₦airaland Forum

all4naija: Nature's imperfection like living things die, disasters, hate,evils,etc. Why did omniscient nature of God allow them if it knew them in advance? Or else there is nothing omniscient nature in this.

non of the things you have said are imperfections. they are merely experiences of your own choosing based on your free will..
and as far as God stopping them that again automatically violates your freewill to experiece whatever you choose to experience consciously or unconsciously..

you are at liberty to choose to hate or love another.. you are at liberty to choose any diseases..

all4naija: It means the omniscient nature fails to recognize nature's imperfections. Huh!

what imperfections. name them.. who says there are any imperfections. there are no imperfections in the universe

InesQor:

I am saying, what if God has a sort of "formula" that dependent on your freewill choice, will give an end result? This too is a sort of omniscience.

Besides being an engineer, I am a computer programmer and I perfectly understand this. I create an array of options and I program it thus: if the user does this, then do this. Otherwise if the user does this, do that. Otherwise... etc. Basically, I believe God's omniscience has a wide range of eventualities, and your freewill decides how things end.

in a sense that is what it is.. thats why i gave that CD-ROM analogy earlier.. The game of the universe like the game on the CD-Rom has a corresponding effect for every choice..but unlike the CD-Rom the choices and its coressponding effects of the game of the universe is infinite..and your freewill is to choose from this array of infinite options

wiegraf: But it has to be so to support his omniscience. The outcome cannot be changed.

God doesnt have to do anything to support his omniscience. he already is.. having to do anything to support it means he is not..and that is not possible..and again the outcome cannot be changed violates freewill.. the outcome can always and is always changing..it doesnt violate freewill or omniscient..

Whoever wins has to have a bigger 'will to win', in your speak, they have no choice in the matter.

lol how? again having no say violates their freewill. it seems like it is a dichotomy but it really is not..

As for the bolded, exactly. But I'm not the one making the rules, whoever ascertains omniscience is even possible is the one that is. The script must be followed.

the infinite creator being omniscient is a fact

musKeeto: That's the point. There's no freewill to be violated. You're simply acting out what God already knows. If you can't understand this, well let's leave it at that. To each, his own.

God knowing does still not stop you from exercising your freewill..What God already knows is all there is..All there is and ever was is God..all there is, is infinite and you have been given the freewill to choose and act out your choices from this boundless limitless "entity" of all there is..

yes you are acting out a script that God already knows but this script is limitless and you have the liberty to choose whatever script you want to act out and experience..That is what your free will is.

he knows your every move because he is everywhere and in everything( he is actually everything) but you are still making the choices( ultimately you could say he is making the choices because he is everything that ever exists but i understand this is not the topic we are on)..

wiegraf: It does, because ultimately no one has any say in the matter. Regardless of what every single agent does or wills, tottenham will win.

I thought it was today sef.

if it was like that then why should Liverpool even bother to play in the first place..
totenham only wins if they have a will to win bigger than that of Liverpool. Liverpool wins if they have a will to win bigger than that totenham. God is not making the choices for either one of them..

musKeeto: I believe the argument is that omniscience covers both process and outcome.
It doesn't matter how many routes lead to the market. God knows WHAT MARKET you''ll end up at and THE EXACT ROUTE you'll take.

Na wa....

so what exactly is your point. does God knowing exactly what market you end up at change your freewill to choose what market you prefer to be at?.. does it violate your free will?..

Logicboy03: Fail. Just fail.

You cant even tell the difference between foreknowledge and prediction.


I give up on your case. This discussion is way over your head.

lol look who is saying the argument is over someone's head.. I have resorted to one liners because I realized like you don't really understand the concept of omniscient and free will as relates to a deity or the infinite creator..

An omniscient creator predicting surely that tottenham wins tomorow automatically and outrightly violates the freewill of not only Liverpool but totenham as well ..

God knows the outcome but you are making the outcome . This is what I need you to wrap your mind around. You seem not to think deep..

Your statement is akin to someone saying SURELY I WILL BE GOD..

Deep Sight: "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass over my head". . . . . who said this?



So his will is not the same as the will of God, as I argued to you years ago.

