₦airaland Forum

fadosky607: Lol... So do u do the questioning since u aren't a 'lazy mind'? I suppose u must be a devoted scientist right now since u aren't a 'lazy mind'. If u just only question and wait for oyibo scientists to find d ansas for u, den u are not far from lazy urself o... U Nigerian atheists are not even to b taken serious cos u are all obviously influenced by other atheists around the world and THEIR self acclaimed researched theories. But if it were left for u to get dedicated to science and to making real scientific research, u would be jus as lazy as every oda persons u accuse of laziness! U think reading other people's atheistic work and getting so convinced so as to become an atheist is called research and hard work? U beta reevaluate ur stands again then! U are equally influenced by these persons jus as church goers are influenced by pastors and reverends and d rest!

Is this sarcasm or you just silly with passion? Did you saw me with scientific theories?

Get your fact straight. Some atheist here aint scientist which I am one them. I dont read any atheist work and I think people here can confirm that. I read people, my environment and nature than following anybody's fictional work and mindset.

We are know that there was a time in our community where people think elephant or lion give birth anytime it rain and the sun appears at same time. Some people belief thunder is the anger of God. Are these the fact? Do we know what the fact is today or not? Im very sorry, if you dont know what it is. I question and try to give answer to situations. If you think everything happening in your environment is God or supernatural, you need to put on your thinking cap bro

fadosky607: I always tot atheists valued facts over personal sentiments. Are u proving me wrong here? Or is it also dat atheists don't bliv in secular history? If they do bliv in history, then u are supposed to like I said OBJECTIVELY confirm these facts b4 jumping into a sentimental conclusion as u just did. Don't diappoint me plssss!

Do you even bother to read the link I provided? And whats sentiment here?

satanist: Good question, first of all a satanist is basically one who lives by the basic satanic laws [lex talionis] satanist are basically atheist, since we disprove the existence of a deluded god, but satanist are defacto atheist , since we view ourselves as our gods, you might also be shocked to know that satanism is not devil worship, as long as you live by the satanic rules, you are a satanist. for more insight visit the church's website churchofsatan.com

Oh my God...... Cant believe im satanist. If I may ask, who/what is satan?

fadosky607: If atheists don't bliv in supernatural forces, then how would dey explain such displays as magic,such things as native bullet proofs(shoot but e no enta)? Or have u sincerely never seen someone performing magic b4? Or is it also called science?

I think the best way of viewing things is firstly taking religion dogma away from your mind. There are things happening which we shouldn't deny but we dont know how it work now. Even though you know how this things are made, you might possibly not know how or why it happen that way. I dont call things supernatural. They are all paranormal under a natural processes. Paranormal would be something that cannot be explained by any known means. That doesn't mean it's beyond the physical world, just that we can yet find or have missed the explanation.... So why cant you keep questioning rather than resulting your lazy mind to God and Supernatural?

fadosky607: Have u actually carefully studied bible prophesies? If u honestly did, u'd come to d realisation dat u totally mistaking! For instance, consider d prophecy God gave Isaiah about Babylon's destruction.(Isaiah 13:19; 14:22,23). Details were given to show just how dis would happen. Invading armies would dry up Babylon's river and march into d city without a battle. That was not all. Isaiah named the king dat was gonna do dis-Cyrus.-Isaiah 44:27-45:2.

It was fulfilled only after 200yrs later dat dat prophecy got fulfilled just accurately as it was prophesied... A Persian king named Cyrus conquered Babylon!

This is what we called Eisegesis which is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text.... Read about it here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

It is indeed a brilliant but dubious work. Would you believe me if I said Ogun god of Iron is angel michael or saint George? These are things I can frame from my head

Obadiah......dont forget our deal......2016, your prophesy fail and you end up in jail. Dayuuum

