₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
The bold ends this discussion.

@FreeIgboho - see.

Oh the discussion ended before that, just that my brother Christian, Gabrielshow24, refuses to be intellectually honest. Simply put, between external constraints you never chose and internal constraints within the brain that you also never chose, there's simply no space for freewill

Gabrielshow24:
🤔Put right by who? 🤨

Such misleading remarks are uncalled for. Probably, from your non-existent freewilled mind. As far as it stands, not you, not Deepsight have been able to show, be it logically, mathematically that the subset of choices you have are not your own! This alone warrants a revisitation to your mindsets!

You keep jumping from pillar to post in this futile

"Put right by who?". What do you call this below, after which you went quiet?

Gabrielshow24:
Circles should be your moniker. This doesn't negate the free will of the actor or his agency of choice when he is born. That's God's omniscience in action!

Poor Gabriel still has freewill in the brain. My brother we've moved beyond that as no one has been able to help us. You tried with "agency of choice" but was promptly put right and have since kept quiet.
We'er now discussing why an omniscient God was NOT omniscient when it came to Paul (at least according to Boomark!)

Image123:
What thread is this post of yours located?

This my thread. Search above

Boomark:
He knew he would be caught if he stays against his warning. He will not be caught if he obeyed his words.

Any other thing outside this is your own man-made reasoning. I prefer to use scripture to explain things.

Didn't know God's omniscience is dependent on "IF"

Anyway you and Image123 were not included in the group post below. No one has been able to help us so far.
Maybe you can try

Folks, please forgive us but we have a serious problem that we hope you can help us resolve. Please observe the scenario below. No matter how we configure it we arrive at the same conclusion: there is no such thing as freewill. This has led us to helplessness, hopelessness, and depression. Please is there ANY WAY we can configure this so there's space for freewill. (Please disregard for now the assumption that God already knows everything you'll ever do - that's story for another day)

Here's the scenario:

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain, personality, circumstances of birth, experiences, etc. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no real power to override them. And even if he could, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long - his thoughts, intentions, and feelings appear from processes within his brain that he's not even aware of talkless of controlling.
Please can you find us space for freewill in all this OR can you please tell us where freewill can come from? Feel free to use AI.
Thanks

Boomark:
He knew he would be caught if he stays against his warning. He will not be caught if he obeyed his words.

Any other thing outside this is your own man-made reasoning. I prefer to use scripture to explain things.

And here I was, thinking God was omniscient. So much for that.
Even a fortune teller knows better than God. Who woulda thought.

How, though, do you reconcile with this biblical below

Arostar2023:
People that depend on "miracles" and lucks seldom go far in life. Great nations and institutions are not built by luck, but by deliberate and consistent excellent acts and the resulting good results. Our girls have worked hard and got a win. They deserved to be celebrated...but having to consistently expect a miracle is no hardwork. Brazilians of old, for example , didn't win games by luck, but by hardwork and excellence.

Everything is luck

Gabrielshow24:
🤦🏾‍♂️This question is just borderline reaching! Whether or not I have been given the "brain", "circumstances" and "experiences" of a criminal doesn't the change the fact that such come from my internal being. It's his choice to be swayed by his circumstances to be a criminal, some in that situation won't do such! That's agency of choice. All your speculations have in no way nullified his agency of choice!

But agency of choice is not based on nothing. You don't choose based on nothing. You choose based on thoughts and those thoughts originate in processes in the brain you're not aware of and based in past occurrences you never chose, beginning all the way from birth!

Gabrielshow24:
Group posting above? that's vague. Do you mean to include Deepsight in this? 🤨

Even at that, bandwagon fallacy doesn't affirm the truth. Also, what "no free will" situation?
All your arguments doesn't negate free will, it emphasizes a coexistence of dynamic and static objects, objective and subjective perceptions etc Which is the recurring theme in the universe!

Please tell me EXACTLY where freewill will come from. I really hate tending towards nihilism.
In order words if you've been given the same exact brain, circumstances, and experiences as a criminal where will the freewill for you not to be a criminal come from?

sonmvayina:
All your premise are wrong . We need to address that first.

