₦airaland Forum

The updated Yoruba bible have replacement of Esu as Sátánì. The error is well known, even many Christians want to use that misconception to antagonize Yoruba spiritual system. Only the ignorant folks and frauds who stands on the pulpit to spew barefaced lie on their sheeples would say Esu is devil or Satan. The error was from Ajayi Crowther, a brainwashed slave who knows nothing about Orisa system.

A rational person would try to identify Satan and Esu separately, and also compare and contrast their nature and characteristics.

Esu of the Orisa system is not anti-God. This figure has never contested or challenged the authority of Eledumare. As we know, Esu is the right man of Eledumare. Esu is the messenger of Eledumare. Esu is stands at the doorstep of heavens and the keeper of all the Ashe in the universe.

This nature is non comparable with Satan mean Adversary. Satan is an opponent, opposite, and rival of Yahweh. Satan challenged the authority of Yahweh and wished he can sit on the throne. He waged a war against Yahweh which he was defeated and barnished into the earth. The coupist, revisionist and reformist took their inspiration from Satan. And who knows, maybe Yahweh is a hell of tyrant dictator.

So well who is the Devil. Firstly, devil is the personification of evil. It is an evil and erring entity. Yoruba people call Devil ẹni burúkú. If I am going to argue, neither Satan or Esu is devil. My case would be centred on what evil is, how and who perpetrate evil.

Evil refers that which is unpleasant to the total well being of humankind, or that which works against the welfare of humankind. It manifests itself in human experience as suffering, pain, moral wickedness, and the wrong that human beings do to one another. One will agree that evil is harmful to mankind or bad morally.

While there is no record that Esu has done any harm to anybody. The effects of Esu trickery is to trigger challenges that can elevate one spiritually. Satan didnt cause any harm to anyone in the bible. The ignoramus only blame Satan or Esu for their ills.

Yahweh or the Christian God is the devil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Lamentation 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

It is Yahweh who created evil and calamities. It is Yahweh who ordered evil things to happen. Therefore, he is the devil.

2019endofapc:
Whats this Abokki saying Dullard is going home to rest come 2019

One of the airheads that invaded nairaland. Cast your vote for whoever you so desire. Majority takes the lead. You can havd your say but wr are having the way. Buhari is winning this. Take that to the bank

Nobody notice the sound of the dead party that destroyed Nigeria. Buhari is having my vote again. They can kick bucket for all I care

#unfollow thread

Emmanystone:
I didn't intend to make it so. If my question was answered directly without attempts to trash my faith, then.... Continue, am out.

Yout intention here is very obvious. You wanted to throw puunches by forcing your faith into Isese.

Emmanystone:
Ogboni has it base in the Yoruba cosmology i guess? And, Ogboni has become a household name in Nigeria. Almost everyone outside the True Christians are into Ogboni. Now i'm getting it.

Why then do people blame Christianity for the state of the Nation, when our leaders are hardly even Church goers?

What has Ogboni have to do with Orisha system? How does True Christianity come in?

You even asked what if Abọ̀rìṣà died and found out hell is real. The intention is Christianity is right and Isese is wrong.

Create your own thread if you really want to talk about your faith. This is ATR not Abrahamic discussion thread.

Emmanystone:
No, you brought all these sir. I only asked a simple question but you left it and vied into my faith.

I brought? I brought Esu into Christianity? Where nd when? All your post indicates you want to start a unnecessary debate. I don't have interest or maybe you can create a thread for the show and invite me.

Emmanystone:
I have a mind of my own. I must ask someone else about everything.

When you are ready to learn, please use google

Emmanystone:
Knowledge breeds belief sir, for if i don't believe (have confidence) in what you stand for that it will work, i won't seek the knowledge.

Why will i seek to know what you do if i don't believe it will work for my benefit? To seek enlightenment is to make profit of a thing. It has to be because i need enhancement or to be outstanding in something or a view. Now, if i don't have CONFIDENCE which is Faith, which ia believe, in you who holds the key to that enlightenment, how will i come to you in this first place.

So, sir, you see that you who have confidence in Esu, believes he or it can help you in a way. You are a believer in Esu.


Oh Pardon me sir. I may have misunderstood this↓

That was what you said sir. Pls clarify.

