₦airaland Forum

turnstoner: Ok. so babies are neither atheists nor agnostics. I agree with you. But they are not born with religion either; and between religion and agnosticism/atheism I think a baby is born closer to agnostic/atheism than religion. A tabula rasa is almost the same as the absence of belief. A baby fed with only what everybody agrees are self evident facts will end up as agnostic adult.

good point but what you fail to realize as evidenced from your contention is that " i am not asserting that all babies are born with religion".. far from it..religion is man made( more of a controlling tool) and it is not the same thing really as theism-though all religions believe in the existence of God..

lets stick to what we agree on- babies are neither atheists nor agnostics...now in regards to tabular rasa note that absence of belief is not the same thing as absence of belief in God or no belief in God..

Your posts indicate that you believe the force from the begining (the first cause god) is what you are refer to as God?

yes the first cause is God..GOD is the totality of all things existence. the everything and the nothing..

I think there is a need to give this force from begining a different name other than God because there are clear differences between the Abrahamic god (Biblical/koran god)and this god all around us that you refer to.

well God is God regardless.. people lack or limited understanding of her and forming a religion out it should not call for a change of name because of it...but yes when i talk about GOD i am not talking about the abrahamic god.. btw the so called abrahamic god YHWH really just stands for hydrogen,nitrogen and oxygen- this is your creator( but lets leave that topic for another day)

The laws of nature that we all obey are the only laws from the first force. We all learn these laws by studying science. Nothing new here.

and why do you have to learn these laws by studying science?

Logicboy03: Well said bro....well said.

Evrn though i dont agree with few of your points, you make a lot of sense

good well i am glad we agree on some points then. that's what matters most

New Alfa: it is not only your eyes that are heavy. you need to check your head really well.

I was only prempting the only reason I think you opened this thread. It is logical to ask the question of where religion comes from if we assert that nobody is born with any. But we all know that logic and the religious are like fire and water.

I already answered your question about how I came to the conclusion that all babies are born without religious beliefs. Here it is again for your heavy eyes: because every religious fool that i know today was indoctrinated and brainwashed by another person.

lol i think this topic is over your head..what is religion to do with the question really..i don't know if you're aware of this but you don't have to be religious to believe in the existence/non-existence of God.. all babies are born without religious beliefs is not the same thing as all babies are born atheist or agnostic lol..every religious fool that you know being indoctrinated and brainwashed by another does not answer the claim that all babies are born agnostics...

maybe i should remind you that atheism is not the same thing as disbelief in religion.. if your disbelief in religion is why you call yourself an atheist then you are as much of a fool as the religious people you are bashing..

Logicboy03: Dont mind striklymi......he has nothing to contribute


An agnostic is simply either

-one who says that we cant know if God exists or doesnt exist
or
-one who doesnt know about whether God exists or not
or
-one who takes a neutral position on the existence of God

babies fit in the second definition

ok i see your position now and you can make an argument.. but i will have to disagree.. my take is that babies are not born agnostics..agnostic like theism and atheism is a "belief" or a position/idea about something-in this case God.. babies have none of these..they have no beliefs.. at least not from an earthly point of view..

The 3rd definition is why many atheists are also agnostics.

hmmmm.. is it possible for one to be both an atheist and an agnostic.. btw i honestly think all so called "atheist" are really agnostics. Like most theist they dont have all the answers and as such sceptical...

One cant truly say that the tooth fairy doesn not exist but we still have a disbelief in the tooth fairy's existence.

well thats agnosticism..why i said most so called "atheist" are actually agnostics..

Disbelief is the normal and neutral position to takewhen there is no evidence.

and there is actually nothing wrong with that position. there is nothing wrong being skeptical of the things you don't understand..following blindly is stupidity. this is why most religious folks are still living in "darkness"...but understand that disbelief is not the same thing as non-existent

2,000 years and counting, Striklymi and he religious brehtren have failed to bring any solid evidence for God

well the evidence for God is all around you..the problem is that you think God is what you have been told about mostly in the bible/koran..

Logicboy03: Of course- to a dubious, religious douche like you

why the insult..not necessary..

striktlymi: Not worth debating about.

i disagree brother.. its okay if you have nothing to contribute though

Logicboy03: How foolish. You have nothing to add here and because it is a painful truth, you just come here with your ad hominems.

