Myer:

His argument, not mine. But Google is your best friend.
Ancient Mesopotamia supposedly dates back to 14000 BC. Ancient China also supposedly dates back to 11000 BC.

Your point being?

Good. That means, the Mesopotamia is older.

Now, help him to be doing research and study well. The same flood story he speaks about was in the legend of ancient Mesopotamia and ancient China. That means such story was already in circulation before Moses was born. Making Moses the sole owner of the flood story is lack of study. Moses must have learnt it in school, Egypt has same legend.

What you should do when reading Bible is to seek for theology not history or science. That is the safe way to know what its being taught. Moses only used the story to explain theology, God's plan for humanity.

Hence, HardMirror premise are too faulty to even be considered. Whether the flood happens or not is not my own issue but it's exposes his lack of research and proper study of the ancient world. And you can't criticize the Bible successfully without a deep understanding of their world.


In conclusion the flood story, predate even the China and Egypt that HardMirror used as his yardstick to measure if it happened or not. If Mesopotamia can have it as legend, and Mesopotamia is the region where we have the very first development of writings. that should let you know that such story predate the discovery of human letters, alphabet and ability of man to write things down. At best they were orally transmitted and we may never be able to ascertain how long it has existed.

Myer:


He based his calculations on biblical chronology.
Why does the bible give chronologies if according to you they're not meant to be taken seriously?

And on one side you may be able to help him answer what he is cant provide answer to since. This will help him see his wrong assumptions and errors.

Which is older, the ancient Mesopotamia or ancient China?

Myer:


He based his calculations on biblical chronology.
Why does the bible give chronologies if according to you they're not meant to be taken seriously?

Well you never addressed my points. But I will still treat your thoughts as separate.

Which of the chronology is he basing his assumption on. That will help us streamline his error.

ifyken:

Freethinkers in my opinion is people who can question any belief they hold to check if it is reasonable. a vast majority of christain are not freethinkers because they can't question Joshua telling the sun to stop moving even though it is the earth that actually moves around the sun, talking snake and donkey.
Fossil of homosapiens discovered that are 300,000 years old even though that the bible says that humans are 6,000 years old.
Noah flood Never happened if you understand your water cycle taught in school. If it happened earth will still be flooded due to the fact that the flood that evaporated will come down again as rain.
There are many other things in the bible that are irrational but it will take all day for me to mention them

Deborah98: :
I'll research on my own and get acquainted with all you put down.

@ifyken

But all these you wrote were your assumptions from the Bible. You may need to reread and understand better.

1. Joshua was never wrong with the science and knowledge of their days. Judging a text of 3000 years ago with recent science is like arguing why is Tesla car not mentioned in the Bible. We must stick to the knowledge of their days to judge them.

Even the atheist of their days will say sun moves. The writer used the language and knowledge of their days to explain the events. Knowing years later that it's the earth that moves/stops never make the events untrue. We just read today with better understanding.


2. Can you show me the very verse or events where the Bible stated that the earth is 6000 years. I guess you are assuming? But you stated it as if it was written in the Bible. You were wrong. Try to reduce your assumptions by reading Bible text yourself.


3. Flooding of the earth wasn't the story Moses the writer in the Bible. The story was in existence before he was born. The ancient world has the legends and the stories over 400 years before Moses was born. He could never have been the one who started it. Definitely he was taught.

Howbeit, Moses wrote and used the story to unveil God's mind to us. God plan and purpose. That's what prophet does.

Don't you think the moment you start using a Prophet word as scientific you are actually the one in error. Moses was a prophet of God not a professor of science. If you have been taught that Moses or Bible wrote science, you have been misled and it's still affecting your thought pattern.

Moses used existing stories and legends to communicate wisdom about God's plan in the earth. When you read a prophet, seek for the wisdom of God in what he is saying not holding to expressions used.

If you have read well the ancient world writings, you will know that a wise writer is the one who uses events, figures, animals etc to unlock hard truth, and express wisdom to his hearer. Hence, see to it that you understand the intent of Moses in writing to us about Noah's flood.


