is by His Spirit as earlier posted. It actually makes my point not yours.

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 1:24

Yes. Christ through His Spirit in us not just the letter

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
(KJV) John 6:63

Exactly. That is why they can only be spiritually discerned (by the help of the Holy Spirit according to the context of 1Cor 2:14,12) not through the carnal intellect and mere mental exercise of reading.

I've never seen it said in the Bible that anyone wearing the armor of God will cause demons to flee, nor have I seen that the anointing would cause them to flee. Where did you see such a thing? I do see that the unction of God teaches us all things (1 John 2:27).

In the bible. I can assure there's so much more you're yet to see like all of us too until the Spirit opens your inner eye. (Eph 1:17). Demons fled from Jesus for the same reason. (Acts 10:38, Lk 4:18). Did you ever hear of Jesus terrorising demons before He was filled with the Holy Spirit(the anointing according to these texts). We are all supposed to receive the same infilling of the spirit and have the power that goes with it. (Acts 1:

Be assured that because I believe, I have the Holy Spirit, and because I read the Scriptures and have listened to a pastor-teacher, I know His witness on the matter quite well.

One thing to have the Holy Spirit, another to relate with Him. No teacher will take His place nor will scripture. All our understanding of scripture should only make us seek Him personally and grow our relationship else it is useless (Eph 1:17, Jude:20, Jn 14:26)

Conclusion: All in all I am not surprised that you are unable to provide a backing for your arguments against mine from scripture but prefer to read your meanings into it and make unmerited claims so I will hereby desist to reply on this matter for I have done enough from scripture to prove my stance. It is left to the reader then to judge. We meet again on another matter. Btw, be aware that I still agree with part of your doctrine in some of your other posts which I do not correct. Its fun engaging you too.

*Please kindly re-read my previous post. I have modified it and made some very interesting additions before this reply of yours. Feel free to counter them too.

CodeTemplar:
That your signature is cool o.
Big bang 2 A. K. A. redemption by Christ.

Bless you bro.

petra1:
Are you jiggaz? If you are , your post rather raise question which you have avoided to answer. At your spare time kindly read my post again and answer it . Or re-assess if what your post teaches is right or wrong

I'm not. Read my post on this thread of his where I attempt to explain the real meaning of that scripture and refute his misconception. It may give you an accurate perspective.

missjo:
I viewed the post and I thought i responded. Apologies!
Most of the time, I'm multi-tasking while making contributions on the forum.

In view of the quote you shared, i particularly love the bit about doing well to avoid falling into the trap of trying to solve the puzzles in the Word of God. Personally, faith in the cross is all I need.

Christ the source, the cross the means - everything else is just education

No please, no apologies needed. Only wanted to be sure you saw it. Please don't get me wrong, I don't advocate for ignorance, but for utmost diligence in growing in our relationship with God as well as patience to let the Spirit reveal to us ALL unknowns and puzzles at the pace of our growth and not TRYING by just our intellect to do so. We need faith in the cross plus all these listed in (2Pet 1:5-8 ) and more. I suggest knowledge in all its fullness but not through our limited intellect alone which acts as an impure lens but through our RELATIONSHIP with God making all the darkness become light. If you don't grow in your relationship, your knowledge will remain on the same level even if you study so much (2Cor 3:3,15-18). If you grow through fellowship with the Spirit, all knowledge and the bible puzzles becomes easy to understand. That's my template for knowledge.

Ihedinobi3:
This response is only to defend what I have said by addressing legitimate challenges to it in your post. Again, it is not to persuade you to believe what I do. You are free to believe whatever you want. The rewards and consequences of your exercise of the freedom of your will lie with the Lord, not with me. So, if you disagree with me, it is fine by me that you do. I still stand by what I say. I will not change my position to please you, and, as I have said, I don't require that you change yours to please me.

Kindly let me borrow this.

1. Mark 16 ends in verse 8. Everything after that in that chapter is not part of the Bible. It is a gloss, that is, an addition written in by a scribe who was copying the manuscript.

Its absurd to even believe this for its abrupt ending in v8. Second your claim is unfounded and derived from those who could not believe in the power of faith demonstrated through themselves and would rather tamper with scripture. You shortchange yourself if you accept this

2. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV) John 14:12

This Scripture is explained by the following Scriptures:

Not so. The works He did were the signs recorded in John's gospel which did not involve converting men to Christ. Let us first do these works as He said before even defining the greater works for contention sake. Although converting a sinner is more important than just working the miraculous, it was clearly never in the context and does not take away the need for the miraculous.

Consider the insight of Peter the miracle worker..His name through faith in His name has made this man walk..Acts 3:8 and 2Pet1:1...to them who have received like precious faith...

And furthermore the Lord's- whatever you ask in my name, that will be done(Jn 16:23-24) and as well Mk 9:23... ALL things.. and Mk 11:22-24 too.

This name has not been taken away from us nor our faith in it.

3. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues...
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:7,9-10

The following Scriptures frame the above Scripture:


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

That which is perfect is not and can never be the bible though it is the true record of the sacred utterances of God. It is however full of translation errors and other human errors because carnal men translated it just as we both have different views, anyone translating could get it muddied through his lens. Even if there ever could be a perfect translation, God has always wanted to move us from laws written on external platforms to a law written in our hearts by His Spirit-the true new covenant. (Heb 8:10-11, Jn 4:23, 2Cor3:3, both showing that the bible is not God's perfect but the work of the Spirit). Rather the Spirit was given to us to teach us all things (1Cor 2:10-13, Jn 14:26), and remains the only one into whose custody the Lord left us, never the bible(Jn 16:7,13). As God, He comes first before the bible and is sufficient with or without the bible. The perfect here is perfect Love or the Reign of Love, which is why love never ceases, when all these cease. It is the point when the love of God deposited in us reaches its fullness,tipping point and overcomes all imperfections. That happens when we become a perfect man as in Eph 4:13 and put away all childish things and we know FULLY as we are known(no more in part as we ALL do now, even Paul said he only knew in part NOW which is also why I told you even as a minster you must be humble to keep on learning), only in the coming reign of Love will the manifestations of the spirit become unnecessary because we will see face to face. For now that we still ALL see through a vague glass being imperfect, they are necessary for the profit (joint edification in greek) and teaching of all.(1Cor 12:7).
As a matter of fact, inasmuch as i am an avid lover of scripture, finding hardly any loving it more, even scripture is relevant only till this perfect day of the reign of love when Christ rises fully in us.
...We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts(2Pet 1:19)

In other words both scripture and the manifestations Paul spoke of will give way at the same time and to the same cause.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But being true in love ( literal greek), may grow up into him in all things , which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

