₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
Oh I thought anything the article says is what we are going by. LMAO.

Just mention where in the article they say there was a global flood. Or that the flood in the Black Sea region is the flood of Noah. I'll wait. LoLz.

How can anyone say some floods are the flood of Noah? The said they found evidences that suggest that Noah's flood happened.

LordReed:
The writer did not say there was a global flood anywhere in the article nor did it suggest that because there was flood in the Black Sea area that may have been the source of the Noah story therefore it means Noah's flood is confirmed. What you failed to see was this right in the article:

Some of the details of the Noah story seem mythical, so many biblical scholars believe the story of Noah and the Ark was inspired by the legendary flood stories of nearby Mesopotamia, in particular "The Epic of Gilgamesh." These ancient narratives were already being passed down from one generation to the next, centuries before Noah appeared in the Bible.

Read it with your eyes, Noah's story is not the original.

The bolded was a Digression in the article referencing what others said. Read objectively with no bias. The writer of the article was pointing out that judging from recent discoveries, the fliood story might be true, and that there's a researcher who is hoping to find something bigger that could ultimately confirm the flood story.

LordReed:
Yes they did. Right here:

According to a controversial theory proposed by two Columbia University scientists, there really was one in the Black Sea region. They believe that the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea.

The one deceiving himself is you.

The writer wrote for the topic and not against the topic.

That 'enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea' is what you would fail to see.

No one can unearth flood, whether recent or ancient. What you can see are clues that suggested a flood Happened. And that's exactly what the article set out to achieve. To give us pointers. Rather than argue with me, you'll do well to go argue with the writer against his topic.

LordReed:
Again not a matter of opinion but of facts. The omoluwabi nonsense is from a book of funny Yoruba stories.

You won't because you can't, it doesn't exist.

So a local flood in the Black Sea area is what you bring to support your global flood story. LMAO! For Andromeda's sake it was limited to the Black Sea region, it is not evidence of a global flood.

LoLz @ already a loser. Between me with facts on hand and you with nothing but stories who really is the loser. Bwahahahahaha!

Go back and read. They never said it was a local flood, did they? There were examples of local floods in the article. The title of the article itself says Evidence that Noah's flood Happened. You guys love deceiving yourselves.

LordReed:
Oga Omoluabi is not an acknowledgement of Noah, that nonsense is from a book of funny stories. Name one culture that in your own words: cultures alien to the Bible, who have references to the man Noah.

That yoruba story position is your opinion.

There are many such legends. I wouldn't bother myself with them because they still wouldn't profit you.

There's an ongoing archeological effort in the black sea. You may want to read about it through the link below:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story%3fid=17884533

Science generally is on shifting grounds. You can die today hanging your life on the current scientific knowledge or findings. After your death, science would find new things and therefore change position. Meanwhile, you're already a loser.

KnownUnknown:
Who’s talktalk2022?

He's a mad son of a criminal whose progenitors are descended from apes.

His stock in trade is to scam you and afterwards blackmail you. A very degenerate soul.

Tell the criminal to return my 200k which he scammed me of.

LordReed:
LMAO! OMFD! That nonsense was taken from a Yoruba story book! Bwahahahahaha! Go read the actual Yoruba flood stories there is no mention of Noah. In fact, lemme help you:

In yet another Yoruba story, Oshun is depicted as the goddess who not only gives life but also takes it. When angered, Oshun may flood Earth or destroy crops by withholding her waters, thereby causing massive droughts. In one myth, Oshun is incensed by her devotees and sends down rain, nearly flooding the world. Yet once she has been appeased, Oshun saves Earth from destruction by calling back the waters.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oshun

I can bet a million bucks that you cannot name another without these obvious conflations because they didn't! Flood stories are unique to the cultures that birth them. Aside from the very obvious flood and humans (and not always a single family) in the story they barely share any other details. Not all of them have gods involved, not all of them have boats involved, not all of them have animals involved. This idea that disparate flood stories means there was a single flood that drove all the stories is as illogical as my Nile illustration.

