₦airaland Forum

ChristisGod:
Amen

Please feel free to ask questions.

MuttleyLaff:
Liked and concur

Liked and concur

Everything created by God can be perverted, misused and/or abused by Man and the Devil

CYM or holla when you're good.

ChristisGod:
*QUESTION*
What is the soul? We know a man is made up of the spirit, soul and body. The spirit is the inner man and the body is the flesh. Which part is the soul? I have heard many men of God say the soul is the mind, but read what Jesus says in

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with *all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind*.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

You can see, Jesus distinguished the soul from the mind. What then is your understanding of the soul?

Hope you don't mind a simple believer sharing apart from men of God?

Very important question there if you want to develop spiritually.
First, understand that the soul is distinct from the spirit. The spirit or spiritual body is the body for the spiritual realm just like the body is for the natural realm and in anatomy, both spirit and body are parallel in almost every respect. The logos light(word) of God (through the Spirit of truth) reveals the distinct centres of the soul and spirit as you become one with it. (Heb4:12).
The soul, however, is the real identity of a man, what defines him, iow, and his essence. It is the corporeal house of the
1.) Mind which is its brain(reasoning, imaginations),
2.) The heart(will, emotions, perception, conscience, cravings...),
3.) The appetite(belly)
4.) periphery and automations of the inner man
These soul faculties are interconnected with spirit and body centres for transmission of info. The spirit is the spiritual body/senses of the soul that picks spiritual senation like the physical body does physical sensation.
All stimuli from the spiritual world transmit to your spirit senses which then relay to your mind primarily and sometimes directly to the heart. Physical stimuli transmit through your physical senses which then relay to your brain and finally to your mind. All these transmissions are to lead to decision making by reasoning in the mind according to the condition of the heart which then forms the final mould that the whole soul takes.
In other words, the final goal of all engagements of your mind is to form your whole soul into a certain mould(like with pottery) according to the state of your heart which could be the image of God or any other image.

The reason God puts the sequence of heart, soul, mind...in Deut6:8 is not because heart and mind are exclusive from the whole soul but because that is the progression for the transformation of the whole soul body. The heart first being changed and then, being the door to the belly and inward parts(collectively called soul) conveys the divine seed there for transformation, and lastly the brain of the soul which is the mind being transformed in Christlikeness.

The spirit returns to God after death(Ecc12:7) and the physical body to the dust(if you don't conquer death on earth) but the soul, the real man is what gets judged and sentenced to heavenly dwellings or hellish dwellings(Lk12:20, Heb9:27)

There is too much to elaborate on the subject here but just keep going over this again and again and you would keep seeing clearer.

MuttleyLaff:
I have waited doing CYM, but nothing in from you. I can wrap it up in 30 mins ...

Okey dokey

MuttleyLaff:
Sacrifice 30 minutes. Squeeze out 30mins from your busy schedule to be online for a chatroom session. Notice that I have dropped it down from up to one hour. Lets do it now sef, now that you are currently online and even reading as I am seeing you do below.
I've send you a chat room request, so check your email now, for the chatroom invite

Ok but I wonder what we can achieve because I'll have to keep it 30 mins. CYM.

Eviana:
I was so tickled by the above bolded.
This was so funny because Nigerians are so interesting.....which I already know.
Gotta love my other half of my DNA...no matter how frustrated I get sometimes.
I am so very tickled really.
On that other thread, you told me to "keep quiet" on doctrine that I didn't understand remember?.....
Soooo, I followed your instructions by "running away for good"...lol.

Me control MuttleyLaff enough to make him run away or back down from any religious discussion on this forum? I don't think I've ever seen him do that ever..
Again very hilarious....I am tickled again..lol.
Oh I'm sure your questions will be answered...

However, yes, I am gonna do a "repeat" of what I did on the other thread over here on this thread (although I probably could explain this one a little bit better) and exercise my feminine grace--which I thank God for--and do the following while running:

@ the bolded, I'm not so sure Mutt will answer those questions and there's a first time for everything, too.

About keeping silent, don't be deterred to freely ask questions on what you don't know and question what you can't accept when presented to you and also express your opinions in a subjective and researchful way rather than argumentatively or stating authoritatively what you can't prove so as not to mislead souls. I'm sure you already know that though.

God bless you.

MuttleyLaff:
Eviana, Nigerians are an interesting and blessed lot in a good and positive way, lol. Trust me, I know because Naija is in my DNA, my blood, lol. I cant believe that Finallydead would tell you to "keep quiet" on doctrine that he presumes you didn't understand. Sounds like he is trying to embrace and employ that misunderstood Apostle Paul's verse about the alleged silence of women, lol smh. Now he is getting the hump and green-eyed over me mentioning your kind-heartedness and expressing appreciation of it. Whats the matter with people huh?

Well, as you've already seen yourself, in that heap Finallydead put up there, he's got in it, more holes than in a swiss cheese, its just plain smh unbelievable. What has begotten Son got to do with son(s) of God. Doesnt Finallydead know what begotten, in the original Greek text, means ni? Has Finallydead not heard or learned about monogenes ni? I invited Finallydead twice for a private chat, but he is dodging and avoiding them. Of course, Finallydead wants to continue living his delusion, lol.

90% of Finallydead's submission was him merely strawmanning me. Quite a lot what Finallydead typed were excruciatingly obscure, unclear and/or unintelligible to follow and plain just misleading. He even, is so blinded by fables, even the Greek mythology didn't raise a red flag up, as warning for Finallydead ....... scared of having his bubble burst, so he is hiding behind the, air it, in the market place for all to hear ploy. First it was, lets agree to disagree, but now when I declined that and gave him a chance to have a private chat, to do a mano o mano that's presented itself, it is then, this next one, hes pulled out from in his bag of running away tricks, lol, smh.

Contd. from above


THE FEASIBILITY OF THEIR EXISTENCE
One of the areas where people have a hard time with this account of the Nephilim is in the seeming impracticability of Spiritual beings and humans cross breeding. While it is indeed a wondrous feat to the imagination and obviously not all spiritual beings/angels are capable of this, bible students have no reason to see this as impossible or to think no spiritual beings can crossbreed with humans.
Considering that God, procreated His seed through Mary and that the Antichrist will replicate this and come in flesh and blood, like an ordinary human, also seeking to alter the human genes into his through the mark, then there are certainly spiritual beings capable of crossbreeding with mankind. We can see the Nephilim as the first instance of this crossbreeding.

CONFIRMATION OF THE NEPHILIM CROSSBREED
If at all, there were still any unclear grounds for belief in the crossbreed, which really is clear, we have a straw that breaks the camel's back from the NT letters. Make that two straws, actually.
Peter in his letter, 2Pet2, referring to offending teachers who "introduce sects of destruction and deny the Lord...."(v1) and ...especially abuse the flesh...(v10), reminds of God's habitual pattern of SIMULTANEOUS judgement of offenders and salvation of the innocent(v9), referencing two previous events.
First is the event of interest, The crossbreeding of angels and humans, which corrupted the flesh leading to the destruction of all flesh BUT salvation of Noah(v4-5).
Second is the destruction of S&G for the same corruption of flesh AND saving of Lot(v6-8 )

NB.: Take note Muttley, that attempting to say Peter cited the crossbreeding event as a fable will not only be an abuse on yours and everyone else's intelligence but will also mean that Peter called the Noah-flood story and S&G story fables as well.

You also seem to want to make much of the verb "Tartaroo" used by Peter in v4, which only literally means to put in the lowest abyss of Hades. It is only as mythical as Hades itself, then. This is what was done to these angels

To further confirm our Nephilim story, referring to certain defaulting brothers who defile the flesh(v8) amongst other things, Jude, warns of God's character of punishing His very own when they apostatise and break His covenant, citing three stories:
First, He destroyed His own people He had brought out of Egypt when they disbelieved.(v5)
Second, He sentenced His own angels when they left their dwelling to chains in the darkness of Hell.(v6)
Third, He destroyed S&G for the sin of defiling the flesh.(v7)

It is also worthy of note that the reputable early church fathers believed in the fall of angelic beings in the time of Noah and the birth of hybrids(Nephilim).

