₦airaland Forum

vaxx:
i will prefer you watch your tongue when replying me, pls i deserve to be respected just like you did. you can simply type you disagree.... by giving me reasons which i should explain...

You are only distorting the concept of Orisha by eliminating the real essence and this cannot be accepted.

When a body of water in Ondo state has a dedicated shrine and purported force called God by adherent, it is an insult for someone to write some junk calling that God ordinary water.

You buddy should be the one that needs to apologise for calling the Deity of some people simply 'a man hiding under veil'.

vaxx:
first of all the Yoruba do not have a "heaven" that the dead roam around in and chat to each other as you are insinuating . Such a place is completely superstitious. you need to be able to seperate superstitious believe from the original one... The Yoruba word "orun" does not equate to heaven but just means the spiritual realm. It is not a "place" but a part of the dual aspect of the one world which is a union of the physical and spiritual.

Baseless. The Egungun dwell in Orun. Everyone knows that what I am referring to Heaven is Orun of the Yoruba cosmo.

vaxx:
when a person dies, they don't go to a "heaven" but their spirit lives on thru you. They literally live in your blood. A part of their spirit eventually finds another genetic relative to reincarnate thru via the blood/DNA. This is the practical understanding of the egungun as the spiritual aspect of your physical DNA and not the human being that cover himself in mask

My dear, you do not just create words without any reference to Ifa. All you wrote up there is absent in Ifá.

The dead ones can always be call upon through oro. This is what Ifa said. And when they are called upon, they respond as Alaye. Also they can be invoked to amend or appease on behalf of his/her heirs.

vaxx:
The Egungun's role is only to help us carry out the plans we have devised. Only Egungun (revered ancestors) can do this; they are distinct from just Egun (ancestor, any dead person). When one becomes Egungun, they have the power to positively help you via your veneration of them. so it is not the person in mask but the revered ancestor... their thought, their heroism while they were alive...

When one speak from both sides of his mouth, he loses his respect. Were you not the one that said Egungun is simply a man hiding behind a veil?

To the emboldened, the ritual, atonement and ceremony for Egungun is all because of thoughts, heroism and achievements while they were alive? Where do you get this nonsense from?

vaxx:
read my post again, i have explain in details the concept of ajogun.... pls i will not be repeating myself....i will only be explaning what i have not touch.... i cannot be going in cycle...

All you have written in your previous post doss not address my question. What is Ajogun and please tell us the benevolent aspect of Ajogun

FeelDeMusic:
Ok.. so yes and no? You don't really believe in God but you enjoy the Yoruba spiritual system, am I correct?

I enjoy the philosophy

FeelDeMusic:
Ok. So Esu is sort of both good and bad? Hmm.

Everything have the positive and negative aspect.

Esu also bless person

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, are you an Ifa believer?

A spiritual athiest with a passion for Isese. Not an Olorisha but an adherent

vaxx:
He is not getting it that way, he is seeing ajogun as supernatural being with other opposite of life as being on their own..... forgetting that , yoruba ATR uses an expression called symbolical format... that is why we represent egungun as an ancestor... egungun are simply human being who hide under the cover of a mask... they are just symbolical representation , yoruba also uses stones to represent esu, iron to represent ogun, thunder to represent shango etc...

All you've written above is hogwash. No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more. So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

vaxx:
let me put some enlightenment here, in the domain of ajala mopin , some irreversible decision were made which are both physical and spiritual , the physical decision include your gender, race, color DNA, blood group and some other element you have no control over, while the spiritual side are made in two area which are Apari-inu represents character; Ori-Apere represents destiny.

Destiny itself is also divided into three areas: Akunleyan, Akunlegba, and Ayanmo. Akunleyan is the request you make at Ajale's domain- what you would like in specifics during this lifetimes. The number of years you wish to live, the kinds of success you hope to achieve, the relationships you desire, the wisdom you seek to accumulate. Akunlegba are those things given to you to help you achieve these things. Both Akunleyan and Akunlegba can be modified or enhanced by symbolical sacrifice and ritual throughout our lives. Ayanmo is that part of our destiny which cannot be changed: our gender, race, sexuality etc. APARI INU , your character can never be changed unless bad habit is doped in favor of good habit.... therefore the ajogun and his symbolic war lords are necessary to appreciate and understand the concept of benevolent universe, instantiation of evil are the handwork of natural being.... imagine if there is no death, how will you appreciate birth, if there illness how will you appreciate good health, if there is no poverty, how will you appreciate wealth......it is all for the purpose of a balance society..... as good as rain might be, imagine a 365 days of a year non stopping rain without a stop, will farmers still called it good? All these opposite effect of mankind are necessary for a balance society as they are not necessarily anti olodumare.... as you put it... nothing like demons in Yoruba cosmology , it is fabrication to suit biblical or Islamic concept.