Your scripture emphasizes my point that perfect love or the reign of love is the point where we no longer need the five-fold offices or the gifts of the spirit. The whole text is littered with "love". Indeed the graces and five-fold offices are toward edification and will always be needed until we no longer need edification that is when we reach perfection which is the fulness of Christ in all His attributes. You and I as well as every believer falls short of this. But anytime you reach this, then tell me the offices and the gifts have been withdrawn and I will believe. There was never any indication in any of your scripture quotations that edification will be done apart from the graces of the Spirit but they do show they should be done together. Paul only suggested that the gifts through love is more excellent than the gifts without(1Cor14). A little research in Church history would show you clearly that no office was ever removed and even the bible NEVER said any office was removed. There were many faithfuls who taught the word accurately with the demonstrations of the Spirit. Read God's Generals, Smith Wigglesworth, Kenneth Hagin who ministered to the SAINTS as well as countless more. If you choose this model for your ministry, you are only shortchanging yourself. You have only one life to live, please live it to the fullest. If you hear the Holy Spirit, I humbly suggest you seek Him on this. Need I also say that we will grow up to him in all things also means power and all Divine attributes

[s]So, the Lord Himself removed the props and supports after the Bible was completed [/s](Hebrews 1:2)

Your text doesn't in any way validate your claim. God still speaks today in His son Jesus Christ through His Spirit dwelling in us as earlier addressed. Bible is not the Son of God, take note.

5. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV) Ephesians 6:12

The above Scripture is framed by the following Scriptures:


4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 6:4-10

Your scripture again proves that as ministers of God we will always need not just the word of truth but the power of God as well and the armor of God. A true minister should be approved in ALL things. Also read 1Cor 4:18-20, Paul shows that power and not word alone is the basis of ministerial authority, when others tried to challenge his doctrine.
If you don't know, let me tell you. Anyone who wears this armor will cause demons to flee at his sight, the anointing of God also causes them to flee and does other supernatural feats.

[s]Conclusion: None of these scriptures teach in any way that we have any business trying to cast out demons from people.[/s]

Conclusion: Since you are well read in scriptures, I recommend you seek the Holy Spirit and hear his witness on this matter. Don't be shortchanged.

As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you like. I don't begrudge you that right. How you exercise it is between you and the Lord. If you don't agree with what I have said, feel free to discard it. But it would be a waste of your time and energy to demand that I discard it too just because you disapprove in some way. I am not responsible to you. I am responsible to the Lord, just as you are.

Again please let me borrow this.

solite3:
[s]@ boled the sin of apostasy is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross as all sufficient for a man's justification. Such sin can only be commited by a person who is yet to come to the saving faith of Jesus.

The sin of apostasy can only be commited by an unsaved man.

Anyone who abandons the Christian faith was not really a christian from the start, this is what John and other apostles taught and what Jesus himself taught. Jesus said my sheep knows me and they hears me. Anyone that wouldnt hear Jesus is not his sheep, there is nothing like a sheep that wouldnt hear Jesus.
That professing Christian who is living a life of sin is definitely not a christian.

So the issue of a Christian losing his salvation because of sin has totally been cancelled by John.
[/s]

ALL WRONG.

Giving you the benefit of doubt that you aren't one of those who are not open-minded and objective enough to change preconceived notions, but that you are only in this exchange to both teach and learn, I'll give you a head start on this but you still need to do further research on the subject of apostasy.
First off, the word apostasy is not actually an English word but actually derived from a greek word 'apostasia' which only means to denounce an INITIALLY held faith or belief (not just to disbelieve or reject a faith) and is the word used by Paul in informing about the precedents to the coming of the Lord in 2Thes 2:3...except there comes a falling away (apostasia in greek) first.... In Christian doctrine, not only is it possible for a GENUINELY converted believer (2Pet 2:1,20-22) to turn away( Heb 6:4-6,10:26, 1Cor 15:2, Col 1:23)but we are in fact awaiting a MAJOR apostasy(many believers) before the Lord comes as Paul says in 2Thes 2 and also prophesied by the Lord (Mt 24:10-13, note that offended actually is translated from a greek word which means to stumble or fall into deceit) and God Himself said (Heb 10:38, if it was impossible, God wouldn't say "if" ) and as a matter of fact a teaching like yours here is why many will, making them lose guard and become careless not building up their faith for the evil day, which is why I will advise you cease to teach such or else bring the blood of many on your head(Mt 5:19, Jam3:1). The whole book of Hebrews was written only because of this possibility else it was useless to write the book since they couldn't have fallen as well as every other warning in scripture to believers to this effect. So please study this subject in scripture again in the meekness of Christ and stop teaching this.
May the Lord give you understanding.

solite3:
If you took your time to read op, you wouldnt come to this erroneous conclusion.
People who the writer of hebrews were addressing were Jewish, professing Christians who doubted, the superiority of Christ and his all sufficient sacrifice. The sin that will make one harden to the point of Unrepentance is rejecting the counting the blood of Christ as unclean even after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

The sin unto death doesnt mean the sinner can not be forgiven, it only mean that the death consequence would not be reversed no matter the prayer.
People accused paul of preaching grace so that sin will continue but that is the opposite of what paul preached.
Any preacher that say people should continue in sin because grace has come is a false preacher.

These were christian jews(not just superficially professing) who knew the superiority of Jesus Christ over Moses already but faced persecution, so Paul had to go over again to strengthen them not to yield as that superiority of His covenant also meant greater penalty if violated. Heb 10:28-29. That was the whole purpose of Paul doing a comparison in the earlier chapters, just to show them the logic for a greater penalty if they succumbed to the temptation of apostasy, not because they didn't already know this superiority.

On the issue of sin unto death, let us establish two things.
First, there is clearly revealed in scripture, the fact that God may discipline his children with terminal sickness which would be irreversible just to help them make things right and be forgiven before they exit this world.

Second, that there is a sin of apostasy that a believer can commit which will make him lose eternal life in his spirit and be damned to condemnation irreversibly. (Heb 6:4-6, 10:26-27, 2Pet 2:3,13,20-22).

The next is to decide which was meant in 1Jn5:16. To do this, we may need to establish the context. In 1Jn 5:11-12, we see that eternal life is life in this context as well eternal death is death in v16 as also in 1Jn 3:14-15. Even Paul does same in Rom5:17, 6:15-16,21-23. Also, John had already spoken to them about such believers who sin unto death in 1Jn 2:19. Now here in 1Jn 5:16, he says do not pray for them because such are irredeemable, consistent with Heb 6:4-6,10:26-27

Ihedinobi3:
Hello solite3.