SONSHIP TITLE ON MEN
Of all the great men we know, we can hardly find one called a son of God anywhere in scripture like the Lord Jesus. Even Adam, preordained a son of God before the fall, only died a man because of sin(Ps82:6-7) and we do not have any scriptural grounds to confer the title on Seth or his lineage. And even if you would want to put Enoch in that class, it would be only after he took on angelic form. If a man would ever be called son of God, it would be only after this transmutation to angelic state, not before. And in that mutated state, if they ever procreate, it would still be a crossbreed, not a human.
So, no man, during the earthly life in which they procreated normally was called a son of God. This crossbreeding in Gen6, then, could not be between two ordinary lines of humans.
We see however, throughout OT usage of sons of God/morning stars for angels(Job1&2, 38:7, Is 14:12)

CORPORALITY OF ANGELS AND DEMONS
It seems the reason people mix up demons and fallen angels is because they don't understand the logic of spiritual corporality. Understand that the physical realm is only a derivative of the spiritual realm and is a parallel to it, corresponding in every detail to a spiritual reality(Heb11:3). Both are simply parallel universes or different dimensions. Like we would cross from earth to another planet in Star Wars, yet those beings are just as real and corporeal(in the movie) as humans. Therefore, just as there are physical bodies to each animal, so there are spiritual bodies to each spirit being(1Cor15:40,44, Eze28:13, Job41:1,2,7,14,15...24).
All angels, like animals and humans (only, of the spiritual realm), have their unique corporality and well designed bodies with wings(being all originally made for heaven), needing no supporting body/host for their existence. We must get rid of the wrong mindset that Spirit beings are all like transparent incorporeal ghosts needing a physical body. No, they are corporeal, but with bodies suited primarily to the spirit realm. Some are also able to transform their bodies and transmogrify(2Cor11:14), even into physical bodies to engage on earthly assignments but none can dwell inside the body of another being, physical or spiritual.
Demons, however, are like the parasites/vermin of the spiritual realm who cannot sustain their existence without a host(naked spirits, so to say).
It is a wearying torturous thirst to them to exist without a host, hence they are always seeking one(Lk11:24). Being the least of the spiritual realm, they are left to find their host in physical creatures, especially humans but can manage animals in dire conditions(Lk8:32).
As much as beasts are not parasites/microbes, so fallen angels are not demons.

MuttleyLaff:
Eviana, Nigerians are an interesting and blessed lot in a good and positive way, lol. Trust me, I know because Naija is in my DNA, my blood, lol. I cant believe that Finallydead would tell you to "keep quiet" on doctrine that he presumes you didn't understand. Sounds like he is trying to embrace and employ that misunderstood Apostle Paul's verse about the alleged silence of women, lol smh. Now he is getting the hump and green-eyed over me mentioning your kind-heartedness and expressing appreciation of ....

I invited him to a private chatroom, but he's so scared of having his bubble burst, so he is hiding behind the, air it, in the market place for all to hear ploy. First it was, lets agree to disagree, but now when I declined that and gave him a chance to have a private chat, to do a mano o mano that's presented itself, it is then, this next one, hes pulled out from in his bag of running away tricks, lol, smh.

Wow. I'm sorry I've not been available to respond, Mutt. Been so occupied. But hey, you know I really can't be scared of having my bubble burst when I'm suggesting that I learn in front of everyone, Mutt.

Let me help you out with what you're not getting Mutt, take a look at an exposition I once did on the Nephilim. There's a lot more to it but I can't share everything with you.


EXPOSITON ON SINS OF the SONS OF GOD/NEPHILIM ORIGIN

BACKGROUND OF THE EVENT
In Gen5, we're given the ancestry of the main actor in the flood story, Noah, right from Adam. It is important to note in this account that God called Adam and all his race, male and female inclusive, upto Noah "MAN"(Gen5:1-2).
Linking up through the chapter to Gen6:1, we're told that when MEN began to become numerous(multiplying in 10,000s in literal Hebrew), certain sons of God saw the females born to the MAN race as beautiful.(v2)
1.) This makes it easy to understand that the men referred to in the following account of Gen6(remember there's no chapter and verse, chapter 5&6 are continuous) is the whole Adamic race not a specific line(of Cain). It would be absurd also, GIVEN THE CONTEXT, to think that the sons of God referred in Gen6:2 to an Adamic line(of Seth) seeing that the name referenced here was MAN(Adamic race according to Gen5) PLUS there was NEVER a reference previously(for Adam or Seth) both in chapter 5 and right back through chapter 1 of the title "son of God". Such thought would create a sharp, irregular inflexion in the progressive account.
2.) The sons of God engagement with women also occurred when MEN started becoming numerous i.e. after males had ALREADY been going in to females and proliferating the race of MAN. If the sons of God referred to a line of MEN, it should be no big deal worthy of mention that they suddenly began going into females since that had been the case already.
3.) To think that men were sons of God through Seth's "pure" bloodline and that their blood could pass down the genes of Divine sonship would also mean that all men on earth today are sons of God altogether since Noah was a pure descendant of Seth and is our common ancestor.
It is imperative then that we investigate the "sons of God" here with a different line of thought.

TIMESPAN OF THE EVENT
Going further into Gen6, v4 specifically, we're told that a certain breed called "NEPHILIM" showed up in those days and also afterwards.
Here is a point many have also misconstrued. Many take this to say that the nephilim were in the earth in the days of the flood and also after the flood. Yet, in the account, "those days" couldn't have referred to the flood because the flood event was yet to be mentioned up to this point and even further after this point.
What days then we're referred to. It is right there in the text "...when the sons of God went into the daughters of MEN"(Gen6:4) which by comparing with Gen6:1 was the days that "...MEN began to be numerous". So we see that it was in those days and also after the days when MEN began to become so many that the Nephilim showed up. There were no Nephilim AFTER the flood but only after MEN began to become many i.e. the timespan of the Nephilim was from the time men started multiplying and it continued on as a trend afterwards up until the flood.

MYTHS OF RESURGENCE
This immediately brings up another story which seems to counter this position in Num13:32. The only other time we see the use of the word "Nephilim" is in this account. This initially, seems to corroborate the fable that Nephilim existed after the flood. However, if we carefully follow the account, we see the fallacy. In Num13, the spies in their initial report of Canaan, Num13:26-29, gave a factual report of the land and never mentioned a hoot about Nephilim. However, only after Caleb suggested that they go and possess the land, v30, did the spies not only counter the idea for obvious fear, v31, but as clearly written, they also "...came up with a SLANDER...that the land swallows people...," v32,(take note slander is exactly what the literal Hebrew says) ...and also had sons of Anak who were not only giants, in a human to grasshopper ratio, but Nephilim indeed...v33.
In other words, these were all OUTRAGEOUS lies(slanders) concocted to put fear into the people so they would all want to cowardly remain in the wilderness and never entertain the idea of a confrontation with the Canaanites.
So if we can take their word concerning the sons of Anak being Nephilim, we might as well believe that the land swallowed it's inhabitants and that the sons of Anak(who btw were generally much taller, burly and more powerful than they) were giants in a human to grasshopper ratio. We of course cannot. Even when the report was mentioned again in Num14:36-37, it was again specifically called a SLANDER.
So there were no Nephilim after the flood because part of the purpose of the flood was to clear that bloodline by drowning them long enough to their death since they couldn't die in ordinary ways and also conduct their bodies to Antarctica(which only became through the flood and brought up the need for cold, Gen8:22, which never was before the flood) since they couldn't be decomposed like ordinary human bodies.