I already charged you to read about believe and knowledge. Google can help if you do not havs philosophical books. Thanks

Emmanystone:
There are indeed, but if a man feels he can get away from being accountable to men, the only court he shd fear is the indeterminate court of God, but if he also is made to believe that, there's indeed no evil per say, and no God who requires accountability from them, and no consequences for their actions, what do you think will become of such a man? He becomes an animal, just like we see our society gradually falling into that state.

You said 'Reformed Ogboni'. There was crude Ogboni before the the reformed right? Well, someone tried to.educate about the difference between the Reformed and the Main Ogboni. I see no difference at the end, because Motive is always the yardstick or drving force.

And, about the Anglican forming a frat. Hmmm. It would be good if this Anglican priest can say where he got his inspiration from to form a frat.

For who? Christians? What happened the the Church?

For what? What is the motive behind it. To what end? What do we as Christians stand to gain from the frat?

Going by tje frats activities, are they advancing the Kingdom of YHWH? How many evangelical crusades have they held? How many missionaries have they sent into lost nations? How many orphanages are they running?

For Jesus says we shd SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM. and in all we do or say, we do as unto the Lord. Are their activities in thw refoemed ogboni as unto the Lord?

Will Jesus say to the Anglican Priest on the last day 'Come in faith servant, you have done well, come in my rest?'.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John:6:15
Pls sir, don't take this personal. No be quarrel.

Let's start with the Model of our Faith, Jesus. He never involved himself with the politics of His day, Why? because His Kingdom is not of this world.

If the alters have been turned to political centers then you shd know where the allegiance of those pastors lie.

Again, that is not to say, the Church is to shun them. No. They have a duty to pray and counsel them, but do not interfare.

Wicked King Ahab used Jehoshaphat to get counsel from a Prophet of God, he got it. The same thing happened with Jeremiah king Zedekiah.

Jesus no send anybody to invove in the politics of the world, they are on their own. So, don't put it on Him.

What or who is the source of this Love? And, what induses or engenders this true love you are talking about sir.

Going by what is being said in this thread, i do not see the essence of Love o. For, Love works better with Will Power and the freedom to choose between two options.

And, love works hand in hand with Justice. They are cojoined twins. You can't separate Love from Justice.

AND, IN THE YORUBA COSMOLOGY, as i have noticed from what you guys write here, there is no JUSTICE.

This has nothing to do with Christianity. I only asked why the blames in the society is laid on the Church for the actions of men who work so hard to disobey the rules placed by the God of the Christians.

Yoruba mythology through ogboni, which is the leading guild for anyone who intends to be a politician today, has impreesed on them that there's no accountability for them when they die, hence, they do what they do without any guilt and expectation Justice. Why then is the blame going to the Church is the question i asked.


If you escape from Men, you won't escape from God.

Ok. Stick to the sweet dead jew nailed on the cross. No come derail this thread.

FeelDeMusic:
are you Yoruba?

Yes

Emmanystone:
Do Nigerians/Esu believers make Nuclear weapons? Really?

Firstly, Abọ̀rìṣà are not Believers or have Faith. That is for the feeble mind. We rather seek Enlightenment and broaden knowledge. Maybe you should find out difference between believe and knowledge.

Secondly, where did you come about the question you have up there? Definitely not from me.

Emmanystone:
Bros, nah the same thing me and you dey talk so o. The divine law which guides morals and the law of retributive justices is not in Yoruba Cosmology.

So everyone has the leeway to do as they please nah since no accountability. Our leaders must be believers in this, hence; their blatant-devil-may-care towards their activities. If they know they'll held acxountable for how they lived on earth, maybe our country would be a bit better.

Ogboni has it base in the Yoruba cosmology i guess? And, Ogboni has become a household name in Nigeria. Almost everyone outside the True Christians are into Ogboni. Now i'm getting it.

Why then do people blame Christianity for the state of the Nation, when our leaders are hardly even Church goers?

There is a law and legal lay down among the people in the society of Men.

Reformed Ogboni Frat was founded by an Anglican Reverend. Maybe to you he is not a true Christian. ROF is called Ogboni Onigbagbọ. This shows that it is purposely for Christianity.

Our leaders are been sworn into Office with Bible and Quran. We saw that they have even turned Alter in Churches to Political campaign ground. And they publicly align with Christian or Islamic faith by going to church regularly, paying tithe from stolen fund and almost metamorphosing CAN and MURIC into political party. With the churches here and there, has social vices reduced? Nope.