We will like to know the benevolent side of Iku (death). Thanks

vaxx:
I never said olodumare is anthropocentric, i said the center notion of man is anthropocentric. i will oblige you to read my comment again... deism understanding of GOD is simply his acknowledgement, with a position that he does not intervene with what he created but this is differ from Yoruba cosmology that posit that Olodumare is the (discern-er of hearts—‘he who sees the inside and the outside of man’.) He is active in celestial and terrestrial affairs, Olodumare is able to do all things; he is the enabler of all who achieve any ends. this is why praises and prayer are render to him by babalawo before anything is done, mo juba akoda , mo juba aseda(olodumare]though olodumare has no temples of worship nor does he have consecrated priests, But all ifa priests give offerings and give reverences to him. olodumare he conveys his will and order to the children consecrated to the orisha of Orunmila.

The question is does HE interfare directly with Mankind and the physical world? If yes, tell us how and if No, that approves he his deistic.

vaxx:
ALL animal apart from human are lower conscious being

Ifa holds that everything that exist has an Ori. And it is known that Ori in Yoruba is consciousness. Hence, everything, including animals and inanimate are conscious. Yoruba philosophy is centered on panpsychism

vaxx:
ALL force which you may term as evil and good were also created by him too, including death . At first men did not die. They grew to an immense size, after which they shrank into feeble old people. Because there were so many of them around, so men prayed to Olodumare , begging him to free them from long life, and in this way the old ones died." just to balance the system

What

Death is not evil? Sickness is not evil? Hunger and disease is not evil? Barrenness and lots are not evil? I have not heard or read about any generation that rejoice over sickness, death and epidemic diseases.

And the point you laid that people do not die is an unholy junk from Abrahamic religion. Death is an integral part of existence as it. While it is not the complete end, Yoruba people believe that it is a point of transition to Ajule Orun into the ancestors realm. Yoruba people have long believe that the physical realm is a market place and heaven is the home. How do we return home if not through death? And there is no verse in Ifa that postulate that at a point in the past, man does not die. So I do not really understand where you came about your submission that one does not die at first. Where is that from?

Oyeku meji speaks more on death. That corpus is termed the baba yeku yeku. I havent notice what you said in that Odu once. Maybe you can help with a verse. Thanks

FeelDeMusic:
I agree that everything has its own ase, or energy, similar to the concept of "chi" in Chinese spirituality. However, are you proposing that Esu is in fact, or at least has the capacity to be evil? Why is this?

Yes, it has capacity to be evil because he control the Ajoguns; and can be the best thing.

shadeyinka:
Excellent question!

There was a question by



Could we no refer to Ajoguns members as demons?

Ajogun are demons, malevolent agents.

vaxx:
Olodumare is not part of human decision, but not necessarily like deistic concept of GOD. he has created a fine environment for us to dwell and survive..... human his bless with her will, self awareness(consciousness) the ability that other creature lacks or has but not enough.... the word evil which denote wickedness, hatred etc is coined by human. for his or her own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position, the reality is if there is no human,the word evil will not exist... other creature like multitude of plant and animal are living just fine...yes olodumare is omnipotent, he sometime nickname in his oriki as alewilese,( he who speak and do).

Firstly, a deistism is a philosophical position that holds that God (in this case here Eledumare) does not interfare with the world. Thia posit that God is the source of everything and in a perfect condition but there is absenss of divine intervention. This is a fact because no one has ever engage Olódùmarè directly. There is no dedicated shrine or prophet that speaks with him.

Ori is the spark of consciousness and it is integral part of all the entities that exist in the physical world. Ori is not peculiar to only human and that mean that we are not the only conscious entity out there. Maybe what you mean by consciousness is sentience. But the Yoruba people hold that emi (life) and ori (consciousness) is present in every entity that exist. Emi in this case is not biological life but energy. Have you ever wondered there are aboku soro in Yoruba community? Do dead talks? This implies that what we assume dead is only biologically dead but still very much alive as a form of energy.

All the animals you can think about has their owm special Ashe. And this includes the trees and inanimate objects. Therefore, one cannot say that Eledumare is anthropocentric.