CHARACTERISTICS OF THE NEPHILIM.
Continuing with the account in Gen6, we can find certain clearly spelt out characteristics of the Nephilim.
First, let's begin by dispelling the idea that they were huge gigantic creatures. While it is not impossible that there were physically distinguishable traits in these Nephilim e.g. their physical size, we have no concrete reason to believe this as the word 'giants' was actually translated from the word Nephilim in the Hebrew, which just revolves around the meaning "fallen". It therefore shouldn't be understood to mean giants as we know today and so we should understand the text rather as
"...There were Nephilim/Fallen ones in the earth in those days..."(Gen6:4).
Now to their obvious characteristics.
1.) It is obvious that these beings were supernaturally powerful. When it says in Gen6:4 "mighty men of old", the literal Hebrew says "Gibbor(powerful) Olam(eternally)" i.e. eternally(hence supernaturally) powerful. What these eternal powers were, however, aren't specified. But though human in appearance, they possessed such powers, as the average superhero(they are in fact the inspiration of many hero cartoons, globally).
2.) By these supernatural powers, these beings stood out among mortals, the literal Hebrew calls them "mortals of name/character/reputation" or renown as in KJV. That is they were popular for their mighty feats.
3.) They had a special capacity to lead mankind into depravity/sin and violence and that, at an alarming rate to such a level as to provoke the wrath of God on the earth long before Adam's term expired. So, rather than the picture of super heroes portrayed of them today in traditional folktales and cartoons, scripture portrays these beings as villains instead.

Contd. below...

MuttleyLaff:
Finallydead, am I pleased and glad for all this. I immediately can see you completely and totally confused, no offence intended. You are virtually all over the place, mixing things up and even trying to equate the unconnecting with the unconnected, lol

I don't buy your agree to disagree cop out ploy. I have offerred you a good gesture. Let me know when you have at least up to a 1 hour free online time, then I will send you a chat room invite.

Are you game for this, hmm? Can't be any thing fairer than this arrangement now, don't you agree?

I don't see anything disconnected in my presentation but it all fits perfectly. With all due respect, Mutt, the fairest thing I see here is to finish what was started in the open in the open. If you have good answers for me, it will be good for everyone else here. Don't you think?
All eyes here are already waiting to see what you have to say to the questions. It will be fair on them to show it here. But if you won't answer, let's agree to disagree. Thanks for your understanding.

In any case, even after you're done answering here for everyone, to honour your invite, I'll try to let you know when I'm able.
Thank you.

MODIFIED***

MuttleyLaff:
...

O Muttley, for time sake, I'm gonna do this for you quickly but except you can change my mind, I'll end this with agree to disagree, okay? You say I should pull out my ammo, lol. But before I do, Muttley, I'm gonna do again what you know me well for.
You know very well that I like to bolt into threads and bolt out ASAP, not going round and round in circles with scriptures. So before it gets to that, I like to employ the killer question approach before using my ammo.

I'll start a small bonfire, bolt out, and hopefully, if they wish, I'll let petra1 and Nephilim(wonder if he's met some nephs) do the honours of consuming your whole forest of this false doctrine with an inferno. Petra1 is so close to the kingdom but Lordreed keeps obstructing him at the gate, lol. If they both carefully go through all my posts on here, they might end up walking in gracefully, hand in hand, lol, and Lordreed would stop recycling questions already answered.

Now, with most direct answers, Muttley, investigate what I brought up before and you will see clearly.
1.) Tell me bluntly, Muttley. Is it true that the theme of 2Pet2 is that God usually simultaneously annihilates those who apostatise in all kinds of sin, ESPECIALLY(v10) in polluting their flesh while at the same time saving His chosen who keep themselves as in the two instances before given?

The theme of 2Pet2 was how God is able to preserve the chosen no matter the degree of depravity and bring the agents of depravity(especially corruption of flesh, v10)to their judgement. 2Pet2:9-10.
a) Instance no 1: He bound the sons of God(notice he called them angels) in chains(which is never done to humans), utterly destroyed through flood the whole world who, thanks to their intercourse with these special angels, polluted their human genes, raising giants at the same time saving Noah and family.(v4-5)

b) Instance no 2: He delivered Lot at the same time utterly destroying the corrupted flesh(through HS) of Sodom and Gomorrah.(v6-7)

Therefore he will deliver the chosen while bringing to judgement these false teachers who are overcome by the same evil desires, defiling their flesh in lust for opposite sex and HS(v13, take note of the two words: effeminacy and revelling, v14 likewise: eyes full of adultery...)

2.) Again, is it true that the theme of Jude, similar to 2Pet2, is to warn of the judgement of brethren who use the grace of God for licentiousness(unbridled lust) as in the two instances?
a) Instance no 1: He killed the same people he brought out of Egypt in the wilderness when they fornicated on two occasions.(v5)
b) Instance no 2: He judged (with chains again, these can't be humans) his very own angels who left their heavenly habitation for their fornication(V6)
c) Instance no 3: He judged S&G for the same fornication.(v7)
Therefore he will judge these brothers, though they were once His, for defiling the flesh as in a) and b) (v8)

Note that trying to claim that Peter and Jude were calling this Gen6 event a heresy of false teachers will be one of the most humorous and ineffective mind games played on any intelligent person who reads both texts. Also note that the Greek verb "Tartaroo" used by Peter literally means to put one into a lowest dungeon of hell, which was done to these angels.

3.) If 1&2 are true, then by the mouth of 2&3 witnesses(Moses, Peter and Jude), isn't the story of Gen6 established as an event including the sons of God who were angels as in 1a) and 2b)?

If you like to believe the sons of God in OT were humans, then

4) How is it that these humans presented themselves TOGETHER before God in HEAVEN, even along with Satan before the Lord Jesus came as in Job1&2?

5)How is it possible that these humans, called morning stars(Lucifers), Satan's rank of angels, in Job38:7 were actively singing into the fabric of earth when God laid the cornerstone/foundation of the earth, taking the measurements(v4-6) and when God bounded the seas together(v8) and formed the clouds, ALL which took place long before Adam was made?

6)How is it also possible that it was humans in Gen6 that produced giants who were super powered(might men) and men of name(the legends and myths we have today of supermen)?

7.) Why then did the Jews crucify Jesus accusing Him of calling Himself Son of God, if this was something attributed to previous humans and not God Himself in the flesh?

8.) Why then is the Lord called the only begotten Son of God and the first to lead we humans into sonship through a new birth, if there were already humans who were sons of God?
Note that it is our destiny through Christ to become begotten sons of God after our Lord, to replace the fallen sons of God(including Lucifer) who were not begotten but only manufactured for the position and hence fell.

9) Why then did God have to destroy the whole world in Noah with a flood, only time he has though humans have been sinning before, if not that these superhumans having corrupted genes produced strange flesh and quickly determined to wipe out the pure human genes so there would be no virgin for Messiah and they could rule earth with Satan forever, which flesh also could not be decomposed in the earth, hence to freeze them in the Antarctic(where all the flood water went), being that there was never ice before the flood but only after(Gen8:22)
Take note that contamination of human genes has been Satan's age old plot to rule the world, beginning from his attempt to put his seed in Eve, which because of his fallen form didn't go as planned to produce aberrations, right up to the tribulation with the mark of the beast which transforms the human genes.

10)Can you produce one single scripture that uses the words angels and demons interchangeably?
Take note that Satan is lord of all evil angels and also lord of demons as the god of this world altogether forming a kingdom and working together. So don't produce separate uses of his lordship over them but only interchanging of "demon" and "angel" in the same text.

11)Can you produce a single text in scripture where Satan or any evil angel shares a human body with the host like demons do?
Note that there are spiritual bodies as well as physical(1Cor15:40). All spirits must have a body to rest in whether spiritual or physical.
Demons are disbodied(physical from the flood), hence naked spirits who yearn for a body, like any other disbodied spirit e.g. we in 2Cor5:1-3 and never can rest until they have one(Lk11:24, Mk5:12). However evil angels have bodies which are spiritual, not physical(1Cor15:40) hence never need to share with a human.
If God were to open one's eyes to see a demon or an angel, it will be very clear that demons are ghostly, nauseating, grotesque, like virmin(usually stunted) of the spirit world. While evil angels with their wings and firm bodies are more dignified, though very evil and grim, some humanoid, others not really, generally larger.

Hope this doesn't come as a rude bump to your hyper-emotional, lovey-dovey moment with dear Eviana. She's so soft with her presentations but they can still harm an innocent soul whenever built on falsehood, howbeit I trust she always has better intentions. And please don't let her influence you to run away from ANY single one of these questions, like she gracefully and with great dignity ran from my killer question last time, lol. So many eyes on you, my good friend. Answering each and everyone of them will make you see the light. Good luck with them.
I'll be out now and please pardon me again if I'm AWOL or not too quick to respond for engagements.