I think that your second post has it right.

I will add that the Lord Jesus did not say that anyone actually cast out demons in His Name. He said that some people will claim to have done so, in order to claim some association with Him.

True. But if you know the shining light of His presence, you will know that no one can lie lie before Him but only learn. He himself never denied their claims but condemned their persons based on another indictment.

[s]Suffice to say that ever since the completion of the Bible, no human being has had the authority to drive demons out of a physical body. It was one of those signs that were necessary to establish the authority of those who were bringing new revelation to the Church. That is, the ability to exorcise evil spirits was one of those "badges of authority" that the Lord gave to the believers of the apostolic age so that their message could be accepted by anyone with a heart for the Truth. They were carrying new revelations not found in the Old Testament, so it was necessary that God give them something to demonstrate that they were really His Emissaries.
[/s]

Once the New Testament was completed, therefore, the abilities were removed so that we could focus on their Message rather than on the signs of authority that God gave them. So, even being a believer today does not mean that we can exorcise evil spirits, no. We cannot. If anyone is troubled with demon possession, the only way to help such a person is to give them the Gospel, if they are willing to hear it, and pray for them. It is important to keep in mind that demons can only enter a human body with the human being's consent, so it is the one who has an evil spirit who must be willing to lose it in order for the Lord to remove it from them.

[s]Clearly, if a believer has no authority today to engage evil spirits directly, an unbeliever has no chance at all.[/s]

Please read Mk 16:17-18 , Jn 14:12, 1Cor 12:7,9,10, 1Cor 12:31, 1Cor 14:1, Eph 6:12 and stop spreading these deusions of demons that shortchange believers and keep men bound. Believers will always have this right from God and all may be empowered by the Spirit

As for what Matthew 7:21-22 teaches, it is only that it is possible to deceive oneself into thinking that the Lord Jesus will accept one into His Kingdom when one has never believed in Him here on earth. There are lots of people who are thinking that they are doing all sorts of things for the Lord right now, although they don't care about the Gospel at all. One spoke to you on this thread too. You will also find multitude "pastors" and "prophets" and "apostles" and "bishops" who fancy themselves "anointed exorcists" (they are so popular that it is impossible that you haven't heard about them) who do not even know the Gospel. They are the sort of people that the Lord Jesus was speaking of. They are unbelievers who are fooling themselves with fanciful ideas of miraculous power. They do not cast out demons of any sort. They do not do any true miracles of any sort. They are full of tricks and lies, deceiving and being deceived. When they stand before the Lord at the Judgment of the Great White Throne, they will receive in themselves the just reward of their wickedness.

While there are many fake exorcists who actually never cast out demons from people but do a make-believe, it doesn't take anything away from those empowered by the Lord Jesus just as fake mints don't take any thing away from the real

budaatum:
That depends on what you mean by "demons". I know a person currently seeking to have bet9ja demon driven out of him.

budaatum:
That depends on what you mean by "demons". I know a person currently seeking to have bet9ja demon driven out of him.

MuttleyLaff:
solite3, forget about all that beautiful good and dandy saving thing and/or not saved in the first place for the moment. All I want you to do is not straddle the fence, but to tell from your understanding if a non believer can cast out a devil and/or demons in the name of Jesus or not, hmm? People do things they really dont believe in, and get surprised when they get rude awakening shocking results. Case in point, the witch of Endor. Obviously a scammer plus trickster, but she got a surprising, frigthening and unpleasant discovery on that with King Saul, lol.

solite3:
well, muttley the witch of Endor wasnt a scammer atleast the bible never said so. Demon spirit recognise the truth, for example they knew who Jesus was and called him so until Jesus silence them, in the same vein, they must have know that God had rejected saul and only rebroadcasted what samuel said when he was alive which saul already knew.

Ihedinobi3:
I actually had a long conversation with another believer with respect to this yesterday. John MacArthur used that verse to teach that some believers will end up in the Lake of Fire. That, of course, is a major reason that I dislike that man's ministry. John 3:18 is not confusing at all. Only those who believe will be saved. Only those who don't are condemned. It has nothing to do with casting out demons.

The point that our Lord was making in that passage was that if you don't believe in Him, you cannot be saved, no matter what other qualification you are persuaded that you can present before Him at the Judgment of the Great White Throne.

This might help?
Quote from another post on this issue

Preacher, you're already guilty of what you're insinuating. You've taken preconceived notions and muddied this passage in them. We should not hurriedly seek to unite all scripture under the banner of preconceived notions, rather let us seek God and grow in a personal relationship with Him and as we do, some incoherences will seamlessly fit together.
Now your assumption that these are unconverted people is wrong because these are people who according to the Lord had at some point accepted Him as Lord(They had said to him Lord..v21). They had even developed their faith as far as casting out demons, prophesying and done miracles which many have not even reached to today(the unconverted cannot do these in His name, even the lying signs of the occult pastors are not done in Jesus' name). You might then ask why He said He never knew them. Well this knowing is in the order of Adam knowing his wife (Gen 4:1) to give birth to fruit of the womb which is the fruit the Lord referred to in v18- 20 of the passage. Again, their failure to enter the kingdom is not, as u have supposed with a notion unfounded in this passage, as a result of depending on their works but rather as the Lord said because they "practised lawlessness"( v23 in literal greek). Again, the will of the Father which the Lord spoke of here that they were wanting in is not found in some other text but in this same text which is to follow the narrow way that leads to bearing good/desirable fruit, paraphrasing. (v13-19), corroborated in (Jn 15:8 )which only few are ever willing to follow. So as i said, its more important to grow in our relationship with God and with time things will gradually begin to fall in place rather than try to solve all bible puzzles at our current level which could lead to false doctrines and loss of intimate relationship with God.

A

A

missjo:
Are you contrasting the workings of the cross with the workings of the law of gravity?

Really Muttley?