The Yoruba peple are been called Ọmọlúwàbí for a reason. The fact that we do not have guidance law written in some paper does not negate the truth that iwa rere is very important. A love or good character that eroded from fear of hell or damnation is not geneuine. True love and good character is when you act willingly, without coercion, to make the world a better place. Ìwà-pẹ̀lẹ́ lo jẹ omo Odùduwà lógún.

Please do not let me attack Christianity. Lets keep the discussion clean

FeelDeMusic:
Hmmmm... now that I'm unsure of.. I've never really heard of Abiku before really, I know that it's some kind of reincarnation of a child that dies at a young age and keeps coming back? Like ogbange or something?

Fruits may mean sort of the same thing as I said earlier, but perhaps since a fruit is sort of like the offspring of a tree, maybe the woman gives fruits to the egbe as a sort of substitute offspring... it's hard to explain... sorry!

You try sha. I don't know either why Fruits are been sacrificed to Emere. You're very about Abiku.

FeelDeMusic:
To be honest, I think I have a theory as to how the sacrifices operate. No, I don't really like this aspect of the religion myself if I'm being honest, but I can at least tollerate and accept it as it's not just kill a goat or a chicken and that's that, just to kill. Here's my theory:

Every animal, as Folykaze said, has its own ase (Ah-shay), meaning power/lifeforce/energy, like chi in the Chinese spiritual system. This ase, just as with the ase of anything, can be manipulated or controled. So, for example, one comes to a babalawo and tells them that they are having troubles with their children at home, that their children are not listening to what they have to say to them. The babalawo does a reading for them, and concludes that they are not raising their child propperly. And so they then promise to do such a thing. However, that's not quite how it works. The babalawo says that a chicken must be sacrificed in order for everything to take affect, but this, you see, is because the sacrifice sort of acts as a promissory note that they wil do what's being asked of them.

The ase from their promise to do good will then mix with the ase of the chicken, and as it's being killed, the chicken will then completely fill with that person's ase of promise. At this point, the blood is basically filled with that person's ase, the chicken's ase is completely void and gone.

This is just my theory on why this may be done. Unfortunately not much knowledge has come out as to why ebo of animals has been done, and there should certainly be more knowledge on the subject so then people won't instantly dismiss everything as gross and "fetish".

A quick question please. What is the role of FRUITS that are usually sacrificed to Egbe Emere to prevent a woman from bearing Abiku?

Emmanystone:
That is what i said nah. There's no evil in the Yoruba cosmology be that nah. Everybody dey do good abi?

No one said there is no evil. What I did said is that the concept of sin, divine law that guides moral and end time judgment is not present in Yoruba spirituality.

Emmanystone:
To know enough about Esu to attrack his blessing and avert his curse. Oh wait, is Esu an it or he?

After knowing about Esu, the decision of how it to their life is theirs.

More like Urea, people spend money to know how to use it for their own desire. It is either to make a nuclear weapon or fuel a nuclear reactor. That decision is theirs to take.

MuttleyLaff:
Meaning Esu has a similar evil modus operadi like Satan's
and so was given the place of satan the devil
The necessity for a name, is the mother of that substitution
The Yoruba bible translation had to be completed with a Yoruba name for Satan,

Esu's idiosyncrasy, apparently, fitted the bill like a hand fits in a glove

I think the new version of the Yoruba bible have corrected the anomaly and ttanslate Satan to Satani.

Why didnt Ajayi Crowther translate Jehovah as Orisha Oke, Mary as Moremi, Jesus as Orunmila and the likes?

Emmanystone:
Okay. So, we settle for 'No satan' in the Yoruba cosmology/Mythology' (?)

Hmmm. I just learn something here. No being is totally evil in the African Traditional religion. No Heaven, no Hell.

Only the realm of the Ancestors.

Meaning the wickedness in this world will not be recompensed. No wonder the hearts of men are set in them to keep doing evil. No Recompense of Tribulation.

But, what if there's indeed Hellfire? I mean, what if A Yoruba traditionalist dies discovers there's indeed Hellfire, Heaven and satan?

A ṣègbé kan o sí. Eni guro ika, aya a je, omo re a je, oun na a wewe sun. One does not plant okra and expect to reap yam. It is more like a cause and effect. Who would judge a wild animal who feast on a little baby when the nature of that animal is to eat anything it can subdue and has flesh?