Ajoguns who are malevolent agents of Esu can cause one or whole community calamity. This is why Yoruba people appease Esu not to unleash his agent on them with this saying, Èṣù máse mi, ọmọ èlò mi ni ki o se

vaxx:
hello, i understand where you are conming from, but i will do my best to explain some details to you..... the universe is bounded on a balance system..... what you call evil is good to another man, the war that besiege a community that cause calamity has cause prosperous to another community, the famine that besiege a village that cause starvation is a blessing in disguise for another community, in evil, there exist good, and in in good there exist evil..... so every element of universe is base on balance system .... sacrifice given to the orisha which include Esu, eleye, shango and others are symbolical... No orisha eat ebo..... The real sacrifice is always about sacrificing your bad habits or "wants" in order to get the things you really need or to contribute your wealth to your community.

The animals that are sometimes associated with ebo are not the true sacrifice, but are symbolic. They serve a metaphoric purpose, ebo is not just the sacrifice of animals, food etc but of what the animals and this sacrifice object represent. For example, sacrificing a ram to Sango is symbolic of the qualities of the ram that we must embrace (such as perseverance).

therefore the real sacrifice to orisa is only taking place when you sacrifice practical things such as bad habits holding you back or feeding your community. Because it is easier to sacrifice foodstuffs, lazy people push the myth that it is the real sacrifice and not that actual spiritual work that you should be focusing your sacrifice on. so sacrifice given to esu or any orisha is not necessarily for him but for the person or community that offer it

Beside Ajogun do not act on its own, it is human being bad character that besiege ajogun ... it is not olodumare that create evil, evil emanate from human when he violate the concept of nature.... meaning it is human that hurt themselves ....so the evil cause of ajogun is as a result of the effect of human action

There are lot of mix-up here.

1. Human life according to the Yoruba traditional belief is predetermined in Ajule Orun.

2. Ajogun is an evil spirit that offers nothing other than lose and calamities. Ajoguns are the agent of Esu. And the only way to pull them away is through appeasing with Ebo.

3. Member of Ajogun is death, sickness, depression, loses and pain. You haven't explain how any of this emanated from human behaviour.

CuteMadridista:
Interesting, how do you absolve Olodumare from the responsibility of evil if the evil came from man's character? is it that he created us with that possibility of doing evil?

also what is ATR's views on freewill and is Olodumare also omniscient like the Abrahamic gods?

This question is not directed to me, but please permit me to address it.

Olodumare does not mostly interfare in the affair of humankind. What do we need him for when we have our Ori (personal deity) and Orisha as extention. Eledumare can be classified as Deistic God. There is nothing like Ojúbo Eleduare, except some Orisha shrine. Therefore, Eledumare can be exonerated from evil act.

Freewill is the basic foundation of ATS. It is peculiar before physical existence. Before birth, we freely choose our destiny (Orin/ipin) in the abode of Ajala. Whatever we tend to do in physical life is a mirror of our existence in spiritual realm (iponri).

Those who chose Ori rere will be prosperous while those who chose Ori buburu will become impoverish. But from what I learnt, Ori búburú has to do with bad behaviour. This is why Yoruba say, ti mo ba de ajule Orun, nibi a n gbe yan ori, rere ni ma yan (if I return to the spiritual world, in the place where Destiny can be chosen, I will pick the good one). This implies that the harmony of good and evil are what makes existence continual.

vaxx:
Olodumare has created a benevolent universe for everyone, it is our birthright to be happy, joyful and be successful. whatever that is evil today is the outcome of our character.....Man is the only evil entities to himself. no being is created evil...life is place on a balance system, you get what you request,

note...i am trying to put this in summary as possible, i do not want to overflow your thread with so much article, at least people should be able to read without getting tired.

I disagree.

The universe is bounded with two forces; positive and negative. This include man and every entities therein. While we can be good, we can also be bad, it depends on the angle you are looking at it. However, neither the good or bad must overlap each other. It is therefore a necessity to keep an Harmony to avoid chaos.

The chaos mentioned above is evil. One must give sacrifice to Esu or he unleash Ajogun on his prey. We also give sacrifice to Eshu to appease the Eleye. Ajogun have nothing to provide anyone except calamity, loses and death.

We actually cannot completely eliminate evil. It gives meaning to what we know as good.

darkchild64:
cutemadridsta permit me to ask vaxx a question which would determine if I would keep following this topic.

