And I just want to say this:


In all honesty, I never knew there are Christians that actually see Islam this way until I joined Nairaland.

But then, babyosisi's post in a certain thread only goes to prove further, my stance on this issue.  However, I realized that another post of hers in the same thread is exactly why Christians believe both religions worship different Gods.  But then, hasn't that even re-emphasized my point that Christianity and Islam see God in different ways?  I love the way JosBoy4Lif put it:  There's only One God, but different Idealogies.

Think about it guys.

gbade. x:

Sorry! Typo error there!!

I meant to say that by disagreeing/refusing to accept the fact that Christians and Muslims serve different deities, you are indirectly saying that Jesus is not "the way, the truth, and the life".

Shikena

I am not indirectly saying that. I am not even implying that at all. You may present your arguments here, if you don't mind: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-37590.0.html and you'll see where I'm coming from.

By the way gbade. x, I really do commend you for the level of maturity you've displayed here so far. Please keep it up.

mrpataki:

Sometimes I forget that I am not talking to people of great minds,

Maybe because you're not one yourself?

mrpataki:

the other time goodguy was misquoting me when I said "great Nairaland users", he was quick to cook up the theory that there were non-great Nairaland users.

I expected you to get the satire. Unfortunately, you didn't.

mrpataki:

Matthew 11:12 -And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

If this is to back up David's Matt 23:33, all I can say is "Haba!"

So you too have joined the league of the Out-of-context Bible quoters?  Please just be yourself, mrpataki.  A good Christian is not determined by how many Bible verses he can quote offhand.  When you're wrong and you know it yourself, just accept humbly, rather than quote Bible verses completely out of context to justify yourself.  David that you're taking after has not gotten out of the one he trapped himself in earlier, and he has cunningly dodged my post.

Pray tell, how on earth does Matthew 11:12 have anything to do with ope_emi's rebuttal?

I am not claiming to know better than anyone here, but on this issue. . .  Haba!

mlks_baby:

Hi guys,

Very briefly, I'll just announce the winners and losers before shahan anticipates me. She's taken off with one bloke I've been eyeing for the past few days. And I'm locking her out when she returns!

For early momo?   Correct babe!

mlks_baby:

Here goes:

shahan is the 1st

m4malik is 2nd

mlks_baby is 3rd.

Any winners? Lol.

Yeah!  That's what I typed initially, actually.  I don't know how it got changed.  I was right afterall.   So Shahan na the Akobi of the Idile?  That's cool, really cool. 

mlks_baby:

Meanwhile, I'm speechless that goodguy guessed right the zoo we visited - Melbourne! How did you know, even without a hint??

Na God.

mlks_baby:

Okay, I owe you a gift pack and will send it by registered mail as soon as I get back to school.

Yipee!!!  Na na na na na!

*sings* 
               Winner oh oh oh, Winner!
               Winner oh oh oh, Winner!
               Satan you don lose o, Winner!
               kpatakpata you go loose forever, Winner!

mlks_baby:

When you receive it, could you please confirm to the house that I was serious about all this?

Sure, sure!!   [no blame me, na mixed feelings ]

mlks_baby:

I've had a very good holiday out here. Australia is a beautiful country in many ways - and I'm definitely coming back after my exams! I must run now and catch the early morning fresh air.

Ciao for now!

I wish you the very best out there.  And I wish you great success in your exams.  May God be with you.  Amen.

I don't worship a god.  I worship the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Here's a post from a Muslim: 

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=38267.32#msg859377

And that's my point exactly.

davidylan:

It can't be the Jesus who SAID He was the way the truth and the life, Goodguy has told us that was not what Jesus meant.

I am deluded, ignorant and blind - that's a really nice way to address issues, you know? Anyway, can you kindly show me where I said outrightly that Jesus did not mean He is the Way, Truth and Life?

Aiight. . .

*goodguy's back from church*

gbade. x, I understand you perfectly. .  I just don't agree.  I've been repeating myself over and over again and there really isn't any point posting on this issue any further.


And on this note. .  I hereby rest my case.  Take care guys.

So Nairaland get great and "ungreat" people?  Seun did not tell us that one o!

And what will their shock do to my life?  You really amuse me, mrpataki!

So anyone that pursues peace between Christians and Muslims automatically becomes a Muslim?  Funny guy!

I gat 2 go to church now. Catch ya later!

mrpataki:

I care less what your opinion of me is actually. I am only concerned with the fact that you coul label another person as to not been a christian rather a churchgoer, yet you know little of the God Christians worship!

I think God would even prefer a churchgoer to bible-thumping hypocrites, hiding under the umbrella of "I sabi quote Bible pass you, you no sabi God reach me" attitude.

mrpataki:

Believe all you want about me, at least, I told you what I believe about you, but really I am not bothered at all!