There is no Hell. Ifa didn't mention anything like that. We have Aboku sooro and no one has ever claimed he went to hell or stuff.

Emmanystone:
Meaning, Esu is not evil, but to have a satan in the Bible, he was given the place of satan the devil?

But, the cult, what is it for?

The cult is the place where one can know more about Esu.

Mujtahida:
ATS is quite advanced and accords with common sense. The fraud of those who say God spoke to them in a book.
But then who speaks through IFA? I really don't have a clue about ATS but I think I'd be comfortable with it if not for the sacrifices as in ebo. Anything fetish, juju, or blood sacrifices I have strong aversion to such things.
My concept of God is nature. Let man just live in accordance with nature and he'd find true spirituality. The spirituality that comes through dictates in a book is what has corrupted man.

Ifa is a collection of history of the world, orisha and people in the distant past. Orunmila though is the divinity that own Ifa. Just like Ogun own metal.

I personally do not know how the blood sacrifice work. But I believe it would be fascinating to know before disregarding it.

MuttleyLaff:
and Yoruba spirituality has no concept of this description of what sin is, you earlier said. Right?

No

MuttleyLaff:
Iwa-pele for the benefit of non-Yoruba speakers, means "gentle disposition"

Yes.

MuttleyLaff:
There must be a justification for this
Why doesnt Eledumare give Mankind any standard or divine law that guide how we life?

There is freewill

MuttleyLaff:
Hmm, some laws guiding the livelihood in a community, like what?
What does "These laws are set basd on the moral view of Men not God" mean?

In some community, there is a law that prevent one from stealing. The same law is created by the leader of the community.

MuttleyLaff:
Hmm, interesting and I can relate to this description
I like the description, though, I think, "Ashe" correctly mean Authority or Influence
and Power would have been translated from "Agbara or Ookun"

Ooookay

Ashe relates with potency or power to make things happen.

MuttleyLaff:
Kindly break down Eledumare,
What does the word, Eledumare really mean and/or what properly is the name all about?
Why is Olódùmarè called Olódùmarè?

Eledumare when broken down gives us El + Odu + Mare. This mean owner + energy + with infinite end like rainbow.

Eledumare is the source of all Energy in the universe.

MuttleyLaff:
Thank you, so nothing to compare it with then

Interesting

Hmm interesting bunch of a whole load of stuff

Similar way, the typical wacky-and-die glutton, acknowledging the worth of the stomach or belly, has the stomach deified?
Same way, drunks or alcoholics, acknowledging the worth of beer, spirits, rum, alcohol etcetera, have any of those drinks deified?
Same way, chrematistics acknowledging the worth of money, worship and deify it?
Same way, people acknowledging the worth of inanimate or not alive object, lying around a shrine somewhere, have it deified?
It's true, people make gods of things

Hmm. I follow your drift. OK

The mouth is called Olubobotiribo. This is the deity that receive most of Ebo.
Money too is an Orisha called Aje.

However, Yoruba spirituality acknowledge the essence of this things in material form but what they worship is the real essence. Aje (God of wealth) is very important for our existence. Aje is not the coin or paper note but the value it carries. The paper is just like a representation or material face.

More like a nationalist honoring the flag of a country, the flag is not the country but the representation or symbol of the country. I guess this is why some JW ain't supporting nationalism because they perceive it is Idolatry.

The so called inanimate objects are all energy and vibrate on a frequency. However, they are symbolic representation of the essence of Orisha.

Man does not create God. The system is call Abalaye.

MuttleyLaff:
1/ Why is Esu bad?
2/ How did Esu come about?
3/ Does Olódùmarè approve of Esu being deified?
4/ Is Olódùmarè pleased and/or happy Eus is deified?

1. That is his nature.
2. From Eledumare.
3. He is the keeper of Ashe. So yes.
4. Eledumare is not just an emotional creature. I learnt that Esu, Ajogun and Eleye are in position to keep balance in the universe.

MuttleyLaff:
Forgive me, I dont understand this
but why, to what end is this collabo with Esu?
How is any good going to come out of fraternizing with big bad Esu?
Is there not a better way to have full understanding of Esu and it's nature without association with Esu?

