₦airaland Forum

MrAnony1: Hi BigUrban, good to see you.

1) Actually, you've just made a strawman of what I said right there. I didn't say that "things aren't true without God", rather I said that it is impossible to have logically consistent explanations for truth without God.

To explain what I mean with regards to science; I don't have to invoke God to know that scientific knowledge is true. It is observable. However, it is impossible for me to have a logically consistent explanation of scientific truths without God.

The universe functions in an orderly way such that it is intelligible and not chaotic. Science takes it for granted that the universe is orderly and then seeks to find out how this order works. The moment you question why the universe is orderly, the best logically consistent way to explain it is by the means of a creator, ditto moral truths and philosophical truths.




2) Are you saying that atheists don't believe that God doesn't exist?

This creator then, is he also orderly and intelligible?

And don't you think that we label something as orderly only because we have identified how it works? I'm not sure that anything is objectively orderly. They just happen and we say they are orderly when we understand how they happen.

Even the term chaos (in the scientific sense) simply refers to extremely unpredictable outcomes. Unpredictable to us, that is.

It is humans that are required for order, since it exists in our head. Any kind of world we find ourselves in, we will find it orderly.

calaharry: God is good because He gives you air to breath even if you refused to worship Him in spirit and in truth. He does not discriminate despite many unbelievers defiance to acknowledge God. He still allows you to give birth whether you are Christian or follow Islam or Hindu etc. But only the wise finds God in seeking Him.

The picture you paint is not one of a good person.

Is there anything intrinsically good about worship?

And are unbelievers not condemned to hell anyway? God is therefore not good?

dorox: Your problem is with the way you appear to define good and evil, which I think is a bit different in context from the bible usage.
In bible's account of creation in Genesis chapter 1, the word good appeared seven times, and each time the contextual meaning was of something fit for purpose. The light was not too hot; the day and night interval was not too long; and the distribution was just good. Gen1:3
The land mass could have been made bigger or smaller, but God saw to it that it was just good. Gen1:9
Next, God saw to it that the plants , the sun and moon, animals and last of all man that he created was good, or fit for purpose.
Good as used in the bible is not relative to something else, it means to be fit for purpose, and God's goodness is absolute, His will is total and His purpose is certain. Any will in opposition to His will is evil and any purpose not in line with his is not good because it is God that sets the standard of good and evil within which we are to work.
So God and indeed us to some extent can tell if an action or creation is fit for the purpose it was made for without having to be evil at the same time.

For the sake of the majority of God's creation who do not use the bible, we cannot define good and evil based on the bible.

Let's say goodness always means being fit for a purpose. What then is the purpose that God is fit for?

And if as you say, the bible definition of good is different from every other definition, would you go as far as to say that God has no role in those other definitions of good? One such definition is benevolence.

wisdom1759: I pray your logic don't drive you crazy

Thanks mate

Diamondpen: @op,

I think you should clearly define what you mean by good or evil because what is good for Mr A might be evil and unfortunate incidence for Mr B. I will give you an example now.

(1) Mr banker is a good loving husband, father and prays to God every morning
(2) Mr mechanics is also a family man praying for daily bread
(3) Mr panel beater is equally hoping to share from God grace
(4) Mr Doctor has spent almost 9 years of his life studying his acts and equally wants to be provided for.
(5) Mr Policeman also has family to take care of, he prays to God for mega bread

An accident occurred and got Mr Banker badly injured and his car damaged. To Mr Banker this is evil
To Mr Mechanics, Mr Panel beater, Mr Doctor, and Mr Police God has done it again.

You can see that what is evil to one is equally good to four and what is good to one can be evil to another four or more.
Meanwhile God is God for all, he must provide sustenance for all.

Lol. Nice try.

Is the goodness of God equally relative? By good, I mean what you mean when you say "God is good".

¤

victorix: there are things in this life that cant be explained....... When you meet God, you can ask him everything, why is this so, why is that so??