P.S: Just saw your text Mutt, I was posting this that's why you saw me, I have so many mails unresponded to Mutt, I'd leave you with this here so it can benefit all. If you want to bless others, do it here my friend.

Eviana:
Well maybe that was a mistake at the above bolded part.
Then I got it again when Muttley replied you cause he quoted all of what you wrote there.
That's why I was a little confused.

My apologies about that....

Oh, sorry. My bad. The apology should come from me, I guess. I think I know how my smart keyboard did that. Fixed.

MuttleyLaff:
CYM Finallydead please. Thanks.

Okey dokey.

Eviana:
Finallydead,
I saw a mention for me here...thought it was a typo, but I see it probably wasn't.
I appreciate being invited...
I am quite familiar with this topic..from about almost 2 years ago.
I am in the teeny, tiny minority who agrees with Muttleylaff, albeit he explains in such a creative way.
I will exercise discretion and gracefully allow you guys to discuss.

Thanks again

I invited you?? Huh?? . How?
Or this is for Muttley, right?

MuttleyLaff:
Finallydead, I am already retired for the night and safely tucked in under my warm cosy duvet, besides not up to responding any further now until God willing after waking up, I'll say this little much, go back and revisit 2 Peter Chapter 2 and re-read it, but slowly, just as I earlier advice, be alert, as I forgot to add that too. Scroll up please also, to read my responses to donnie & LordReed

About your "Here's the gist, we were created to take his place he and some of his kinfolk lost. But we must pass the test he failed first." comment, you are bang on the money right about that, only that you left out the main other important reason why we were created, lol. Don't worry, by God's grace, I will later on in day, after waking up, dig out a previous post of mine that talked about this particular main important reason you left out mentioning, lol.

Most of what you posted are sheer proof-textings going on. The mere seeing and reading Tartaros, in that 2 Peter 2, you should have spotted the red flag and anomaly, lol. Like be thinking thats off and out of place to be in there. What's going on etcetera, lol.

Look at you, naively trying to align Job 1:6, Job 2:1 and Job 38:7, plus even Genesis 6:2 and 6:4 to be angelic beings. Dont worry, wait for when we reconvene, lol. Nah for house, chair dey take wait for yansh, come return siddon, lol. Clean your piece and make sure you stock up on ammo. Nighty night. Good sleepy rest to both of us and all

Don't worry your good self, Mutt in case I'm not on here for a while. It's obvious were headed for a disagreement. Let's take it that way and shake hands. Look carefully at Lordreed's question and you'll see it'll keep you going in circles with your position. But if he carefully reads through all my posts on here, it should come clear to him. Whichever way I still maintain we don't need to dwell on our disagreements but just let time do it's work and focus rather on our common grounds and build up our faith from those.
Have a blessed sleep and dream of God in it. Amen.

Polymath369:
Also,how do I escape this rat race? It seems to me like we're all following an already made template of life and I don't like that kind if life. I don't want to trade my youthful age working for money. How do I escape?
Life really isn't fair I swear.

My friend, you weren't created for a rat race. You were created to experience what being like God is. The only way into this is to seek righteousness and perfection in all that you do by His divine enablement not your futile ability. You can have a relationship with the Divine Being and discover your true worth in this. You will soon find that all your current earthly achievements pale in comparison to what you could have if you become like the Heavenly Father. But it all depends on how badly you want it. Life truly isn't fair but it is only what you choose.
N.B.: Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes?

MuttleyLaff:
Time no dey for niceties. Drop the Sirs, for another time, another day. We all sires, without need to Sir ourselves

Okay, okay!!, what's with the haste today? I'll cut the sir if it bothers you so much then.

I am glad you do see from scripture that fallen angels and demons are are interchangeably used, but what other proof are you still expecting that you think you are incapable of finding without me leading you on, hmm?

No, no, no!!! There's no proof at all in your texts of interchanging demons and angels. That's the point. You tried to say that, not the scripture. You kind of tried to fill in the gaps you thought were. I showed you there weren't any if you saw it my way. Satan is the god of this world. He is both Lord of fallen angels and of demons, having gotten himself Adamic authority. Whichever of them will work on this earth will need his permission. You'll never find a single scripture that uses both interchangeably.

Of course, demons, are so fond of sharing human bodies. So paraphrasing LordReed, I ask you Finallydead, why are these "rebels" aka demons, so fond of sharing human bodies and why the need to operate "lawfully and legally". Notice a legion of them sought permission from Yahshua aka Jesus, not to just beordinarily evicted but they begged to be evicted into a herd of pigs (i.e. Matthew 8:31, Mark 5:12 and/or Luke 8:32)

If you carefully read my presentations from the onset and buy my idea, you'll find your answer. Demons need bodies for rest(Lk11:24). They are only at home in one because of their previous existence. Angels don't. But both need human permission to lawfully and legally achieve their goals on earth. Do you see the prince of Persia needing a body to rule over Persia? Or Satan? They're bigger than that. Their influence is territorial. The king of Egypt and Leviathan will be satisfied to dwell in the heart of the seas with others while many other angels do in the heavens.

Fallen angels, I rather correctly use, extra-terrestrial beings, can share a human body and so God's angels too, meaning unfallen extra-terrestrial beings, also can BUT its important to note that they never do, and this for a very good and important reason.

It's getting messy now, Mutt. I know something in you ticked off when you typed this. Will you go beyond scripture to hold your position if it's not found there? The only truth here is in your statement ...angels(light or darkness) "never do". Yes, only demons do. Muttley, you surely don't mean to tell me that you believe Satan or some fallen angel has shared a body with a human at anytime. Please? You may also show a scriptural example.

You've stepped on a banana skin right there, ...

Notice you're the only one bringing up BoE. I'm sticking only to scriptures. Tell me how you read 2Pet2:4-5 and said it doesn't refer to Gen6
4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartaros, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

Now tell me Muttley, why did God lock up these angels in Tartaros(an underneath abyss of hell and no myth) here(in Jude it's everlasting chains awaiting judgement of all that's in hell) and leave Satan and his angels till this day, if not that these can copulate with women and fast forward the destruction of the earth through their genes.
O Common Mutt!!, You're trying to say now that Peter, Jude were saying the angel procreation story was heresy. Then Peter also meant the sparing of Noah in the flood and the sparing of Lot in the burning of Sodom was heresy. And Jude brought up how the Lord delivered the sons of Israel from Egypt and then let some die in the wilderness as well as the Sodom story before mentioning what he did with these angels. You'll have to say these are heresies too. You see how that sounds. Naah!!
Read again. The theme of 2Pet2 was how God was able to preserve the chosen no matter the degree of depravity and bring the agents of depravity(especially corruption of flesh, v10) to their judgement. 2Pet2:9-10.
Instance no 1: He delivered Noah at the same time binding the angels who initiated corruption of flesh and flooding away corrupted human flesh.
Instance no 2: He delivered Lot at the same time destroying the corrupted flesh(through HS) of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Therefore he will deliver the chosen while bringing to judgement in these false teachers who are overcome by the same evil desires to corrupt flesh in lust for opposite sex and HS. ( v13, take note of the two words: effeminacy and revelling, v14 likewise: eyes of adultery...). Also note Jude 7-8.

Please, please, please, dont even go there, abegggy, please jor because the sons of God, spoken of in Job 1:6, Job 2:1 and Job 38:7, plus even Genesis 6:2 and 6:4 are all bonafide and confirmed human beings. It is bad theology that ascribed them to be extra-terrestrial beings aka angels. Sorry to burst this bubble.

O don't worry, my bubble seems so very safe from over here Mutt, even smoothly sailing up and up and up, lol, if you really believe the sons of God(a.k.a Morning stars) who sang and shouted when God was creating the seas and the foundations of the earth and it's cornerstone before even Adam was, were humans. Do you notice also that Satan is called the Morning star(Lucifer, Is 14:12).
Here's the gist, we were created to take his place he and some of his kinfolk lost. But we must pass the test he failed first.

I am sure it does. Dont trust everything you see that all fits perfectly together to you, because even salt looks like sugar.

Sure. If you send a kid to the market, he might mix them up. But I'm sure you don't mix them up. Some eye for detail thing, huh?
I'd rather trust what fits than what doesn't.