To either become a Priest or Initiate.
Without Esu appealing on one behalf, there wont be good either. He is at the middle of tbe cross road. Esu bless women with kids, wealth and close relationship with other Orisha.
No, without joining Esu cult, you will only be entitled to know very little about thr Deity. More like Ifa cult or Ogboni. One cannot know much without joining the specific field. Would you know quantum physics by going to Banking and Finance class?

MuttleyLaff:
if not entirely bad, why at all, is Esu bad?
Why and what do some people join Esu cult for?
Is Esu, a law unto itself or Esu is answerable to a higher power?

I believe Esu is bad becaue that is his nature.

Becoming an initiate of Esu cult will enable one to have full understanding of Esu and it nature.

Esu is answerable to Eledumare.

MuttleyLaff:
Did you mean to type completely, instead of complicated?

That was a typo. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

MuttleyLaff:
I thought as much, that likely that's how and where you gathered your understanding and knowledge of and about hell from

Hell or better put, Hades, actually is a Greek concept, the Jews have no concept of Hell or Hades
they have Sheol, alright but as earklier said, the concept of Hell or Hades is a Greek one.

I like your cautious rendition of Hell,
which in the real or proper sense, actually is the Lake of Fire, otherwise, called the second death

Interesting.
In Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence of a concept of sin

Doubly interesting.
In Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence eternal damnation or some kind of jidgdment after the end of the world.

By the way, thanks for your earlier question responses
but wow, what, as you've come to know, learn and understand, is sin?
If you explain what it is, maybe, it will make understanding its absence in Yoruba spirituality
and why Yoruba spirituality happens to be hell agnostic

Sin is any form of action, though or feeling that is against or contrary to God's law.

Yoruba spirituality focus more on attaining Iwa-pele. Eledumare does not give Mankind any standard or divine law that guide how we life. Actually, there are some law guiding the livelihood in a community. These laws are set basd on the moral view of Men not God. The Orishas too have some certain principles except Eledumare. He/It has set everything in motion.

MuttleyLaff:
Hmm, so Orisha is a spirit that represents the manifestation of the Supreme Authority

Please share more light on Orisha and the Supreme Authority
1/ Kindly explain in details, how does Orisha, as a spirit represent the manifestation of the Supreme Authority?
2/ What is the Supreme Authority, does the Supreme Authority have a name the Supreme Authority is known by?
3/ What is Orisha known as, called or name?
4/ Is there just one or there are more than one Orisha?
5a/ Why does Orisha have to or need to be a deity among the Yoruba or any other people for that matter?
5b/ Is this exclusive to the Yoruba only, as in, a privilege not extended to non Yorubas

1. The Supreme Authority is the infinite source of all Ashe (power). And Orisha are the facet. More like a pool of energy with electric aspect, kinetic aspect and more aspects of the pool.

2. It is known by the name Eledumare or Olódùmarè

3. Orisha is simply an Orisha.

4. There are many Orishas like Ogun, Sango, Oya, etc

5. This is a very important question. I believe anything that is called God or Deity must be worshipped. Worship literally mean acknowledging the worth of someone or something. Therefore, an Orisha, in whichever form, plays an important role in the existence of Yoruba people and the world at large. For this reason alone, they are Deified.

5b. It extends to Non-Yoruba. Though these Orisha might take on another name in another culture, but they have ssmblance in nature and character.

Emmanystone:
Sir, the satanists will disagree with you on this. To them satan is not bad at all. He blesses them with wealth, protection, Some get children from him (as they claim)

The call him the Humanist. They believe he is closer to them and answers them quickly when they call.

And they are names after him too. Devilin. Satin (female name for satan) Devellina, Devellon, Devellin, Devin, Devlyn,

Wow. This sounds more interesting. I am hearing of those names for the first time.

More added points.

Esu is not anti God. He does not drag supremacy with Eledumare.

Esu was not sent down from heaven. The best access of reaching other Orisha and Eledumare is through Esu.

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, I replied to your email, did you receive it?

Got it.

Emmanystone:
Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you. No need to be hash.

Noted.

Emmanystone:
So, can Esu be termed as Satan then?

No.

Esu is not entirely bad. He protects, defend, bless and sometime uphold justice for Mankind. Yoruba people name their children after Esu. We have names like Esudara, Esubiyi, Esusola. There are also some people who join Esu cult. If Esu is entirely bad, no one would have embrace it. This is unlike Satan that is complicated evil.