Tell me whether I mentioned flood in relation to the Yorubas. I only mentioned the name Noah, and you and I know who Noah is.

The Yoruba flood story would be very distorted if there's any, so any reference to that is useless.

Stories become more and more distorted as they age. The only thing you can get from a story of over 5,000yrs is a clue and nothing more then that.

LordReed:
Name a culture alien to the Bible that mentions Noah in it's own flood story.

Many bro. Even the Yoruba has a culture of calling someone with a noble character 'Omoluabi' which is a compressed form of the sentence 'Omo ti Noah bi' which means a descendant of Noah.

People like us should not be making absolute statements on events that happened 5,000 yrs ago. It's unwise. Even if we depend on what archeology has found today, do we know what archeology may find tomorrow? Archeology would still make discoveries after we ate long dead.

LordReed:
Exactly. It illustrastres the illogicality of your position. Your are saying that despite the fact that diverse cultures have differing flood stories due to being close to large bodies of water they must all refer to a singular event. Even you can see how illogical that is so good on you.

There's falsehood in your statement Cultures holding on to the flood story ate not necessarily situated in proximity to large bodies of water. There are cultures alien to the Bible, whom Moses never knew about, who have references to the man Noah.

These event happened about 5,000 yrs ago. That time the study could only be passed down orally since books were not yet invented. Oral stories would definitely become nyths to people who lives 5,000 yrs after the actual events. But the fact that the story is present in extra-, biblical legends and cultures that are virtually unknown to each other is a pointer to the fact that such a tragedy took place.

Your Nile River refutation stands on a faulty premise.

LordReed:
LoLz. So if someone experiences a flood around the Nile it means some other person who lives near the Niger also experienced the flood of the Nile because floods are all the same.

This response is illogical. We were talking about a global flood.

[quote author=LordReed post=121895760]Nope. Do you not know simple geography?[/quite]

Of course, you did. My position was that a real flood must have happened for such stories of a flood to find its way into many cultures. You just confirmed that in your last post.

LordReed:
Great. Now prove that the Witness exists.

After you must have proven that He doesn't.

LordReed:
Because floods are a phenomenon wherever there are large bodies of water.

You shot yourself in the leg.

LordReed:
I just did. You prove that your Witness exists.

You have not proved that He doesn't.

jaephoenix:
1. Both participants and spectators can record events. Eclipses in the ancient days were recorded by spectators. The ancient Egyptians recorded their pyramid building progress, as participants.
2. There's nothing like perfect state in archeological findings. The depth at which an artifact is found does not, by itself, indicate age. Soil isn’t deposited at a constant rate, even in a small area. Rates of deposition are very much dependent on local geography, climate, and biological activity. Post-depositional activity can disturb relative positions (for example, plowing can raise things up or push them down). And artifacts can be deliberately buried, cutting through layers of soil.However, the depth at which an item is buried can assist in dating an artifact, or at least assist in dating when it was buried. The law of stratigraphy is that things buried deeper down are older. What you find on top is newest, stuff under that is older, stuff under that is older still, and so on. The artifacts that are supposed to be found around the supposed Bible period have been found and documented. But none of the Bible artifacts, relics, stele can be found. So let’s say that in some layer of soil you find the remains of a mosaic which, judging by the style, was probably made around 100 AD. You find some not-immediately-dateable pottery some distance below that, and some charcoal even farther down. With C-14 dating, it appears that the charcoal dates to around 500 BC. You’ve now got a couple of dates bracketing that pottery. Because it’s above the charcoal, it has to be newer than 500 BC, but because it’s beneath the mosaic, it’s got to be older than 100 AD. The depth, then, hasn’t told you how old the pottery is by itself, but along with other information, it does.
3. The creation and flood stories were supposed to be documented by Moses as Yahweh's scribe. However, this can be disregarded. Why
A. Like I have explained earlier(maybe not in this thread) there was no evidence Moses existed
B. The rocks and soil of Earth has been studied and scientists found out, there's no way something as big as a flood would have covered the whole world. Worse still, where did all the water go?
C. The story of the flood was copied from Epic of Gilgamesh and Mesopotamia flood stories which all predated the Bible.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth
Some of the details of the Noah story seem mythical, so many biblical scholars believe the story of Noah and the Ark was inspired by the legendary flood stories of nearby Mesopotamia, in particular "The Epic of Gilgamesh." These ancient narratives were already being passed down from one generation to the next, centuries before Noah appeared in the Bible.