# Trinity Debunked.

https://www.nairaland.com/344297/dr-david-sheds-some-light/1#4845520

i am not a christian but i dont see how going by jesus statements debunks the trinity.. what trinity?..the christian trinity? becuase God the father son and holy spirit is correct Christians just have a warped understanding of it

Logicboy03: Omniscience doesnt work with probability or probable futures


Liverpool Vs. Tottenham tommorow
a) Tottenham has 50% probability of winnning because one team has to win between the two good teams 50-50
b) Tottenham will win surely

omniscience applies to only b) because a) implies that you dont know the result of the match but only the probablility. Omniscience requires knowledge of everything.

probable is non-existent with omniscience

your argument again is flawed.what you have there has more to do with a prediction than anything to do with being omniscient.. are you saying anyone who predicts that tottenham surely wins and comes to pass should be crowned as being omniscient?..

i have told you that God is not in the business of predictions.. God simply knows all things because he is in all things and created all things..he created you for a purpose and thus gave you a destiny. but he also gave you free will.. destiny and free will co-exist but they are not the same thing..

Logicboy03: Omnscience can only exist where the future is set in stone.

knowing the outcome does not necessarily mean the future is set in stone...there are an infinite probable futures..

Logicboy03: Good. If the future is not set in stone, your omniscient God does not exist

i said YOUR future is not set in stone.. BTW how did you get to that conclusion

Logicboy03:

Yes, an omniscient beings knowledge could be infinite but it makes no difference. We are finite beings on a finite planet- knowing the future means that everything is predetermined. You wouldnt know the future fore certain if the future isnt set in stone. There are no choices with omniscience

well i will say everything is predetermined infinitely..firstly you have to know that time does not exist..the past and future really does not exist. everything is happening NOW..BUT since you live in the illusion of time lets go with the flow..

Your future is not set in stone.. that is not true. if this was true so called psychics and fortune tellers will be right 100 percent all the time..your past creates your present and your present will create your probable future.. but you are at liberty to change your probable future at any time..

God being omniscience has nothing do with your choices..He is not predicting your future.

Logicboy03: 1) There is no infinite choice. Your life is finite and God knows all the paths you will take and the ones you wont

lol do you really believe there are no infinite choices? btw God knowing all the paths and the ones you wont does not mean that you have no choices or that she is choosing it for you..you are playing out a script and in this script you have the choice to be, do and create anything you wish..you could say you are the very script..

2) Regarding the CD-Rom analogy, The CPU knows all the possible finite choices but doesn't know which one you will take- it is your choice that can get you to the end of the game

well in our case God knows the possible infinite choices and knows which one you will take..why because he/she/it is you and also all things.. the CD-ROM analogy wasnt to demonstrate God's infinite or finite ability. i sought to show you that in many ways, life/the universe is like a CD-ROM.(except the universe is infinite)..like the CD-ROM the choices and it corresponding natural consequences/effects already exist as infinite possibilities.. All the possibilities exist and have already occurred. And you get to choose which one to experience. that is your free will..

3) God is much more than the CPU because he also knows the "choice" you will make. Unfortunately, your choice is an illusion because you cant deviate from the omniscient beings knowledge

Again yes he is much more than the CPU or the CD-ROM.. He is also the creator of the CD-Rom/life.. and as the creator he knows all the possible beginnings and endings. again why? well because he is the damn creator..

at bolded that is if his knowledge was finite..understand that the omniscient knowledge is not finite but infinite..but i also understand what but if you meant your choice being an illusion because of the threat of retribution or punishment for deviating from laid down commands then yes.. but the truth is there is no such thing as punishment or retribution..

Ignore the typos. On cell phone. I actually like this topic. Will get home soon and will add some more stuff

Logicboy03: God knows everything- God is omniscient
God knows everything- God knows the future
God knows that tommorrow Mr, A will eat chocolate ice-cream from an ice cream vendor

Analysing what then happens the next day;

-Mr A goes to the ice-cream vendor ponders what flavour to eat bewteen vanilla, lemon and chocolate. He buys chocolate ice-cream
a) MR A. could not have chosen vanilla flavour because God would have been wrong and therefore God didnt know the future and therefore God is no longer omniscient
b) MR A. actually did not "choose" chocolate flavour. His choice was an illusion. All he did was follow God's foreseen path. Mr A had no freewill in deciding his ice-cream. Choice doesnt exist where there is no alternative

oh ok I see your point but I'm afraid it is flawed due to lack of understanding of the very thing you set out to disprove.. God being omniscient in no way equal to you having no freedom to choose and act as you wish..