Now you remind me of secondary school.  Gone are those days!

mrpataki:

Really the fuss is that, you should be the one applying your sense of logics to see that the muslim idol is different from the God true christians worship.

This is where everyone is missing it.  Muslims do not worship Idols.  They worship the true living God that we Christians serve, and that's why I can confidently equate the Muslim God with the Christian God (not that they are different anyway).

You people are looking at it from the "The Christian God is bigger and superior" angle, but I'm simply looking at it from "The Christian/Muslim God is the Supreme God, and both worship Him" angle.  I'm not equating any idol with God Almighty.  Geddit?

Hey neelsel, everyone's just having fun here.  You can also share in the fun, if you don't mind. .  'cuzz we don't.


@ Shahan, where art thou?  I just got two new titles from the most important fellow on Nairaland - mrpataki, namely Alfa and Imam.  Isn't he such a nice guy?  He didn't even collect money from me!

And ermm, where's my gift?  Actually, I know you're the second, and mlks_baby is the 3rd.  That was what I typed initially, but somehow, the post got modified overnight.  I know I'm right, so where the heck is my gift?

And as for the zoo you visited, it was the Melbourne zoo. I should be expecting double gifts now, right? Thanks in advance!

mrpataki:

@ Imam goodguy,
Well am not reasoning with you at all on that line knowing that you are full pledged muslim!

Aha!  There we have it.   Now, I see the cause of the Christian/Muslim attacks on Nairaland.  As far as the opposer is a Muslim, the post should be attacked under all circumstances!  You really are a good Christian, brother!  I can see God clapping for you sef. 

mrpataki:

Now I ask you, Does both religion enjoin the men to beat their women as dogs, equate them to animals, does both religion enjoin that it is by works that we shall be saved?

Does both religion support that killing the infidels is the ideal way of propagating their gospels?
Does both religion support the fact that marrying more than one woman is ideal in Gods eyes?

Stop making me to believe that you cannot reason at all!

I should be the one saying this to you.  Don't make me believe you cannot read, think and reason at all!  I have posted several times on this thread, and other threads that there are differences, and your list up there is just a part of it.  So what really is the fuss all about?

mrpataki:

@ goodguy,
Henceforth, I choose to believe that you are nothing but a marauding muslim here.

And you are. . .?  Anyway, you're free to choose whatever you want to believe brother.  It's a free world afterall.  And even if I'm a Muslim, does that change anything?  Does your belief of me being a Muslim secure you a place in Heaven?  Is it all of you that know virtually all verses in the Bible, quote Bible offhand and shout Lord, Lord, the loudest that will see the Kingdom of God?  You see, there are more pressing issues for you face as a Christian, my friend, rather than attach a religion to me. 

mrpataki:

Wow even the devil pulled the greatest stunt ever, making people to believe that he does not exist. You tried to pull that stunt with me, but I can see in between the lines.

Are you sure?


Asalamualaikum, my brethren!

@bari_kade,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the Saudi Arabia article, by the way. And thanks for being gentlemanly too, so far.

God bless.

gbade. x:

@goodguy:

to simply answer this question, i'll take a verse from the Bible:

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one cometh to the Father except through me"

That's in John 14:6.  And I've also asked previously, where does this leave those that died before Christ?  Or those that did not get convinced about the Gospel?  Someone created a topic on that, but no one has given any answers so far.

gbade. x:

like i once said, the differences in religions worldwide is in their doctrines and tenets. the fact that 2 or more religions have similar doctrines dosn't negate the differences

Sure.  And the fact that they both have different tenets and doctrines doesn't negate the fact that they have the same beliefs.  They are only aiming at the same thing, through different means.

gbade. x:

In order for this discussion to go smoothly, i believe clarifications have to be made about both religions i.e : Christianity and Islam.

SALVATION

Christianity
A free gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) to the person who trusts in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. He is our mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). No works are sufficient in any way to merit salvation since our works are all unacceptable to God (Isaiah 64:6).

Islam
Forgiveness of sins is obtained by Allah's grace without a mediator. The Muslim must believe Allah exists, believe in the fundamental doctrines of Islam, believe that Muhammad is his prophet, and follow the commands of Allah given in the Koran.

Have you ever wondered if God required things of us in different ways?  That is, for the followers of Christ, the applicable one is the Bible verse you provided, and for the followers of Muhammad, they really don't need all that. .  ?  Have you ever wondered what God really could be up to?  Have you ever wondered if He's just trying to prove a point?  Hey, I'm just wondering myself.

gbade. x:

ATONEMENT

Christianity
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) whereby His blood becomes the sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2) from the sinner when the sinner receives (John 1:12), by faith (Rom. 5:1), the work of Christ on the cross.