"The earlier Mesopotamian stories are very similar where the gods are sending a flood to wipe out humans," said biblical archaeologist Eric Cline. "There's one man they choose to survive. He builds a boat and brings on animals and lands on a mountain and lives happily ever after? I would argue that it's the same story."

Catastrophic events of this kind are not unique to the Bible. Some contemporary examples include the 2004 tsunami that wiped out villages on the coasts of 11 countries surrounding the Indian Ocean. There was also Hurricane Katrina, described as the worst hurricane in United States history. copied
4. Bro I have a scientific mind. And science loves to disprove itself. What may be true today may be wrong tomorrow. So if you have evidence the flood or any Bible event happened, please let me know. I'll humbly recant. I'm not in any religion that says 'believe it by faith' irrespective of the glaring evidence against it

If there has never been a flood, why would the story be found in other cultures?
.
Remember that, story telling predates book writing. The only way people could pass information to the next generation is by telling stories which could later on be regarded as myths to those who were born thousands of years later.

The Bible gives better clarifications of the story than what those cultures present. In the Bible we have the full details of the event.

First tell me what science must find to prove a flood. The Bible recorded that before the time of the flood, there never had been a rainfall. Grasses were watered by mists. So, let's know the evidence that science wants to see. Is it the ark of Noah that was made of wood? Do you expect such an ark to survive after 5,000 years?

The name Noah is present in some cultures that never read the Bible, and were virtually unknown to Moses.

The fact that there are stories of the flood in more ancient cultures is in itself a proof and not a refutation.

LordReed:
I answered the question. Your Witness does not reside anywhere because it doesn't exist.

I said prove it.

jaephoenix:
Regarding the sun standing still. That was an experience Joshua had with his armies. We can't tell whether the phenomenon spread to other
places as well. Scientifically speaking, it should. But then, the people would only observe the phenomenon without knowing why or how it happened. Only Joshua and his people did. So, that can't be part of anybody's history.

Im referring to this group of people in your post regarding the sun/moon standing still

Where are those people today? That's my question.

LordReed:
According to reality. Very simple, tell me where in this reality your Witness resides, nowhere.

Using a question to answer a question. I know where He resides.

LordReed:
Your Witness does not exist and so has never been a part of reality.

According to you. Can you prove that?

LordReed:
I am part of reality, your Witness is not.

My witness has been before you and would continue after you're long gone. You met Him here and got to know about Him as you grew up. He'll still be here when you cease eternally. You're not the reality. You're just an illusion. There's no guarantee that you'll be here tomorrow.

LordReed:
According to reality.

Are you the reality?

Image123:
The both of you quoted me na.

I'm the complainant. He is on blackmail. I'll arrest him soon.

Image123:
FxMasterz, i don't know who you are but you need to return what doesn't belong to you.

Are you minding the fool? He's a mad boy. So, why concern yourself with a mad fellow? I owe him nothing. He should return what he owes me.

LordReed:
The purported Witness wrote nothing.

According to you.

LordReed:
The person who purportedly wrote about it was not a witness. None of of the the purported witnesses to the event wrote about it.

There's a Witness that has always been there from the beginning. He will be there even after the end.

LordReed:
LoLz! Who were the witnesses to the purported Sodom and Gomorrah event that wrote about it?

The person who was there before anyone else knew about such an event. Those who wrote about it ever before archeologists discovered it.

Linderbalogun:
The fact you all(winners chapel members)
are bunch of mentally damage people don't make you or your boss of any significant in the society but it simply means your all sick and this sicknesses is worst than coronavirus or any pandemic in the world meaning you people should be avoided. So stop making it look like the whole world resolve around you, if you can't see anything wrong others can see.

