₦airaland Forum

Nteogwuija:
A hired killer(a man) suddenly gave his life to Christ and then baptism clears him of the murders he committed, and then he goes to heaven when he dies.

Then those he killed, the ones who were "sinners", would rot in hell because they didn't have the chance the murderer had because the murderer cut short their lives.

Make this make sense to me, abeg.

they go to hell not because they were killed but for their own sins, so even if they were not killed they may just live longer and go there later abi.

Now is it better for say 10 people to go to hell or one less person to go?

Dtruthspeaker:
Before, the white bandits brought their writing down of laws, the Yorubas, ibos, Benins, Ijaws etc were already practicing all the laws you know today as Criminal Law, Law of contracts and upholding the rights of a child.

And no where have you seen a child younger than 7years being held criminally responsible.

And even from back then till tomorrow you would hear "leave am. Na pikin. When hin grow, hin go understand say dis things no good as you dey teach am".

And go and examine the Bible, no where did you see God or anyone put a child on trial.

From Genesis to revelations, they are all adults or young people. No child

true

manuelkel:
You don't receive salvation by being deeped into water, baptism is a segregation of Christian faith. It significance rests on the acceptance of Christian faith and not salvation. Every religious belief have a way of accepting such religious faith, accepting a religious faith like Christianity through baptism does not mean you already have achieved salvation.....

true

Lukuluku69:
He raised the dead? Good of him.

Now you are talking baptism of a child if I am correct, did he command you to such? If yes, then do it.

That's the right path.

water baptism(which is of John)? Or baptism of Jesus Christ?

Dtruthspeaker:
It is the guilty that are cast in prison, so what offences would a child be guilty of to be delivered to hel?

Even, ye ivu men acknowledge that a child under 7yrs is not criminally responsible. Child Rights Act/ Criminal Code

CRA was done in 2003, Criminal Code in 1916 so before then what happened? Were there no children?

Even thou Deut. 21 mentions stoning a rebellious child I doubt a 3yr old counts (I haven't seen a toddler be a drunkard)

Does the law of God have an age prohibition or exception because can't say children don't do wrong and seeing as the said laws doesn't excuse ignorance and it is still punishable

Lukuluku69:
Do what Jesus did. Follow his examples. If you do, you are on right path and not those of men.

So, search scriptures and see what Jesus did and commanded his disciples to do.

Chikena.

Jesus did a lot of things especially raising the dead, walking on water so which of them should you do and walk on the right path

Itu404 "man cannot attain righteousness" yet Noah was called righteous and Abraham attained it by his faith, what of Job and Daniel commended by God for being righteous?

WantsandMore:
That's not true, the wages of sin is death case in point, Samson died a painful death. To think that Samson birth was a divine revelation by an angel

he died because he loved the wrong woman

God bless the OP for the wonderful post 👍👍👍👍

Rev.19.10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


No testimony is greater at building faith than the testimony of Jesus

Forsake your life and follow Jesus

John.12.25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Rev.12.11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

As many around the world celebrate a festive season they believe to be the birth of Christ Jesus, who later at around 30yr of age got water baptized by his cousin, John the Baptist, we try to consider what appropriate age is right for water baptism if it is required at all.

On the subject of age, of all those recorded baptisims in the new testament only the age of Jesus was mentioned.

I have heard some argue that if a child wasn't baptized or holy water didn't touch the child, if the child died they would go to hell. While I have also heard some others say no to child water baptism, and among them some claim a certain age where it doesn't matter what they do they are innocent before God and as such if they die they go "back to their maker".

I believe the whole purpose of water baptism was to reveal who the anointed son of God is and that's why Jesus went to fulfill and do what was right and was revealed as God's son in whom God's well pleased. Shortly after Jesus's baptism, John gets arrested and beheaded. Now some may say John's disciples and those of Jesus baptized with water but Jesus didn't do so.

Jesus does baptize us but with the living water, the Holy Spirit. So I like Paul believe in this baptism and not water baptism, which nullifies the argument of if a new born or toddler or children of certain age bracket should be deeped into water or not. Though children are not innocent as many of them lie, steal and do a lot of wrong things mainly out of ignorance. I doubt John the Baptist deeped them into the Jordan River, well maybe he did, as it won't kill even an infant to be deeped into water but the whole purpose of that baptism was a symbol that those who went to John were repenting from their sins and forsaking their past lives. It's also possible that the household baptisms mentioned in acts were not water nor involved deeping little children into water.

What do you think should your child be deeped into water to receive salvation or not?

Because Trinity is a false doctrine not from God, who isn't an author of such confusion.

