₦airaland Forum

Toyolad: you don't get it do you?
If there's an UNLIKELY CANDIDATE then there must be a LIKELY CANDIDATE.

Bible God is a spirit, a supreme being and not a (physical) person.

If 'by luck' a president gets elected (perhaps he does and perhaps he does not deserve it) does that mean that he wouldn't be able to exercise his power? Does that mean he would have no say in his country? Does that mean that his people wouldn't give him reverence?


What you call LUCK is what I call his DIVINITY and his MYSTERY,some things will just remain mysteries to man no matter how much you search for His source of Power and Qualities, I'm not saying you shld give up searching but just get it...that the more you look;the less you see,the more knowledge you seek about how He got his qualities and how He came to be;the more Confused you get.(Which automatically leads you to conclude that He doesn't exist) and IF you're confused on what to believe in,you try to criticize His actions.

#All is Well

Yeah. True. But you know what my likely candidate is already.

Bible God may be incorporeal, but he definitely has personhood. You don't need a body for that.

I didn't say you would cease to revere him. I just wanted to know if your reverence for him will remain the same after you find out that he is merely lucky, and not deserving.

It would be nice to not ask questions, but how much control does anyone have over their mind? I really don't understand why God shouldn't make sense.

alexleo: Like I said earlier, I like the way you make your points.

Now, based on the above, I may agree with you. And I will say that it is because God cannot expunge any of his attributes that he made a way of escape for man concerning his wrath.

Its like God saying to man- hey my people, I am a loving God and also a God of wrath, and these attributes of mine are eternal. I don't even have the power to wipe out or expunge any of them from me. The highest and best I can do for you people is to make a way of escape from my wrath for you hence the sacrificing of my son. I made this way of escape so cheap. As cheap as embracing the redemption plan by believing on my son Jesus Christ.

Its love that made God to make a way of escape for us over what he cannot expunge(wrath) hence John 3:16. The redemption plan has always been refered to as the greatest display of God's love for man in the scripture.

There is no place in the bible that duration in lake of fire was used to measure God's love. Its false teachers who preaches with sentiments that will always use his love to measure his wrath by asking us how a loving God will burn people in the lake of fire.

Its the redemption plan that is used in measuring the height of God's love in the bible not duration of lake of fire.

Based on this submission, I don't need to bother myself with the fact that God cannot expunge this attribute(wrath) since he made a way of escape for us. I would ve been so bothered if God had not made a way of escape for us knowing he has this eternal attribute(wrath). My duty now is to simply embrace the redemption plan which of course is too simple to do and without cost.

Lol @ redemption plan.

See, I still don't know why you think God, who is equally good and evil, or merciful and wrathful to quote you, would have a predisposition for good or mercy. I see enough evidence in the world to suspect that this not the case.

This redemption plan. If his motives are not suspect, why would God in claiming to show mercy to man come up with a redemption plan that involves destroying more people than it saves? It is entirely possible for God to show us mercy and unleash his wrath on any number of things to spare us. Things like plants, microbes, other animals and even property (stars and planets. Destruction of property is evil). Why should his wrath be unleashed on the one thing that is capable of experiencing the most intense suffering, if he is not 'impolite'?

[quote author=RockMaxi][/quote]Sincerely, I read the bible and I was confused. I have also taken a leap of faith and asked any God that exists to show himself to me. An unequivocal yes or no via the same channel through which he listens to my thoughts would have been sufficient. No signal.

Any God that exists is not a personal God.

plaetton: Exactly the point I always make, that consciousness, just like everything else, evolved in the universe, when the frequency of electromagnetic energy reached a mathematical threshold.
Thus, a consciousness did not beget existence, but aggregated from the sum of energy interactions within the universe.

If there is a god, a universal consciousness, then it too is the product of an evolving universe.

Precisely. Given what we know of consciousness, it is rather magnanimous to say that it - and not just the human mind but the greatest mind of all - appeared in a flash. I can hardly see how it could have been there from the outset.