MuttleyLaff:
1/ Please what, comprehensively according to what you've come to know and understand it to be, is hell?
2/ There ought to a plausible reason why there is no hell in Yoruba spirituality
so why then, is there no hell in Yoruba spirituality?
3/ Kindly, give a comprehensive and high level illumination that shows what and all that Orisha is?

1. My knowledge of hell is from Christian belief. It is a place filled and surrounded with fire where sinners, demoms and satan are going to be punished after judgement by God.

2. There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality because of the absence of Christian concept of sin, eternal damnation or some kind of jidgdment after the end of the world.

3. Orisha is a spirit that represent the manifestation of the Supreme Authority. In general sense, Orisha is a deity among the Yoruba people

FeelDeMusic:
Hmmm, well Folykaze, you make a very interesting case and, from all of the information you've provided on this thread, perhaps you're a bit more truthful than Vaxx is. Again, I really can't say yes or no as I'm not extremely familiar with Ifa so I can't really say whether either of you is truly right in what you both say.

Also on the concept of aje/iyami, Vaxx proposed that they are not evil necessarily, but that they are not good either. They have powers both good and bad, and, from the book that I've read, the Yoruba believe that they control the world. Is this true?

Aje that I know about are antagonist of Orisha and Human being. They are popularly called Eleye

vaxx:
shadeyinka, i guess you are looking for similarities beween the yoruba ATR and Christianity faith.somehow we are resemble , in fact our faith also has a resemblance of islamic teaching with other known religion in ATR every soul has access to Olodumare by using adura, iwa (character), isera (fasting), ibewe (petitions/requests), igbekele ninu olodumare (unshakable trust in God), ebo riru see what odu iretekanran says:

IRETE OKANRAN, LO DIFA FUN ORUNMILA BABA AGBONMIREGUN NI OJO TI GBOGBO AWO FI PADE SILE OLU-AWO, IFA SO WIPE KI ORUNMILA KI ONI ISERA, KI O GBAWE SULE LONI, KIO LE BORI OTA, KI O SI REYIN OLODI, ORUNMILA GBO, O GBAWE, OGBADURA, O SINI SERA, LOJO NAA NI ORUNMILA BORI AWON ONISE IBI TI O FE SEKU PA ORUNMILA, O SI REYIN ODI.

The meaning of this Odu is:

Irete Okanran made divination for Orunmila, Baba Agbonniregun on the day when all the sons of the secret (Babalawos) were gathering in the house of the chief diviner. Irete Okanran advised Orunmila to make a fast and engage in prayer the whole day, to not eat or drink anything at the gathering. He would do this in order to gain victory over his enemies and those adversaries conspiring against him. He heard the advice and did as prescribed. He fasted and prayed until the day dawned and as a consequence he conquered adversities and gained victory over his enemies.

Another bullhii iit from Vaxx.

There is no Babalawo that would ask you to fast and pray. Where are you getting all these crap from?

Oh I see. You only copy this garbage from African American website and showcase it as if you are an authority.
http://www.akamara.com.br/cosmology_id1.htm
Pheww.

Orisha a gbe e

vaxx:
No, do not misinterpret me, i never said human problem are caused by ajagun, ajagun and his war lord are symbolical representation of negative force... they are as well important in Yoruba cosmology.... you cannot blame your predicament on someone or anything else because olodumare give us the ase(sango) to trancend every obstacle, and if we have not transcended it, it is because you have failed to make the right decision at the crossroad.... esu is simply the decision/indecision you make not a demons as the Yoruba bible dictate it .so a force to change is required...

prayers are offer to olodumare thru orisha, all human concept of negative force are created by olodumare including death..... yoruba do not have the concept of demons ....

Oh geez. This guy won't just stop. Are you an indigenous Yoruba guy/girl? Please if you are an initiate, you need to polish your submission with backup from Ifa. And if at all you are not an initiate,you should at least try to reference your post from the Babalawo you heard or learnt most of the things you keep reeling out from. Seriously, when you try to swindle your way out, you set yourself into more confusion.

Ifa was right in one of it sayings in Otuurupon that goes thus; Omode ati Ogberi o le mo awoo Egun, afi bi a ba fawo han won (a child and non-initiate cannot know the secret of Egun unless such is review to him). You are just a proud sheeple (like the Ogboni do say) for mentioning that Egngun is a simply a man hiding under veil.