Islam
There is no atonement work in Islam other than a sincere confession of sin and repentance by the sinner.

Man

Ditto.

gbade. x:

Christianity
Made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26). This does not mean that God has a body, but that man is made like God in abilities (reason, faith, love, etc.).

Islam
Not made in the image of God (42:11). Man is made out of the dust of the earth (23:12) and Allah breathed life into man (32:9; 15:29).

The last two are enough evidence that both religions believe in the same thing.  And concerning the first one, it has only buttressed my point further that they see things differently.

gbade. x:

This are just a few of the ones i felt were most important to our discussion.

Now we can trash out issues more appropiately. Enjoy

Thanks for your input.  Really appreciated.  Anyway, all I have gathered so far, from this post of yours and the input of others just shows that your reason for believing Muslims worship Idols is because of the varying doctrines.  But should be doctrines be a basis for such assertions in the first place?

The whole thing is more like:


Jesus did this, Mohammad did that
Jesus did those, Muhammad did these
Jesus did not do this, Muhammad did that
Muhammad did not do this, Jesus did that

So therefore, followers of these two People worship different Gods.  [More like a Logical analysis]

But should it be so?  Is anyone here reasoning with me at all?

davidylan:

no, the main thing Jesus was trying to point out to His disciples there was simple.
The Jewish mentality of a Messiah was a glorious king coming in the mould of David to defeat their Roman enemies and become a great king.
They did not reckon with a mere baby born out of wedlock and in a manger claiming to be God Himself!

When Christ made the earlier statement, it was like a prophecy to foretell what being christian would be in this present world. Being a true christian sets u apart from others, men will hate you, ridicule you even family will be against you for your faith.
He was not talking about a realistic sword there but a hypothetical one.

It was a warning the early apostles learned very early: being christian is not a bed of roses. Paul and co went through horrors for their faith, it was not a peaceful ride, neither was it going to be a straight ticket to fame.

If truly, this is the correct interpretation of that verse, then I don't see how it connects to the question I asked. May I remind you of what led to this? You said:

"Christianity is not about "seeking peace" with muslims, it is about the salvation of the soul!".

And I asked you how possible it is to save a soul, without seeking peace with your target. Or will you save a soul with violence?

Then you replied with the John 10:34 quote. I asked you to explain, and what I have up there is what you delivered. Now please tell me, how does your explanation above link with "Christianity, not seeking peace"? Because obviously, the fact that Jesus prohibited revenge among his followers alone shows that he came to establish peace on earth. I'm sure even bari_kade will agree with me on this one.

davidylan:

It is the very same kind of question the serpent used to decieve Eve in the garden. What would have been your response to this saying:

Mathew 10: 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household

Please ask Jesus that your earlier "contradicting" question.

That verse was in the passage read in church 2 weeks ago. I wanted to start a thread on that to know what Jesus actually meant, but I forgot. The way you have used it here in response to my question makes me believe you've quoted that verse completely out of context.

Because if we are to analyze it, considering the question I asked, and how you offered it as a response, you're implying that Jesus did not come to establish peace among mankind, as earlier agreed between bari_kade and I on the previous page. Is that it?

David, thanks for the Bible verse . . I knew you had a bit of a nice character afterall.


Though I still don't think too much of studying harms the body in anyway. As a matter of fact, it helps you grow mentally! The more you study, the better for you!

davidylan:

Oh and the neelsel and I thread? You conveniently forgot to mention that we reconciled later on eh!

She's a smart lady. She achieved her aim, got satisfied, and it cost her absolutely nothing to apologize. But you on the other hand, became subject to the same verse that you quoted against her.

And why should I be shocked that mukina2 is chatting with you? I know her to be an easygoing person who doesn't hold grudges against people. Anyway, that's not the issue now. To avoid derailing this thread further, I'll only respond to the part of your post that is relevant to the topic.

davidylan:

Christianity is not about "seeking peace" with muslims, it is about the salvation of the soul!

How contradicting. How do you expect to save a soul without first seeking peace with the person?

By the way, please carry all these your "idiot", "ignorant" and whatnot out of these thread. bari_kade and I have been having a civil conversation so far without the use of words like these to refer to ourselves. I knew your coming to this thread will change the whole story, Mr. "good Christian".

bari_kade:

However, believers in Christ would not confess a deity that is antithetical to holiness and righteouness as being the very same God who sent His Son for our salvation.

That is where everyone misses the point! The Deity is not antithetical to holiness and righteousness, but the extremists only make it appear that way.

See these people o!

mrpataki:

@ Alfa goodguy,
Another of your misguided thought patterns again. What makes you think speaking the "supposed" truth of yours qualifies you for entrance into the Kingdom of God It is not by what you say, but by how you have lived your life!