My work is not to convince anyone. My work is to open the door, you'll have to walk yourself, without anyone pushing or shoving you in. The most I'll do is, lay down a stick against any stick not straight placed on the floor, lol and let the sticks speakfor themselves, lol.

Well Muttley, it's now obvious you weren't trying to convince me, lol. No scripture, no logic, nothing yet. Problem is there isn't even any door so far nor some ray of light in the tunnel. We seem to be walking all over the place looking for your door, only getting closer to calling salt sugar, lol.
So here's my suggestion, let's just shake hands here and agree to disagree. We should focus on the things that bind us together you know and grow from those. Time will reveal the truth to us.
In case I can't reply further my friend, have a blessed day.

MuttleyLaff:
"Then some people brought Jesus a man possessed by a demon. The demon made the man blind and unable to talk. Jesus cured him so that he could talk and see."
- Matthew 12:22

"But the Pharisees said,
"It is by the prince of demons that He drives out demons.""
- Matthew 9:34

"Then He will also say to those on His left,
'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
- Matthew 25:41

Finallydead, you remind me of Jesus' words, in John 3:10, to Nicodemus, where He said to him, something to the effect that: "... You are a great teacher in Israel, and do you not know these things?"

Tbh, I dont at all, like to come face to face with people like you, donnie etcetera that I highly respect and value, with bitter truth(s), because it hurts me more when I do than to hesistantly just in a pedestrian way watch and shrug things off

Oh don't worry, Sir, I'm not afraid or ashamed to learn whatever I don't know. It could help improve my Christian experience. But you will have to first convince me. And even if we fail to convince each other, we can if we are mature minds, maintain a mutual respect.

What I see from your choices of scripture is that you have brought them together to say fallen angels are interchangeably used for demons but there is still no proof of this in your presentation. You should see it this way, both demons and fallen angels are spirit beings of different species and Satan is god of the entire earth having usurped Adam's authority, so all take orders from him.

Demons, however, are so fond of sharing human bodies unlike angels of light and darkness. It is these spirits who lost their bodies in the flood who the Lord said always seek rest and never find it until they have a human body because they were designed with physical bodies from birth and feel incomplete and unrested without one. (Lk11:24). It is these who are continually being cast out of human bodies and never angels. To think that a fallen angel can share a human body is to think that God's angels also can.

But according to biblical narrative in Gen6 and corroborated in 2Pet2:4-5 and Jud:6, it was a special breed of spirit being angels(also in Job 38:7) that copulated with women(this was the sin and the leaving of their heavenly dwellings to dwell with men) and this makes sense of the birth of giants and superbeings(mortals of renown) being born and leading to immediate corruption of all flesh that caused God to destroy it all. It sounds crazy though but we know humans and humans can't produce giants. These breed of angels did and were said to have been chained in Tartaros unlike other angels without the ability to copulate like Satan and his host, still left to operate.
It all fits perfectly together to me.

MuttleyLaff:
My brother please leave personalities, age and anything like that for LAWMA ojaare. It is the truth that matters to both you and I, that I know very much. Iron sharpens iron.

The emboldened, at the least least, is what is unscriptual. You have deviated from the contrary position established in scripture, my dear sire. I am sorry to be the one to be making this bitter truth known to you. Sorry.

Well then, if you say so. Maybe we should agree to disagree because you didn't show how I contradicted the quoted scriptures which very well supported my position also including (2Pet2:4-5) which referred to this incident. I know that no angel ever possesses a human but like the Princes of Persia, Greece or Tyrus control territories.

What's most important is that people shouldn't allow themselves become the theatre of expression for anything that's of evil.

MuttleyLaff:
You have been hoodwinked by BoE and have joined gang slandering angels

Is anything I said opposed to the scriptural position and do you have any contrary position established in scripture, my old man, Sir?

Well, ladylite started well but slipped somewhere along the line.
First, understand that demons are different species from fallen angels like Satan and his host who are spirits having distict spiritual bodies.
Demons were originally physically bodied beings that shared the earth with humans when certain sons of God spiritual beings had relations with women and gave birth to nephilim, the real superhumans(source of all myths and many superhero stories) and giants of old who brought so much corruption to humans even up to convincing them towards corruption of their genes(Gen6:1-7) hence leading to God's decision to flood the earth sparing only Noah who kept his genes pure(Gen6:9).
These beings lost their bodies due to the flood specifically targeted to confine their bodies (which could not be decomposed in the dust of earth, not being as that of humans) in the icy Antarctic. This is why you hear of cold and heat coming up after the flood(Gen8:22).
The demon spirits losing their bodies and left in limbo, neither bound to heaven nor hell suited to human souls, have ever since wandered on earth(Lk11:24) longing for bodies to live in again as they once did, hoping in futility to again rule over and be worshipped by humans. Though these human bodies are nothing compared to the capabilities of their original bodies, it's the closest thing they get to their original existence.
By divine decree(Ps115:16), the earth realm is in the custody of human beings, the only beings that have both spirits to relate with the spiritual realm and bodies for the physical realm. We are the bridge between both realms and participators in both. That's why we all dream , discern our conscience and have a creative mind unlike other animals(baseline common expressions of the human spirit apart from others we can develop) and we can also get things done with our bodies according to our mind's decision.
So even God Himself as all other spirits need men's cooperation to express their spiritual realities on earth. This cooperation is not necessarily in terms of merely saying to a spirit "come on in". No. In the spirit realm, actions speak louder than words. Every spirit has a character and CONTINUING in its character is literally giving that spirit, AT SOME POINT, permission for expression on earth.
You see now why even believers today don't see the physical expression of God in their lives apart from their initial faith that lends a hope for eternity. They don't learn to be established in His character like the biblical patriarchs did.
So If one lives in immoral character for instance, demon spirits of immoral character are attracted to them. Phase by phase(and this may take years), more ground in the human is ceded to them, from mere mental suggestions, then to obsession in the mind, then to the control of hearts and ultimately to total control of the human spirit with which they can express themselves through the body even against the human will.
Note that no fallen angel seeks to share a human body as it is unfit for them. Only demons do. Fallen angels are more interested in influencing human mindsets and thought patterns (the index of worship in the realm of spirits) by influencing legislations, policies, false educational theories(e.g. misrepresenting the Creator to be opposed to science), creation of false religions etc. in societal units from family to nations(Dan10:13).

Good to hear Eviana. The most important thing is to let your newfound love grow into perfection. Dwell in His presence and eat from the tree of life. Only this will help you grow and keep you from stumbling. I suggest you stay away from not only this but all winds of doctrines you do not understand which only destroy and make love grow cold rather than build you up, all which fall from the tree of mental knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge puffs up but he that loves the Lord is known by Him(1Cor8:1-3). If we all follow the narrow road of continuous surrender in love, we will end up in His image, the only thing that matters.
Solite3, I've seen your mention. It's fine with me.

Bodydialect57:
Thanks for the mention MH. I trust you are fine and keeping safe. You have well presented the truth just like you did in the other thread. I will just add this.

When it comes to God reaching out to His creations to deliver, heal or even pass a message across, He does not discriminate between man or woman, whosoever is available and ready will be on errand for Him. When Barak was dragging feet and unwilling go face the enemy as a man, Deborah, a woman, prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, who was ready and available was used of God to deliver the people of Israel from their enemy. Judges 4:8-9.
Many a man today will resist the leadership position of women cos they don't really understand the full workings of God, the operations of His Spirit. Joel 2: 28 promised the outpouring of His spirit to all flesh, both the male and female without discrimination. Kathryn Kulma was greatly used of God in the healing ministry in which many, men inclusive, were beneficiaries. If such had resisted the hands of God stretched forth through a woman, they would have missed out of God's blessings. As God did in days gone by, He is doing same today through His Spirit, pouring out His gifts on both the male and female so the body of Christ can be edified, and not just for a supremacy battle.

Yes, sister. Let no demonic doctrine hinder you from answering God's calling. For even in these last days, thousands of Deborahs will rise and shine brightly for His glory. And God will use the weak things of this world to confound the mighty.
God bless you.

Dencotext:
DELIVERANCE PART 02

Today I want to talk about deliverance by the ANOINTED Church, using the power of the HOLY GHOST.

