₦airaland Forum

johnydon22:
I do believe we are talking about two entirely different things then because basis is not referring to people who hold the ideas but rather the underlying foundation for an idea in the case of morality is the belief in the assumption of value.

And again, individuals conceiving moral points do not make these moral points valid, the validation of a moral position comes from collection of intertwined beliefs.

It does bro... Because it determines what moral position will be validated when they all come together.

I love my brain. Its sad most religious folks (not all) hate theirs and think it's useless.


Meanwhile... amen

Eyaaa

johnydon22:
Have i argued that God decides morality? Morality is derived through a basic derivative method and the beginning of this method is the assumption of value and this is the argument; the basis of morality. You are probably reading the back of your phone to come up with this non-sequitur above.

Assumption of values by who? It starts with individuals and this to me it the basis of morality.

Whatever happens collectively is only secondary. We cannot overlook the individual mindsets where the ideas originated from.

johnydon22:
An imagined order doesn't become effective until it is held as a fundamental framework for the majority within the clime.

Nigeria for example doesn't objectively exist, it exists because we believe it does.

Value in money doesn't exist objectively, it is valuable only because we believe it is.

If Frank wakes up tomorrow and insist Nigerian naira is worth nothing, this is Frank's subjective belief, it doesn't really change or affect anything unless the whole of Nigeria adopts this belief in which case it becomes intersubjective.

This is how imagined orders work.

You seem to want to just stick with what you think is the basis for morality without considering that what most atheist are saying it the looking at it from the scratch.

Frank might wake up tomorrow and starts to propagate the idea that killing is moral. This is his subjective belief. but what if he has a good arguement as to why killing is good and he starts to convince people around him until many people buys his idea and start to advocate that Killing is good. if majority eventually accept this... killing becomes moral. This does not stop some people from seeing killing s immoral... to them killing will remain immoral and you cannot change that.

this is why i have been arguing with you that humans decides what is moral thats why its subjective. its start with individuals ad his argument can make others see the benefit of such idea and also inturn start to see the idea as moral.

johnydon22:
The effective moral belief must be pravelent, the thoughts of a minority do not affect an intersubjective imagined order (It is not up to lone individual convictions)

I'm pretty sure in Nigeria today, they are people who lack a belief in Nigeria but rather believes in Biafra or some that believe in the idea of Odua. Does this validate this belief? Not at all. Does it invalidate Nigeria? Nope.

But once we all agree either by coercion or volition that these entities exist independently, they do so.

Reaching a moral conclusions without first outlining a derivative basis is in fact puerile like a theist saying 'God did it' without outlying how that conclusion is reached

No actually, there wasn't any basis.

Postulation; killing is wrong.

Question; Killing an ant or a human

Answer: Human.

Question: why?

Answer: because it deprives people of what's theirs

Question; why is depriving people of their thing wrong?

Answer; would you like to be killed? Tell me your address

Question; Whether i like it or not isn't a moral weight. Again i ask, why is depriving people their thing wrong?

Answer; just tell me where you live.

See? This is pretty much how the whole thing is going. The postulation is a moral conclusion and he still tries to give weight to this moral conclusion using another moral conclusion. Lol.

Moral basis isn't another action, it is a fundamental belief on the subject not an action.

Men!!! This is tiring

Oga, humans, weather majority or minority decide what is moral or not based on (collective)interest and how affects them. it starts from each individual thinking alike and going ahead to propagate it as moral.

you are busy screaming jeez! and WTF!, why is this simple analogy difficult for u to grab?

johnydon22:
Of course i am, sometimes it is frustrating spoon feeding people things you'd expect they know.

And i know my arguments have become more intricate than they use to be, they no longer echo your beliefs intoto they in fact make you question them and think harder, i understand the discomfort

these days, u seem to want to complicate simple issues

johnydon22:
Again whether i like to be killed or not is not a pointer to the morality of killing. WTF!

it starts from there bro, before it becomes a collective decision... something u chose to call intersubjective morality.

johnydon22:
An explanation will be in order even though i have explained this over and over before.

Ok here goes, a snappy one: Morality is an imagined order, imagined orders are not personal beliefs, it is a collection of beliefs in a principle.

Any imagined order only makes sense and is effective as an intersubjective principle. E.g: money.

The value of money is as a result of a collective belief by everyone.

Once everyone loses this belief, the concept becomes useless.

If everyone in Nigeria agrees today that the states in the Eastern part of the country will now be known as Biafra, it automatically becomes Biafra. The land or the people didn't change, only the belief did.

Imagined orders aren't personal as they are concepts that transpire between a collective whole.

Nnamdi Kanu saying, he is a Biafran doesn't make it so. He may believe it but it is not effective, it doesn't make SE Biafra.

Mr A saying, i don't believe in money, doesn't make money any less valuable - the only thing that would is everyone who believes in this value to lose this belief.