I know that. I actually thought about that post when I left the PC, but it was too late to modify it. I knew someone was going to quote me before I get back.

mrpataki:

If you don't know, too much of studying is a weariness to the flesh!

Na lie! Dr. T. L. Osborn once said, "When you stop learning, you start dying". And Abraham Lincoln added that "When you stop learning, you're old, whether at 20 or at 80".

mrpataki:

I have a question for you, Do Muslims and Christians serve the same God?

Sure.

If Christians and Muslims honestly believe they serve different Gods, here's a typical conversation that will normally ensue between them:


Christian: Hey, how are you doing?

Muslim: Not bad.

Christian: Do you know Jesus is the son of God?

Muslim: Which God is that?

Christian: The Christian God of course.

Muslim: Oh. . that's cool.

Christian: Yeah it is.

Muslim: But our own God doesn't have a son.

Christian: Really? Aww. . Too bad.

Muslim: Not to worry though, He's got a prophet that mediates between us and Him.

Christian: Oh. . what's his name?

Muslim: His name is Muhammad (S.A.W)

Christian: That's a nice name.

Muslim: Yeah it is.

Christian: Pal, I have to go now. It was nice chatting with you. See you some other time.

Muslim: Alright buddy. Have a nice day!

Christian: You too.

Muslim: Bye!

Christian: Bye!


But for the fact that they both believe that they serve the same God, here's a typical conversation that will normally ensue between them:


Christian: Jesus is God.

Muslim: That's a lie! Prove it!

Christian: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God (John 1:1).

Muslim: That's very wrong. That's blasphemy! How dare you equate a mere mortal with God? Infact, your Bible is so full of frauds and lies!

Christian: Are you so blind that you cannot comprehend simple truths?

Muslim: What truths? Those are nothing but lies. How possible is it for 2 persons to be the same and still refer to one another as Son and Father?

Christian: You are either simply ignorant or you have a chronic inability to comprehend objective arguments.

Muslim: Me, ignorant? I don't blame you. You lack common sense, retard!

Christian: Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him (Proverbs 26:4).

Muslim: Idiot, you just answered me. That makes you a fool as well!

Christian: Father forgive them, for they know not what they say.

Muslim: After calling me a fool? Good Christian indeed. Hypocrite!



. . . and the fight conversation continues.


So you see, the fact that both are arguing on that issue shows that they both believe in the same God, but each wants the other to see God from their own perspective. That is, one understands the concept of trinity and knows for sure that God has a son, but the other simply finds such notion ridiculous because he doesn't know.

Get my drift?

bari_kade:

Four issues here:

1. If I investigate the claims of any 'prophet' or religion, questions must be asked - and that is precisely why my question was: what crime did Christians and Jews commit to have merited Muhammad's hatred? If Christians use the violence in Muhammad's career to refute his claims of prophethood, one would expect that Muslim apologists themselves offer sound and sane reasons for any misconceptions to that.

2. When your exercise is focused on wars in the Bible, you fail to clearly delineate between the OT and NT; and as Christians we have often challenged this misconception that the OT wars be blamed on Christianity rather than seeking to understand the basis of Judaism. My very first entry to this thread quoted a line in which you acknowledged Jesus Christ came in peace. Why you think Christians are as bellicose as Muslims simply begs the question.

3. It is not only Christians who are concerned about the spate of violence from the Muslim camp - and the cartoons that sparked Muslim riots in the recent past is just one testimony to the point. The basic question on everyone's lips has been: "why is Islam so violent?" Rather than seek dialogue, Muslims themselves have responded with belligerence, threats to blow up the West (as everything 'western' is Christian in the typical Muslim mindset), more threats to annihilate Israel, and vitriolic blasphemies against the Christian faith. In the face of these, many more people of various faiths and political positions are questioning the violent nature of Islam; so it is not only Christians who are talking about these issues [you might as well want to see this youtube clip offered by babyosis to the point].

4. The violence in Islam is not the only issue that is being debated by Christians. There are many more issues that border on the lifestyle of Muhammad - such as his admission to being a sinner needing to repent seventy times a day; his moral life on women and sex; and his denials of the teaching of Christ. Even when Muhammad's violence is not mentioned, how have Muslims responded to any questioning of these other issues?

These and more are the reasons why I feel up until now you haven't really taken the time to even understand the position of Christians debating issues with Muslims.

Thank you very much for elaborating on this. Really appreciated. Now I see your point.