It is an exciting moment for me to make known the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints. Colossians 1:26. The word GOD is the most confusing mystery but through Christ, we understood it as the GODHEAD… to cut a long story short, the SPIRIT OF GOD who is the third person of the Godhead identity is to live inside the CHURCH forever. If God is for us, who can be against us?

Unfortunately all the fake teachings you have heard you received the Holy Ghost at salvation when you get born again is not true at all. You must accept and invite Him ANYTIME after being born again, depending on your faith. The Comforter is a separate promise given to us and cannot come unannounced without the manifestations. JESUS only got filled with the Holy Spirit after baptism at river Jordan. The Holy Spirit descended on HIM like a dove for all to see. After that day, Jesus began performing miracles. Anybody who got filled must experience manifestation of outward signs like tongues, prophesying, fires, dove, sound of rushing winds, falling under the power, and in the case of John the Baptist who was filled in the womb, the baby kicked in Elizabeth womb when Mary greeted her so that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied.

In some ways deliverance is not entirely taught but given to a believer by ways of REVELATIONAL gifts. Revelation is entirely strange and can only be discerned by the gifts of the Holy Spirit (the word of knowledge, wisdom and discernment of spirits). Again I repeat, these cannot be taught by books alone but those who may want to venture into deliverance can learn from other anointed believers, because iron sharpened iron. That is how we teach deliverance because you also must be led by the Spirit of God. Anointed people do not behave predictably at times because the Holy Ghost is supernatural and randomly give gifts as He wishes.

Through the discernment of spirits, when I am asleep, if I am in close proximity to a demon or evil spirits in general, in most cases, I will see them in my dreams and what they are doing. It take discernment to know that these spirits are not necessarily oppressing you a child of God, because they cannot anyway, but they are going about their normal evil ways which are disgusting to behold in dreams. You could loathe what you are seeing very well, but a deliverance minister of God knows how to figure out what is going on after they wake up. This is where 97% of most Christians missed it.
The revelations are given to me because
1. A possessed or demonic agent was close by or in the house with me.
2. Something around me was dedicated to the devil like juju, charms or incantations
3. Someone was being oppressed. (because they accepted the oppression or don’t know Jesus.)

EXAMPLE 1: One day when I slept in my aunty house, I had a dream whereby I was beside a river obsessing what a girl and some people were doing. When I woke up, I knew that someone in the house was involved with marine spirits. So I called for an emergency meeting in the house with my aunty, her son and daughter, and the house help. To cut a long story short the house help eventually confessed that when she was in the village, she was taken beneath a river where they went into the king’s chamber… I had to pray for her deliverance.
When the Spirit of God reveals something to you, no need to tell people that it is the Holy Ghost that revealed that
to you… instead give the glory to the Father and to His Son… you can confidently tell the people that it is God or Jesus that revealed that to you.

EXAMPLE 2: When I came in contact with a new convert, when she left my home, I had a dream in which I saw a woman being molested sexually by two men. It was so repulsive to watch. (To be honest a dream like this would make you feel you watched pornography and when you wake up, you will confess all your sins... but I know better as I prefer to be led by the Spirit). The next time she came again I told her that I dreamed of something bad about her, just to see her reactions. She went on her knees begging me not to withhold the dream from her, whether it be good or bad. When I told her, she said yes, that before coming to the city, while she was in the village, she was sexually molested by spirit husbands but that now it is better and had stopped because she is trying to serve God. I prayed with her and told her that no demon can molest her again now that she is born again. To cut a long story short, after many years, I learnt that she was a minister of the gospel.

The things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned. This is why we all need to build our spirits and align our souls more than getting into argument over words.

You contradict yourself, Eviana, but you don't know. You claim God's opinion is only and all-important but when I advised you to seek Him on a controversial issue that affects the destiny of souls, you rejected the idea calling it questioning your prayer life. I do that because I don't like to be an authority but to always direct the humble to His majesty.
This is also why you sound funny to me when you say I'm up for a debate because if I really were, I wouldn't direct you back to God. Re-read my posts carefully again(I don't know which you read that gave you wrong ideas, probably the unedited ones??). I did say I always prefer believers seek God in personal relationship and grow spiritually rather than delve into contentious subjects that subjugate their souls and others'. So I'm not that type. If you want a constructive discussion, I might make out time for that but as you can can see, I'm not emotional in handling the word of God. I will be firm even if you call it a wrong/fleshly approach in your own understanding. Your feelings are not as important as your soul and that of many others the truth will liberate. If you can't handle that, you're under no constraints.
However, as I said before, you seem more interested in your sacred opinion than discussing it with the Holy Spirit(who will surely tell you the mind of God) or at least looking thoroughly into the scripture helped by my query(which you can do in your personal time b/w you and God, not necessarily with me). I suggest you read through all my posts on a more relaxed and less emotional frame of mind, then choose what you wish to believe. It doesnt matter either if you believe or reject my perspective. You have just one Master and we'll stand separately in the Tribunal.
This brings our calling to mind. My calling is not to tell women the truth nor is it yours to be deceived and deceive others. Our calling is to be perfected in His image, liberating the animate and inanimate universe, having become liberated sons of God and no longer held bound under evil winds of doctrines which seek to stop us from the goal. You should focus on this. It's all that matters. Don't worry about all these little arguments. If you can't see it sooner which is to your advantage, the coming move of God will make the mind of God clear to all eventually.
And yes, that is indeed a doctrine of devils, but don't worry, you're neither a devil nor the originator of such doctrine, you just met it there and accepted it. Fortunately, this doesn't invalidate your ticket to heaven, only shortchanges your life on earth.
Once more, Jezebel, a demonized being, daughter of High Priest of Ashtharoth, from a strange land was not given a position by God, but using witchcraft subdued her husband. You should also read about judges in scripture. The judge was Moses' seat God's idea of a ruler over the land and commander of armed forces not the kings. So don't try to avoid Deborah or Junia.
No one can take your freedom of speech either from you but be sure there is no freedom after speech for men will give account of every idle notion and whoever teaches men to break the laws of God will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven and judged more severely(Mt5:19, Jam3:1) so like I said before, if you will speak, be an oracle of God otherwise, it is great wisdom to keep your opinions in your bosom safely and harmless to others.
As for your interest in learning about prayer that deals with the flesh and transforms your soul into His image, I can assure you that can't be learnt on a nairaland thread. Delving into the deep of His presence requires great sacrifice, humility, hunger, resolve and commitment. But if you want to talk about it, I'm more interested and disposed for such than destructive doctrines and arguments.
Have a blessed day, Eviana. May you fulfill your calling.

Eviana:
Finallydead, Yes, there was a thread on this topic a few months ago and I purposely chose to stay silent. Just happened to see this the other day and decided to give a female's perspective on it. I think we're gonna ultimately have to "agree to disagree". Sorry for using Ahab/Jezebel. I was trying to show what happens when a man doesn't stand in his head-ship. Ahab was wrong from the beginning because he chose to marry a non-believer. He paid dearly for that decision. I know Joyce Meyer's ministry and Paula White. I wasn't aware that Joyce Meyer was a pastor, but I know that Paula White is.I don't suscribe to the "prosperity gospel", so I would fundamentally have an issue with both of the ladies' ministries. They also have some theological issues that cause me concern. Anyhow, I know that women can and do serve mightily in many areas of the church as well as outside ministries. I do not believe that women are called to "pastor" churches. I am sorry, but I do not.I do not believe that women are called to be bishops or elders either (1 Tim. 3 KJV)I think culture has influenced the church more than the church has influenced the world. If the culture back then allegedly held women back from serving in certain positions, then the cultute of today has moved in the opposite extreme. That tells me that "culture" cannot be trusted. I believe God's order...which has never changed.The ironic thing is that I have been called a "feminist","controlling", "want to be the husband in a relationship" etc., right here on Nairaland simply because I have a "voice/opinion" and I express it. I just laugh to myself, because folks don't know me. Call me crazy, but I think a sincere Godly man walking humbly yet confidently through Christ Jesus in his calling, in any place, is close to perfection. I happen to believe though, that a few"callings" (especially the pastoral ministry) in a church setting are reserved from men...and I really like that. What the "world" deems as equality is not the same manner that Christ views church structure. It's okay for women NOT to do every job that a man does or feel that she has to have the same calling as a man. Women are still viewed as equal in God's eyes. We just have different functions.I do not care for titles because oftentimes they produce pride and arrogance.I am actually very comfortable with serving/ministering in the background.I will check out the woman pastor that you suggested I research.