I have a dream that one day, zombie will invade human communities

Samunique: If u care to listen bros! Christian faith is not an organised human religion, neither is the bible a collection of human wisdom or idiology, the very Overseer of christian faith is d Holy spirit. The Holy spirit inspired Jude to repeat the prophecy of Enoch and u shld also knw that Moses also prophesied the same thing "Deut 33:2" this tells u the continuty of the bible and Spirit the inspired it. Meanwhile, the Man "Enoch" Jude is talking about here is a well known biblical "Figure" he's d man who walked with God, he was translated and never tasted death. Gen 5:18-24. As for the book of enoch u a talking about, ther is no any concrete evidence that this book was written by this great man of God called Enoch, that's why it is called apocryphal. Moreover, we have several books written like that, which are fraudlently named after these great biblical "Figures" these are the books the church Fathers deemed unacceptable and separated them from d real word of God, they are apocryphals/ none canonical. For instance, u must av heard about d gospel of banabas, gospel of Jesus' infancy, which is called the gospel of Thomas. I can continue naming them, but one thing i want u to knw is that, Apostle Jude never quoted from apocryphal but the Holy Spirit was repeating what He once spoken through the mouth of his servant "Enoch" u need to read the bible from Genesis to Revelation and see how wonerful accurate, sequential the bible is. Diffrent people of diffrent generations, lived in diffrent places at diffrent times and yet, they carried on with the same message without spiritual contradictions! That's what makes d Bible unique from other religious books who have only one Writter/Bringer whose source can not be ascertained but based on assumptions or in most cases superstitions. For out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth will be estabilshed, that is d Bible for u! The oldest but ever new Book!

If only you care accept truth and fact instead of doctrine and blind faith, jude specifically says he is quoting from the written of Enoch. The bold also indicates he is repeating the written account of Enoch. But pls if the same holy spirit inspired Enoch was it that inspired Jude, why was this written document Jude was quoting from not canonised? If you claim Jude was quoting from Deut...it not stated there that the words is drawn from Enoch prophecy.

Deuteronomy 33:2
English Standard Version (ESV)
2 He said,
“The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand.

This is exactly what Jude said :

Jude 14–15
14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

The bold part is saying clearly that Jude was quoting the prophesy Enoch said. The Red part convey the message which is not in Deut. you stated. Here is the message from Enoch himself.

BOOK OF ENOCH
Section I. Chapters I-XXXVI
INTRODUCTION
[Chapter 1]

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Can you make any difference? Also Jude didn't say he is quoting from Moses but Enoch prophesy and exactly what he said.

You cant call somethiing the catholic church passed down as fraud by accepting only what promote your doctrine and exclude other books. The Coptic Bible and the Ethiopian Bible have this book intact. The question remains, why were the books not included in your own bible despite the inspired apostle of God quote from it. Could this mean he quote from fraud like you said too?

chukwudi44: i already told you that these books were not canonised because they were not included in the septuagint which had been the defacto xtian old testament prior to the compilation of the bible.Whatever criteria that was used for the selection of the books of the septuagint we dont know.I think the chch fathers just wanted to play safe by not including scriptures that were been disputed

The church fathers should be agreed as people who form christianity then. Thanks

This is public nuisancy.... I think this religion is turning to madness. Why would you go to hospital to pray to patient who are not your family or friends? Nigerian Government need to do something fast before this get out of hand. We need a bill to deal with this nuisancy in our environment

bobby.L:
Haba, may God forgive them. Attacking defenseless people in that manner. To all the churches, fear not and be not dismayed. "In the world, ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world".

The churches should report to appropriate authorities, but please do not repay evil with evil, although it's difficult, try to show love. The Lord is your strength.

See this one.

How I wish you can tell your pastor to build church in Okitipupa when they are celebrating Irokute festival with the custom that drum shouldn't be beaten within the seven days period. Or when it Oro period.....ask your wife to go and sit down outside because the lord is with her. You dare custom and culture by saying the lord is your strength. What ever you see, admit it as your fate and blame yourself.

Christianity has done more harm to pagan........it time they start respecting culture, tradition and custom. I think they have pushed tolerance to the limit.........

Enigma: Lots of hot air over something which is not a problem for a Christian theologically or otherwise.

How can this be a problem when most christians are clean cut hypocrites. You only accept what the church added, subtracted and their doctrine outcome as your faith.

And to give the lie to Roman Catholic and others' falsehoods about the canon of the Bible, the Ethiopian Church includes the Book of Enoch in its Bible and canon. So can one then, strictly, say that the Book of Enoch is not part of "the Bible" or is not part of "the Biblical Canon"!