Nonetheless, I still feel you are using the acts of the extremists to castigate Islam as a whole. Not all Muslims are the same. Not all Muslims are violent. While you are probably using the acts of the Iraqis and perhaps, our own Northerners here to view Islam as a religion of Violence, I, on the other hand, am using the peaceful nature of the Muslims where I reside to view Islam. Humans will always be humans, religion or no religion. Afterall, Saudi Arabia that is predominantly a Muslim nation does not cause unnecessary havoc the way the Iraqis and other Muslim nations do. There are in fact so many Muslims that are also seeking peace with the Christians. Even right now as I type, there's a Muslim guy beside me reading all these, and does not like the broad generalization on the way Islam is being depicted. Hope you see where I'm driving at?

bari_kade:

Is it only on Nairaland that Christians have refuted the claims of Muhammad and rejected him as a prophet? Again, you really are not demonstrating a full picture of how Islam portrays Christians and Jews. It is clear that mukina[/b]2's one-line statement speaks volumes without sentiments; and until you actually have studied Islam, you will continue to miss the point.

[b]Mukina2 does not like the way she's being attacked here on Nairaland. We chat on messenger, and I know how she really feels about this whole issue. There are times she created topics and even had to beg to the Christians not to mess up her thread. One of such threads even had to be locked by the Admin when he saw that things were getting out of hand.

bari_kade:

It's remarkable that you'd even mention that Muslims "don't mind killing a fellow human" - and for what? That sounds to me like a choice between a sandwich and a burger - one doesn't mind sometimes between the two. Please, goodguy, we really mind about life, and that's why we celebrate it. It is not a matter to be treated in such cavalier fashion - and Jesus Christ Himself takes the issue seriously:

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service" - John 16:2.

Again, it's just the extremists.

bari_kade:

When Jesus categorically stated in John 14:6 that He is the Way and you are questioning that as a Christian, I'll leave you answerable to Him alone.

I'm not questioning Him. I'm only seeking to know if there's more to that statement than the way it is usually interpreted, since it doesn't seem to favour the whole of mankind. We can discuss it here if you don't mind.

bari_kade:

This is one more confirmation that you really do not understand Islam. This neutrality you propose does not exist in reality in the Muslim world.

It does actually exist in the Muslim world, maybe not among the extremists though. I'll be showing you what I mean in my subsequent postings.

bari_kade:

First, I don't see any reason why a convert would have to accept and abide by the teachings of Christianity if we don't know God enough to know what He accepts or disapproves. This is quite a convoluted position to assume; and I'm not inclined to take that norminal position as a Christian.

Second, the Christian faith is soundly based on what the Word teaches and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. How many times do we read in Scripture about the deep conviction of knowing God through His Spirit? See a few -

John 7:17 - "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

John 8:32 - "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 10:5 - And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 12:50 - "And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."

Rom. 8:16 - "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"

I John 2:21 - "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth."

How then can anyone as a Christian claim that we don't know enough of God to know what He accepts?

We know the things God accepts and disapproves, but do we know ALL? That's what I'm trying to point out. Please don't misunderstand me. You can't tell me there are certain things about God that you have not questioned in your mind. . that alone shows that no human can completely comprehend God.

bari_kade:

Your frequent use of perhaps says two things (and I'm not trying to be accusative): (a) you either are trying to euphemise what you might already know for a certainty; (b) you're accusing God of issues that define the lost destiny of billions of souls.

It's the former actually, not that I totally know for a certainty though.

bari_kade:

Muhammad clearly denied the claims of Christ - and that is not an issue that can be settled on any "perhaps".

If he had known better, he wouldn't have denied Jesus' claims.

bari_kade:

Right. . . and then what? I guess we just simply recognize your point in limbo and stop telling the truth about Christ - the very thing Muslims have always wanted!

That's not my point. Tell the truth about Jesus, but those that are not convinced should not be threatened with the talk of eternal condemnation. I don't believe any sane person that really knows the truth will deny it outrightly. Those that do not know the truth are those that are not convinced, not those that just don't want to believe. Those that get convinced are those that eventually turn to Christianity.

Have you ever wondered why it's usually much easier to convert a Muslim just by preaching, than converting an atheist by mere words of the mouth? That's because a Muslim already knows that there's a God, but just did not understand certain things about him prior to that moment. A Muslim has always seen God differently, and now that he/she has now understood and accepted other parts of Him, it will be easier to subscribe to the Christian faith.

davidylan:

@ Bari_kade
If you will notice, it is not everyone that claims to be a "christiann" that is really one! Of such Apostle Paul already spoke about:

2 Timothy 3: 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

When deluded "christians" begin to equate the ALMIGHTY God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the idol that is Allah of the quran, then you know that indeed the end is here! From such turn aside, it is not advisable to cast your pearls before swine!

Ah! David, my boy. I've been expecting you, what took you so long? And where's our friend, mrpataki?