First off, babies are not born with a belief in God. At best, they are agnostics.
When they reach a reasoning stage, they are atheists until they are indoctrinated (if they have theist parents)

@bolded. how are babies at best agnostics.. i couldnt reaLLY undertand @new alpha so hopefully you will do justice to the question..

New Alfa: because every religious fool that i know today was indoctrinated and brainwashed by another person.

I know where you are going with this: if all babies were born agnostic, where did religion come from then?

I will answer that. Babies are born with a capacity to invent things. A capacity to invent scenarios to explain their environment. A capacity to deceive. A hunger to control others. When you put all these together, you get religion. This is why religions are diverse because they primarily depend on the geographical location of the originator.

This is why christians give birth to christian babies and there has never been a christian baby in Saudi Arabia.

forgive me brother, maybe its because my eyes are a little heavy but i dont see the connection of your drivel up there to my question..your assertion was that " all babies are born agnostics" and i asked you to explain how you arrived at that averment. what is the capacity or lack of of babies to invent things "got to do with it"

wiegraf: They aren't conscious when they are born.

i dont know if i quite get this. are asserting that all babies are born atheist because they arent "conscious" when they are born..

Good God!! Where have you been?!

yea long time God brother..just been busy with business and stuff..how you been. hope all is well with you.

EDIT: Ah yes, and atheism is not necessarily that strong.

what do you mean by @bolded. in respect to what..

But true, for the most part, if you assert supernatural, then an atheist doesn't buy that. Natural explanations are welcome

well supernatural means just that- super natural or beyond the natural.. it is still natural nonetheless.. the problem is that people always assume or assign supernatural to "spiritual realm", deities etc

New Alfa: All babies are born agnostic then. Are you happy now?

ok good.. I am assuming that you ve let go of your previous stance and glueing yourself to a new one.. now my question is why do you assert that all babies are born agnostics..

OK i will keep this simple..

i hear this statement "all babies are born atheist" been thrown around a lot lately particularly from atheists. as absurd and odd as that statement is-from my perspective- given or as relates to the definition/proposition of atheism,it is my wish to invite all atheist in the house who aver to that notion to expatiate and justify on how they got to that conclusion - that all babies are born atheist..

like i said i will keep it simple so here is my tke..

No one is born an atheist.. to claim/assert otherwise is to engage in or employ a faulty defintion of atheism as "a lack of belief in God( no belief in God)..And we all know that is not the correct or real definition-at least to "real atheist"..Athesim is not a lack of bellief in God.. That is more described as "agnosticism"..

Atheism is the claim or belief in the non existence of God.. In other words it is the belief that the proposition "God exists" is false.. again we all know even to the least intelligent among us that NO BABY IS BORN WITH THAT BELIEF and as such no baby is born an atheist..

nevertheless i want to hear the atheists perspective on this all babies are born atheist mantra..

The primary reason why people wake up tired is because most people sleep too much..
Most people have bought into the biggest lie ever told concerning sleep. ie - needing at least 8 hours of sleep per night..

Most people are sleeping their life away.. The truth is any sleep over 6 hrs at a time is detrimental to your health and energy.. people that sleep more wake up more tired than when they slept..

The ideal pattern is to sleep for 4 hours a night and add a 1 or 2 hrs nap during the day.. you will know no tiredness with this pattern and wake up fully focused and full of energy.. if sleep is really needed then perhaps a 6 hrs per night and 30 to 40 mins nap in the evening will be ideal.. anything mire than 6 hrs then you will wake up more tired or feel like you need more sleep..

obadiah777: WHY TALK ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DONT BELIEVE IN ? SEEMS POINTLESS RIGHT ?

you don't have to believe in something to talk about.. besides I didn't say it has no truth. I said the least purveyor of truth..The bible and religion in general makes a mockery of The All That Is...

^^ lol about new age jumbo mumbo..its time to put the falso crayzo"old age" pipe down god brother... The bible is the least purveyor of truth on anything God or your Christ..But we can talk about your bible if you so chooses god brother..