First, there is nothing like equality between male and female and apart from our common fallen Adamic nature and corrupted flesh and blood, there is so much that divides both. You don't compare apples and oranges but if you need vitamin C, you can choose either.
The female is also a weaker vessel and must be subordinate to the male IN THE HOME. This doesn't stop God from using them in pastoral ministry which is according to gifting and grace and which isn't physically strenuous.
When it comes to the word of God, your humble, empathetic opinion, even as a woman in this case holds no water whatsoever(nor anyone else's) and is better left in your bosom so as not to mislead others for God is not a man and His ways are not ours.
What I have done here is to present scripture for the reader including you and to show how it was wrongly interpreted to form a demonic doctrine which is to hinder many the Lord is calling today. If you or anyone else can scripturally scrutinize my query, I'll delve deeper as time permits otherwise, I see no gain in groundless arguments. When that is done sufficiently, it's up to each reader to make their choice.
What you, however, have done is to present what you "subscribe to", "happen to believe", "really like", "care for", "are very comfortable with" and all without scriptural support towards my query. We cannot use any of those for ministerial order else the work of God on earth will not be achieved. Its always the trend when scripture goes against people's traditional belief, they simply avoid it and choose whatsoever they like to believe. Return to my queries on the scriptures, then.

As for your choice of 1Tim3, you really haven't shown how females were banned from pastoral offices. What you have there is what was applicable to the culture of the time, when churches ran only as home cells pastored by individuals (a different scenario from today's pastoral ministries) and districts were supervised by individuals over them. Paul didn't write to set boundaries for literal genders in ministry in any way here as my query proved but simply to tell what was required of those who, as per the culture of the time, were only males and both Paul's figurative male and female genders applied to all such literal males in those positions as much as the 10 maids and the bride of Christ applies to even literal males in the global church.

As for divine order you speak of, like I said before, you MUST produce 2 or 3 witnesses before you talk about divine order.(1Cor14:27, Mt18:16, 2Cor13:1). I'll be waiting for you to do that.

As for Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Smith Wigglesworth's wife, Polly(who was his pastor though he was her head at home), Aimee McPherson etc., my question to you isn't your assessment of their ministries(I'll leave that their Master) but whether God called them to found and pastor those churches.

Using Jezebel, a demon incarnate, for a female example is as good as using Nimrod or the Antichrist for male examples. If you need examples of women, called by God, who not only governed people groups but the whole land of Israel, start with Deborah, the governess(judge) of Israel, all males included(which btw is far weightier than pastoral authority) or Junia the apostle.
So Eviana, if you think you can, answer my queries, else, let's call it a goodbye from me and God bless you dear.

Cc: Bodydialect57, sholay2011

genesis6:
Is it good or possible for man to atend in a church that woman is the pastor or bishop.etc?

Is it good for woman to be a pastor in the church of God?

Eviana:
As a woman myself, I would say that a church where a woman is a pastor or bishop is "out of God's divine order". I would not attend it.

There is a reason why God has this following order in the family which also shoild be the pattern in the church:
Christ
Godly man
Godly woman

Just a few scriptures....

Genesis 2:18 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (KJV)
Ephesians 5:22-23 (KJV)


The responsibility falls on the man first...which is why Adam was who God called first, although it was Eve who was seduced and deceived and caused sin to occur.
A man that sits under a woman in a pastoral role in a church setting relinquishes the God-given authority given to him. Instead of him covering the woman, she assumes the head-ship role in the relationship..which is out of order.
We can see the consequences of a role-reversal of God's divine order by the example of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel... (1 Kings 16:29 KJV-the first introduction of the wicked pair).
Follow the story to see how it ends.
Now let me be balanced here.
God's divine order is not to be confused with some abusive patriarchal cultural norms, that occur in many developing countries.. cough...Nigeria...cough...sorry folks but it's true.
A woman has a voice, but she is not to disrespect or usurp power from the man.
Godly men are not to abuse their authority.

When God's divine order (inside and outside of church) is followed (by both individuals), peace and order reigns.

Contd.
Another excerpt from same thread.

....but the humility God really wants from our generation of christians is to understand our deprivation of knowledge of doctrine and humbly depend primarily on the leading of the Spirit for our walk and His illumination to us of doctrine/scriptures, rather than trying to take scripture at facevalue with our blurred intellect, even at the times our understanding obviously goes against the principles of Christ, which always leads to false doctrines and heresy.
1. Have you considered our deprivation in scriptures in that all we use today for NT doctrine is the epistles written to address matters arising for those who were ALREADY taught by speech the doctrine, of which none of us was present in the classes. Maybe if you were, you would have understood like everyone whom Paul wrote to clearly did(because they were taught), the concepts of spiritual womanhood and manhood, and its application in church administration, the seven degrees of spiritual womanhood( Is 4:1), the spiritual apparels of womanhood (Is 4:1, 1Tim2:12) and how the spiritual woman is saved by spiritual childbirth (1Tim2:15, Rev12:13-16), and you would even see that you yourself are among the women referred to in Paul's parable. Do you naively think we have every single thing that was taught by speech to early believers or was there ever a time that any of the apostles wrote an epistle to outline all of the doctrine of Christ for future generations?
Three specific times in all his epistles, Paul spoke of church administration consistently using the same figure parable of spiritual womanhood and manhood. But we, being ignorant of what he had taught the churches about these spiritual figures, took the figurative and applied it literally resulting in this false doctrine here. When the Lord took flesh and blood and crucified it and brought forth the risen new creation, he broke all barriers between all flesh and blood, whether gender, race, societal status and united us on the front of our equal sharing in flesh and blood into the inheritance(Gifts and all) in the new creation(Gal3:28). Stop belittling His sacrifice, solite. All flesh and blood is EQUALLY unfit for Christ Gifts except by Grace, and male and female have the very same sinful tendencies, so quit with all that women tendencies blah, blah. If the gentile and Jews can hold positions in Christ alike, so can male and female according to Gal 3:28.

2. Again, don't you know that by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall spiritual matters be established alone(Deut 17:6, 19:15, 1Cor14:29). Learn this today, you should never bring forth a doctrine without 2 or 3 witnesses, because anything God intended we know, he gave it more than one witness. Now tell us Solite, apart from Paul, do you see any single person saying that females should not hold certain ministerial roles. No. Because, it is not in Christian doctrine to share Christ and his gifts according to gender but only through faith/grace(Rom12:6, 1Pet4:10) and Paul himself never had the thought of gender-specific ministry. We only misunderstood his encoded parable.

3. Since you think to take all scripture literally, I hope you don't like Muttley suggested, go around kissing our sisters with literal holy kisses because it is written. I also hope you haven't literally cut off your right hand or right eye whenever it looked at wrong images because God said so.
I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(like we men don't. Which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my!, my!. Muttley could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul.
Or again, would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women. So that prayer is now gender specific? Solite, stop bothering women whom God is calling to pastor with your spiritual ignorance.

On the text, you quoted. Another excerpt.

This is also why you have a challenge with Paul's words in 1Cor14:35, but you wouldn't have if you saw in v34"...as also says the Law..." and the law is always the basis of such injunctions Paul gave(Also in 1Cor11, which is based on the lawof a woman shaving her head when no more under her husband and covering her head once under a man). Now slow down and read Paul's letters/acts and you would find him fighting tooth and toenail with anyone who tried to impose the traditional/literal/natural applications of the law as enemies of Christ's cross and dogs(Php3:2,18) and never bringing such a yoke on the churches(Gal3:10). So tell me, why would you think Paul would hypocritically put a literal/traditional application of the law stated in v34 on the churches. Because you missed Paul's ideology of the application of the law only in its spiritual/figurative context(Rom7:14) and never again in its traditional/literal. That's why he would say no more literal curcumcision(Gal5:2-4) but again present a spiritual circumcision(Rom2:28-29, Php3:3) and he would apply the law of the ox not for a literal ox but for the spiritual ox, the ministers of God (1Cor9:7-9). Similarly in these contentious injunctions, they are referred to the spiritual Man and spiritual Woman in the context of proper ministerial order (which was well taught orally in the churches, hence they clearly understood what was meant, never taking it literally, unlike we do, who weren't in the classes) here in prophecy and in 1Tim2 in doctrinal teaching. Ministers of the Spirit understand this ministerial order.
Lastly, Paul himself makes mention of eminent Apostle Junia (who by apostlolic office must have had churches under her oversight).