Anyway why is Ireanaeus in that list of those who were not Trinitarians, because I have seen quotes where he claimed Jesus is God. @muslim100

MaxInDHouse:
If he ask you what Daniel meant by fire please tell him that Daniel himself asked God for the meaning of these symbolic terms but God told him it's not for him or his generation to understand what it means:

I heard the answer, but I really didn’t understand. So I asked, “Sir, what will happen after all this comes true?” Daniel 12:8

God responded:

“Go on about your life Daniel. The message is hidden. It will be a secret until the time of the end. Daniel 12:9

So the meaning of all these symbolic terms were hidden until our own time and only true servants of God will know the meaning Jesus said it's these anointed Christians that will teach his real disciples in the end time the meaning of all these signs! Matthew 24:45

For your information the Bible book of Daniel 12:1 revealed that archangel Michael is the one who will lead servants of God to unravel all these sacred secrets well if you are willing to accept it Jesus Christ is the hidden archangel Michael so only those who recognize his presence will understand!

look we know you don't preach Jesus Christ of Nazareth you preach Jehovah's witness but at times you have to respectfully KYMShut.

You don't care if people's souls are saved but solely care about growing some sect or cult upon the earth with you myopic believes even if they contradict the word of God. You are like the Pharisees, you won't enter the kingdom of God but you won't let others enter as well.

Look at you shameless sharing deceptive tactics to avoid one from honestly evaluately what is written.

thinkmoney:
You are obviously not a good Bible student.
Daniels vision (or dream) like Joseph’s, Isaiah’s, Ezekiel’s and Johns all use animal or some bizarre looking creatures to represent things.
7 cows represents seven years in Joseph’s case. It’s noteworthy however, that the creatures in Daniel, Ezekiel and Johns visions are similar. They represents things that will happen in the last days.
The creatures, things and event in this visions represents things and ideas. The Angel explained to Daniel that the animals are kingdoms (like I explained the creature at Revelation to that it represents political powers of the earth). The Angel didn’t explain the fire from Gods throne. However, putting Bible together one will come to the conclusion that the fire represents destructive power of God to bring judgement to erring nations and power, both physical and spiritual.
The fire coming out of the throne like the lake of fire in Revelation is used to pass judgement. It’s used to destroy and bring to nonexistence.
“Our God will come and cannot remain silent.
Before him is a consuming fire,
And a great storm rages all around him.” Psalm 50:3.

Our God will come and cannot remain silent.
Before him is a consuming fire,
And a great storm rages all around him.

Fire goes before him
And consumes his adversaries on every side. Psalm 97:3.

This fire represents the destructive ability of God and his capability to render judgement.

I will give you an example from that same passage in Daniel. The four beast represents four world powers that will still come after Daniel.
We have had Babylon, Greece, Rome and now we are in the last one -Anglo-Saxon- power. It will soon get divided into several powers. We are entering that phase of multipolar world where China is coming up, India too, Russia and several others.
These other powers that have gone were burned by the fire. They were made to cease to exist. But if you are a good student of history, you will know that Babylon, Rome, and Greece where in no time burned by a big inferno that destroyed them and they are not in any hell.
But they have met there end. They have been consumed by the fire from God.
The serving political powers today represented by the beast, the false prophet, Devil himself, sinners, grave and death will soon be destroyed as it where by this fire of God [or from God]. They will all go into non-existence

Deception is an art, your sophistry an amusing act

Daniel wrote signs and symbols of which were interpreted by the wisdom of God even in the said text, your long yarns were not needed from some trying to evaluate others as Bible students or not, something you are clearly not.

NOW IN CONTEXT OF DANIEL 7 the fire wasn't metaphorically, now you obviously know that is the truth as you have not and cannot give a metaphorically meaning or usage to the fire but dance around with what the beasts and other symbols represent.


Why don't you also call the ancient one metaphorically or the son of man metaphorically as well.

Thank God the remaining verses in that Daniel 7 explained the symbols used metaphorically.

May God help and possibly forgive you.

thinkmoney:
Maybe I don’t know the meaning of metaphor. Because I don’t understand this fuss.
Ok, what I mean all the while is that the lake of fire is not a literal burning fire, it’s an analogy to represent things coming to an end- being put out of existence. Bad people, the beast, Satan, death, grave all get thrown into this FIGURATIVE lake of fire, which means SECOND DEATH.
So if you will continue making fuss and keep saying the lake is a literal fire then fare there well bro. I don try for you.
If your head block others are not that irredeemable.