Please go ahead. I really hate tending towards nihilism

jlo247:
Looking at sabinus self dey make u laugh already

SABINUS!!!!!
SABINUS!!!!!
SABINUS!!!!!
SABINUS!!!!!
But where is NEDU??!!!!!!!!
Where is NEDU??!!!

Gabrielshow24:
What cogent reasoning? 👀 Who and who made such "reasonings"? 🤨

You should have known that such statement will not escape my scrutiny!🧐

Ser the group posting above. Politely show us a way out of the "no freewill" situation

Gabrielshow24:
🤦🏾‍♂️ The take home was that he made the choice! How's that hard to understand 🤕?

What choice? When a street palm reader can categorically tell him he's UNAVOIDABLY in trouble

Folks, please forgive us but we have a serious problem that we hope you can help us resolve. Please observe the scenario below. No matter how we configure it we arrive at the same conclusion: there is no such thing as freewill. This has led us to helplessness, hopelessness, and depression. Please is there ANY WAY we can configure this so there's space for freewill. (Please disregard for now the assumption that God already knows everything you'll ever do - that's story for another day)

Here's the scenario:

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain, personality, circumstances of birth, experiences, etc. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no real power to override them. And even if he could, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long - his thoughts, intentions, and feelings appear from processes within his brain that he's not even aware of talkless of controlling.
Please can you find us space for freewill in all this OR can you please tell us where freewill can come from? Feel free to use AI.
Thanks.



MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
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Boomark:
No

Acts 22:17-19 NIV
[17] “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance [18] and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’ [19] “ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.

Paul was warned but he didn't listen and was caught. In verses 21:4 he was warned. Are you saying the warnings were useless since God has already planned that he should be caught?

In your honest opinion you reallly think almighty God did not know he'd be caught?? Even a common fortune teller will tell him: "I see you in trouble"

Gabrielshow24:
My God, why are you this befuddled? Scientists have dropped such mindsets about the brain into ... —can't exactly use the term I want because of the constraints 😅of a fellow, you can substitute any befitting term based on the context!

The new scientific model sees the brain as a pattern matching automated system, it's the basis for A.I.—I need not say much your analogy is insufficient as A.I. agents have intrinsic factors of internalization that produce a response!

Your brain is not a pseudo programmed computer as you claimed it to be. This is very far fetched!

Forget scientific models, AI and all that. You have your own common sense. Use it!
I think I'll see if anyone else can help, because, frankly, it is NOT right that freewill doesn't exist, but that's where all cogent reasonings lead!

Gabrielshow24:
Of course, God is aware but prayer is the way appointed unto men. How this helps your cause is rather baffling? 🤔

What do you hope to achieve from this to diminish free will? 😅 estrictamente, this doesn't help your argument!

We'er just having an intellectual discussion. We have involuntarily established that free will does not exist. And you're right, it doesn't help our cause at all, but facts are facts.
You were asked why God knowingly let something happen and you say prayers are appointed to men. Does that make sense to you?

Gabrielshow24:
It seems you are putting your entire thesis on a gnat. It's vapid and doesn't avail you much!
The subject matter wasn't about prayer, even though we have tackled such before👀, it's about free will!

I used the illustration that perhaps he didn't take the necessary steps to avoid it or he embraced it, I accounted for both instances be it from God or from the other side. Still, I believe given the context of the image that his life was taken from him by the other side!—I stand to be corrected as I am speaking from insufficient divine information likewise yourself.

From this sentiment of mine, you decided to make it your pokrovsk👀. it's a specific probabilistic solution aimed to exemplify a problem, it's not an absolute solution. There are lots of variables, I gave hints suggesting the lack of information present! How do we know if he was in Christ at that moment? How do we know whether he prayed as regards it after this vigil? Or was his prayer tenable to avail him? I don't have time for what ifs! If you hoped to base your new submissions on this, then it's flawed.