The issue of form is what has many of you confused about God and a whole lot of other things..you say God is spirit, omnipotent, and omnipotent. Thus by default as a limitless and boundless SPIRIT, God can take on any form she so chooses.. yet most people out of ignorance erroneoulsy see God as the form he only appears to them in..if God was to appear to a different group/set of people in an entirely different form, the first group he appeared to will discard the second group version/form of God as false and not the real God.. most black people see God as black based on evidence from the bible-( the israelite were dark skinned and as such God appeared to them in the form they would understand and can relate to)..

but the truth is God is neither black or white, male or female becuase she is not bound by form. now he can take on any form she so chooses but he is not bound by those forms..

you as a spirit being can take on any form you so chooses in any existence or realm based on the experience that you want to have but you are not bound by those forms.. form is an illusion.. so you should not be confused if i tell you that as a male i was a female in some of my other incarnations.. i am not going to tell you why i choose to be a female in any of my existences but that should be obvious to you by now..

obadiah777: THE REAL YOU IS SPIRIT BUT YOU PAY FOR YOUR CRIMES IN THE FLESH. NOW DONT YOU EVER FORGET THAT.

pay for what crimes? and who is making you pay.
now since you know the real you is spirit i will hope you will answer this question.."Are saying that it is impossible for one to alternatively incarnate here as either either sex?"

obadiah777: OK LETS ASSUME YOU ARE NOT AN ATHEIST. CAN YOU BACK ALL YOUR ASSERTIONS WITH SCRIPTURES ? YOU SAYING YOU ARE A WOMAN IN ONE LIFE AND A MAN IN ANOTHER OR AN ISRAELITE IN ONE AND THEN AN ISHMAELITE IN ANOTHER ? YOU GOT TO REMEMBER NOW, THE LORD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. WHAT YOU ARE ESPOUSING IS CONFUSION. YOU DO ERR

Are saying that it is impossible for one to alternatively incarnate here as either either sex? Don't ever forget that you are not your form..form is an illusion.. The real you is spirit..don't ever forget that..

^^^ lol.. maybe you should try to confute that statement instead of blabering with " you're an atheist"..

^^^ What am i? Well Like you and everyone else..I am a spark of the divine. Part of ALL THat IS. God in flesh..

^^^Why wrongly label me as an atheist god brother.

And you don't have to agree with someone to commune or walk with.. this mentality is what brings division and has mankind in this dire state..

obadiah777: OH BUT YOU DO ERR KAILS. YOU STAY IN YOUR LANE. EACH NATION OF PEOPLE HAVE GENERATIONAL PUNISHMENTS THEY HAVE STORED UP THAT THEY PAY FOR AS A NATION OF PEOPLE. AS SUCH YOU STAY IN YOUR LANE. IF YOU WERE AN EGYPTIAN ( MIZRAIM ) FROM THE START YOU WOULD ALWAYS KEEP COMING BACK AS AN EGYPTIAN. EVERYONE STAYS IN THEIR LANE. FOR EXAMPLE, THE EDOMITES ( CAUCASIANS ) HAVE PILED UP ATTROCITIES NOW THAT THEY WOULD PAY FOR VERY SOON. WOULD IT BE FAIR FOR AN ISRAELITE ( SO CALLED NEGRO ) WHO HAS BEEN PAYING FOR HIS GENERATIONAL SINS ( WHICH WE HAVE, ITS CALLED THE DEUTERONOMY CURSES WHICH IS WHY WE ARE AT THE BOTTOM, WE GOT PUNISHED FIRST. JEWS FIRST THEN GENTILES ( 1 PETER 4 VS 17, AMOS 3 VS 2 )) SO WOULD IT BE FAIR FOR AN ISRAELITE WHO HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH HIS PUNISHMENT AND AFTER HIS PUNISHMENT HAS FINISHED AND HIS NATION OF PEOPLE IS UPLIFTED AGAIN, WOULD IT BE FAIR FOR HIM TO BE REINCARNATED INTO THE BODY OF AN EDOMITE ( WHITE PERSON ) WHEN IT IS THE TIME FOR EDOMITES TO PAY FOR THEIR CRIME ? THATS UNFAIR RIGHT ? DOUBLE PUNISHMENT. SO ERMM EVERYONE STAYS IN THEIR LANE. WHAT NATION YOU WERE MADE AS FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IS WHAT YOU WILL KEEP REINCARNATING BACK AS

That's a lie on almost all counts.. There is no such thing as staying in your lane.. everyone is at liberty to come back as whoever, wherever and whatever they so chooses.. now if there was a lesson or experience to be learnt where one failed to learn, then they might "repeatedly" for a while come back to that event or circumstance but even at that it is all based on the choice of the individual and not predetermined or as a result of karma, past deeds, past affiliations or anything for that matter.... There is no such thing as karma..