What if you see such an explanation in this life?

NDprudent: @ OP, d facT that ure still breathing after typing dat shows how good He is

I don't think God is anything like you. You presume to know God, I seek to understand him better, and you think I'm the one that he will strike down?

There are many people who after a period of doubt and heresy came to believe in God. They have gone on to become very good christians, muslims and such. Should they have been struck down the moment they asked the first question of God? I don't see why they should have, since asking questions will either strengthen or weaken your belief. It is not a one way track to apostacy. God knows this, but you don't and you expect God to take the same action that you, from a position of ignorance, will take.

How well do you know this God?

Fitz22: God is not a man so stop using Logic, He is the Almighty God, He is everything but u don't need logic to know if God is good or Bad. U can't understand who God is until u re born of d spirit and you understand D Trinity. This topic is not 4 u OP. Go and start from D root.

Is the topic for you?

Going by your standards, only very few people understand God. Apparently, God does not value being understood very much.

And if you did not understand God at the time you were being born of the spirit, what exactly was it you had in mind as the person to whom you were giving your life?

It is not wise to go about giving your life to ill understood higher powers. There are demons afoot. You could very well belong to one who forbids you from inquiring into his nature in order to protect his identity.

GodMode: finofaya

You should read this:

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I
make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Hope this answers your question...

Read and study the bible or other holy books and u'll notice god and satan are just imaginations of humans.

Its a start

tjones007: [color=#003399]in the beginning when man was created. I don't think they could distinguish between good and evil. Even when they where naked they felt no shame. And God instructed them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After the fall of man. This is why when man is born we could distinguish what is good from what is bad.

And you asking if God is Good and Evil. Even when job questioned God. God showed up and said "who is this that darken my counsel with words without knowledge" job 38:2.

Now every readers embrace yourself and answer these question.

Where were you when good and evil when created?
What purpose was good and evil created for?
Where were you when the tree of knowledge of good and evil was planted in the garden of eden?

To the op who am I to question God about good and evil.
All I know is he can do all things and no plans of God cannot be thwarted

I stand in the awe of God[/color]

I'm not questioning God. However, how do you know that he is what he says he is? Remember that there have been more than a thousand Gods in the history of man. Whose word are we to take?

shigoslim: @OP God created both Good and Evil.

Evil can only befall man if disobey the will of GOD, this evil is created by God to punish man for his disobedience .

Good can only befall man when he start keeping, obeying the will of GOD , is then man will realize that GOD is good.

Evil befall king Nebunezacky and turn to animal eating plant for good seven days because he disobey the will of God. In other words the picture is clearly shown that God create both and good and bad (evil) for man to justify that God exit, and to keep his will. Though man is band by flesh, but God gave us sufficient grace that is Jesus Christ.



I will relate it to preaching of BIBLE, did your know that evil befall the Israelites when they disobey God, but were later relief when they came to GOD.

Look at it this way; if God is omnibenevolent, he could not have created his omnibenevolence any more than he could have created his omnipotence. So if God is omnibenevolent, the good was not created by him, and neither was the evil by which we consider him good.

Emmalot121: Have you ever tried faith?No!!! You claim it does not work even when Doctors have testified to the fact that patients with faith heals quicker than patients without.The Bible is a divine guide for mankind which if strictly followed,no court on earth can justifiably jail you.
As for unanswered prayers,all prayers of righteous are answered except for the fact that the inability of mankind to effectively predict the future makes him think his prayers are unanswered because he lacks understanding of the long term effect of the short term GOOD of his prayer.That is why Christ said:all that happens to man happens to him for his own GOOD.
The topic I wrote's motive is mainly to show you there is no bad God,It is his absence from us that creates bad.

What kind of faith are you asking me about? The one that includes evidence or the one that excludes it?

What doctors testified? In whom or what did the patients have faith?

The bible prescribes killing a man for worshiping a God other than Yahweh. How do you plan to justify yourself if you follow this instruction?