As regards Jesus, we saw he aligned himself to God's divine will. Also, it seems rather appalling that when I brought Jesus as an evidence you didn't give a definite answer.The remaining questions should have been answered in your Sunday school—why God allows the existence of evil?

Why DOES God allow evil? (Since you know 4 sure!)
The question you were asked was: wasn't God aware his servant was in danger, so why must there be all those multitude of prayers?

Gabrielshow24:
It seems you are putting your entire thesis on a gnat. It's vapid and doesn't avail you much!
The subject matter wasn't about prayer, even though we have tackled such before👀, it's about free will!

I used the illustration that perhaps he didn't take the necessary steps to avoid it or he embraced it, I accounted for both instances be it from God or from the other side. Still, I believe given the context of the image that his life was taken from him by the other side!—I stand to be corrected as I am speaking from insufficient divine information likewise yourself.

From this sentiment of mine, you decided to make it your pokrovsk👀. it's a specific probabilistic solution aimed to exemplify a problem, it's not an absolute solution. There are lots of variables, I gave hints suggesting the lack of information present! How do we know if he was in Christ at that moment? How do we know whether he prayed as regards it after this vigil? Or was his prayer tenable to avail him? I don't have time for what ifs! If you hoped to base your new submissions on this, then it's flawed.

As regards Jesus, we saw he aligned himself to God's divine will. Also, it seems rather appalling that when I brought Jesus as an evidence you didn't give a definite answer.The remaining questions should have been answered in your Sunday school—why God allows the existence of evil?

Why DOES God allow evil, since you know 4 sure!
The question you were asked was: wasn't God aware his servant was in danger, so why must there be all those multitude of prayers?

Gabrielshow24:
what aspect of emanant don't you understand? I have summarized mine also.

😅No response. The truth is the truth no matter how inconvenient!
It's like saying a computer has some mysterious "freewill" that will allow it to NOT do what it's programmed to do!

Gabrielshow24:
You keep going back in circles. I have discussed these as physical constraints. Probably, you have been gleaning over my posts with less thought.

Irrespective of these so called physical constraints which can't be changed everything else is based on your emanant volition!—I thought I told you to ask an LLM to generate a venn diagram for you👀... Well, it's good.

You keep going back to this formicant heartbeat of your argument! So far... Let me do a recap🤔. We have argued about "freewill" , both from the perspective of man and the divine, "prayer" and other expostulations of yours. Now we are back to man's perspective, once more 🤕.

Let me state this clearly, anything apart from constraints is based on your volition! As simple as that. It's a coexisting system. You don't have much handle on these complex systems—as at now👀! While it can influence yours👀!

Please, you were asked a simple question my good brother, even discounting the fact God already knows everything you'll ever do, WHERE exactly is the space for freewill?
See how I simply and briefly explained mine? Do same in telling us exactly where freewill fits in, exactly where it'll come from

Gabrielshow24:
It's part of what plan👀, why the misinformation 🤧? How does whatsoever you wrote up there tally with my submissions?

God knowing all the possible outcomes doesn't necessarily mean that those outcomes are his will! —This is something a Christian like you should have understood 👀 not this censure you call a remark!

Let me give you this final analogy, see the world as a two sided cone with one side open! The open side serves for God's will, while the other side encapsulates us all. Decision can come from both sides, but God won't infringe on your free will, this makes our actions our own, only when God decides to do something that he influences whatsoever he needs to! How then did you know that God did this?😂 the fact he was warned is evidence to the contrary!

It's insufficient evidence to disprove free will! I don't need deepsight's approbation of your perspective! My previous remonstrations are sufficient to prove otherwise. Or shall we say because Alan Turing knew the direction the world was inclining to negated free will? That's absurd! An intelligent mind can know these things talk less of an omniscient God, He is aware of all choices and outcomes but you will choose them by yourself!

Be it in a year's time, or millions of years into the future! You will decide your outcome! 👀

I see I have wasted my time. So after all I've explained you're still talking of free will.
Ok, I'll give you the full picture. Please tell me exactly where there is space for freewill.