Bro.....the question is not for Ethiopian or Coptic christian. Why is the book of Enoch not included in your 66 protestant bible despite it been quote by Jude.

In any event, the passages from the book of Enoch are themselves taken from Deuteronomy and elsewhere in the traditional Old Testament.

Oh my God.....where did you get this from?

There are other matters about the book but increasingly it is not really worthwhile discussing these things in an atmosphere of such ignorance, lack of wisdom and pandering to people with an agenda.

Typical christian way of ignoring question for silly attack.

It worth something discussing with me. Christianity.....scripture inspiration are all church scam. Beat that

I dont really enjoy anything in this thread. It just boring like lone in abyss......Let Obadiah handle this.....he knows how to remix and tiny the swaggy ginger.

This is not creationist theory.....hold to what belong to you. Shalom

chukwudi44: Bros there


Bros there was no established canon until the council of jamnia 90CE(for the jews) and the synod of hippo(for the christians).Prior to ths individual church fathers have set out canons which they think should be in the canon but no defintive council or meeting took place top look on this issue before the aforementioned councils.

we noe know that several other scriptural writings might have existed before the these canons were canonised but the fact remains that there is no record of any canon passed down eiother by the jewish prophets or the apostles as the scriptures had existed as seperate writings and not one as one unit which we today call the bible

The bold part put some lights to my question. We both agree that some writings and book had exist before the canon. This books were used and mostly consider inspired

Can I ask the reason this books and writings were not cannonized despite the fact that they were used and quoted among the prophets, apostles and jewish scholars? Even the fathers, priest, bishops and the church use this writtings as inspired word of God for teaching until it was not included in canon.

Could this mean church defines what christian faith covers and act like God?

Could this mean so called God doesn't get involve with christianity and the faith is church sham?

Tunsbobo: As if this is news, I've had crude oil gushing out of my taps since 1998

How could it be if the police can trail you down and get you arrested for stealing government oil? This is how people like you put themselves in trouble

Yomieluv: Wizzy should take things easy,before him,there were celebrities,he should get that to his thick skull..Jmartins also,should have respected himself,than banter words with Wizzy.

Jmartins is playing the role of elder and more mature musician here. If nobody can control and correct wizkid mistake, then dont get angry if he rain insult on all his fans one day which you one of them.

Wizkid should just shut up and learn how to respect people

This is a blow from PDP. Nigeria politics sha

chukwudi44: The book of Enoch was never in the bible hence the question of anyone removing it from the bible should not even arise.The other point you raised that every piece of writing was considered scripture before the catholic church canonised the bible.That is very far from the truth.There were various arguments among the church fathers considering the canonicity of scriptural writings before the bible was compiled.It was the need to avert the risk of adulteration of the scripture that led to the compilation of the bible by the catholic church in the late fourth and fifth century.

The coptic church alongside other oriental orthodox churches broke away from the catholic church @ the council of chalcedon in 451 CE

After they left the catholic church,they went ahead to add more books to the bible that was canonised by the catholic church @ the synod of hippo 393CE,councils of carthage 397CE,419CE

Do folykaze needs this whole epistle? Nope. Was there no scripture and document used in theological teaching before the compilation into one volume of book called bible? What were those document or scriptures called before it compilations?

Can you please quote the deut verse jude was quoting from. I have posted the verse jude was quoting from as he made reference clearly to Enoch from the book of Enoch. Were the coptic those who insert jude 14-15 to the bible of today? Pls answer that. Thanks man

musKeeto: Folykaza, you are more pantheist than atheist. Check it up

Im still moving bro...... My take on Yoruba spirituality makes me pantheist. Im only touching the periphery aspect on spirituality, specifically yoruba and really enjoying it. Wishing to explore more.....so dont tag me because I might sit back in it or deject at the end

lacum: there where many books written those days and all can not definitely enter into d bible. though i dont know d criteria for choosing d books butvi think chukwudi got it correctly when he said that d book of enoch was not in the septuagint so d catholic church canonized only the septuagint and then added d new testament books.
NB: that a book is not in the bible does not mean its not good or even inspired so just like every author, st.jude quoted d part he thought and was convinced to be true and that does not mean that everything said by the book of enoch was true. so the book of jude was inspired even if he quoted enoch. enoch may be inspired but its inpiration may not be for d edification of all. like i said b4, i dont know d criteria for chosing d books but dat what might have happened

You got some points but I wont fully agree with you.