"an analogy to represent 'things' coming to an end" which things? Things you said were not material abi, okay so your metaphorically meaning is that the lake of fire means to bring to an end things, put them out of existence but did you skip the part where is was written, they were THROWN IN ALIVE chap. 19, then chap. 20 THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAILY FOREVER

SOOOO TELL US HOW TO THEY END DAILY FOREVER
and WHYYYYY

is what you are saying contradicting the phrase written in the text

basanisthesontai which means torment not end them

Dan.7.10 - 11
and a river of fire flowed from his presence. Millions of angels ministered to him, and a hundred million stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened. I continued to watch because I could hear the little horn's boastful speech. I kept watching until the fourth beast was killed and its body was destroyed by fire.

Thinkmoney if Jesus was using "Gehenna" what was Daniel using here?

thinkmoney:
It’s important for you to know that Christians have some fundamental general assumptions about the meaning of things, but if you understand the Bible really, you will know that these popular assumptions might be wrong. The Bible prophesied that in our days, deceivers will come out deceiving MANY. It advised that he that think he stands should do a reassessment.

You have to have the calmness and condition of mind to listen to things that are radically different from what you have known.



*First the beast there is not even a literal beast. It’s an imaginary animal that is used to describe the Worldwide political system. It rules over “every tribe and people and tongue and nation,” so it is greater than a single national government.
This shows how the political set up of the world, it’s leaders were used to do Satans bidding. So you see that in consistence with the metaphoric value of Revelation, the wild beast isn’t just a literal entity, but an animal that symbolizes a system.

*The false prophet too, isn't just an individual, but it represents individuals and organizations that skillfully teach people things that take them away from God or make them question God. The theory of evolution and its proponents that many nations of the world have embraced to explain the existence and essence of things may fall into this category.

*you see how the “sky and earth” fled before the great throne. Does earth have leg to run? Does sky have wings to fly away? Again in that Revelation 20:9-15; “death and grave” were thrown into the lake of. Can death and grace be handled? Isn’t this a pointer to the fact that many of thing are allegorical? How do you burn grave and death in a literal lake of fire?

What’s this lake of fire?

*There was an actual lake of fire that sulfur was added to constantly in the time of Christ and the Apostles.
There was a valley just outside the big walls of Jerusalem. It was a huge dump site. Rubbish and sometimes criminals that have been executed that people deem not to deserve burial were thrown in to it to dispose off them. There was a fire that constantly burn at this site because sulfur was constantly poured on it. The name of this lake is Gehenna.
Sometimes when Jesus said things like “somebody that hate his brother will be throne into “hell”, the word the Bible translators of the Bible translate as hell is Gehenna. It’s that burning lake (valley) Jesus was using to describe the destruction such person will face. Jesus explicitly use Gehenna.
In this lake too, worms feast on the decomposing body. You can imagine the horror of the face. There apparently are some bodies that flies perch on and lay there maggots on. The Bible describe this maggots that they never die, that can mean you will always find them slithering on the decomposing corpse.

**what’s more? Revelation 21:8; explains what this lake of fire represent. I will quote your version. “their doom is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH." The lake represents the second death, which is the permanent death, a death without hope of resurrection. Permanent destruction and forfeiture of the gift of God that is eternal life (or forever existence). That is why death and grave too can be said to be thrown into this lake, because around that time that sinners are thrown into that figurative fire and made to cease to exist, death too will be no more. Nobody will die again and the use of graves will go extinct.

Yes, somebody can use USA and 9ja as two different things to show 2 contrasting realties. There can be a proverb in a place were somebody say things like “eh, David, we wey support APC na for America we dey live oh, the government are showing us a lot of favor, while you guys that are rebellious to Tinubu are the one living in 9ja. You are being deprived of several subsidies the government offers ( this is just an example you know, it’s not the exact description of things in Nigeria).

guy you know deceivers like jam-talk, which is what you are doing here
Lake of fire being the second death, is not a metaphor, a description/definition/explanation is not a metaphor. Just look at the bunch of IRRELEVANT volumous twarp you, all you have had to do WAS TO SHOW HOW IT'S A METAPHOR AND STATE IT'S DIFFERENT MEANING.