There are still more of course but chew on these first.

Cc: Bodydialect57

genesis6:
Is it good or possible for man to atend in a church that woman is the pastor or bishop.etc?

Is it good for woman to be a pastor in the church of God?

Eviana:
As a woman myself, I would say that a church where a woman is a pastor or bishop is "out of God's divine order". I would not attend it.

There is a reason why God has this following order in the family which also shoild be the pattern in the church:
Christ
Godly man
Godly woman

Just a few scriptures....

Genesis 2:18 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (KJV)
Ephesians 5:22-23 (KJV)


The responsibility falls on the man first...which is why Adam was who God called first, although it was Eve who was seduced and deceived and caused sin to occur.
A man that sits under a woman in a pastoral role in a church setting relinquishes the God-given authority given to him. Instead of him covering the woman, she assumes the head-ship role in the relationship..which is out of order.
We can see the consequences of a role-reversal of God's divine order by the example of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel... (1 Kings 16:29 KJV-the first introduction of the wicked pair).
Follow the story to see how it ends.
Now let me be balanced here.
God's divine order is not to be confused with some abusive patriarchal cultural norms, that occur in many developing countries.. cough...Nigeria...cough...sorry folks but it's true.
A woman has a voice, but she is not to disrespect or usurp power from the man.
Godly men are not to abuse their authority.

When God's divine order (inside and outside of church) is followed (by both individuals), peace and order reigns.

No, Eviana. As a woman yourself, you should learn how to pray fervently and ask God questions on important issues like this, hearing clearly from Him and not do what many males usually do - listening to their heads and not their hearts and spirit else doctrines of devils prevents you from answering God's pastoral call on your life.
In the family, the man is the undisputed head of the home. But when it comes to ministry, it is according to calling and gifting. Go and read about the founder and G.O. of foursquare Bible church. Remember Joyce Meyer, Paula White and a host of others called by God to pastor churches. Jezebel shouldn't be your choice example of a female leader as much as all the sinful kings of Israel.
In the early church, women were still in most cultures suppressed and there were many things they couldn't be used by God to do. Not today, however. There is more freedom of expression for them and God can make greater use of them by anointing them to handle certain roles fitting for the weaker vessel. Modern form of pastoring is one of such. But God will not normally give them very laborious ministerial roles which are more suited to the male gender.
This subject was sufficiently dealt with on another thread. Here are a few of my excerpts from it.

...the scriptures are full of divine parables and if we always take them literally and without the Holy Spirit's guidance,we end up with false doctrines and host of confusion leading toeven our own condemnation(Jam3:1, Matt5:19, 2Pet2:1-2, 1Tim1:3-7). If you're willing to take my advice, I always advise believers to quit trying to teach scriptures especially contentious themes that seemingly disagree with the basic principles of Christ. Rather invest in spiritual growth(which is all that really counts in eternity) through knowing the Holy Spirit, obeying God and encountering Him on deeper levels continuously and He will reveal Himself to us and whatever needs to be known in scriptures in due time and the right order.
I'll give you a chance to save this thread, otherwise please close it down as a mistake for the sake of the innocent lambs, especially females. If you can answer my question unequivocally, then we'll move on to what next. But if you can't, then you have only misunderstood this scripture and should shut down this thread.
So here goes: If you truly believe the women being referred to here in 1Tim:11-12 are the literal female gender around us, then how did God manage to integrate childbirth into their salvation programme, (v15)? Please also include in explanation what God will do about the barren women who will never give birth as well as all celibate females and even the male gender who will all never know childbirth. I could easily tell you the interpretations of Paul's parables here but as Muttley knows well, I usually avoid raising questions. Seeing you and most here have no foundation for ministerial order in Christ, I'll avoid bringing it up.
The Holy Spirit is anointing so many women today into the pastoral office not as exceptions or special cases but as a norm under Christ, in which there is neither male nor female, even where spiritually capable men are, friend. Don't frustrate their blessed souls because of your misconception of scriptures, which the Spirit never revealed to you.

Also

....So it's still not obvious to you that Paul is speaking in parables which the early church clearly understood, but unfortunately most in our generation don't. You'll probably also claim that the woman in Rev12 was a literal woman or that the Lord meant in Jon16:21-22 that the apostles were all women. And yes, the dress code there is also very figurative with each detail having its spiritual parallel, in case you dont know. Solite, it's such a clumsy defence you have given to say that literal childbirth is part of how God saves the woman without considering the sisters who will never give birth on earth. I thought you also believed in salvation by solely grace but here you are adding childbirth exclusive of Christ's finished works, for women. According to you, His salvation plan is gender specific. Even your conscience alone should tell you that an unbelieving lady also gives birth and will never be saved by that. And FYI, I didn't say the text doesn't apply to the modern woman. I said it doesnt apply here to any literal female either in those days or now.
The Holy Spirit can never go against His word but you can by just misconstruing it and not depending on Him to help you understand. Solite, since you failed to give a valid rational answer to my question, it's not too late to close down this thread or else you have all the time in the world to try again. Go read Rom16:7 while you're at it and behold the name of the female apostle who was not only an apostle but a chief apostle, in Christ before Paul.

To be contd.

Cc: Bodydialect57

Preciousgirl:
Are there people who are predestined to hell? Are there people who are predestined for eternal life? Who initiates salvation in a man? The man first or God? Can one lose his salvation? Thanks a lot

See if this excerpt of mine from another thread helps.

OP God has never sent a single soul to hell. We are born in a compromised condition which is hell-bound and God tries to save us from ourselves but since he can't force us, we have to willingly cooperate with Him. All who can fully cooperate with Him, he will be able to save completely but if we resist him as our fallen nature is bound to, we will remain in our hell-bound condition. So ask Him for the grace to fully cooperate with Him

Another excerpt on a believer losing salvation.

Some would say the only sin is the unbeliever's rejecting Jesus but the truth is that's not it. No one can accept Jesus as Lord except helped by the Spirit in the first place. The sin in question here is of a brother not an unbeliever. This singular scripture in 1John5:16 (not to mention others you referenced) completely rubbishes the belief that once one accepts Jesus as Lord, he has eternal security. So, what sin is it.
1. First, understand that this sin can only be committed by a believer.
2. As described in Heb 6: 4-6, the believer is not any misguided, immature believer but one who has passed through all the mentioned levels of development. (most believers don't qualify today. They've not even tasted of the powers of the age to come to begin with)
3. This is not as a result of how grievous the sin is, because the blood of Jesus is enough propitiation for any sin, as long as we can repent from it, and no matter how late we do.
4. This sin is the sin the Lord referred to as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit(Lk 12:10) because it is only obtainable under the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, that is the life of the believer in Jesus Christ.
5. This sin is the cause of the great apostasy of believers which happens before the rapture (2Thes 2:3). Note: the stage is being set for this already as the ignorant preaching of a 'grace' that leaves us without any spiritual responsibility toward God spreads on like wildfire. True grace however, is for righteousness beyond oneself that all around you can attest to, overcoming the struggles of sin and the flesh practically.
6. This sin is basically an outright rejection of God by believers even when there is sufficient experience of God's life and power with a known accessible alternative.
7. A believer who still grieves over his sin (he still listens to his conscience) and seeks a way out of his bondage of sin cannot be guilty of this sin because he is not wilful in sin but just ignorant of how to activate God's grace to overcome sin.

In addition, God initiated salvation for all men only in Christ from the foundation of creation. He further manifested on earth to make it a reality for men. He gave His Spirit to men to bring salvation to earth. The spiritual labours of men who have this Spirit makes it available to others. All who hear of this gospel can receive it by faith. Even if men fail, all men may still access Christ through His Spirit by faith. All who enter into Christ by faith can access this provision of God's salvation.