Toyolad: @capslocked,that LIKELY CANDIDATE that seems to have done the job is the GOD we're referring to.



Nt a person though(not all beings are persons,agree?)Of course,He is lucky if that's what you wanna know.and He has and still using the qualities He got frm luck to control the universe.

I said unlikely candidate. Which one is likely again?

Bible God is a person. Not all Gods have personhood. If luck has a role in God's existence, wouldn't you want to re examine how much reverence you give to him?

¤

@alexleo, @chrisviral

You guys sef. Are you not bothered that God's mercy and wrath are outside his control? That what you call a loving God is a God who does not choose to be loving but one who is loving in order to balance his 'wrath'?

Also, 'mercy' and 'wrath' are not the same as 'good' and 'evil'. I think you left the issue and started talking something else.

musKeeto: You fail to grasp the import of your own argument.

Lol okay. Even where things are eternal, there is still debate over why and how they exist. And whether this God is eternal or not, it is still too fortunate that he has always had all those attributes.

musKeeto: I'm atheist.

I know. But still...

Toyolad: Never was there Nothing,cos being cannot come from non-being!..so as sir muskeeto had said earlier,you're just dancing round the obvious fact.

So tell us how the many things(in this universe) came out of this something that was.
Don't tell me you believe we and everything just came to be at ones.

What obvious fact? You know by extension, God's being has to come from another being, abi?

I don't know how the many things in the universe came to be. I don't know if it's God, tho he seems an unlikely candidate.

Imagine a God that is self existent, and conscious, and personal, and intelligent, and emotional, and all powerful and so much more. Isn't it a little too lucky for such a person that he exists? That he just sprang from nothingness with all these qualities in place?

musKeeto: This argument just states the obvious. There was never 'nothing'. Something had to be self-existent. As DeepSight would say, some could call it the Universe, others call it God.

Does it? Anyway, the crux of the argument is that nothing is self-forbidding. No magic or divinity or anything is required to cause anything to exist. Just this mindless, inanimate proposition. You could call it God, by why would you? There might be a God after all (as in a sentient one like Allah), but he simply isn't the cause of existence.

lastmessenger: Ask Ogun

Na Ogun send you abi? Mindless beast.

alexleo: Yeah i also have this believe that God didnt develop any of his attributes after creation because he said that he changes not. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And yes those attributes are those you ve mentioned.

Mercy is also one of his attributes and without sin his mercy cant manifest. Infact the word mercy would ve sounded strange to man.
Wrath is his attribute and without sin his wrath cannot manifest. The word wrath would ve sounded meaningless to us.
I too have that believe in me that God can never wipe out this attributes in him since he said he changeth not. Just like you said i also think he does not have power to change because its a combination of this unchangeable attributes that makes him God.

In the light of this, your submissions are not out of the track rather it calls for more thoughts and studies so as to arrive at a convincing conclusion. You might be right after all. Honesty i like your reasoning and aproach to this issue and that of @Chrisviral. It is more eductating and makes more sense than the nonsense that atheists usually say.

Thanks man. I like your honesty, and how you took the time to thrash this issue. I don't know that atheists usually say nonsense tho.

I don't think God's wrath fills the role of evil. His mercy does not constitute his entire benevolence either. In fact, mercy and wrath, among other things, tend to fall under benevolence, in form of forgiveness and punishment (burning people for eternity crosses the limit of punishment tho. Issue for another day). That being the case, being wrathful does not make him evil (but you have to wonder why he did not foresee the thing that made him mad). The issue of where the evil is would remain then.

lastmessenger: Stupidity stupidity stupidity

What's the insult for?

Toyolad: what do you mean by 'suppose there were nothing'?...nd what laws do you mean?


Pls pardon my dumbness,I jst wanna see things from your perspective,

Lol. What dumbness?