You didn't seem to view my response to your post on Jesus' death for three days. Don't get confused by all these carnal interpretations. Here is a quote from me in another post that might solve your puzzle

Preacher, you're already guilty of what you're insinuating. You've taken preconceived notions and muddied this passage in them. We should not hurriedly seek to unite all scripture under the banner of preconceived notions, rather let us seek God and grow in a personal relationship with Him and as we do, some incoherences will seamlessly fit together.
Now your assumption that these are unconverted people is wrong because these are people who according to the Lord had at some point accepted Him as Lord(They had said to him Lord..v21). They had even developed their faith as far as casting out demons, prophesying and done miracles which many have not even reached to today(the unconverted cannot do these in His name, even the lying signs of the occult pastors are not done in Jesus' name). You might then ask why He said He never knew them. Well this knowing is in the order of Adam knowing his wife (Gen 4:1) to give birth to fruit of the womb which is the fruit the Lord referred to in v18- 20 of the passage. Again, their failure to enter the kingdom is not, as u have supposed with a notion unfounded in this passage, as a result of depending on their works but rather as the Lord said because they "practised lawlessness"( v23 in literal greek). Again, the will of the Father which the Lord spoke of here that they were wanting in is not found in some other text but in this same text which is to follow the narrow way that leads to bearing good/desirable fruit, paraphrasing. (v13-19), which only few are ever willing to follow, corroborated in (Jn 15:8 ). Also, a major challenge is that you do not differentiate between making heaven which is solely by possession of God's seed in the human spirit(grace) and entering the kingdom of heaven, a quality of life- living the heavenly life here on earth as in Mt6:10(the subject matter here) which is by the choices we make here on earth and lifestyle. So as i said, its more important to grow in our relationship with God and with time things will gradually begin to fall in place rather than try to solve all bible puzzles at our current level which could lead to false doctrines and loss of intimate relationship with God.

MuttleyLaff:
petra1, forget all that, just tell, and answer the question about, who are the people in Matthew 7:22 above then that did exploits in Jesus' name erhn petra1?

I think my post answers your question.

Do you think God is proud of you when you point men to a man. Pay the price by God's grace to see Him manifested in your life so thet men will see Him in you. I assure you, what God has done with this vessel is nothing compared to what He wants to do through each of us if we can take grace to pay the price. Stop pointing men to a man. Its an insult to the sacrifice Jesus made to be manifested through you. DanXplore

MisterKings:
I am christian and I try my best to do what is right (which is close to impossible with all this nonsense flying around). I truly wish I can get the kind of encounter you had....see him, let him talk to me. I even pray silently for this....I dont want to be a pastor or anything like that I just want to have that encounter with him, tell me things people dont know, reveal wisdom to me etc. But be like say my sin too much for that kind of prayer to be answered or I havent really climbed the holy ladder yet.

My friend, the only way out of compromised living is to have a real encounter with God as you desire and the only sure way to have this encounter is to not let the condemnation that comes with your flaws stop you from persevering in hope, prayer, and faith until you have the encounter you desire, God puts so much hope on the imperfect who can seek Him until He brings perfection and not quit until so

jesusjnr:
Well said bro.

They think they are blessed because of Earthly riches, that means that Peter was cursed.

Luke 12:15 (KJV)

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

The Pharisees would have also thought the same thing when Jesus was calling out their covetousness and materialistic mindset, that they were being persecuted.

Luke 16:14-15 (KJV)

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So yeah, maybe in that sense they are being persecuted for covetouness sake. Let them see it as a call for them to repent of it as Benny Hinn recently did, but be looking for excuses to continue in such Antichrist' doctrine.

God bless.

Grace and peace to you brother.
I saw your post on the gospel of mammon. The truth is that the men of God of bible times chose to be denied material things not because they didn't know God of abundance but because they had a different value system. They wanted to be the richest and greatest in the kingdom rather than on earth. It was a question of choice between two goods. They chose the greater at the cost of the less. However today's christianity sacrifices the greater for the less. Thank our Lord who is bringing a reformation very soon to the church where the true apostolic doctrine the Lord gave the church will be emphasized with great power, glory, holiness, righteousness, greater wealth in the hands of faithful stewards and judgements to correct us from these demonic doctrines and materialistic spirit all over the churches before the evil day of the beast. I bless our loving Father for what he has done and the greater He is uet to do. I pray He finds us as worthy instruments to use in this great endtime work.

What we call persecution today is a far cry from what the apostles knew. Largely because the quality of our christian lives is incomparable to theirs. But all that really pursue the high calling of God for perfect righteousness will face serious persecution from all contrary elements around them. 2Tim 3:12, 2:11-12

Having known that fullness is provided for us, we must also know how to enter into it. We do so by dying and losing our existence completely in Christ by His grace, and having only Christ expressed in us.

Blabbermouth:
Yh, you are right.
I asked this question because of a personal experience I had as a newbie born again;When I became born again, I was totally dead to some kinds of sin and no matter what happened, I just cannot sin such sins.
Yet, there were some I fell into time to time when temptations came strong and it gave me that perk of "Oh no!!! LORD, I don't want to fail you." And I concluded in my thoughts "Maybe I haven't died enough."
It had caused me a lot of drag backs then and I wished I had avoided it. Why do these kinds of things happen to new believers? Many have gone cold and abandoned life in the spirit because of this.

Most times its not the new believers fault but the lack of proper teaching in today's christianity. Have you passed through the necessary baptisms that bring about the manifestation of the christ-life. If you haven't, it will be a continual struggle and even when we lose some habits, there will still be a lack of the Presence of Christ. First is the infilling of the spirit which gives you power to superimpose the spirit on the flesh (if you get the genuine one with divine and not mechanical blind "faith" tongues). Second is the baptism of fire which sets your flesh nature on fire, burning it away and literally turns you to a brand new creation under Christ. Pray for each of these until you get them and see the turn around in your life

Praivit0:
These are other translations of Matthew 28


T4T translation. 1- After ◄the Sabbath/the Jewish day of rest► ended, on Sunday morning at dawn, Mary from Magdala town and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2- Suddenly there was a strong earthquake. At the same time an angel from God came down from heaven. He went to the tomb and rolled the stone away from the entrance so that everyone could see that the tomb was empty. Then he sat on the stone.


Easy English translation.  1-   Early, on the first day of the week, Mary from Magdala and Mary the mother of James got up early. They went to the hole in the rock where Joseph had buried the dead body of Jesus.

2- At that moment, the ground moved about. One of God’s angels came from heaven and he went to the rock. He rolled the big stone away from outside the hole and then he sat on top of the big stone.

The word dawn used by Matthew is a Greek word which means to begin to illuminate or for light to come upon.



This disproves your claim of it being on Saturday evening and of it being hours before Mary got there, with these scriptures it must have happened minutes before she got there. 


If you don't have scripture back ups for your claim then don't bother quoting me.

Read again. Never disputed what the scripture said. They got to the tomb at dawn (the beginning of the 2ND half cycle of the first day of the week) and found he was ALREADY risen(risen since saturday evening, the beginning of the 1ST half cycle of the first day of the week by jewish count) without rolling away the stone as he didn't need to, not that he was JUST rising. The angel rolled the stone away for them to show them he WASN'T there. What he did between those twelve hours, the bible doesn't say there and we don't even need to bother about that (though it could be when he went and preached to the spirits in Abrahams bosom (1Pet 3:19) OR not). But we know he then appeared to them on the way to meet the disciples. Their getting to the tomb at dawn doesn't in any way disprove his rising before then, get it?