I only wanted to know whether God is testable. But we both know he is not. If something about God is said to be false, you will say it's an exception, or appeal to faith or something. God does not fail any test.

For example, you say Christ has said that anything that happens to a man is for his own good. Let us test only the truth of this statement. We're not testing God or anything. If it so happens to a man that he dies a sinner and goes to hell to be tormented for eternity, is that for his good? If the answer is yes, then the statement is true. Otherwise it is false. I'd like to hear your take.

God may be good, but what does good mean where there is no bad? What is the bad thing that makes God good and how did it come about?

colly227: Go watch "Mega mind" I think that's the perfect answer to your question.

No one will be crowned a champion without defeating an opponent. In other words "in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God"

Now looking at that you will understand God was just there and was bored that he had to create all for fun or to keep busy. Now if you read further you will understand everything was heavenly but if there was no evil how will Adam and Eve understand that God is good and the Almighty since there no one rebelling him? If you go further you will wonder what the forbidden fruit was doing in the Garden of Eden if it wasn't there to fool man and for those who thinks the forbidden fruit they ate is sexx please read this

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold ... lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

Now it really makes me wonder why the tree of life was created. I personally think it was designed for Adam and Eve to eat so they could know even thus understand the greatness of God else they would have been forgiven.

What I'm saying is that there is no good without evil. If God was good before adam and eve, then there must have been something that we compare him to in order to conclude that he was always good.

kadas01: The Truth is very simple but man has chose to complicate It!


TRUTH IS: The "Immeasurable Goodness" of GOD ALMIGHTY brought "everything created" into "being"!


And "THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR" Said....."Let There Be Light"!!!.......


The above testifies that THE GREAT CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH "does not and would never know evil"!! There is "nothing" like "evil" existing around "THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF"!


HE is, and remains "Goodness" Personified!


Shalom!

That he may be. My issue is where the evil that made him good was.

patostation: Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ (Colossians 2:8. Compare Act 17:18, 1Cor 2:13).

Everything that is not according to Christ is an elementary thing of this world? Is that not too narrow?

You can't function properly in this world using only the bible as a guide to your behaviour.

Lolosky: He's ''WHO WAS , WHO IS, AND WHO IS TO COME''. So He has bn good, nd He is good and will continue to be good. Get used to that mann.

That's a comforting thought, until you start to wonder just how much control God has over evil

Billyonaire: In absolute truism, there is no good and evil. Everything works towards singularity. Think about earthquake, for victims of the cataclysmic natural tectonic re-alignment it is evil, but within the cosmic creativity, its core goal is the alignment of the san adreas fault, a sequence that can only make the planet better.

So in essence, Cosmic Infinity codenamed God by religion is neutrality. Both good and bad is of same source. That source is what you call God....2 sides of the same coin.

Yeah. I'm not sure that there is actually anything good or evil.

chronique: You can never know how much or how good God is,until you stop/are almost not breathing. Only the dead can answer that properly cos if given a chance,I'm pretty sure they'd choose to live again,despite all the troubles and chaos in the world. God is too good for you to know how good He is.

Which dead people? The ones going to heaven or the ones going to hell?

See, I don't mean any blasphemy, but God is not too good for us to know how good he is. Otherwise, how do you know that he is too good?

doubleDx: Amos 3:6-7 (KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


Proverbs 16:4 (KJV)

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God is any one of the two?

The argument wasn't clear enough for me. In the context of the argument, what does the premise of duality have to do with the existence of God? Am I to understand God as the presence or absence of something? What is that thing?

And if you say good and bad are not two separate things, I'd like to know your definition good and bad.

This issue of faith now. Faith has been defined to include or exclude reason. Some people think you have to reason first, and then have faith based on the evidence (don't ask me how they came about such a convenient definition). Others say you should just have faith.