"Suppose there were nothing" means you should assume that nothing exists. The same kind of nothingness that you think of when you wonder how you can get something out of nothing.

Laws refers to the laws of physics.

If you think about it, it grows on you.

Toyolad:

Stumped? I understand your confusion.

alexleo: I am looking at God from what the bible said about him. God is the creator of the whole universe. Definitely he is the one that can define creation best. If i create something, then nobody can define it better than me. Also its me that will name what i created and whatever i call it is what it will be called.

Perhaps he is the creator of the universe. But there are certain things that God could not have created, for the mere fact that they are part and parcel of him. At whatever point it was that he sprang into existence, he sprang with these things. If he is eternal, these things are also eternal. I'm talking of his essential attributes, such as omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. He could not have created his omnipotence, for example. I think his goodness or otherwise are part of these essential attributes; he is said to be omnibenevolent after all.

To my mind, these are things that he has no control over. He did not choose to be omnipresent. He did not choose to be all good. But since there is no good without evil, then there is evil and the evil is equally out of his control. So he cannot be the one to decide what is or is not evil.

But you say he is the benchmark. No wahala.

Incomplete list of fake pastors in Nigeria. Beware of these men.

ENOCH ADEBOYE
DAVID OYEDEPO
TUNDE BAKARE
MATHEW ASHIMOLOWO
WILLIAMS KUMUYI
KRIS OKOTIE
CHRIS OYAKHILOME
ANTHONY OKOGIE
PETER AKINOLA
EMMANUEL OLUMIDE
CHARLES OSUEKE
UMAH UKPAI
WILSON BADEJO
CARDINAL ARINZE
FATHER MBAKA
FATHER EDE
TAIWO ODUKOYA
D.K. OLUKOYA
LAZARUS MUOKA
MARGARET IDAHOSA
S. AYORINDE
SAM AMAGA
SAM ADEYEMI
ANSELM MADUBUKO
REV EZIKIEL
MIKE OKONKWO
NKECHI ILOPUTAIFE
WALE OKE
EMMANUEL KURE
AYO ORITSEJAFOR

There is no real pastor.

For those who wonder why any thing exists at all, instead of nothing, and attribute the existence of anything at all to some sort of God or the other, I present to you a quick proof from the book Why Does The World Exist by Jim Holt which shows that there could not have been nothing, and that the question "why something rather than nothing" is therefore pointless and that God is not necessary, since there was no nothing for him to annihilate and bring forth existence. It reads;

"Suppose there were nothing. Then there would be no laws; for laws, after all, are something. If there were no laws, then everything would be permitted. If everything were permitted, then nothing would be forbidden. So if there were nothing, nothing would be forbidden. Thus nothing is self-forbidding.
Therefore, there must be something. QED."

Watertight.

chrisviral: Let me note a verse in the bible
"I have given before you the power of life and death, a curse and a blessing, that you may choose one but I advice you to choose life that you and your children may live"

That explains it all.
I have said God is everything, he knows everything, he created everything( whatsoever your mind thinks of right now, he knows it) And just like him, he made you, with the power to do good or evil, all you have to do is choose!

Why should I trust Him?
Well I trust because he created me (I mean why will he create me, give me an instruction only to fail me, doesn't sound right).
I trust him his Word is Amen, it's always the same, he never lies (Infact even if he lies, they turn to truth)
Oxford dictionary never goes wrong not because there are no wrong words there but because they are the originator of words, so is God he can't lie because what he says is the Law.
Again I trust him because all through my sojourn in life and even in the Bible, I have never heard that he failed anyone not at all!

alexleo: The origin of sin is from lucifer. First, a desire to take the place of God(which is pride) then it developed into rebellion, then the curse from God which pushed him further into evil. I think we can say that it is God that defined evil.(I mean its what he called evil that is evil). Also the tree of knowledge of good and evil was also created by him according to Genesis 2:9. Somehow you made some sense in your opinion about God and @Chrisviral that said that God is everything before creation also made sense.