Mr vaxx pls is there any hell that people who didn't follow the Yoruba religion would go to like the one in christianity ?

There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality. And freedom is vital in ATS, veneration of Orisha is done at will

Bovas sells ₦143 in Ondo

@OP,what was his voice like?

I am very skeptical when it comes to African spiritual system. Maybe it is because I am born in a society where almost every turn or houses has at least one or two shrine. Somethings too personal had happened that made me give them benefit of doubt. Well, I cannot explain these occurrences or manifestation they put on display, I believe there are some knowledge that covers manipulation of natural forces.

However, I have met some 'working boys' in Ondo town. I have personally engaged them and they confessed that their shrine is 'stage', meaning everything in there is put on display to defraud unsuspecting victims. They have guys on the street who are their eye, ears and tongue. These guys know your problems and approaches you that they have a priest who can resolve it. The end of the game is to swindle you of your cash which those boys get payback for. One thing that frighten me is that these boys are in àwo fraternity. We call them babalawo abuja. So most times, I do not believe there is any magic or ritual or whatever. Many of these guys are in police custody, you can do your own investigation.

Despite all that has been mentioned above, there are mamy things I cannot explain which some priest do. I do not want to speak for atheists here but they can consult those babas through a referral like family or adult friends.

There are traditions, with a strong tie in every person and family. One can only get the real picture through proper consultation. Go out there, ask those Babas to give you 'stuff' for test, they will willingly give it out for free. Arguing on cyberspace will not yield any tangible result. Atheism or not, there are some mind blowing spiritual feats, real or not, has anyone experienced these form. Argument ia unnecessary, if anyone doubt, that person should go out and experience it before talking about it.

Yoruba philosophy has a distinct view on the concept of life, death and afterlife. To start with, the nature of life according to the Yoruba people transcend biological view. We believe that everything including the non living things are alive. Therefore, Yoruba do not essentially hold that life is all about breathing oxygen. But rather, life continually vibrates.

Death as we know is the end of life. This is half truth because what ends is the breathing process. Yoruba people believe that life does not end. It rather transcend to realm. There is a common saying that Ajo laye. Meaning the physical world is path through which we sojourn. Generally speaking, Yoruba people believe that a person kú (die), but ẹ̀mí re kọjá (life has transcended) or o tí relé (he has sojourn home). In the case of Ọba, Yoruba carefully don't use the word kú. They rather use the term waja which mean climb. There is no living being (life as in term of biology), what we have is Ọmọ-aráyé (the people of the physical world) while those dead are called Ara-ọrùn (people who dwell in the zenith).

Ọrun as we know is heaven. I do not personally like using the term heaven for Orun because Abrahamic theology has bastardize the original meaning of the word. Orun is the world beyond, zenith and the abode of ancestors and divinities. It is part of this planet, but in different dimension or realm. Yorùbá actually believe Orun is a home next door. Orun nile, bi a ba rin ajo, ile la n fi abo sì (heaven is abode, one who sojourn must surely return back home).

There is no concept of Hell in Yoruba spiritual system. The term Orun Àpáàdì or any term used by Christians and Muslims have no relation with Yoruba spirituality or philosophy. Yoruba people do not have the concept of sin or pinishment for sin in the afterlife. There is ẹsẹ or àṣemáṣe (illegality ot wrongdoings) which postulate on a given law in a society. However, one can only be punished for the wrongdoing on physical world in the physical world. Ase gbe kan ó sì, ase pamọ lọ wà this is our own Karma philosophy. But the effect of our actions will manifest only when we are here on earth.

Just like concept of life and death, Yoruba people hold a distinct view on reincarnation. Reincarnation is the return of a person who are long dead back into the physical world. Yoruba hold a different view called A sẹhin wáyé. Aseinwaye can simply be termed as rebith of consciousness. It connotes that life and death is an unending circle that turns through different realms or dimension. A dead person still lives. Not as a biological but metphysical sense. Yoruba people hold that dead people live on in their realm. And they also believe that after one die, one join the ancestors and later returns back to the world to continue their sojourn until Ìwà pẹ̀lẹ́ is achieved. Here is the quote of common saying during burial ceremony of a Yoruba person.

Bi o ba dele ki o kile (greet them when you get home)
Bi o ba dona ki o soyaya (Merry on on yoit sojourn path)
Bi o dorun o sorun re (make good the ancestors realm)
Ma jokun ma jekolo (do not eat earthworms or centipede)
Ohun ti nwon je lajule orun ni kí o maa je. (feast on whatever they eat in the ancestors world).