If everyone who stands for justice and equity is a member of Winner's Chapel to you, it shows the depth of your depravity and mental instability. I think you should see a psychiatrist soon.

We're telling you to state exactly what Oyedepo did to warrant the empty post you put up, you're calling us members of Winner's Chapel. You're a very useless woman.

jaephoenix:
Lol. Bro don run

For where? You've chosen what to believe. There are arguments for and against the topic. You stand for those who argue against and I stand for those who argue for.

These events happened before anyone of us. If you believe the speculators more than the witnesses, that's your own class of wisdom, and I must allow you to explore that to the maximum. So, keep clapping.

jaephoenix:
So who has the final say? Yahweh?
Think about this. Many remarkable events supposedly happened in the Bible. From Noah's Ark, til great flood, to red sea parting, sun/moon standing still, resurrections.
Yet, not one has been found or recorded by archaeologists and historians. Yet events that happened before it like Pyramids, dinosaurs etc have been recorded.

Who record events? The participators or the spectators?

Has archeology reached a perfect state where nothing more could be found?

Who should record the flood of Noah, the people swept away by the flood? Or you mean that archeologists should unearth the flood of Noah?

You only read from pages that criticise the Bible, and even if you read anything that provides evidence for Biblical events, you always chose to believe the ones that argue against the evidence.

This your bias would lead you somewhere.

jaephoenix:
I'm referring to the 'others' you mentioned in your post. Refer to it

Please would you be specific?

Dunkjames5:
Who are you calling scammer?

Apology. It wasn't for you.

jaephoenix:
Lol. Theists can claim the incredible to further their narrative.
1. Israeli history doesn't mention anything about parting of the Red Sea, sun or moon standing still. In fact, archeologists or historians , both of Egyptian or Israeli origin, have known they were all fables.
Read this from LA Times. This is from an Israeli rabbi and backed by history



On Passover last Sunday, Rabbi David Wolpe raised that provocative question before 2,200 faithful at Sinai Temple in Westwood. He minced no words.

“The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all,” Wolpe told his congregants.

Wolpe’s startling sermon may have seemed blasphemy to some. In fact, however, the rabbi was merely telling his flock what scholars have known for more than a decade. Slowly and often outside wide public purview, archeologists are radically reshaping modern understanding of the Bible. It was time for his people to know about it, Wolpe decided.

After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua’s leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua’s fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.

Today, the prevailing theory is that Israel probably emerged peacefully out of Canaan--modern-day Lebanon, southern Syria, Jordan and the West Bank of Israel--whose people are portrayed in the Bible as wicked idolators. Under this theory, the Canaanites who took on a new identity as Israelites were perhaps joined or led by a small group of Semites from Egypt--explaining a possible source of the Exodus story, scholars say. As they expanded their settlement, they may have begun to clash with neighbors, perhaps providing the historical nuggets for the conflicts recorded in Joshua and Judges.

“Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we’ve broken the news very gently,” said William Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America’s preeminent archeologists.


Dever’s view is emblematic of a fundamental shift in archeology. Three decades ago as a Christian seminary student, he wrote a paper defending the Exodus and got an A, but “no one would do that today,” he says. The old emphasis on trying to prove the Bible--often in excavations by amateur archeologists funded by religious groups--has given way to more objective professionals aiming to piece together the reality of ancient lifestyles.

But the modern archeological consensus over the Exodus is just beginning to reach the public. In 1999, an Israeli archeologist, Ze’ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, set off a furor in Israel by writing in a popular magazine that stories of the patriarchs were myths and that neither the Exodus nor Joshua’s conquests ever occurred. In the hottest controversy today, Herzog also argued that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, described as grand and glorious in the Bible, was at best a small tribal kingdom.