If you have read me up to this point, I believe what should fill your mind now is to reread those stories that have been presented to you wrongly and start looking for God's wisdom in the mouth of the prophet, the writer than reading it as a science book.

Cheers.

LordReed2nd:


Well maybe the rice had was too much and is drawing blood away from your head. Sleep and wake up may be by then the food would have digested and you would understand the comparison.

I have already done all above. The solution to this is for you to use the magic wand and remove Potter from your box. With that the Jericho wall will rise.

Myer:


The world we live in existed long before man knew how to write.
Long before the Bible was canonised.

That you believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of heaven and earth is your choice even though there is no proof.

The point being that the Bible is a literary work just like Harry Potter.
While J.K Rowlings acknowledges her work to be fantasy, we know the Bible just like other religious Holy books claims to be inspired by God even though they all differ in the said inspiration.

.

I will rest my case since you have chosen to divert the real issue of creation to just writing

LordReed2nd:


LoL! How can you not see it is a direct comparison with reference to archeological findings? Have you eaten today? Bwahahahahahaha!

I ate rice. Maybe rice isn't good in 2022. Lol

Take your Harry Potter out, it's blocking the Jericho wall.

LordReed2nd:


Did you look up who an archeologist is?

chatinent:
Contemporary archaeologists agree that current discoveries tally with bible writings.

LordReed:
That London exists is not proof Harry Potter is a real person or that JK Rowling was documenting real history. That Jericho existed doesn't mean your magic sky daddy destroyed its walls.

The reference to Jericho should have clued you in to the point of my response so actually you are the one off point.

Then delete your Harry Potter first then I can start seeing to Jericho story.

Myer:


The Bible is a written work just like Harry Potter.
You only chose to believe the Bible as real and disbelieve Harry Potter as unreal.

You have finally diverted the discussion.

Go back and read what I quoted. It was never about writings but creation. The world we are in. We need no writing to know this world exists. Comparing it to Harry Potter is just an excuse to discussion.

Myer:


Every art is a creation.

All you know about the bible was created literally.
Same way with Harry Potter.

I can also write that I created you as your father.
Does it prove in real sense that I am your father? I simply created a writ that I created you.

The bible claims the creation of the earth and heavens to God without any known proof.

Otherwise, praytell, how do you know your biblical God created heaven and earth other than what's written in the bible?

Are we talking about what is written or what was created? Don't divert the analogy. We are talking about creation now. Not what is documented about creation.

The world existed, we are in it, we can hold, work in it. Hence no one doubt it. Harry Potter world is none existent, it was a movie. Or else give details of his world or what he created that we can hold or work with then this analogy can fly.

The argument here is if the earth was created, using Harry Potter, an abstraction with no substance of creation to explain reality is joke taken too far.

I hope you get this now.

LordReed2nd:


Maybe you don't know who an archeologist is, please look it up.

Harry potter nko?

HardMirror:
it is not a waste of time. Seun was one of those that helped me to finally become an atheist. I had many questions as a christian I was seeing the lies but I was very afraid. Nairaland helped me to drop the lies of religion. My posts can help someone, it is not a waste of time. I wont stop posting and exposing these lies

1. You aren't an Atheist.
2. You didn't drop religion, you are opposing it. It's the same chain holding those who are in false religion and one like you.
3. Your tool is still the lies you were told.

HardMirror:
go any where, it is the same. The evidence of all these dynasties are in museums all over the world. Can you not see the pyramids of egypt? What are you saying? How did noah and his sons just 8 of them o, spread to china and egypt and Persia in just 2 generations? How did they give birth to millions of children in under 100 years

The ancient world of Mesopotamia and ancient China, which is older?

HardMirror:
which yeye guessing? Each king ruled for a certain time that can be traced down till date. The chinese have been keeping records long before noah was born (if he ever existed) same with the Egyptians. This is not story story, this is something on record, we have all the writings and proofs of all these kings.

..

The ancient world of Mesopotamia and the ancient China which is older?

HardMirror:
Do you know we can accurately calculate when the great flood in the bible supposedly happened?

The lifespans in Genesis 11 span from Abram back to the Flood. When we add the years listed in Genesis 11 to Abram’s birth year 2166 B.C., we get about 2472 B.C. for the Flood year. Add the 1,656 years from Genesis 5 to that and we get nearly 4128 B.C.