At least have the shame to admit you were wrong. THERE WAS NOT ONE THING YOU WROTE THERE THAT CLEARLY ADDRESSES THE SUBJECT OF CONVERSATION, lake of fire being a metaphor, I don't care about wild beasts or bush fowls, don't care about anything else that you do not relate to the lake of fire being a metaphor and not a literally place they get thrown into like you original stated

thinkmoney:
NIV too doesn’t translate a lot of places well. I can show you three more errors in NIV and I am sure you take time to verify things that are new to you.
Did NIV even use anything like signify ? It just went on and say “made it known”.
I can show you three more errors, one is even just a position of punctuation mark in a sentence. Yes, such subtle insignificant things can change the whole meaning of a message.
I don’t want to do it now as it will open more fronts. This one we are dealing with is already overwhelming. Do I am going to focus on replying to that your long comment

so after telling me to wait let you find time, this is the best you could come up with. An irrelevant mention of possible errors in a Bible translation not related to the topic at hand where I clearly stated the Greek text and wrote out the interpretations of a verse you incorrectly attempted to use to justify your statement that "burning fire" as used in Rev. 19,20&21 is a metaphor.

Wow

Truthseeker10:
🤣🤣🤣na wa....so the bible says that wild beast was literally tormented, You mean God tormented an animal in the lake of fire?


hell and death were also literally tormented? You mean that death and hell can feel pains of torment?
Na wa oo🤣🤣

The ones in Revelation 20:9 please show me where they went to after fire consumed them. Show me where they were literally tormented in the lake of fire.

bro you still don't know how to read o. Is that where the story ended or was that the only verse I quoted? 🤣 bro only an semi-illiterate would read an answer and ask a question where is the answer but I am no surprised is it not you again.

Truthseeker10 you want me to start with you and again and school you in the basics of common sense, problem is you will not still learn.

Anyway hope you take the roasted wild beast meat that you are seeing and stuff your mouth with it o 🤣😂🤣🤣😂

Below is a recent example

https://www.nairaland.com/8578589/how-political-power-empire-helped#137812632

thinkmoney:
What are you so dishonest? Is it only sinners that were burnt there? Didn’t it say death? Is death a material thing?
Just wait a moment let me reply to that your long comment.

dishonest? Is it not you who wrote this sentence
"Lake of fire in revelation was aptly used to show how those things and ideas- sinners, Devil and Death will be destroyed."....?

So where is the dishonesty you are accusing me of?

thinkmoney:
The message according to the Bible were given to him in signs or symbols. This must first be clear.
You at a point alleged there was no “signify” , symbolized or signs. You quoted from a translation that omitted those things entirely. You mocked.
I however showed you. So it’s not as if it’s only “fire” you have been talking about.
Still hold a moment let me reply that your Long comment.

at your imaginary point, I quoted NIV that had the correct translation which stated "made known" which I also wrote if you read it properly.

"Which one is it's not only fire" that me, wait it was you that brought up revelation 1:1 and whined incorrectly about me not responding to it. If YOU don't want to talk about rev. 1:1 then stop bringing it up

MaxInDHouse:
By the time Rome began fighting and killing people for religion Christianity has disappeared from the surface of planet earth.
What Jesus taught totally differs from the religion of Romans Jesus himself said this will happen after his disciples die off! Matthew 13:25
So by the time Rome was going about claiming they are propaganting a religion for Christ it was the spirit of the Antichrist that's working not God's holy spirit.

you mean to say the church Jesus Christ of Nazareth built disappeared from the surface of the earth? We are in 2025 so which year did that one happen?

Truthseeker10:
So you mean that the wild beast and his false prophet, death and hell were literally tormented in the lake of fire?

What of those in Revelation 20:9 that fire consumed them, were they also tormented in the lake of fire, where did they go to?

what did you read?

HeatSeeker:
Your write up is simply a matter of perspective.

Everything that happened, happened because it needed to happen and could not have happened any other way.

The hand of God was upon the faith and all was set in place to put the path on a trajectory of growth and dominance.

State power or not, the spread of Christianity was the will of GOD. It still remains a legitimate route to experiencing the consciousness of GOD despite the many failings of the priests and leaders that walk the path.

Every religion goes through a phase of standardization. Rome played a role in streamlining the path of Christianity, but it was still the spirit of GOD pulling the strings from behind the scenes.

was the hand of God upon Islam as well?

truespeak:
Yet yet yet another one.

You are obviously a ma.. eve fellow so threatened by Christianity that you do not shi or pi without taking a dose of your anti Christianity meds

is there anything there that theawakensoul wrote that is false?

Thinkmoney and who ever agreed with that fallacious reasoning are funny o

Someone writes a text describing a place or an end result, and you call it a metaphor but can't give us the metaphorically meaning of "lake of fire" in context

Not mentioning Daniel, let's quote from Revelation

Rev.19.20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast--miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.