In a new book this year, “The Bible Unearthed,” Israeli archeologist Israel Finklestein of Tel Aviv University and archeological journalist Neil Asher Silberman raised similar doubts and offered a new theory about the roots of the Exodus story. The authors argue that the story was written during the time of King Josia of Judah in the 7th century BC--600 years after the Exodus supposedly occurred in 1250 BC--as a political manifesto to unite Israelites against the rival Egyptian empire as both states sought to expand their territory.


Dever argued that the Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny.

Some scholars, of course, still maintain that the Exodus story is basically factual.

Bryant Wood, director of the Associates for Biblical Research in Maryland, argued that the evidence falls into place if the story is dated back to 1450 BC. He said that indications of destruction around that time at Hazor, Jericho and a site he is excavating that he believes is the biblical city of Ai support accounts of Joshua’s conquests.

He also cited the documented presence of “Asiatic” slaves in Egypt who could have been Israelites, and said they would not have left evidence of their wanderings because they were nomads with no material culture. But Wood said he can’t get his research published in serious archeological journals.

“There’s a definite anti-Bible bias,” Wood said.

The revisionist view, however, is not necessarily publicly popular.

Herzog, Finklestein and others have been attacked for everything from faulty logic to pro-Palestinian political agendas that undermine Israel’s land claims. Dever, a former Protestant minister who converted to Judaism 12 years ago, says he gets “hissed and booed” when he speaks about the lack of evidence for the Exodus, and regularly receives letters and calls offering prayers or telling him he’s headed for hell.

At Sinai Temple, Sunday’s sermon--and a follow-up discussion at Monday’s service--provoked tremendous, and varied, response. Many praised Wolpe for his courage and vision. “It was the best sermon possible, because it is preparing the young generation to understand all the truth about religion,” said Eddia Mirharooni, a Beverly Hills fashion designer.

A few said they were hurt--”I didn’t want to hear this,” one woman said--or even a bit angry. Others said the sermon did nothing to shake their faith that the Exodus story is true.

“Science can always be proven wrong,” said Kalanit Benji, a UCLA undergraduate in psychobiology.

Added Aman Massi, a 60-year-old Los Angeles businessman: “For sure it was true, 100%. If it were not true, how could we follow it for 3,300 years?”

But most congregants, along with secular Jews and several rabbis interviewed, said that whether the Exodus is historically true or not is almost beside the point. The power of the sweeping epic lies in its profound and timeless message about freedom, they say.

The story of liberation from bondage into a promised land has inspired the haunting spirituals of African American slaves, the emancipation and civil rights movements, Latin America’s liberation theology, peasant revolts in Germany, nationalist struggles in South Africa, the American Revolution, even Leninist politics, according to Michael Walzer in the book “Exodus and Revolution.”
Many of Wolpe’s congregants said the story of the Exodus has been personally true for them even if the details are not factual: when they fled the Nazis during World War II, for instance, or, more recently, the Islamic revolution in Iran. Daniel Navid Rastein, an Encino medical professional, said he has always regarded the story as a metaphor for a greater truth: “We all have our own Egypts--we are prisoners of something, either alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, overeating. We have to use [the story] as a way to free ourselves from difficulty and make ourselves a better person.”

Wolpe, Sinai Temple’s senior rabbi, said he decided to deliver the sermon to lead his congregation into a deeper understanding of their faith. On Sunday, he told his flock that questioning the Jewish people’s founding story could be justified for one reason alone: to honor the ancient rabbinical declaration that “You do not serve God if you do not seek truth.”
“I think faith ought not rest on splitting seas,” Wolpe said in an interview. “For a Jew, it should rest on the wonder of God’s world, the marvel of the human soul and the miracle of this small people’s survival through the millennia.”
Next year, the rabbi plans to teach a course on the Bible that he says will “pull no punches” in presenting the latest scholarship questioning the text’s historical basis.

But he and others say that Judaism has also traditionally been more open to nonliteral interpretations of the text than, say, some conservative Christian traditions.