Lack of such understanding makes many think because ministers are anointed or financial successful and influential, they are therefore right in whatever they do and approved of by God. No, Saul and Samson are examples of the fact that Gods anointing is not an approval of a man but an empowering to fulfill an assignment. What you do with your anointing, tells us who you are inside. Many today have sadly been proven to be lovers of vainglory and honour/worship of men rather than lovers of God and truth. But in the tribunal of Christ, we will know who God approves and many who are first will be last and many who are least will be first

missjo:
Hi LordReed, it's been a minute since I contributed to religious discussions here but please allow me to share what I have studied on this. The topic of the death & resurrection is of great interest to me.

First of all, the answer to your question is an emphatic YES, the prophesy of three mornings(daylight) and three evenings(night) was fulfilled LITERALLY.

By the old Jewish system of days & nights, a new day began at sunset (6pm) instead of midnight (12am) as we observe presently.
Jesus the Christ died on a wednesday between the hours of 12noon and 3pm (Matt 27:45-56).

How can we be sure it was a Wednesday?
Because of this passage:
John 19:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The Sabbath being referred to here does not speak of the regular Jewish Sabbath of Saturday, but rather the high day of the passover (as emphasized by John in his use of parenthesis to explain) also called a Sabbath. This "high day" was held on Thursdays.

Between 3pm and 6pm of Wednesday is the period where Joseph of Arimathea besought Pilate to release the body of Jesus to him for burial (Matthew 27:57-61). All of this could very well have taken approximately 3hours and by the time Jesus was laid in the tomb, it was already a little bit past 6pm of Wednesday.

Now if we start counting from 6pm on Wednesday (remember a new day starts at 6pm), then:
6pm Wednesday - 6pm Thursday = Day 1
6pm Thursday - 6pm Friday = Day 2
6pm Friday - 6pm Saturday = Day 3
Every day of the above is complete with 24hours of evening and morning (Note that the old testament bible records a full day by referring to it as evening and morning, never as morning and evening; another proof that a new day starts at 6pm).

The particular time and hour that Jesus arose can not be ascertained because no one witnessed it. The soldiers who kept watch outside the tomb only witnessed the earthquake and the angel rolling back the stone covering of the tomb which happened to grant Mary Magdalene and Mary mother of James, access into the sepulchre (this happened very early on Sunday morning).

John 20:1 calls it the first day of the week (Sunday) and he wrote that it was still dark (probably about 5am).
Mathew 28:1 says it in much the same way calling it the end of the Sabbath (Saturday) as it began to dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday).

As at the time these two women got there, he had already risen some time after sunset on Saturday evening without the knowledge of the soldiers outside who stood guard. As far as they were concerned, the body of Jesus was still in the tomb by the time the two Marys got there at about 5am on Sunday morning.

Fairly accurate presentation but note that , the high day sabbath was a sabbath not fixed on thursdays but any day each year the first day of the feast of passover/unleavened bread happens to fall on. Thursday that year (30ad), on other years it falls on other days. Secondly the jews count evening and then morning for a 24hr cycle till today, its not an old system of counting days. And please know that you're accurate. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise with vague explanations no matter how confident they sound for our God is a God of precision and detail. You may look at my previous posts on this.

LordReed:
According to your timeline the women who were to dress his body did not go to the grave for 3 days - Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Why does the text not say so? The text gives the almost unquestionable idea that they only had one day, Saturday, of separation.

In succession to the previous post. Yes, they literally had only one day in between two sabbaths, thursday evening to friday evenig to buy the spices and saturday evening to sunday evening to embalm His body

Praivit0:
I agree perfectly that Jesus died on Wednesday after 3pm and I know He was put in the grave very late, but I can't ascertain the time, cos the scripture didn't say.

However I don't agree that He rose on Saturday evening, cos all the scriptures talk about the first day of the week. Matthew even went further to buttress his point that it was at dawn.
Matthew 28: 1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

 2  And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


If it was at dawn as spoken by Matthew then it can't be Saturday evening. Dawn is between 4-7am depending on the environment.

Yeah bro. Consider one thing i wrote in my post. That's the key. Jews don't count days the way we do. A jew's day begins at sundown( first part of day) and at sunrise is the beginning of the latter part of the day. That's to say, they count evening and then morning, for a full 24hour cycle. That means weekly sabbath begins friday evening and ends saturday evening. That also means first day of the week begins Saturday evening and ends sunday evening. Read the texts with this in mind and it all makes perfect sense. Take note that Jesus had already risen long before dawn of Sunday so whem they came to His tomb, in all accounts, He was not there but appeared to them on their way after they were intimated by the angel at the tomb

jiggaz:
Nah

Quite an unskillful analysis by the author that doesn't make reference to facts but mere sense knowledge and preconceived notions. The whole letter to Hebrews maintains a uniform theme - a warning to hebrew believers who were persecuted by jews for their faith and tempted to recant, not to do so. He made them to understand the reward before them if they endured the persecution to the end (Heb 3:14, 6:11). No letter was ever written by the apostles to the outsiders as that would be untoward but was written to believers(Heb 5:12, 12:22-24, 13:1,17,21). Now here in Heb 10:26, he warns the believers that going back from faith will lead to perdition, as he did in Heb 6: 4-6 and again in Heb 12:25-29). All are just a pieces of a single whole letter that must be taken together. Sadly though, its always difficult to help people like the author see their error because they are often puffed up lacking the meekness of Christ. I can only hope both author and OP are not as such.

LordReed:
It does not preclude it from being the weekly Sabbath. Besides there is no description of the events that suggests they rested for 3 intervening days. The bible clearly states they rested on the Sabbath day, singular denotation.

Ihedinobi3:
Yes it was. Was the Lord Jesus in the Grave for a literal 72 hours, not one second more or less? No. But the Bible did not say that He would be. It only said that He would be in the Grave for three days and three nights. That was counted differently in that culture than it is today. Even today, we are hardly so hard and fast about these things. Today we say, "I spent the whole day there just waiting to see him," and fully expect the person we're talking to to understand that we were not counting the seconds to make sure that it was exactly 24 hours.

The point of the three days and three nights was to emphasize that the Lord Jesus's Body would not "see corruption," that is, it would not decay. Decay was culturally accounted back then to begin from the fourth day (see John 11:39). The Lord was to be in the grave long enough for it to be clear that He was truly dead, but not so long that His Body, which was sinless, would begin to decay. Again, this is a cultural thing, since, with our scientific obsession with precision today, we sometimes consider a body to begin to decay right from the moment of death. But if we were to be absolute, then decay starts even while we are alive whenever cells die and are not replaced in our bodies.