Likewise, one person saying, I don't believe stealing is wrong affect the moral weight of that action since morality refers to interactive actions.

If only one man lived on earth, they won't be a "killing is wrong"

It takes an intersubjective belief in this principle by a given clime.

So there are three natures of morality in ethics;

1. Objective morality - Morality as an inherent part of the universe, a transcendent quality. This is the most meaningful conceptualization since it is non-arbitrary by definition - alas, only as a philosophical position since it doesn't work like that in a practical sense

2. Intersubjective - as explained above

3. Subjective which by definition is meaningless since it eliminates the interactive considerations of a moral action.

But then, basis in morality refers to fundamental derivative beliefs we use to insill moral values.

E.g: Killing is wrong.

Mr A killed an ant
Mr B killed a human?

Who do we abhor? Mr B of course, why? Aren't both guilty of killing?

This implies that the nature of being right or wrong isn't necessarily in the action. The weight of right or wrong comes with our fundamental assumption on the subject.

So, for us to think killing a human is a graver abhorrence to killing say an ant, means our value belief of both subjects aren't on par.

So when i ask for moral basis, it is not to say i do not agree with your reasons for a moral judgement, it is because a conclusion without basis makes an assumption that moral quality is an intrinsic part of an action which is demonstrably not so.

And you forget that intersubjective believe starts with one person?

budaatum:
Morality is in the eye of the beholder unless you want to impose some heavenly godly morals on everyone. Most have abandoned that idea so they impose laws instead to guide morals. But even laws have their limitations so the wiser add education to it too to guide your morals, and prison if you break the law.

Can I ask you questions? Why are you so uncivil? Why do you think your opinion is any more less puerile to anyone else's? Are you well in the head? I'm just wondering johnydon22 because I can't quite recall you being this way except of very recent!

I think he is losing it

johnydon22:
Actually, it isn't.

It is sir.

Lmao. There are Christians in both Nigeria and Uk that believe a homosexual is going to hell. Innit?

So? Should we pretend there are no Christians in Both Nigeria and UK that think homosexuals are not going to hell? If so, doesn't that describe morality the way Buda did?

Oh i think your arguments on morality is peurile alright.

Why?

I have not even made 1 moral claim. I have only been asking how you reach a moral conclusion of which you seem unable to say.

Isn't that funny?

Again i ask, why is killing wrong?

I think he has explained why killing is wrong (to him), you just don't agree, which of course u also have the right not to.

budaatum:
Unfortunately, morality is precisely like that. Homosexuality is one to note. If you're gay in Nigeria you are going to hell while UK has a Gay Parade and neither can give a reason the other will accept.

But hey! If you think we are so puerile and funny and worthy of your condescension you are very welcome to educate us with your view and raise our morals to your lofty level please.

Thumbs up Buda. Nicely put

johnydon22:
I do think that it is self explanatory. But let me try again; A creator can do whatever it pleases with its creations. The same moral constraints do not apply for the created and the creator.

Agreed

johnydon22:
And what is wrong in killing humans?

Would u love to be killed?

@op... I go with Hardmirror and Lordreed's view on the topic

jesusjnr2:
I am so honored to be called a mumu by you, in fact i'm a very big one at that, for that's a googolplex times much better than being a Satan zombie like you.

Lol... Glad u like being called mumu. Everyone knows already. I would have been glad to be called Satan zombie, unfortunately he exists only in ur head. Give me his contact I might apply directly.

jesusjnr2:
Na wah oh! Fear, fear.

Thought He doesn't exist!

So how can God who according to you doesn't exist yet be Competing with the atheists, even when the atheists have not been able surmount the dust matter of jesusjnr yet?

My perfectly permanent God can not reduce himself to the level of nairaland atheists when He already has jesusjnr, a dust version of Himself here dealing seriously with them or whatever they could muster.

#thezombisticreasoningofasatanzombie

Mumu... So how can a God who exists (according to u) be competing with humans?

jesusjnr:
Perhaps signs of someone already on his way out of Satan zombism?

Atheism legs seriously shaking in Nairaland, glory be to God!

Your God is competing with atheists?

U can have him for all I care. But one thing I know is; when reasoning starts to fall short, Christianity sets in.

johnydon22:
Gee, i wonder why? Hmmm let me think, eeeeehm to see what others think? Could that be it? Uuuuhm ok, let me think some more, i will be right back

sigh

Hermes019:
If this is what you truly believe than why did u create that thread on clones ?

i think he is a bit confused of late... or his account has been hacked

Church is actually a lucrative business here in Nigeria. Do u have American accent? That would b an added advantage for you. Sometimes I wish I have the courage to deceive people.

I hope ur God is happy now

jesusjnr:
Whatever it is, it's better than being a waste of His breath!