The oldest fragment book of Enoch was written in Aramaic Targums and some part in Hebrew......this was the outline book of Daniel contained. Both were translated from Aramaic to septuagint. Aramaic came to be used as the common language of many of the jews living in the territory of Persia, and so it was necessary to accompany readings of the Hebrew Scriptures with the translations into the language. So it should be believe that the book was translated from Hebrew to Aramaic. The Greek septuagint was the most of the early versions of the Hebrew Scriptures......Jesus teaching found in the book of Enoch and Jude quoting from it is an evidence that the book existed during their days. The book could not have been translated to septuagint and this could be the reason why it considered lost until it found the Ethiopian Ge'ez was found.

My point is im not disputing everything in it flows along with christian doctrine today. Even evidence is pointing that most of the book contradictes christian doctrine today. This could be the reason this book was rejected and not included in the bible today. Most of, the bible contradict itself so removing a complete book and quoting some lines that drive doctrine should be highly questioned. So therefore, Enoch wrote from Inspiration if Timothy 3:16 was right. The whole books removed should be brought together so that people grasp full knowledge about their doctrine. Half or part knowledge of a doctrine cant be accepted to say christians today are truely in the true path.........christianity is a church cake not until the full documentation and theological writers are known

truthislight: You have started again !

You will water down the bible to project your tradition.

What if we just take every thing contain in the bible as a lie ?

Im seeing things.....we knew this before....just hard for christians to agree on this.

yunglykmine: Even the fear of God is dead & gone.. They have to Rob God.
I blame this on the Unemployment rate in Nigeria. 'Guyz must survive'

Is God now Priest or Pastor?

Didn't bible warned you to keep your treasure in heaven and not on earth where thief will steal it? Learn to keep in heaven not earth......the armed robbers fulfilled bible prophecy. Kudos.

No bi only pastor and priest go dey chop money from people ignorance. This is the case of Olegbe Olegba. The equation is balance. But when are this armed robbers that visiting our politicians and high profile pastors?

homesteady: This boy is wicked!! I can't imagine what the mother went through looking for him!

This is the reason checking of parental care by the government is more necessary. Imagine serial abuse they might have caused this child before he sneaked out? For a kid to take such a risk, there is something wrong somewhere

deeptesting: I am tired of our police, in another news a police man is accused of killing a deejay in Lagos, what is the problem with them? Are they cursed or what? The worst of is that nobody is doing anything about it, other than the usual slogan that the culprit has been arrested and the matter is under investigation....I have lost count of how many innocent citizens that have been killed as a result of negligence of this men this year..What is accidental discharge? I wish God truly exists,if we as humans can feel so much pain in our heart about this injustice, how does he feel that he cannot come to the aid of the poor by bringing this pathetic world to an end...

The police are the real virus corrupting every section in this country. They are the armed robbers and also serial killers. If and only they can be scrapped......Nigeria will be relieved from this destabilizing ailment

Osun people... Pls let swap mimiko and Aregbesola. I promise to give you share from oluwa glass.

NoContract: Peeps in...

SMH. Another tribal thread.

I'm out.

what should we expect? You are a coward supporting your cowherd fulani.

When the fulanis were killing your brothers senselessly, you didn't cry for tribal tagging but was yelling to God and Government to save you. Now the people had change their destiny with their own hand....they had retaliated and proved they aint coward like you.

Go and tell your animal in human skin cowhead fulanis not to dare yoruba........

Frankmishael: Christembassy gonna convert all bokoharam memebers to Christian so Τђåt they see the light soon amen.

Keep day dreaming. I dare your pastor to stop using body-guards who possess live weapons. Tell Pastor chris to go to boko haram camp with the bible only...... Im very sure his part of body will be send to his wife, children, church headquarter, you and personal friends. Beat that

superior1: The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) are estimated to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably was composed at the end of the 1st century BC (wikipedia)

@OP, some parts of the book was written in 300 BC and others as late as 1BC, meaning after Jesus must have been given birth to. Now Enoch lived before Noah which predates Abraham, Moses etc. That will probably 2000 BC. Isreal's Captivity in the time of Daniel was around 700 BC, so how can Enoch be alive to write the book of Enoch in 1BC?