In the time that the Lord lived, a day was counted if a part of it was experienced, so although the Lord rose from the dead early in the morning of the third day, the fact that He was still in the tomb by the third day made it a complete three days for Him to be dead.

Sometimes, the Scriptures do use "precision counting" to make a point. For example, in Revelation 11:9, the two witnesses are said to be dead for three days and a half. This is deliberate because it is a symbol for the three and a half years of the Great Tribulation that follow their death. Otherwise, day counts in the Bible followed the culture of the day.

Greetings all. Yes , The Lord was in the grave for EXACTLY, LITERALLY 3 days and 3 nights just as He said. Our God is not vague about these things but sometimes tradition or some veil in our minds distorts his word. In His death, God fulfilled a million and one prophecies all at the same time. He gave up the ghost at exactly the same time the hebrews killed the passover lamb (the ninth hour from sunrise- around 3pm), Wednesday afternoon in our calendar, because He was the Passover Lamb. He was put in the grave at sundown, which begins a new day for the jews and on this particular feast, a sabbath (He 'rested' in the grave on a Sabbath) (Wednesday Evening). He spent wedneday evening to saturday evening in the grave/belly of the earth(3 complete days and 3 complete nights) and rose from the grave on saturday evening, which begins a new day(for the jews who count evening first, then morning) and in this case the first day of the week( He literally rose from the dead with a new covenant just at the beginning of a new week) forever abolishing the old in the old week and many other prophetic coincidences. It was a deliberate misconstruing of jewish tradition by compromised elements to fix His death on friday claiming that Saturday was the sabbath before which he died in order to make God a liar eventually and the church over the generations has ignorantly bought this lie. The date that fulfills all this is traced to 30 A.D. by the way.

Ihedinobi3:
In other words, I'm not on Nairaland to be taught anything. That does not mean that I cannot learn here, but what I learn and how I learn is exactly the same as what a soldier in combat learns.

I have grown quite wary of people who seek to associate with me, especially when they do so in order to "correct" my teaching. Suffice to say that it is unlikely that I will ever allow that to happen unless I am persuaded by the Scriptures themselves that I am in error somewhere. And I have been studying the Bible since childhood.

That is why I refuse to let anyone "correct" my teaching. If you do not agree with what I teach, that is fine by me. If you need me to explain it or prove that the Bible does teach what I say, I will go as far as is reasonable to do so, but if you try to "correct" it, I will not let you.

I have already been ministered to and am growing more and more able to take care of my own self, so I generally don't need anyone to "correct" me on the field.

This has been our issue all along and is why I will cease to reply your post on this matter. You may sugarcoat this but fact is you are not willing to learn from anyone here except your mentor you spoke of. I know I only know very little and am very willing to learn from even a little child if he knows something I don't and I have learnt things from people I have ministered to. God doesn't give you ministry because your knowledge is impeccable but so you may grow in the knowledge of Him as you also teach. You have a lot to learn in this journey brother, we all do. This character of yours is a weightier issue than just correct/wrong doctrine which God is more concerned about. We all have spots and are therefore expected to first acknowledge them and then pray until we receive grace to conform to His spotless image. Do this and you will be greater in His kingdom than just one having knowledge (1Cor 8:1-3)

There are times when I do fall into error, yes, but that is not normal to me, and I generally self-correct. I don't remember any instance where I didn't catch my own error.

If you have not been corrected by others even if its those who know less and you only self-correct, you are not worthy to correct others.

I do hope that some of the people I converse with will end up carrying seeds of Truth in their heart that may be watered by other encounters that they have with other servants of God so that they too will eventually be set free from the lies that have captured them, but I don't expect or insist on that possibility.

You may have served this medicine to others and also from time to time need it from others, that's why we are a body

In fact, it is a very rare situation where people who love the Truth discuss it with each other resulting in greater understanding and agreement among all parties involved.

when you really love truth, you will HATE your ego if it ever comes between you and truth.

I fight now to teach what I am convinced is what the Bible actually says. I am careful, very careful to make sure that that is the case. When I am not sure, I make the effort to avoid teaching it. So, whenever you read anything I write on this platform, be sure that I have looked at it from all the angles I can find in the Bible.

We can look from all angles, think we're right, and still be wrong. When we know this, we will no longer trust our most conscientious judgement but only the Spirit and then will given deeper mysteries which only the Spirit gives.

In this matter that we are discussing, I do not believe that you are right at all. I am totally convinced that I interpreted 1 John 5:16 correctly. I have attempted to explain to you why I am convinced that my interpretation is correct, but obviously you do not accept my arguments. That is fine by me. You are not obliged to agree with me, especially if doing so violates your conscience. However, the Truth is a very precious thing. It is the food, the sustenance of the children of God bought by very Precious Blood. Whenever anyone teaches it erroneously, it poisons the food. That means that the children are poisoned when they receive it. God does not take such a thing lightly. There are no stronger warnings in the Bible against anything than false teaching. Two whole letters were written in the New Testament against false teachers, and our Lord Jesus gave very stringent warnings against false teaching in Luke 17.

This matters to me as a pastor-teacher, and I'll freely tell you that at a point in my life, I really did not want this gift. It is a great gift to be given to anyone, the greatest gift given today in the Church now that Apostles and Prophets have been removed from the Church. But it is the most dangerous gift to have.

Whoever taught you this. I'll just skip this.

As I said, the sin unto death is actually a very well documented divine discipline in the Bible. It happens on a corporate and also on an individual scale, with the Lord first warning the recipients with mild punishments regarding their bad witness and then steadily escalating His warnings and judgments until He kills or destroys them from the earth. That is what He did to the nations Israel and Judah, what He did to whole houses descended from one patriarch or another (the house of Eli, for example), what He did to King Saul, what He did to the man in 1 Corinthians 5, what He did to Ananias and Sapphira, and what He did to Hymenaeus and Alexander, and to the Corinthian church because of the Lord's Supper. It's very well documented.
You don't have to take my word for it. You can read the Bible for yourself. You obviously have.

I always affirmed sin unto terminal sickness as part of the discipline of God, you didn't need to go through all this. But just as you cannot attach it to Lk 12:10, Heb 6:4, Heb 10:24, so you cannot attach this to 1Jn 5:16. So avoid this text when you teach on the Lord's discipline.