Really, you know why I like you? You always locate those Bible verses that directly refer to your person. The other day neesel created a thread for just the two of you, you were so quick to respond with Proverbs 26:4, while still answering her thereafter. At the end of the day, you became subject to the very verse you were quoting for someone else. So my boy, run along and don't mess up this thread with your Bible-thumping hypocrisy.

mrpataki:

Alfa goodguy,

Suddenly, I've become an Alfa. How interesting! If speaking the truth is what qualifies me to be an Alfa, perhaps, only Alfas will see the kingdom of God!

mrpataki:

I can see that you really need sit down and learn.

I'm sitting already. Come and educate me, the Erudite one!

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

Please don't try to amuse me with this simplistic view. Was it only a matter of differing views on certain issues that you read in both the Bible and the Qur'an? So, what are we to do with these "differing views" - pretend that they really don't matter at the end of the day? Sorry but I'm not that politically correct to deny the claims of Christ.

Jesus Christ said He is the Son of God, and that is the basis of our salvation. Muhammad denounces that confession and threatens Christians not to confess the divine sonship of Jesus. On the one hand, Jesus' divine Sonship is the confession that saves and qualifies for heaven; while on the other, Muhammad regarded that confession as the qualification for hell.

You and I, at least, know that there's a great gulf between heaven and hell; are we then to treat these matters as merely "differing views"?? I'm not just about ready to deny the Lordship of my Saviour.

I know Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Every true Christian knows and accepts that. But do the Muslims know? I know they've been told and preached to, but are they convinced? We have to first of all understand that these people do not even know, talkless of accepting. . hence, their denial. It's one thing for me to know something as the truth and deny outrightly. It's another for me to be oblivious of it, and then deny based on my ignorance. I don't believe a merciful God will punish me for the latter.

bari_kade:

I don't remember ruling them out - do I need to be held accountable for what you didn't read as "ruled out" in my post?

But you didn't mention them. That spells 'B I A S' to me.

bari_kade:

Please go back and read my post: I never hinted that it is possible for the two different religions to have the same views. So, what's your point?

My point is that we should not attack another religion based on what they fail to see and accept from our own side. Because clearly, they we do not also accept so many things from their side.

bari_kade:

Aiight. And that proves what. . .??

This. . . :

goodguy:

. . . those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

bari_kade:

Right, people see and worship God in different ways - even when Muhammad's view of Jesus was a misconception, as you acknowledged earlier. I get you.

This one has been settled, I believe?

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

I have not deliberately chosen to misrepresent you. Several times I asked you questions, beginning with what your motive was. Your responses were treated in my rejoinders; and where you were not happy with the misleading title, you had to change it.

I had to change the title because you were using it to reason out my so-called motive that you didn't even understand.

bari_kade:

Okay, now the title has been changed yet again. Was it too much for anyone to ask what your motive was in the first place? If you had issues from a previous thread, was anything wrong with my asking questions in this one?

I changed the title just once. What's with the "yet again"?

bari_kade:

I'm not surprised you rather came to this inference, even though I haven't accused you of anything.

You didn't have to spell it out for me to know. Different people think differently, you know.

bari_kade:

Following the development of your original post, I simply wanted to know if you were more concerned about the topic or you had something else in mind! You confirmed that your quest was not about "Holy Wars In The Bible" - which was the original topic. If anyone was to proffer answers to the topic, what would you have made of them?

I expect anyone to read the note that expounds any topic before commenting on the topic at all. You just don't look at the title of a thread and assume to know what the poster talking about.

bari_kade:

Not once have I sought to deviate from the topic;

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough. I raised this topic to find out why Christians are so quick to point out acts of war in the Quran, and use that to attack them, accusing their Allah/Mohammad of being violent, when clearly, even in our own Bible, there were enough records of God supporting his people to go fight wars. Get it?

bari_kade:

and that's why I offered another question about why Muhammad hated Christians and Jews so much. At least, mukina2 offered an answer as a Muslim; and I acknowledged it with thanks without trying to attack her. I hope you saw all that?

Now, this is the deviation I'm talking about. It's just a bit relevant to the topic - not the issue I raised to be discussed at all.

bari_kade:

So, which is it - the newly re-edited topic, or why Christians castigate Muslims on the violence purported in Muhammad's career? Nothing inferred here; I just want clear answers so that, at least, I don't fall foul of dealing with the topic when in fact you might have another issue on mind.

I've provided the answer to that already.

bari_kade:

Ahh - there is the motive! Did I not state something similar in one of my earlier responses? see again:

I never attacked your motive, and now that you've stated it, I also reminded you that my motives are for peaceful ends.

And may I remind you that such peaceful ends that we both seek will never be established if we continually attack other people's religion.

bari_kade:

And I still believe that mukina2 sincerely stated the obvious without drab or sentimentality.