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain and personality. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no power to override them. And even if he did, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long.
Please show us the space for freewill in all this

Boomark:
You can take the challenge, let's see if the bible actually connect the Father, Son, and Holy spirit in a unity way. Don't be afraid or you can nominate someone.

I'm NOT sure you read the OP of this thread. Though a great book, the Bible is still just words in a book. Words handled and mishandled by many, many men for a long time. Jesus is alive and active in people's lives. Just as Rome couldn't stamp out Christianity, just as Arianism died out, if God were not behind Trinity it would not have survived and thrived this long, as it is something that's affects God PERSONALLY!



Here's part of the OP:

Before you dispute any of these remember:

1) You don't have the foggiest idea what God is like, nor can you imagine what he is like.

2) You don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are. So forget all the attributes you have in your head - they were assigned by man. You simply don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are or are not. So forget all attributes you assign to God!

3) If God is explained to you as straight forward and quite uncomplicated, you can be sure they are giving u man's version of God, NOT God as he is.

4) God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.

5) So how do you know God? The ONLY way is the way it happened with Jesus. ANYONE that all those things happened with is God the Son of God. You can't know him any other way. You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY!!

Gabrielshow24:
Now, I don't want to talk about whether or not he sufficiently prayed inorder to have averted it but one thing I do know, if it comes from the other side👀, it's only God that can change it. Since it wasn't changed, it showed efforts were less or his mind was made up either way!👀

Do you think Jesus insufficiently prayed to avert the cross? Do you think any amount of prayers could have averted it? How can something come from "the other side" and yet almighty God allows it on his own. Are you saying God was not aware of it until prayers? What exactly are prayers meant to do?

Gabrielshow24:
I do know some medical problems that are not solved by one dose of a drug! There goes your analogy!

Whether he was just coming back from crusade or not doesn't mean the problem was tackled. it's God that should be the judge of the that! You assuming that is rather faulty👀. I am a living testimony of evil words that God averted! In my case, I was so lackadaisical but God's mercy saved me!

Now, I don't want to talk about whether or not he sufficiently prayed inorder to have averted it but one thing I do know, if it comes from the other side👀, it's only God that can change it. Since it wasn't changed, it showed efforts were less or his mind was made up either way!👀

Brother, it's not an objective evidence to disprove the existence of free will.

If you REALLY THINK about all this It is amazing how simplistic we are!
Soo God knew before the foundation of the world he'd have this accident, it's part of his plan. Same God gave him his personality, circumstances, and brain. So because of some innocuous thing he did yesterday (which, BTW, God already knew he was going to do) all that will be thrown out. We are really soo DUMB!!

DeepSight:
Oga, if someone knows exactly what you will do in 10, 000 years time, you had no choice.

For crysake! The amazing thing is that they think if it were to be changed it is NOT because God intended it to be changed from the beginning, but because of some innocuous thing the did yesterday (which, BTW, God already knew they were going to do!)

Boomark:
Matthew 7:22-23 HCSB
[22] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? ’ [23] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

From my experience and things done to me personally, I have seen law breakers. Those who preach, conduct services but still pervert justice. Still deceive people and more. But whenever you see them preaching you will feel they are too great in the spirit.

Here on nairaland, I see liars who twist the word of God to suit their man-made doctrine but are still preaching. At times I wonder if they really know that those who lie to defend a church or doctrine are not doing it for God.

The will of God is greater than all these things. I don't know what happened to him but I know some of them still practice wickedness even as preachers.


You can take the challenge, let's see if the bible actually connect the Father, Son, and Holy spirit in a unity way. Don't be afraid or you can nominate someone.

Ok, let's unpack this the way it actually is. God knew or has this as part of his plan before the foundation of the world. Same God gave him his personality, circumstances, and brain. You really think if this were canceled it's NOT because God intended it to be canceled from the beginning of time?
It's amazing how simplistic we are!

Gabrielshow24:
God apparently gave him heads up about the circumstances planned for him by the other side👀. It doesn't negate his free will...my bad, It didn't negate his free will. It just showed he didn't handle the situation well! If the situation was from God then that's the way God intended for him to go but the context impugns this!