If the Lord does discipline His children right up to the point of killing them when they continue to sin grievously without confessing, then it is only to be expected that that is what John would mean in that verse.

This is illogical. The fact that there is Gods judgement of terminal sickness doesn't automatically mean that john was speaking of that. There are other truths taught as well in scripture. As a matter of fact, John had spoken of the sin of apostasy previously in 1Jn 2:19 and told them here in 1Jn 5:16 not to pray for one who has already committed this sin because they are irredeemable as explained in earlier posts.

If the Scriptures are clear that one does not "sin unto the loss of eternal life," then that is not what John can be expected to mean in that verse.

No. This is your misconception. Whatever is not of faith is sin and all unrighteousness is sin. Apostasy/Blasphemy against the Spirit is called the unforgivable SIN in (Mk 3:28-29), the willful SIN in (Heb 10:26, 29) and SIN unto death in 1Jn 5:16. In other words it is many times called SIN(not just unbelief, though that wouldn't change anything) and is the ONLY sin that can causes loss of eternal life or transfers the doer from the realm of life to the realm of death hence sin unto death.

Ihedinobi3:
Perhaps I misunderstood your challenge, but it seemed to me that you were saying that I was wrong to say that the sin unto death was a discipline meted out by the Lord to a believer who is sinning in a grievous and open way. That is what I have been answering.

My response is that John was not speaking of committing any kind of sin that would lead to loss of eternal life, since there is no such thing. John himself teaches throughout that letter that even believers sin, and that when we do, we ought to confess our sin to the Lord and accept His Forgiveness and leave it in the past and keep advancing in our Faith. He was clear too that we ought not to sin at all, and that our Salvation is secure as long as we believe (see Chapter 2 especially for this). What he says about death in Chapter 3 is indeed in the context of Salvation, of being part of the Church, but that is different from what he says in Chapter 5 about sinning unto death.

I am treating all of the Bible as one document. What John speaks of is the same thing that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians and that James speaks of in his own letter. However, if you want to deal only with the context of John, then you cannot ignore what is being said in that particular statement in order to make it the same as what he says in another part of his letter. The fact that he mentioned death before is not proof that his mention of it here is in the same sense.

If John was saying that we should not intercede for any believer who is apostatizing, then how does that agree with the rest of the Bible? We are told to be careful to avoid associating with believers who are sinning arrogantly and publicly. It only follows that when the Lord responds to their foolishness with a grievous discipline, we ought not to intercede for them, since it will only oppose the Lord's Will, if we do. We can only pray for the Lord to heal the suffering that He has inflicted when they repent just as James and Paul teach in James 5 and 2 Corinthians 2 respectively. But we can also pray that a believer who is sinning in that manner can be brought by the Lord to a humble repentance so that they do not end up either losing all of their eternal reward through the sin unto death or apostasy. That would agree with the spirit of the Bible. It can even occasion discipline that will bring such a believer to their senses. We are not told then to not pray for those weak believers who are sinful and stumbling (see Jude1:22-23, for example).

This is what I have said repeatedly to you. I don't demand that you agree. I am only explaining to you what I believe the Bible teaches and what I teach. If you don't agree with it, I cannot do more than I have done. But I certainly will not do less by choosing to stop believing it just because you disapprove. I hope that you can understand that.

Good. At least you're back on the bone of contention. I'm doing this, giving you the benefit of doubt that you aren't one of those who can't admit to a slight mistake, expecting Christlike maturity from your end, at least from your posts. From my first reply to you, I acknowledged that your general understanding of doctrine is balanced ENOUGH, at least to keep you on the right track, I won't have if I didn't ALREADY believe in line with most of what you believe. But the problem in this case is not a wrong doctrine as i already share that same belief you have but a wrong scripture you use for a right doctrine. Now as regards to who should believe what the bible says, i think its relative between us. If John referred to natural death, he would have asked us not to pray for that only on the condition that the person does not repent or God does not permit just like Paul did in 1Cor 5 and which James says that we should confess our sin before prayer is made. Now clearly, no condition was attached and that is because it is in the same line with Lk12:10, Heb 10:28 and Heb 6:4 which all maintain the same unconditional tone. All these scriptures are what the bible teaches, so my taking them together as fellow witnesses shows that I agree with scriptural teaching and I am not bringing a false doctrine. The point in john is simple, without condition, he says don't pray for it because it is the sin that will never be forgiven and there is no sacrifice for it. Again you have not shown any basis from his context to believe that John meant natural death but I have shown that spiritual death was meant from the context in 1Jn 5:11-12, life is to eternal life as death is to eternal death, as also throughout his letter. You can choose to take it in light of what James taught(which I know it is not) but I have chosen to take in light of the three scriptures aforementioned. So both of us are scriptural(although you keep making it look like it isn't from scripture that i am confirming it) but only one of us is right, so I leave it to the Holy Spirit to reveal as he has already done to me. In the end, I am not correcting your doctrine but your choice of scripture passage for the doctrine and I also don't demand you agree with me but I am only showing what scripture really means. God bless.

Ihedinobi3:
Regarding argument, I generally expect to be challenged about what I teach, and I don't mind the challenge. I much prefer being asked politely for clarification, but I don't choose my audience. There are those too who are offended by any allusion to teaching authority on my part, and they respond with very offensive challenges to what I say. It just comes with the territory, so I don't mind if you want to debate any given point in my submissions. This part of my ministry necessitates that in more than a few cases.

Regarding James 5, as I said before, prayer for those who are suffering the sin unto death is only sanctioned when they themselves return from their bad behavior. If you remember what we learn from 1 Corinthians 5, you can see that such people are supposed to be excluded from the assembly until they stop sinning so blatantly. The example in 1 Corinthians 5 was of a man who was openly parading his father's wife (very likely ex-wife) as his wife. He may have even married her (probably had, judging by how they accepted them in the assembly), but this was a terrible thing to do. Not even unbelievers would do such a thing with a straight face. In other words, this was an open sin, a failure that was out in the open, and one in which the believer in question was indulging with no remorse. A similar example would be a believer who is openly dishonest in business and is not shy of it, but still comes to the assembly to ostensibly encourage others in the Truth. That is a terrible witness to the Lord. Allowing such a thing would communicate that we approve of it, and, since we as a group are together ostensibly for the Lord, that the Lord does too. For this reason, the church is supposed to remove the person from among them and refuse to associate with him until he stops what he is doing wrong that is giving the Lord such a bad name.