So the flood happened around 2472 B.C.
https://www.icr.org/article/when-did-noahs-flood-happen


So what is the problem?

The problem is, this was the same period Egypt started to flourish and develop rapidly.

This was the same time the great pyramids of Egypt where built.
The Fourth Dynasty of ancient Egypt (notated Dynasty IV) is characterized as a "golden age" of the Old Kingdom of Egypt. Dynasty IV lasted from c. 2613 to 2494 BC.[1] It was a time of peace and prosperity as well as one during which trade with other countries is documented.


In fact king Khufu who built the largest pyramids became pharaoh of egypt just 200 years after the great flood that was supposed to wipe out every human on earth and only Noah and 7 members of his family are supposed to be the only ones left.

So how come King Khufu had a Nation of people who could build the largest pyramids in just 200 years from just 8 people that survived the flood?

Dont forget that King Khufu also had a predecessor? How come?

We have proof and a list of all the Pharoahs of Egypt even all through the period that this flood should have happened.

From the 4th dynasty to the 6th dynasty

From 2600bc to 2100bc

So when did this flood happen? And how come there are records of nations always existing all through this period that the whole world should have been wiped out?

This is proof the bible is nothing but blatant lies if only we would ask questions.

..

What a fallacious conclusion.

We say, calm down and learn Bible, you argue. We say read am properly yourself, you argue. See yourself now.

A very poor knowledge of what you criticized. You are all wrong in context, explanation, in language, understanding and even ability to read well.


Bible wasn't teaching flood story, such story were in existence even before Moses was born. The ancient world had it. You took time to be estimating flood period but failed to do study on where and how such story began. That is laziness.

The writer of that portion of the Bible was a prophet and was using the flood story to teach God's plan for humanity. He never claimed to be the author of the story, but he was the mouth piece for the revelation taught using the same story.


It will then become, an issue of unseriousness, for one to read the word of a prophet of God and start comparing it to science. Such has not only lost his simple education, he has lost his ability to reason things the right way.

Workch:
OK, my vote goes for Abraham. After hearing voices in his head he gives up his home and makes his family and sex slave live in a tent. He mutilates his own genitals, then his son’s then actually gets the kid to help him build an alter so he can offer him up as a human sacrifice. The voice in his head tells him to stop at the last minute. But still later after getting his sex slave pregnant he sends her and his other son out into the wilderness to die because he wife nagged him about it.


I mean. Bleep.

What Abraham needed was a course of Chlorpromazine two to four times a day in conjunction with some sort of talking therapy twice a week. However, it seems god isn't a man of science or medicine.

Welcome back from your hibernation.
Happy new year.

May Abraham lot becomes yours this year. Amen.

Myer:


This one off me.
Perfect analogy.

No Sir, it was off point.

Harry Potter never created anything, else show me what we can touch, work on that he did, then we can argue his existence.

We are speaking of what is created not what is assumed or abstract.

The analogy didn't address this.

HardMirror:
Happy Sunday, please why is there so much debate on God's existence?
This is a debate that has lasted thousands of years... why is it that millions of people are still unable to see something as irrefutable as God?

.

Where have you been searching your evidence? With science or with Theology?

HardMirror:
oh o but they dont think the universe could have started from a singularity? The expansion of the universe is proof the universe started from a single point

what is the single point

HardMirror:
everything about god was created by humans even the laws of this so called god. No wonder there are many gods and even those who serve same god are saying different things on behalf of the same god

Have you ever wondered that in the ancient world, almost all regions and culture have knowledge of a god without these people having interaction together.

Mesopotamia had theirs
African did same even without having to learn from each other.

Each region had one way or the other the development of the knowledge of a God. An acclaimed experience that almost align with the experience of those they never had contact with.

I am sure they weren't reasoning together or communicating to arrive at almost the same conclusion.


If we assume they were all foolish, then the definition of foolishness must have been taken from a more foolish generation that arose thousands of years after, called the modem world.

BegAt40:

But the painter won't throw people in hell for not knowing him even after intentionally making his identity a secret.