*Kails*:
lmao.
More like Queen Nanny.

I think i was an ancient egyptian twice.
Once as a woman and once as a man.

Real talk. I have these weird dreams and visions sometimes.
As a male in my visions i died violently. Lol no joke!

Anyway, I hope to learn who i was too if that is how it goes down,after death. It would be interesting....

I wouldn't call them weird dreams.. most dreams are of probable selfs and past life incarnations.. And they are real.. most people ego are so much focused in this existence that, they have "forgotten" who they really are.. People have forgotten that this "life"/experience is but a dream. A flick of an eye and that their "real" self is actually the self in the so called dream world or spiritual world.. this life is a beautiful dream that we are all having from the spiritual realm..

Speaking of death understand that you don't have to wait to disengage from this existence before finding out about who you really are( but you surely will after "death"..because this is not your first time here.. I personally have incarnated here more than 400 times ( as both sexes but more times as a male) even before recorded history... Those who are in tune with their real selfs know these truths..While those not are still stuck deep in their illusions-- and only truly awake after their "death"..

inspiredbyGOD:.:
hmmmn, that got me thinking. Wrong choice of words I guess.

thats the point of this whole discussion. get you thinking

Isn't GOD the ultimate judge?

who and what is he judging? herself? because there is none else but herself/itself..everything you see and exists is part of himself/itself/herself..so who will he condemn or judge? God does not judge god brother..

you are told to love your neighbor as yourself- not because it is a righteous/godly/holy/compassionate way to live- but because your neighbor is literally you playing a different role in the game of the life/universe..ultimately there is only one of us..Therefore caring for oneself and caring for others is ultimately the same. We are all one being. One body with many cells-the many cells came from One cell..when you judge another you are only judging none other but yourself..

again i will ask you this..is it possible for an all-powerful and unconditional loving deity to judge or condemn?

Isn't there any repercussion for wrong doing?

first of all "wrong" and "right" does not exist. we have made it all up..at a fundamental level there is really no such thing as right/good and wrong/evil in the universe. everything is just is..it is perception that frames reality and it depends on the beholder..

right and wrong is a judgement( and let me remind you again that God does not judge- humans do)..To consider something better than or worse than is a judgement..wrong is considered something of inferior quality compared to something better, therefore a lesser right/good is/will be considered wrong when compared with a greater right/good..so you see there is really no such thing as right and wrong..because i tell you what no one really does anything inappropriate based on the view of their world/reality..( In any war, everyone thinks they are the good guys. Terrorists think they are fighting evil. you might say “Oh, but they are wrong! They think they are good, but they are mistaken.” That’s probably what they say about you, too.. )..

now when there is no judgement there is no consideration of something being better or worse than another. everything is accepted equally as it is..God loves all equally regardless of their state of evolution or level of consciousness- smart/right and dumb/wrong

Secondly repercussions are not judgements..They are effects/consequences of an action..they are outcomes. natural outcomes not judgements or punishments..every "right" or "wrong" deed has an outcome.. so yes every "wrong" doing has it repercussion but understand that it is not as a result of a judgement from a Devil or a judgmental God

YAHWEH!

YHWH is a part of All That Is..

but lets talk about yahweh.. do you believe he is an unconditional loving, omniscient and all powerful God?..

inspiredbyGOD:.:
Okay.


You have a point there. However, the wicked can't stand in the presence of God. You only have nothing to fear if your ways are pure.
.

The presence of God? Where is this presence you talk of ... Why can't the wicked stand in the presence of God? .Are the "wicked" always not in her presence at all times? - or you think otherwise

Pure ways or not why should anyone dread or develop a cold feet in the presence of an unconditional loving deity? Is God's love based on a condition or unconditional?...does she love the just and abhors the ways of the unjust? Is it possible for an unconditional loving God to judge or even punish? ..