Where faith includes reason, nobody has said where the limit of reasoning should lie. By such standards, anybody that is reasoning is on his way to having faith. So you can't tell anybody to stop reasoning.

And where faith excludes evidence, it is (respectfully) BONKERS. In such a case, you can reject faith, based on faith, since you don't have to explain anything.

Plus, evolution is a scientific theory. It is testable. Once it fails any test, it is reviewed. So whether you see it or not, you are free to test and review it. Do you have such freedom with your God? If he does not answer a prayer, do you review him? Unless you consider God a scientific theory, there really is no basis for comparing evolution to him.

I think the conversation is drivel sha.

Being a local religion, the yoruba religion is more attractive than any foreign religion.

So the sons and daughters and brothers and sisters of he who took the last glance do not make it to paradise?

And the moon was lit when the sun shone not. What about the earth? Any word on whether it'll freeze over in the absence of the sun?

God knows what he's doing. This ebola outbreak is not an oversight. If he was joking, he would not have allowed the first patient to die. If it was an expensive joke, he would not have killed health care providers.

Stop pestering God

Toyolad: He may be the answer to "why does man or life exist?"..okay

And you think He just created life without thinking about what(anything) they will need to survive

Listen bro,before man came into life,everything he would need to thrive and survive already existed!

If you think God can be the answer to how Life came to be,then who or what is the answer to how 'anything' that is needed for man's survival came to be without mentioning God

Or u telling me that two supreme beings(or somtin u dnt knw) joined hands to do d job of creation?(One created things and the other created being?)

U misunderstood me bro. The 'anything' in "why does anything exist?" refers to any thing you can think of, living and non living, and to the extent that it is applicable, even God himself.

Interestingly, Igbo men here in KD get very apprehensive when a snake creeps into sight. "Na from village them send am" they say, while reaching for sizeable plank.

They should know better

God is our attempt to breathe life into hope in the face of an uncaring world.

But if God exists he is the one that needs us. Eternity is a long time to spend alone. Especially for the emotional Gods.

alexleo: My dear God is a creator. A creator has a concept of what he wants to create at a particular point in time. God created the living things and the non living things. And each of the things he created under this two distinctions have their uniqueness.

In the case of man, his concept was to have a being that will be in his image with higher ability to choose and make decisions etc(than the animals).

Having created that, the next reaonable thing to do for a being you gave such a freewill will is to inform him of the consequences of his choices. And God has always done this from the beginning. He has always warned man on the consequences of his choice right from the garden of Eden.

A little example could be this- A son grows up and ready for marriage, the parents calls him and tells him the consequences of choosing a bad woman for a wife. If the boy goes and choose a bad woman he suffers the consequence. You don't blame the parents again. They played their part as parents. Same way God has been warning us on the consequences of choosing the way that leads to his wrath(which is eternal). You don't blame him for the choice anybody makes. Salvation is too cheap so nobody can say he didn't accept it because of the high cost.

What your position equates to is that evil is a more powerful force than good. That is the only way to explain burning a person forever for an act of evil he has committed. For if God was equally good and evil (or merciful and wrathful) then consequences would be equal to their causes. Even more so where God is said to be predisposed to doing good.

But we find that people go to hell for telling lies, no matter the gravity of the lie.

What you say about God may be true, but only if God is more wrathful than he is merciful. More evil than he is good.

Not that I'm holding him accountable tho. It's his nature, and he has no power over it.

Toyolad: Okay,more like Not Our own God.But the being you're talking about,U don't consider it a supreme being,do you?

What being? I don't consider it a being. I don't like to explain the presence of one being by calling on another being. That'll simply lead one to try explain the other being.

God may be the answer to the question "why does man or life exist?" but he is scarcely the answer to the question "why does anything exist?".

Toyolad: WHAT IS YOUR LIKELY CANDIDATE?

Not God

lastmessenger: Only a beast post stupid thread on nairaland.

Abeg jor. I know you don't like it, but that is not the yard stick we use to decide what is silly.