The passage in James 5 is concerned with the return of such a believer. When he realizes that his suffering is from the Lord and confesses his sin to the Lord, he can go to the pastor-teacher(s) in charge of the assembly and ask to be brought back into the church. In the days of the Apostles, at that substantive time in history, oil had medical properties (it still does, but we don't recognize it as much), so it was applied in medical situations. So the pastor-teacher was to intercede for the repentant believer and give what medical help he could and receive him back into the assembly. That is to say, intercession was only done because he had quit his sin.

This dovetails with what John teaches in 1 John 5. We are not commanded to or encouraged to intercede for someone who is sinning openly, in a way that gives a bad witness about the Lord. That person is courting trouble with the Lord and we are rather to isolate them spiritually and leave the Lord to sort that out. That is what we are taught in the Bible.

As for the sin that cannot be forgiven, it is unbelief. That is the only sin that costs us eternal life. If we refuse to believe the Gospel, we will not be saved. If we first believe and then turn around and stop believing, we will not be saved. That is the unforgivable sin, and it is the same thing that Paul speaks of in Hebrews 10. If we reject the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, then there is no other Sacrifice by which we can be saved. Unbelief is the sin that cannot be forgiven. It is not the same as the sin unto death. The sin unto death is a discipline from the Lord that is administered to end a believer's bad witness to the Lord.

You have deviated from the bone of contention and are teaching the need for repentance on the believer's part before we can intercede for him which i have never disputed, i only said that it is in this natural consequences of sin that we were ever expected to intercede unlike in the case of sin unto spiritual death. No problem then, since I've done enough in previous posts to show you that John meant spiritual death (and you have failed to counter that from his context and entire letter) and i have differentiated that from sin with strictly natural consequences(including natural death) and have not disputed that unbelief or rejection of faith is the unforgivable sin, we'll just have to let time teach us whether the sin unto death John spoke of was apostasy(unbelief) or not. God bless you.

Good question. Simple. The only economy God has provided to deal with all human character/ nature problems is that of GRACE. It was grace that brought us into our damnation-free status and access to the nature of God at conversion. We recieved this status by grace alone and will be perfected by grace. The thing is while we received grace without any input of ours at conversion, to enjoy the other privileges of grace all the way to the ultimate, we would need to learn how to walk in, have constantly (Heb 12:28)and grow in grace(2Pet 3:18). Grace is maintained and increased by prayer(Heb 4:16), fasting, revelation knowledge(2Pet 1:2-3) and acts of pure/true love(Gal6:9, Heb 6:9-12). All these are like seeds of grace that with CONSISTENCY produce fruit (multiplier effect) of grace. Without these, a believer will be stuck on the first level of grace he received, and this will eventually be frustrated by the flesh making him live in continuous struggles in his spiritual life ranging from habitual sins to demonic/witchcraft oppression, to lovelessness for God and love for the world e.t.c. While these may not lead him to loss of heaven (only the sin of apostasy can), they may lead to spiritual failure and worse still may lead to the sin of apostasy. So, its up to him to sow as many seeds of grace as will reap sufficient increase to overcome the opposition to his spiritual liberty. A popular mistake people make is to consider these seeds of grace to be human works that cannot get us anything from God but they are not because we do not present them as a bailout but as an investment which when reached their full measure will draw out more grace from the grace-bank of God. (Gal 6:7-9)
N.B. These seeds of grace themselves will not grant you victory over the flesh but if perseveringly kept at, of course not with machine perfection, they will eventually release greater yield of GRACE which then gives effortless, struggle-free victory over the flesh. There is how you come into holiness from one level to the next. Bless you.

Ihedinobi3:
Hello.

I stand by what I said. This is what I read in the Bible:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-17 (KJV)

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1 John 5:16-17 (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
James 5:14-15 (KJV)

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1 Corinthians 11:30-32 (KJV)

We have eternal life if we believe in Jesus Christ. We don't have eternal life if we don't believe in Jesus Christ. That is, Salvation has nothing directly to do with behavior, as you can see from John 3:16-17 above. Sin does weaken faith, but it is possible to maintain a bad witness, that is, to be sinning recklessly while holding on to Faith in Jesus Christ. It is not an easy thing to do because faith opposes sin and sin opposes faith, but believers do manage to do it anyhow. So, the Bible does not teach anything like "sinning until loss of eternal life."

The Bible does teach though that when we are sinning without confession and acting spiritually recklessly, we risk being disciplined right up to the point of death, like the Corinthians were when they abused the Lord's Supper. We also see that, in general, this discipline is drawn out. That is, as we see with the Corinthians, the sinning believer is put through some protracted suffering generally having to do with their health ("many are weak and sickly among you" ) until they die, unless they confess their sin (James 4:15).

John says that he does not command intercession for believers who are sinning in a manner that attracts the discipline of the sin unto death. Paul tells us that we are not even supposed to acknowledge such people as fellow believers or to associate with them (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). They put themselves right in the middle of God's "purging" of the assembly. We are told that we may pray for them when they turn around from their sin and seek to be brought back into the assembly. This is what James was referring to above and what Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11. That is, it may not be wise to interfere in divine discipline, especially of such a grievous sort, unless and until the sinning believer turns around from their terrible witness.

That is what I read from the Bible. I see nothing speaking of sinning until loss of eternal life anywhere in the Bible. One only loses eternal life by choosing to stop believing, not by sinning. Love for a pet sin can seduce one into choosing to stop believing, but it is not a guaranteed outcome. While we must resist sin to preserve our faith, it takes a conscious choice to stop believing in order to lose our Salvation. Merely sinning, no matter how grievously, does not result in a loss of eternal life.

Edited.

I wouldn't want this to become an argument though but i already acknowledged that there is such a judgement of sickness unto natural death for sin and we can intercede on behalf of those who do such, if God permits (Jam 5:14-15), as well as all the scriptures you quoted. But do not mistake this to be what John talks about just because he did not mention "spiritual" death or because he called it 'sin unto death'. Whenever we see the word death in scripture, we have to look at the context to know what kind is referred to. I tried showing you he never attached "spiritual" when refering to absence of eternal life but throughout his letter death always meant spiritual death (1Jn 3:14) and the reason he asked not to pray for that is because as the Lord said in Mt 12:32, such a sin will never be forgiven. It is reiterated in Heb 6:4 and Heb 10:26-27 as the willful 'sin' which leaves no more atonement, so John says there is no use praying for such. However, you would hardly, maybe never in your entire life, find a believer that sins this way, which still does not remove that possibility. I never suggested that the sin unto death is frequent or habitual sinning in the first place. You may call it choosing not to believe or whatever, it is even sometimes called apostasy but that is still called a sin in scripture, and is in fact the sin unto death that John speaks of so i don't see that as a point for ...all unrighteousness is sin..(1Jn 5:17) and whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23)