It is wholly extant only in the Ge'ez language, with Aramaic fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls and a few Greek and Latin fragments. For this and other reasons,(wikipedia)

Part of the book is written in Latin and Greek, even we can't prove Enoch neither spoke Geez and Aramaic, a little sense will tell anybody he never spoke greek nor latin.

Now, let me give you 2 scenarios

1. If we have an adage we use in my mother tongue which has been use for a long time, if 2 separate authors quote the adage in their book, it never mean one copied another, it may mean both are aware of that adage

2. If an author A quoted author B in his writing but author A's book was talking about a more ancient history compared to that of author B, it doesn't mean author B copied A.

Finally, the book of Enoch wasn't accepted among the majority of Isreal, whereas there was consensus about others canonised, the odds are Jude won't quote from such book. Most Biblical scholars believe the scenario 1 is what took place but there was no doubt the author wasn't Enoch.

Book of Enoch is nothing but a fraud.

The bold part is really showing the whole bible is a hoax. Jude was not the only person that quote from this book....jesus does too. If jude can specifically quote from this book, could this mean letter of jude was written later in the 2nd century BC?

the text of the Book of Enoch was considered lost until the beginning of the 17th century, when it was confidently asserted that the book was found in an Ethiopic (Ge'ez) language translation there, and Nicolas- Claude Fabri de Peiresc bought a book that was claimed to be identical to the one quoted by the Epistle of Jude and the Church Fathers.(wikipedia). The book of enoch was not primarily written in Ge'ez but the one found in Ethiopia was a translation. It was from this pieces found latin fragment was made. non-Ethiopian scholars tend to assert that the book of Enoch was first written in either Aramaic or Hebrew; E. Isaac suggests that the Book of Enoch, like the Book of Daniel, was composed partially in Aramaic and partially in Hebrew. (wikipedia).


YOUR TWO ANALYSIS IS WRONG.

In the letter of Jude...it is boldly written the was he was saying was documented in a book and he brought his statement to it. There is difference between making same claim from same origin and making a claim referencing your source directly. The latter indicates you coping from your source directly. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these. Here it is very clear that what he was writting is directly from Enoch......the book of Enoch contain the exact message jude was trying to convey which implies Jude quote him. This is direct and intact.

Second analysis is completely wrong. How does quoting an author with reference pointing you quoting from an author implies you not copying your work from another source?

You cant conclude a book is fraud without showing how it fraud. The content of the book were quoted by Jesus and quote referenced to letter of Jude. The Coptic and Ethiopian Christians have this documents or book in their own bible. So why does the catholic makes your own faith different?

If the book is fraud...jude wont quote directly from it or it makes Jesus related teaching, hebrew judaism and jude writings included in the book of enoch makes it all fraud. Meaning the whole bible is fraud

chukwudi44: The fact is that all the books of the bible are scriptures but not all scriptures are in the bible.I think the vook of Enoch was not canonised because it was not in the septuagint.The septuagint was the major basis for the canonisation of the OT scriptures by the catholic church of the fourth and fifth centuries.

Besides Enoch ,we also have scriptures like jubilees and some other writings mentioned in the bookks of Kings and chronicles but did not make it to the bible.Even the assumption of moses was also quoted in the Letter of Jude.

You still not answering my question... Why was it removed? Every writing document were scriptures until it canon by the catholic. If they weren't scripture, they wouldn't have been quote by other bible writers. The Coptics have the Book of Enoch in their Holy Bible. Also, translated versions from earliest time didn't start with sepuagint....we had the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Aramaic Targums.

Why are these books included in Coptic bible and not in your own bible? Is it the catholic who determine fate and your faith?

Joagbaje: @ op
Post the quotation from the two books

Do you follow the thread at all? I posted the quotation from the two books to superior1. Read it there

Richfella: You speak from both sides of the mouth. Your post also means that God also wants your so called 'Terrorist Book' OK?

I promise he wont come back.....that make them christian....