If choice does not exist where there is no alternative then your argument will stand true if that was the case .. Fortunately that is not the case.. The truth is there are other alternate choices.. in fact there is an infinite amount of choices.


Now one of the problems with your argument is that you are equating omniscient with prediction... You are assuming because God knows everything he is thus going to predict your future.. I am afraid that's is not the truth.. if God was in the business of predicting your future then where will the concept of free will stand?.

Ok let's try this with a series of statements and then questions so hopefully you will be able to understand how the concept of an omniscient creator violates not the concept of free will..

First you have understand that anything that everything that has happened, will happen and is already happening.. every possibility exist as facts. As completed event. There is nothing new understand the sun..

I am going to put this in terms to which you can better relate. See if this helps. Have you ever watched children use a CD-ROM to play a computerized video game? If you have, have you ever asked yourself how the computer knows how to respond to every move the child makes with the joystick?( any parent not computer or technology savy have probably wondered about this ) .. everything is all on the disc. The computer knows how to respond to every move the child makes because every possible move has already been placed on the disc, along with its appropriate response..

Now if you would see God as the Cd- ROM.. He knows everything because all the outcomes, beginning and endings already exist as infinite possibilities.. however, how and what you choose is up to you.. your free will is not violated either way..

I haven't really been following this thread much but I see no reason why freewill and omniscient cannot coexist .. @logicboy any particular reason why you hold that view ?

italo: Firstly, your post is way-off the topic of discussion. Even a dunce can see that...not to talk of a "great genius."

its ok god brother if that is the only answer you could conjure... did better than i presumed..

italo: Daughter of God, why don't you fear God, forget argument and accept the truth?

God hates any sex that is outside of marriage...whatever you call it. But you and Okeyz say its okay for two unmarried consenting adults to have sex.

Hebrews 13:4 - "Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

Are whoremongers and their whores not unmarried consenting adults? Look at what God says about them.

Quit this shamelessness!

i think you should replace the bolded with "I" or the bible or perhaps the names of the authors and not God...you all should leave God's name out of your hate and delusions..

what and why in heavens name should you or anyone fear God..what for? what so if you dont fear, accept and obey his truth,she will throw you in hell? do you love your god becuase she threatens you with hell? you profess your love to your "god" out of fear of the repercussions if otherwise?..does this sound like an attribute of a loving God?..how lovely.. one minute you call him a loving God, the next second you are afraid of her..

some of you are so ignorant sometimes one just has to shake his head..sometimes it seems like all of your messiah's effort to save you from the ignorance was all in vain..

ijawkid: Yahweh didn't love slavery.......he only created laws to guide those who owned slaves.....imperfection of man is what brought about slavery........when God created adam and eve his intentions were not for them to give birth to slavery and slaves........and also Yahweh hasn't changed....when the end comes which ofcus is imminent all those who do not obey his commands would be destroyed......Yahweh hasn't changed my bro

this is one of the biggest lie you have ever been told in your life.. by that statement you should agree then that your god is no where near a deity of unconditional love.. An unconditional loving, self sufficient and Omnipotent deity should lack and need nothing( this is the nature of the infinite creator).. your statement describes more of what a "devil"( if there was ever such a thing or being as the devil) will do than a God to me.. some of you read the bible and memorizes it without reason and actual understanding of the contents.. like i always say Christians are just as lost as the atheist..

And please tell me Which churches support gay rights??..mention them.......did the early christians or Christ himself espouse gay rights.??........please don't call those persons christians.........

again why shouldn't churches support gay rights? are gays less of a human because they indulge in an unnatural act..are they second class humans?.. your all inclusive messiah Jesus will be proud..you all christians make a mockery of God..

I can unequivocally tell you that all atheist sometime in there life would eventually support the practice of homosexuality and also gay rights because that is what atheism does......all it does is repudiate all that God likes.....atheists have no choice but to support what ever that is immoral........na lie I talk....??

As for you anything immoral is what you espouse....gay marraige,homosexuality,adultery,maybe bestiality too(if you haven't supported that raise up ya hand)...........

i dont think all atheist or the heterosexual ones at least, support homosexuality..supporting gay rights is not the same thing as supporting the unnatural act.. no sane man should support the act but being gay should not make you less of a human and thus deny you certain rights.. oppressing and denying gays their rights is not an act of love but evil..

well i would have. why?.. because everyone is a SON AND DAUGHTER OF GOD