For your information and sake of those you are misleading, Aje and Ajogun are foes of Mankind and the Orishas too. Prof. Wande Abimbola, a renowned Babalawo from the South West Nigeria quoted in his book, Ohun Enu Ifa, and Oju Odu Merindinlogun verses from Ifa that emphasize on Ajogun. In these books, one would understand the nature of Ajogun that it has nothing benevolent to grant humanity. These Ajogun are eight in number. They are: iku(death), arun(diseases), ofo(loses), Egba(discord), oran(calamity), epe(curses), ewon(imprisonment), ese(mishap). The leader or the divinity that can order around these Ajogun is Esu.

Esu is a primordial divinity who serves as the Inspector General of Ebo, the keeper of ase and the master of trickery and confusion. He is believed to be the author of confusion, capable of creating enmity between two good friends. He has the authority to unleash Ajogun, his agents, on the person who decline to push them away through Ebo. This is confirmed with Ifa sayngs that goes thus; Eni rubo ni Esu ngbe
Riru ebo ni gbe ni
Airu ki i gbeeyan
(Esu only support those who appease with Ebo
Appeasement through Ebo is an advantage
Refusal is a disadvantage).

It is only with Ebo that one can evade the wrath of Eleye and Ajogun.

In Odu corpus called Irete-Egutan, there is story there about the activity of Esu. The excerpt says that Esu, Orunmila and Aje (eleye) were friends. They were walking together and heard some noise distance away. The noise was from three brothers and sounded like a cry as if people carried corpse from a distant. They all went into hiding because it was a taboo to see corpse. Aje found out and informed her other friends that those wailing carried a dead deer, which they thought it is human corpse. Afterward, they agreed to trail those crying to their home so that they can verify if they are truly pretending. When they got there, Esu, the trickster, was tasked to investigate Aje alleged claim. He did by approaching the brothers house as a young lady so as to have a view of what the brothers had inside, but she was stopped. Esu again attempted approaching as an old man, he was stopped and sent back. He finally appeared as a little baby and crept in. The brothers thought he is a baby and let him in. But Esu spiedand saw that Aje allegation was truth. He reported back to Aje and Orunmila that those three brothers cries is a pretense. Aje became enraged and suggested that they kill these brothers by taking them one each. Esu and Aje killed their own victim. But the third brother brought a sacrifice, comprising the meat of the deer, yam and palm oil, to Orunmila. Orunmila accepted this sacrifice and hid the young man in his house. He cooked the meat and prepare Pounded yam, and he invited Esu and Aje to come and share his own victim with him. When they came, he told them it was his habit to regurgitate whatever he eats. And they all ate together. The following day, Orunmila visited Esu and Aje with the young man. Esu and Aje were annoyed and accused Orunmila for behaving treacherously. Orunmila defended himself by saying that he had already informed that he vomited whatever he ate.

From this story, certain facts need to be given consideration. First is the action of Esu. As in many cases, he employed treacherous tricks to discover what the men were doing.

Secondly, the closeness of Esu and Orunmila is emphasized in the story. As we can observe, both are closely related although their relationship cannot be strictly defined because of ambiguity. But here Esu acted as the agent of confusion, destruction while Orunmila acted as agent of peace and salvation. Esu killed the brother alloted to him while Orunmila saved his. The youngest brother survival was as a result of the Ebo performed. The Ebo invariably removed the malevolent eyes from his life. Ifa confirm characteristics in many verses.

Esu mase mi o (Esu do not endanger me)
Omo elomi ni o se (Endanger someone else)
Pa ado asubi da. (Turn around my suffering).

The above prayer in Ifa shows that Esu can unleash his agents on one to bring life endangering issue into one's life.

On the side of Orunmila, it is a knowledge in the general public that Orunmila is the Odudu ti n di ori emere, t'o tun ori eni ti o sunwon se. Ao kí n gbo buburu lenu Abore.


Thirdly, the story reveal that Aje or Eleye are foes of Human. Ifa verses authenticate this by praising them as:

Iyami Osoronga (My Mother Osoronga)
Apanimowaagun, olokiki oru (The one who kill without any stress, who reign in the dark of the night)
Ajedo tutu mo bi (The one who eat fresh liver without vomiting)
Obirin kukuru regi regi (the short, robust lady)
Eyi ti i lo nigba oja ba tu (that visit the market after it has been deserted)
Ori mi gba mi lowo awon Eleye (My Ori should save me from Eleye).