BTW who and what is The All That is to you.. maybe we should start from there..

inspiredbyGOD:.:
You miunderstand me. We can't behold GOD in the same way that we can't look at the sun {with our unaided eyes}

i do understand where you coming from now.. but even at that, understand that cant behold and dare not behold carries two different meanings...

however i dont want to dwell on this as my interest lies in your "No and Yes" statement below..nevertheless understand that "God" can,will, and has been beheld...

No and yes!

why should a so called "loving" God be feared..

I'm fine god brother, I just decided to stay off nairaland for a while.

thats good. been doing same lately myself..

inspiredbyGOD:.:
You mean the creator of the universe, the source of love and the source of all life. How do you expect me to have imagined such a being? Well, as a child, I just thought of God as Pure white light radiating with beauty and with glory that no eye can dare behold. I still have the same image till now.

Your statement was beautiful until @bolded..why did you think(im assuming you still dont have that perception)no one dared beheld something with that beauty? ..should God be feared?

how you been btw- long time

most people think taht they are are in conflict because they erroneously think that if you have reason then you don't need faith and if you go by faith , then you cannot go by reasoning ..this is a paradox that has caused the biggest problems in all spirituality and religion..

but the truth is faith and reason are actually one and the same thing.. in order to have faith about something you need to know it as true. you cannot know something as ture unless you have a reason for it to be so... faith is reason and reason is faith

Yes you don't god brother..most religious people don't or there will be no need for religion..

And yes the bible is a hogwash( maybe not a complete hogwash because it has some truths in it albeit the many distortions ). But hogwash nonetheless because the central theme/message is false..

There is nothing Holy about the "scriptures"... To be holy is to be WHOLE(Whole-ly)- complete in righteousness, love, perfect etc.. it is often said that God is Holy(w-holly )- a true statement-- because The All That Is is the totality/creator of everything in existence- seen and unseen ..
God is whole-ly,( Holy), jesus is Holy . your bible is definetly not holy. And don't think for a second it is the word of GOD as you have been told...

^^^ Too much derailling...go open a thread at the religion section..or go through some of my posts..I didn't come here to talk about God..and Oh from the little back and forth I done had with you I can tell you have no idea who GOD is or spirit..it is time to put the bible/Koran or so called holy scriptures down( but if you don't that's also perfectly fine. As a volitional creature with freewill you are free to belief in any hogwash you choose to believe in..no one will punish/condemn you for it..)

iebanehita: My dear, he is a Lost Sheep.

lol the irony..

Most people thinks with their human prowess, intellect and understanding, they can understand the things of the spirit?

son i dont think you have any idea what things of the spirit are...are you not a spirit?..i will suggest you stop repeating the hogwash that has been drummed into you head by your gullible pastors..

The carnal minds cannot understand the things of the spirit and that is why it would be a lost cause, entering into a discussion/an argument with anyone of his class.

god brother hold your breath because i don't even intend to waste my time on you..you dont even understand your jesus let alone your god for me to even waste time discussing things of the "spirit" with you... don't worry though when you pass from this earth everything will become clear to you.. You will look back and laugh at your ignorance ..

Remember, ALL Scrpiture are given by Inspiration of God...and God is a Spirit, who has NO EQUAL.

lol about all scripture are given by the inspiration of God..then your god must be foolish indeed..

Stegomiah: U aint an atheist α̲̅πϑ u aint religious.... Wia exactly do you blong?

who told you, you have to belong to anything? ..was the man you call jesus that you worship in ignorance religious?...just know that I come from the Infinite Creator/GOD and unto it I return when I disengage from physicality.. I don't indulge in the foolishness of religion or the ignorance of atheism..

I am the truth and the way...

Stegomiah: @
gr8genius, dnt wanna involve masef in ur argument wit iebanehita but
dis cummin sunday am gonna open a thread in religion 2 tackle all
atheists on NL, jst lyk i tld Atheist D, be prepared nd dont miss out, i
av a feeling you all gonna lose, glad 2 know u blong 2 d cliche, am
gonna kick ya as$

I don't do arguments actually.. I do discussions.. but I have realized that most people on nairaland are ignorants so I try not to waste my time on some things .

BTW I am not an atheist..neither I am religious..one of my purpose for incarnating here in physicality is to assist and re-mind people of who they really are... God in flesh..