Rev.20.9 - 15
And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and I saw the one who was sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done. The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds. And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


Rev.21.8 - But cowards who turn away from me, and unbelievers, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the immoral, and those who practice witchcraft, and idol worshipers, and all liars--their doom is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

So an English author telling a story says the good guys go to US and the bad guys to 9ja, but to you the "9ja" here is metaphorical... ah God 🤦‍♂️

thinkmoney:
Metaphor

a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

so it fire destroying not a literal application of fire?

I may stop chatting with you because it appears you are very insincere. I have showed you the real wording of revelation 1:1, you didn’t talk despite my effort bringing them up. You only come with that your stupid laughing emoji.

so you want to claim I did not answer your revelation 1:1?

The good thing is that you are not the only one seeing our conversation, there are some sincere people and I am sure a light as been ignited in them.

Now this is another example of a metaphor;

He was a black hole, pulling everyone’s energy into his orbit.

This means the guy has a strong character that pulls everybody to him. So now if I must follow your irritating vexing logic, I can’t use “pull” again because “pull” have already been used in the metaphor?

Fire we know destroy things. Lake of fire in revelation was aptly used to show how those things and ideas- sinners, Devil and Death will be destroyed.

bro I don't know the point of you giving another example that clearly proves my point of a different meaning and you improperly stating that burning fire is a metaphor, meanwhile when asked you said it means destruction. Bro does burning fire mean creation before? That's why I am laughing.

Look at you calling sinners "AN IDEA" If I don't laugh should I cry

thinkmoney:
You have some translations use symbolized, you have another use signs and you just interpret’signify’ like that?
Again you disregard the fact that the whole book now went ahead to support ‘symbolized’ by using things like lamb, fire, animals, eyes in the whole body, voices from a chair, mark of the beast, 7headed lion, some animal forms that is not in existence way more than any other Bible books to pass messages and give graphic meaning to things?

Doesn’t what the book contain proof “symbolized “ in the introductory verse of verse 1, accurate?

bro a book containing metaphors isn't a metaphoric book but a book containing metaphors. I did not disregard anything like symbols being used in the book of revelation I only asked you to explain and tell us the metaphorically meaning of fire being used in Revelation 20 and 21.

Except you are saying EVERYTHING in that book is metaphoric ?

But if it you using the Greek word for signify to mean metaphoric I say bro claim down, John was not metaphorically spoken to by the angel, an angel was sent to signify and make known to him the things that will happen. Where symbols and metaphors used? Yes but was it all metaphoric and having different meanings than a literal interpretation NO.

Or you want to get into the conversation of what is the metaphorically meaning of those coming back to eternal life, since both souls, death, life etc are not material things

thinkmoney:
Ok good. You have reach the stage I was baiting you to reach. I appreciate you take out time to confirm things.
My brother though, if you are a Christian and you love God and take your salvation very important, you must learn to read and read and make researches. Devil since a long time ago has been fighting either to entirely destroy the Bible or muddle it up.
Our translators of the several many English versions we have either didn’t do a good job (in fact KJV is a translation from a translation) or some were mischievous and render the translation to subtly conform to their theology.

That part of the Bible like many other part isn’t properly translated in many English version. Now I will show you three version. That try as much as possible to offer a literal ‘word-for-words’ translation. You can go online to check Bible hub. Curiously too, you will need to go way down to see translation that offer this (this is for you to see that the fight against Gods word and it’s pure message is real).

REVELATION 1:1

Literal Standard Version
A revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to Him to show to His servants what things must quickly come to pass; and He SIGNIFIED [it], having sent through His messenger to His servant John.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he SYMBOLIZED it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan.

The New World Translation
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in SIGNS through him to his slave John.

Hope to hear from you again

tbh when I asked you for the word I meant the Greek word not the English translation

The word you think means signs in Greek is esēmanen

Which is to SIGNIFY and not for symbols and analogies, but to indicate, make known with clarity

thinkmoney:
For total destruction of death, sinners and Satan.
Death is cast in it you remember? Is death a material thing. Go and check your previous question about Revelation 1:1. I have given a detailed reply

😂
Bro when I said you don't know what metaphors are, it's not by giving good example, because even after giving a good example of a metaphor with the breeze and the fowl, you still don't know what metaphors are.

Metaphors give a DIFFERENT MEANING to a text or phase. So what is the different meaning?

🤣 you know what you did here is like, oh I used fire to burn my books so the metaphoric meaning is I destroyed my books 😂😂🤣🤣

Thinkmoney where art thou, come and shows u, from the metaphoric book of revelation, since because to you it's a metaphoric book therefore the fire mentioned inside is a metaphor maybe God mentioned inside to is also a metaphor