I believe she stated that due to what she has been experiencing from the hands of the Christians here on Nairaland, who are ever ready to attack her religion. I still believe she was just being sentimental.

bari_kade:

It's easy to sit down over the net and make such claims.

It's easy to sit down over the net and make any claims, just as mukina2 did.

bari_kade:

Let's just be practical: goodguy, are you sure if you took your persuasions into Saudi Arabia declaring that that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, they would applaud you? There are more Muslims who are ready to denounce you and whatever you say as a Christian in typically Islamic cultures;

Perhaps, Nigerian Muslims are the sensible ones? Okay seriously, I think you're missing the point. These Saudi Arabians believe in the same God that we believe in, but may never accept some Christian claims. They don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, you don't believe Muhammad is a messenger of God. So you see? It's all about what they see that is being attached to the God we both serve. They so much believe in this God and probably love him to bits, that they don't mind killing a fellow human for saying something offensive about Him. On the other hand, Jesus admonished us to take things easy and allow God do his thing - Something Muhammad probably never did. We are not in the position to fight for him -- this is what the Muslims fail to realise. Perhaps, if we could educate and admonish one another on this, rather than attack ourselves, this world will be a much more better place for both Christians and Muslims.

bari_kade:

so making inference about Islam from merely the feelings of friends does not reflect reality.

Making inference about Islam merely from the feelings of a Senegalese or some Saudi Arabians does not reflect reality either.

bari_kade:

I only asked the question: "what crimes have Christians and Jews committed to merit Muhammad's hatred so much?" Expanding this: why are Christians and Jews not free to practice their faiths in Muslim-dominant societies such as Christians provide Muslims in theirs?

Just like the Christians, they don't want their people to convert to another religion. They believe theirs is the only way.-- (But is there really an "only way"? I know Jesus said something concerning that in John 14:6, but where does that leave those that died before Him, and those that never heard of Him, or did not get convinced about the Gospel? Don't you think there's more to that statement than the way we normally interprete it? That's another topic also on its own anyway). -- And they know that allowing Christians to practise their faiths among them will draw people away from Islam. Christians naturally have this tendency to convince others to come into their religion because of their peaceful nature, and the Muslims do acknowledge this.

bari_kade:

So, how do we live peacefully with misconception when the party propagating it is demanding that your views should be erased and his own misconception becomes your new religion? You see, this is exactly why I have been seeking to take this topic by offering questions rather than stating prejudices.

Each to his own. As far as both serve the same God, there really isn't any need to push beliefs down the other's throat. And when one eventually converts into another religion, he/she has to accept the doctrines and and abide by teachings of that religion. We don't know God enough to know the all things He accepts, and those He does not. Our Bible tells us His ways are mysterious. That's why he's God.

bari_kade:

It depends on which prophets he regarded in the Bible. Have you noticed that he never mentioned any of the Biblical prophets who confirmed the deity of Jesus Christ, such as Isaiah, Zechariah and Micah? Please check again and let's compare notes on that. Then, we can then begin to understand why Muhammad never had any tolerance for any Christian believing what the Bible states. I'll leave it there for now until we can settle these pressing matters.

And have you wondered why? Perhaps he didn't believe them. Perhaps, he found it ridiculous and hard to accept that any man that could have been seen and touched by other mortals should be equated with the Almighty? Perhaps, he found it hard to understand the concept of trinity? Or perhaps, God deliberately chose not to reveal certain secrets to him? Have you ever wondered if God is just trying to prove a point? Have you ever wondered why God does and allows certain things? By the way, I'm just wondering myself. . God is Great!

Okay.

Indeed.

Omo, I never get the books o! It's been over a month now since I ordered for them.

bari_kade:

Perhaps you could oblige me a few more questions: Is the God in the Bible (encompassing Christianity and Judaism) and the Allah or your ALLAH[b]U[/b] in the Qur'an the same Being? A few observations:

1. Jesus Christ in the NT urges Christians to love their enemies;
Muhammad in the Qur'an urges Muslims to ambush and slay them!

2. Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Son of God and 'God' as His Father;
Muhammad categorically denied that claim in the Qur'an.

3. Jesus Christ confirmed that He died and rose again for salvation of people;
Muhammad denied the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ in the Qur'an.

4. Jesus Christ declared Himself as the Alpha and Omega in Revelation;
Muhammad qualifies Jesus as no more than a slave to Allah in the Qur'an.

5. Jesus Christ confirmed that He was the One Moses wrote about in the Law;
Muhammad denied this and appointed himself as the one Moses wrote about.

So, your own reason for believing that Muslims worship a different God is due to the fact that Jesus and Muhammad had differing views on certain issues? Is that it?