I guess both of you believe that a thing is good or evil because God says it is. And that God is good because he says he is good.

That's okay.

chrisviral: I said God is everything before creation, he wasn't particularly good or evil, he was everything.

God didn't make us with desires for good, Nah, he made us just like him, with free will to choose either to do evil or good, but he did say he will show preference to good.
It's simple
I am God and I am everything, you are my sons and I want you all to do good and get a reward, do evil and I purnish you. Simple.

Toh. We are still dragging the same points. When you say "God was everything", does that include good and evil?

And you agree that he is good and bad, in equal measure. I still have to ask; why do you think he would prefer to do good things? If it is because he said so, how do you know you can trust him, since he can have good or bad motives for saying so?

I just want to know how you see it

macof: Bravo Op!
You have begun to think outside the Bible even if it's just for a while...keep ur brain thinking and ask questions you would surely find the truth

Thanks bro. But this one pass issue of bible o

Oh. It looks clear to me.

I'm merely saying that God making us with a desire for "good" doesn't mean he prefers good over evil.

And that if God created good and evil, what was he before he created them? Was he good?

chrisviral: Re-read what you just wrote, you have made no point this time.

alexleo: According to the scriputure, God's love is great and his wrath is great. I don't think that the bible said that his love is greater than his wrath or vice versa so I think both are equal. I think its his wrath that you are refering to as evil. God is not evil.

N.B you are making some reasonable points so its not as if I'm attacking your points. I'm just trying to reason with you. Thanks.

Thanks. I know you're not.

God may not be evil. But if you say he is good, and has always been, then you should show where evil has always been.

frank317: mnnnn, if God exists, he is neither good nor evil. we dont know what he is. my opinion

But you know that he is neither good nor evil?

Lol. As far as God's benevolence is not chaotic, that is, if it operates by fixed rules, I think we can hope to understand it. We can test it.

God created us good. Fine. But remember that he is as good as he is bad. His motives and actions will be either good or bad, but not both, since good and evil objectively exist. So doing something good does not mean that he likes to do good things. It simply means that he can't avoid doing a good thing or a bad thing, whenever he acts.

I believe he has continued to act, since the creation of man, and has committed his fair share of atrocities. There are things we consider evil going on in the world right now. Some of these things, like natural disasters, are simply beyond the power of man, who is normally the fall guy for evil. Fortunately, we have another fall guy, in the person of an infinitely evil God. He has the motive, and the ability. Why doesn't Christianity assign him the blame and label him evil?

The question of why he should prefer to do good things remains unanswered then. Me I don't see why he should, but Christians think otherwise.

God may have created things, but remember he did not create good and evil. Otherwise, you cannot say that God is good, since there was no evil make him good (before he created evil that is). So he cannot have the right to say what good and evil are. Besides, good and evil exist objectively, right? We should be able to see them ourselves. Also, it is not nice, while knowing that there are things that are objectively good, to say that good is whatever God says it is.

chrisviral: You have a point but we can only test God's benevolence if he was Man...
Why I said the answer to your question is because he said so is because he created you.

As a programmer, you program only carries the instruction of what you gives it, any other acts out of the basic function you have assigned to it is a dis-function. So also are we with God, since we believe that he is our creator, thus whatever he calls Evil is evil and whatever he calls good is good.
If he says you riding a car is evil, then it is evil, why coz he created all things therefore only him has the right to tell what is and what is not!

chrisviral: I thought I answered that!
God will show preference for doing good things because He said so.
I want to believe that After God created everything, (remember he created man in his image) therefore Man too like God is infinitely evil, then God set a plan in motion, started from the devil to Jesus, just to achieve the aim of Forgiveness.
Forgiveness is only available because God knows we must do evil things, He knows just saying it alone wouldn't stop it coz it's Man's nature so he set up the redemption package!