There is a chicken called Adie Irana. It is used to part ways for the dead person that sojourn to heaven.

There is also a song among the Yorubas.

Tete de o o (return quickly)
Jowo tete wa ya, baba (please branch here baba)
Bi o ba nlo o,jowo tete wa ya (when you sojourn through this path, do branch).

These sayings, songs and thought points that Yoruba people hold a strong believe in the cycle of life. And that life is essentially not breathing but vibration. All in all, there is no hell in Yoruba spirituality

temptnow:
well, the last time I checked I didn't qoute or mentioned you at the first place

Abeg carry your sadness comot for here. It is not our fault that Southeastern Government failed you

South Western Nigeria leads, others follow. Now we know the so called Slave and Parasites

2cato:
rats in aso rock get out off my mention

Life of a rat in aso rock is better than yours. Your father and generation away have not enter the gate of the villa once. And with the way you live your life, you can never get close to it

badboywizzy:
OP You no see as people dey look your thread dey commot eyes. Sentimentally criticising a governor they just awarded silverbird man of the year A.K.A mr projects.


Wike and Fayose single handedly held pdp at their right hand even when prostitutes were busy decamping

Rivers people love him, Nigerians owe him thanks, if not, we wouldn't be having the opposition we are having now.

Who owns Silverbird? Ben Bruce, a member of PDP which Wike and his cult gang lord over. The best Governor award is a padi-padi thing. No one take it serious except Zombies like you

2cato:
your fulani lord and masters are using your people for making suya and you see nothing wrong with it
they even dare to spray pepper and hot water combine with hot big bullet on them fore dare to protest and you never see any thing wrong with it
if you think the problem of nigeria is due to bad followers like omenkaLives blamming CAN for defending and speaking out for the Christians who have no voice click like
if you think the problem of nigeria is due to bad leaders click share













It is well with Nigeria

Address the topic and stop bleating like a goat

tigerclaws:
[s][/s]
shatap there and get out
you're disgracing yourself
firefire is 10000% better than you atleast he's more wiser than you and your so called education that put all your trust in an old illiterate terrorist donkey
He's better than you because he opposed the terror that fulani herdsmen unleashed against his people and mr Olu falae but what of you? you'll rather criticize those speaking up for your people why? because you're benefiting from this useless government hence you prefer the benefits to the innocent blood of your people
or maybe because you'll be seen as an enemy of buhari if you dare speak up against fulani herdsmen his tribesmen.
omenka it's very shameful of you
nobody takes you serious anymore
so you see firefire is far better than you
your education is useless ig you cannot use it to help your people
Stop adding to their sorrows
repent dude
grow up

How does this garbage counter Omenka's post?

stellx:
Rail transport is supposed to be cheap

That why it's the cheapest and largest mode of transportion world over except in Nigeria where " ailments defy their certified medicines"

Sometimes, I often wonder if this government is on an assignment to impoverish the masses by rendering our pitiable wages useless.

For the fact that you took a hungry blogger this serious. And you reel out hate over an unconfirmed news, it shows that entire life is engulfed with bitterness. It sicken you had to start your new year with acute bitterness.

Have yoy traveled using a train before?

APC and Fayose should be banished from South west. They can have him in the south east

stellx:
Nigcomsat 1R has not performed to its maximum installed capacity we want to mortgage our children destiny to a debt that only tickles our insatiable greed.

But for a few, how many of us have our FTA decoders locked on our satellite on 42.5 degrees east?

Where did you find debt in the OP? Are you guys hallucinating?

biacan:
Another massive looting loading

Did you read the OP at all

How much is it going?

Lomprico2:
Foly so u are a zombie? I used to be a fan

He mean it figuratively!

We can not agree all the time. Differences aside, it is one human, one nation, and one people.

Much respect

Oye0404:
Did u read or heard his campaign promises, he was so sure he would turn Nigeria to heaven in less Dan a year.

Can you provide us evidence of where he said he will turn Nigerian to heaven in less than a year?

You guys reel out garbage

2cato:
When buhari was making promise opon promise was the op sleeping
I can see that buhari and his bmc are the dumbest of all humans.

Buhari has been working and is working on his promises. I mean the one he made by himself and not one you concorted from your blocked head.

Buhari personally made three promises. He promised to work on Revamping the Economy, Fighting corruption and Improving security. These are the three promises he made and he is on track