Thus, he had months to seek the Lord's face and change his fate—obviously planned for him by the people of darknesse👀! Such pronouncement against institutional terrestrial powers needs God's backing. You can't be a banal person and in Elijah-esque style go and challenge Jezebel 🤧—Wisdom doesn't dictate such!

Still, we rejoice that he was found in the Lord, all things being equal👀!

What's wrong with people??! The man was returning from a crusade where they prayed all night against those exact evil forces. What else do you want him to do??! Theoretically he could have avoided it if he had gone to a party or simply stayed home!

Only block theory perfectly explains this. just as our eyes see automatically, and our hearts beat automatically, it seems to me all of life could be just as automaric - but has a built-in illusion that has us thinking we're the ones causing things to happen!

As for freewill, think of all the freewills that have to perfectly align for a single prophesied occurrence to happen! Just a single freewill doing from any of the characters could derail the whole prophecy!

How does this amount to "VDM exposed"??
More like he's the one exposing!

Yeah? How about all these inheritance "kingdoms"
and obaships in Nigeria?

Boomark:
If he has been warned and told to pray, then he has a solution given to him. No one knew if he actually prayed or that everything ended with what he wrote in the post.

Even as we are preaching Christ, let all know that we all serve the Father who is the only true God. Christ is more interested in those who do the will of God. The will of God came from the things he told us about God.

You don't think that his returning from a crusade amounted to prayer? Different if he were returning from a whoré house.
I think it rather illustrates "what will be will be".

As for the Father being the only... the Bible ACTUALLY connects the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a unified way, indicating their distinct yet inseparable relationship.

Boomark:
Pick the challenge and expose my lack of knowledge.

Let's know those who type long empty words.

If you didn't borrow your trinity from occultic book but can show that it is from the bible. I will support you and you get+10 points.

So why are you still afraid?

These verses below, along with many others, provide a foundation for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which word while not explicitly used in the Bible, is strongly implied by the Bible's overall revelation of God.

The Godhead is described as one in essence, yet three distinct persons:
One God:
Deuteronomy 6:4 declares, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." This emphasizes the singular nature of God.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:
The Bible refers to God the Father (John 6:27, Romans 1:7), Jesus Christ as the Son of God (John 1:1, 14, Colossians 2:9), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16).
Unity in Action:
Passages like Matthew 28:19 (the Great Commission) and 2 Corinthians 13:14 (Paul's blessing) connect the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a unified way, indicating their distinct yet inseparable relationship.
2. Verses affirming the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit:
Jesus as God:
John 1:1,14 declares that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God. Colossians 2:9 states that the fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily.
Holy Spirit as God:
Acts 5:3-4 describes Ananias lying to the Holy Spirit and Peter stating he lied to God. 1 Corinthians 3:16 refers to believers as temples of the Holy Spirit, implying divine presence.
3. Examples of the Trinity in action:
Jesus' Baptism:
Matthew 3:16-17 depicts the Father's voice from heaven, the Holy Spirit descending like a dove, and Jesus being baptized. This event shows all three persons of the Trinity present and active.
Salvation:
1 Peter 1:2 speaks of the Trinity's work in salvation: "According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood".
The Gospel of John:
John 1:1-18, for example, emphasizes the deity of Christ, the Word who was with God and was God according to Ligonier Ministries. According to Ligonier Ministries, this passage highlights that the three persons are so closely associated as to imply that all three are fully divine.
4. Verses emphasizing the unity of the Godhead:
Isaiah 44:6:
This verse declares that God is the first and the last, and there is no God besides Him.
1 Corinthians 8:6:
This verse states that for Christians there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

These verses and many others, provide an unassailable foundation for the Christian doctrine of Trinity.
Anyone who wishes to argue further should argue with their bible.

Meanwhile JW have recently changed on things like associating with disfellowshiped former members, wearing a beard, and women wearing pants. They have now just changed on toasting also. Next will be birthdays and holidays for sure! See below.
Someone asked if they were serving a schizophrenic😆