To further answer your question...
Our president like me and you is Evil and at the same time Good! But why do we show preference to him doing good? When we ourselves too don't always do good

"Because he said so". You're still not getting it.

First of all, that is circular. Saying he will do good things means he already has a preference for good things.

Also, since he is infinitely evil, how do you decide that he is telling the truth?

There is no disputing that we humans prefer good, whatever that means. God is said to be the cause of this preference, and I wonder how. So the only person whose benevolence is in question here is God, not man.

GEJ till 2199

That's why I'm asking how good he is. He deals out good and evil in equal measure.

alexleo: We can only define God(in our own little way) based on the attributes provided in the scripture.

God is merciful God. Without sin his mercy can't manifest.
God is a God of wrath. Without sin his wrath cannot manifest.

All these makes the fall of lucifer look like a pre-planned thing- to make these nature of God to manifest.

God did not develop mercy because of sin. He changes not. Mercy has been his nature. Wrath has been his nature too. He never developed wrath because of sin. He changes not.

Seriously? Lol

Why should God show a preference for doing good things?

chrisviral: I agree with you that one can say he is infinitely evil but let's look at it this way...
My father who gave birth to me knows both evil (Infact has done it atimes) and also knows evil but he wants me to do good, how do I know because he said so.
God will give me a preference for doing good things because he said so!

I love life. If I could, I would be disappointed that my life ended early. By early I mean before 80ish (considering the constraints on longevity). If I got to that age, I'd leave this earth happily.

It would be nice if we lived longer tho. Not forever, but maybe 200.

Okay man. What you are saying in essence is that God is infinitely good.

You agree tho that good and evil exist objectively, and are embodied within him. And that he is good to the extent that he is evil. If he is infinitely good, then he is infinitely evil.

One may say that he is infinitely good, and one can equally say that he is infinitely evil. None would be wrong.

You are a christian, so you expect God's influence on your life to be positive. What I want to know is why you think God will show a preference for doing good things, when you say he is equally good and evil.

chrisviral: God was/is/will be everything before/after/and when everything was created.
In simple english God is everything before anything was created (both evil and Good) he is!
To be all knowing is to know everything right, that is to say he knows even the evil we are yet to think of and still knows even the good that we are yet to see!
Well I how good is God?
God's goodness is in- exhaust (able), you cants measure it, like when you said we measure Good in relation to evil right, thus the further/deeper/badder the evil, is equal to the further/deeper/goodder the goodness of God.
Evil-----------Good
They will always be on opposite end, never exhausted. The more the evil, the more the Good.
If Blind bathemeous was not blind, we wouldn't have know that jesus can heal the blind...
If God did not allow death (which is evil) we wouldn't have know that there is resurrection (which is Good).
Finally if you think Evil is 20 then Good is also 20, cause every word must have an opposite, that is to say that God is 40 (everything is him)

What was God before he created good and evil? Was he good or evil?

And if what you're saying is correct, can I rightly say that "God is Evil", just as I can say that "God is Good"?

Plus, how good is God?

chrisviral: I think your number 2 points said it all.
Without evil, there will be no good, for something can only be good in relation to another!
We can say an aeroplane is the fastest means of transportation because we are comparing it in relation to cars, animals and foot...

So God is the creator of both Evil and Good.
God even has an evil spirit (or created them, something like that)
1sam 16:14
Now the Spirit of the LORD had left Saul, and the LORD sent a tormenting spirit that filled him with depression and fear.

Another translation said
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

So I also want to believe that when God was creating Devil, he knew that devil will rebel, for without Devil tormenting us, I don't think we as humans would have sought for God the way we are doing today, Devil was created for a purpose.
Again in Jesus situation, note that he knew Judas was going to betray him but he never said a word, why that the purpose of his coming would be fulfilled.
So yeah God created both evil and good.
Is 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Last bullet:
Is 45:11

"This is what the LORD says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?

So in other words whether Bad or Evil, never question God!