I liken your God to a pot, he has no breath to give neither has he any to take

jesusjnr2:
Ok i'm speaking with a waste of God's breath, so I shouldn't expect him to able to comprehend any further than his ignorance and foolishness.

Because your waste of God's breath does not let you know that, a pot that is giving the same breath that you have wouldn't be any different from you.

Or do you want the Creator whose breath you're wasting, to take away His breath from you with which you're using to rebel against him, so that you see how different you are from the pot?

Such a waste of God's breath up till now, maybe will be a waste of God's breath till the God's breath gets taken away from him.

U just sound as foolish as ur God sha. Making no sense at all.
So since he went into hiding and left u to make things up about him, what have u gained. Why waste ur time on a non existent entity.
Ur God has not strength to take my breath away, he cannot even try it, hin no de fear? I think ur God is a pot.

jesusjnr2:
A pot is even much better than you, as it hasn't been proven itself to a waste of the breath of life as you have proven thus far.

Dust and ashes you with a waste of a brain.

Pot, prove itself? Tomorrow u will say u are not insane.

U are even interacting with me at least and u are saying a pot, which u have never spoken with, something used by me to cook is better than me. I am only sorry for ur brain sha. U might think u are insulting me but ur are only telling the world how shallow u reason.

So tell me, will ur foolish God put me in hell and put a pot in heaven?

budaatum:
Funny! When last did you make a pot and have it complain? Is a pot the same as a human being?

People question God (they don't really, and just question, period) because they seek understanding. And God does answer those questions, at least going by the numerous times God was questioned in Scripture and answered. And the fact that even I can say, "what the fuq, God? and not get turned into stone is evidence one can. Besides, is it not by questioning God that one seeks God and gains understanding and all else that follows? I guess I'm not a lemming and want answers.

How did they even come about comparing humans with pot? So much lack of intelligence in that.

Christians and confusion are Like 5 & 6.

You ask why God gave us freewill, they ask why if you would prefer God created u as a robot.

You use ur free will to questions some inconsistencies relating to God, they will want u to act like a robot by comparing u to an inanimate object like a pot (not even a robot) thereby indirectly telling u the freewill God gave u shouldn't be used.

Gosh

sherylbakky:
She said shes having lustful desire, frm my own view, d cause cud av bn as a result of not bn sexually satisfied...or wot cud av caused a "married woman" to b having lustful desire?


Ohhh! u expect me to ask her to start praying abt what she suppose to work on because she brings dis to religion section ryt? or u expect me to tell her to go to her husband n explain to him dat shes aving lustful desire?

U are entitled to ur opinion just like i'm entitled to mine, u ar free to drop ur suggestion, for dat wud be beta instead of trying to fight another person on NL.

The truth is dat, the Op is not even opening up ...I wudnt av even advised her if i went tru her profile n posts at first.

Check her posts n see...But u av to note dat dis is a forum n every1 is entitle to his or her opinion, n next time, if u don't av any good cause to mention others, u are free to just PASS.

U are all over the place shouting entitled to opinion upandan, and anyone reading will think I stuffed it mouth with cloth not to talk.

The op said she was having lustful desires and even told u her sex life with her husband is OK. Yet u are advising her on the style to use.

And what do u even mean by talk to her husband about it?

Mr opinion entitlement.... Don't worry about me, just rant on

chiipink:
No

Then kindly keep off from given marital advise. Sometimes its good to learn quietly from the corner.

Jumping into matters u don't understand will only make u come off as ignorant and an attention seeking wanna be.

Thanks

sherylbakky:
I understand at coloured, but c'mon madam, we are talking abt ur husband here, the father of ur children, the person u wud b spending the rest of ur life wit...U need to open up to him, I'm sure he's gonna understand

OK, u tell him- honey I think we need to be more stylish about s*x, y not let's avoid the bed n try some other places in our apartment today? tell him this jokingly next time u guys are trying to "check in"... He's gonna understand , OK?

U only need to explore, that's it, dont think its a spiritual tin...do dis n tnk me later.

What kind of advise is this? Are u asking her to open up about her lustful thoughts or about their sex styles?
Did she complain about her sex style with her husband?

Na wa

chiipink:
I can neva have that thought.. as a married woman... never!!
That's why Its good to marry some1 u love genuinely and not for his wealth, beauty or whatever .

Are u married?

IAmSabrina:
Gosh. Ihedinobi & Zither, get a room you two ....

Lol... They talk too much nonsense

Afonjas:
The way many/most celebrities rushed to help this girl, if they start helping/sponsoring young scientists like this, Nigeria will be great in near future.

Las las they will sponsor her education and turn her to actress.

I understand u, but life does not work like that... U must stand out to be noticed. U can't be among the crowd and expect to be noticed. Think

And that's how this God wastes time on irrelevant things.

While he was busy drawing tatoo on this kids body, a plane was crashing and a building filled with kids was falling.

Your Gos should get a job