“Among Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews, there is a much greater willingness to see the Torah as an extended metaphor in which truth comes through story and law,” said Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles.
Among scholars, the case against the Exodus began crystallizing about 13 years ago. That’s when Finklestein, director of Tel Aviv University’s archeology institute, published the first English-language book detailing the results of intensive archeological surveys of what is believed to be the first Israelite settlements in the hilly regions of the West Bank.

The surveys, conducted during the 1970s and 1980s while Israel possessed what are now Palestinian territories, documented a lack of evidence for Joshua’s conquests in the 13th century BC and the indistinguishable nature of pottery, architecture, literary conventions and other cultural details between the Canaanites and the new settlers.

If there was no conquest, no evidence of a massive new settlement of an ethnically distinct people, scholars argue, then the case for a literal reading of Exodus all but collapses. The surveys’ final results were published three years ago.

The settlement research marked the turning point in archeological consensus on the issue, Dever said. It added to previous research that showed that Egypt’s voluminous ancient records contained not one mention of Israelites in the country, although one 1210 BC inscription did mention them in Canaan.

Kadesh Barnea in the east Sinai desert, where the Bible says the fleeing Israelites sojourned, was excavated twice in the 1950s and 1960s and produced no sign of settlement until three centuries after the Exodus was supposed to have occurred. The famous city of Jericho has been excavated several times and was found to have been abandoned during the 13th and 14th centuries BC.

Moreover, specialists in the Hebrew Bible say that the Exodus story is riddled with internal contradictions stemming from the fact that it was spliced together from two or three texts written at different times. One passage in Exodus, for instance, says that the bodies of the pharaoh’s charioteers were found on the shore, while the next verse says they sank to the bottom of the sea.


And some of the story’s features are mythic motifs found in other Near Eastern legends, said Ron Hendel, a professor of Hebrew Bible at UC Berkeley. Stories of babies found in baskets in the water by gods or royalty are common, he said, and half of the 10 plagues fall into a “formulaic genre of catastrophe” found in other Near Eastern texts.

Carol Meyers, a professor specializing in biblical studies and archeology at Duke University, said the ancients never intended their texts to be read literally. “People who try to find scientific explanations for the splitting of the Red Sea are missing the boat in understanding how ancient literature often mixed mythic ideas with historical recollections,” she said. “That wasn’t considered lying or deceit; it was a way to get ideas across.”

Virtually no scholar, for instance, accepts the biblical figure of 600,000 men fleeing Egypt, which would have meant there were a few million people, including women and children. The ancient desert at the time could not support so many nomads, scholars say, and the powerful Egyptian state kept tight security over the area, guarded by fortresses along the way.

Even Orthodox Jewish scholar Lawrence Schiffman said “you’d have to be a bit crazy” to accept that figure. He believes that the account in Joshua of a swift military campaign is less accurate than the Judges account of a gradual takeover of Canaan. But Schiffman, chairman of Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University, still maintains that a significant number of Israelite slaves fled Egypt for Canaan.

“I’m not arguing that archeology proves the Exodus,” he said. “I’m arguing that archeology allows you, in ambiguity, to reach whatever conclusion you want to.”

Wood argued that the 600,000 figure was mistranslated and the real number amounted to a more plausible 20,000. He also said the early Israelite settlements and their similarity to Canaanite culture could be explained as the result of pastoralists with no material culture moving into a settled farming life and absorbing their neighbors’ pottery styles and other cultural forms.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-apr-13-mn-50481-story.html

I can pull up more evidence if you want.
But you can still decide to be angry(like some Judaists there) that the story you hold so dear has holes in them, or decide to face the truth head-on, and jump into that rabbit hole

2.
Regarding the sun standing still. That was an experience Joshua had with his armies. We can't tell whether the phenomenon spread to other places as well. Scientifically speaking, it should. But then, the people would only observe the phenomenon without knowing why or how it happened
So you're saying other people elsewhere observed the sun standing still and didn't know what the sun or moon was? I don't understand.
Or you mean, they observed it and didn't know what they were observing.
If the later, that is the more reason they should have recorded such a puzzling event, something that hasn't happened before. Don't you think?

Who are those observers you're talking about? Point out those nations today.