Why have you ruled out these parts of both religions?

1. Both religions beleive there's ONE supreme God that created Heaven and Earth.
2. Both religions believe there's ONE supreme God that is merciful and loving.
3. Both religions believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell.

. . . and so on.

Obviously, these are two different religions. You cannot expect two different religions to have the same views on all issues. It just isn't possible. Now let's take a look at Yoruba traditions. There are different gods served in Yorubaland. They probably don't even believe in Jesus, even though Ifa worshippers actually regard Jesus. There's a line in one of their incantations that refers to the son of the Virgin Mary and all that. . and they usually seek his help in spiritual matters. But then, those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

So as we can see, different people see and worship God in different ways, and this is exactly what I mean (okay, gbade. x?).

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

It doesn't seem that you had an amicable motive for this topic ab initio. First it was something about the topic; then it was not the topic; and now, because the topic itself was misleading, it has become "the note expounding the topic itself".

Why have you deliberately chosen to misinterprete me?  Are you trying to ridicule me by doing this?  Please ask me to explain myself before twisting my posts next time.

I started this topic based on the reply I got from the other thread. .  the title was misleading, I agree.  But I expect anyone to understand what this thread is all about from the post that expounded the topic itself.  Unless you didn't read the whole post, then I see no reason for all these "analysis" of my motive.  The new title of this thread says, "God Supported Holy Wars In The Bible".   And in the first paragraph of my post, I said this:

goodguy: Why then are we Christians so quick to castigate the Muslims based on some Quranic verses that narrate how Holy wars were fought in the times of Muhammad?

So I don't know why all these questions about my motive are arising.  I asked someone to explain to me the reason, but no one has done that so far.  Rather, you've deviated from the topic and twisted things to make me look like I'm painting Christianity black, and making Islam appear like the only true religion.  That is not my motive, if that's what you're thinking, Sir.  And if no one can explain to me why Christians castigate Muslims on that basis, then I see no reason for all these "Your Allah/Muhammad is violent" attacks. And that's why my motive is to call off all these cat and dog fights between Christians and Muslims worldwide, starting from Nairaland. (By the way, are you aware that Nostradamus prophesied that the third world war will be a fight between Christians and Muslims, and that it's going to be bloodier than the first and second world wars? Whether it's true or not is not the issue now. Let's just strive to prevent any such occurence from happening. Anyway, that's another topic on its own).

So, do you now care enough to attend to my enquiries, or are you still wondering what my motive really is?

bari_kade:

. . .you're again not handling issues free from bias. I believe that mukina2 was stating the obvious as a Muslim (and my response to hers should demonstrate that I have no bones to pick with her). She was not throwing words wildly into the air, for what she stated is clearly a tenet of Islam. My question there was as to if her response helped your enquiry and your stated aim/motive? Muslims are not confused as to who the Qur'an refers to as infidels, so it really begs the proposal that we attempt a redefinition of what Muhammad meant by the term.

Perhaps, you're the one not handling issues free from bias.  I still believe mukina2's response was sentimental, because I live around Muslims, and have Muslims friends that will never utter such despicable statements.  Muslims I know personally all believe that Christians serve the same God that they serve.  They do not regard Christians as infidels, as mukina2 has made us believe, and as such, her own words should not be taken as the final say.

bari_kade:

It's even more quizzical that you and ishmael take the view that Christians and Muslims worship the same God! That misconception has been severally thrashed in other threads, and you'd only need to calmly gather your facts before pushing such an idea.

It's even far more quizzical that you and some other 'Christians' believe that Muslims worship idols!  That misconception has so much been promoted on this forum, that some peeps don't even know what to believe anymore.  Such misconceptions should be eradicated!

bari_kade:

May I ask again: what crime have Christians and Jews committed to merit Muhammad's unbridled hatred against them, especially when you admit that Jesus Christ came to preach peace?

Did Muhammad actually hate Christians?  Didn't Muhammad even regard Jesus Christ as a prophet, even though that's a misconception on its own?  Didn't Muhammad regard prophets in the Bible?  How exactly did he hate the Christians?

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

2,  . . clarification on what - the topic, or something else?

Not the topic. .  but the note expounding the topic itself.

bari_kade:

So, I take it that if your quest is not about "Holy Wars In The Bible", your topic is misleading?

Yeah, sorry about that.  I wanted to modify it last night, but NEPA messed up.  I hope the new title is better now?

bari_kade:

what crime did Christians and Jews commit for Muhammad to have hated them so much?

I with Ishmael on this.  Is there a quote in the Quran that indicates that Muhammad hated Christians and Jews?  I think we really do need a clear explanation on who Muhammad referred to as "Infidels".

And I believe mukina2's response is plain sentimental.