The primary importance of sacrifice is revealed in the story. Ifa holds that Ebo is a peparation to appease Ajogun and also exchange. It means that Ajogun must feast on something. When there is nothing to feast on, they take charge on Men. But with Ẹbọ, we can replace Men with stuff the Ẹbọ is prepared with. When an Ebo is prepared and accepted by Ajogun, there is certainty that they would retreat.

An Ifa verse goes thus:

Baba gbulu erin (Baba intercept Elephant)
Baba keso efon (Baba interfect Deer)
Ogbonrangandan nidahun omo odo (Ogbonrangandan is the response of pestle)
Ba m' madiee mi abapa yabuge (Bring me my Hen that flap it wings)
Yewu kan soso o le gbó kùnrin meji (A room cannot contain two men)
Paaropaaro, awo ile Elepe (Exchange, the secret of Elepe land)
A dia fun Elepe (Cast Ifa for Elepe)
Won ni o fi odidi eran paaro araa re (He was instructed to exchange himself with a goat)
Nítorí Ajogun (Because of Ajogun)
Ki Iku ma ba pa (so that death will not conquer him)
O gbo riru ebo (he heard the instruction passed to make the sacrifice)
O ru (he obliged)
O gbo eru atukesu (He heard the instructions passed to make atonement to Esu)
O ru (He obliged)
O gbo ikaraa ebo ha fun un (he followed all the instructions laid down concerning the sacrifice)
O waa n yin awon awoo re (He then praises his Awo)
Awon awo re yin Ifa (His Awo praise Ifa)
O ya enu koto (He opened his mouth)
Orin awo lo bo si lenu (And the Awo song pour out)
Ese ti o na (The leg he stretched)
Ijo ni fa a (It quickly turn to dance step)
O ni bee gege (He passed decree)
Ni awon awo oun n ssnu reree pe Ifa (That his awo will call unto Ifa with good mouth)
Iku waa Elepee ni le (Death searched for Elepe in his house)
Ori eran lo mi lo (But went away with Goat head)
Paaro paaro, awo ile Eleepe (The exchanger, àwo of Elepe land)
Arun wa Eleepe re le (Diseases searched for Elepe in his house)
Ori eran lo mu lo (But he went with Goat head)
Paaro paaro, awo ile Eleepe (Exchanger, the secret of Elepe household)
......

The stories, verses from Ifa and common sayings among Yoruba people negate alot of your grounds.

1. Eledumare was not mentioned in any story or verses. This shows that He does not interfare directly in the affair of Mankind and what befalls them. This points that Eledumare is a Deistic conceptual God.

2. Monotheism is a believe that there is only one God who created the world and intervene directly in the affair of the world. In Yoruba spirituality, the assignment of creating the world was pass on Obatala and later undertook by Oduduwa. Most importantly, there are 401 Gods in Yoruba spirituality. So I do not really know where the heck you get your monotheism in Orisha system from.

3. Ajogun are malevolent agents. They do not give anyone anything other than sorrow, tears and pain. The principal of the Ajoguns is Death and just like every other agents, they have nk benevolent attribute to mankind. The only known way of resisting them from inflicting their evil on us is through Ebo.

4. Surprisingly, you keep mentioning a negative force and trying hard to separate it from demon. I think this doesn't add up because a negative force is malevolent just like Demons who are also Malevolent agents. For example, Demons bring misfortune, just like Ajogun do. Therefore, we can say that Ajogun is a demon.

5. You are also trying to blame Ajogun on human. Don't you know animals and plants die too? Do they not get sick? Can you explain how the infliction of Ajogun on animal and plant an effect from Man wrong behaviour?

Tise ti se ni obuko fi n ba iya sun (An Ajogun called Mishap caused he goat to have sex with his mother)
Tise ti ṣe ni omo odo fi n lu iya e (An ajogún called mishap caused pestle to beat his mother)

These two figures are not human but Ajogun still struck them. Would you blame human misbehavior for their infliction?

vaxx:
cutema. dridista, i am dropping my pen here... maybe the new dude can educate us or what do you think?

The thread is for you and a question has been thrown at you. Do us a favor by telling us what Ajogun is and the benevolent aspect of Ajogun.

You even madd some think Ajogun is Manmade. Lord