And have you been thrown in hell now with your opposing view?

LordReed:


That London exists is not proof Harry Potter is a real person or that JK Rowling was documenting real history. That Jericho existed doesn't mean your magic sky daddy destroyed its walls.

..

This analogy doesn't go. It's a subtle diversion.

He referenced the creation. What you can see, feel, hold, work with not what is abstract, or in movies. Creation isn't movie. Harry Potter never had anything done that we can visit, hold or work with. It was an imagination.

So, you should place the right analogy. Like something created or invented without an inventor or creator. That will be perfect.

1Sharon:


The sarcasm was lost on you.

Sure. I will rather have it lost on me and have you found in my own literal words for you.

LordReed:


It's so obvious people want magic that they can control to be real. No wonder some Christians hated Harry Potter, that was a fantasy so much more realistic than their own, they feared people would believe in the Harry Potter fantasy more than their own bible fantasies.

..

So much more ahead of you this year Bro.

I am trusting for you, a pondering thought, like that of a sight of the morning clouds, a new desire to research and reexamine that which you have worked through in decades of knowledge and years gone-by. Howbeit, in a new ray of light, flooding your heart to find that which you truly seek with a honest heart.

Likewise, that with God, your hands are fortified to strengthen that which you do in the natural. And keep you and yours from harms way year long.

Have a great year ahead.

1Sharon:


Jesus I love you.

..

Happy new year damsel.

I am hopeful your thoughts find a new meaning in these words, your heart to see a higher purpose that will define you more this year. A purpose strong to cast down heights and walls of partition and give way to God's light for you.

I pray also, your hands strengthened to excel more in your affairs and endeavor.

Do have a great year ahead.

HardMirror:
When I was young I wanted to be a doctor, but I discovered typing amen on Facebook can cure all diseases.


Is this a joke?

No, it is not a joke. I believe this along with 2 billion other people, we cannot all be wrong. You dont believe me, visit pastor adeboye's face book page or pastor oyakilome's Facebook page.

Why spend millions of naira when just typing amen can cure your cancer, kidney failure, stroke, diabetes.

What is wrong with people why are you people patronizing hospitals and wasting your money when healing is fee of charge, painless, and immediate. What is wrong with you people going to hospitals? Why are u going through all this stress?

.

Is this the best you can lay your hands on, the first day of a year? I expect you to be checking your jotting from what I corrected you in past year.

How I wish internet will give you room to fast track your learning and be better. You will need that alot this year as your handling of criticism is still very low and without proper knowledge.

I hope you aren't planning to just become a jester all year long in 2022.

I will be here to help you grow better always.

Happy new year Bro.

Myer:


Like I said we have established apriori that you don't really believe in the power of the Holyspiriit.

Otherwise you will be comfortable evangelising and letting the Holyspirit determine where the convert will be discipled.

Haahahaaa. I hope your assumption about me won't hold your legs one day. It shows you haven't been following my submissions on NL. If you do, you will know how much I hold in high esteem the apostolic and charismatic ministry. But let's leave that.


I pointed you to the practices seen in the scriptures, which the Holyspirit inspired. Men were saved and raised as disciples consistently. The whole of the Epistles are books of discipleship for churches. Speaking about letting the Holyspirit decide is like casting men out to do what they want in the name of Holyspirit. You are the light they see, you are the voice of the spirit they obeyed when they got saved. They must also be able to trust that same voice the holyghost used to saved them to disciple them.

Let's stay true to the scriptures. Get men saved, get men matured. That's the scriptures.

Jesus said it and taught it,
Peter said it and taught it
Paul said it and taught it.
John said it and taught it.
Same as James, Jude.

But no one taught what you are pointing at here in the scriptures. No single person or teaching taught that. Yet there are over 100 verses, teaching, explanation and practice of what I point you to. Don't you think that means much.

Myer:


Do you know that you cannot use logic to decide this?

1. Logically Paul should not be an Apostle. But guess what? Jesus and the Holyspirit selected him to be one.
Paul was not disciples by the Apostles, infact he was disciples in Arabia. Galatians 3.

2. What you should focus on is the simple instruction to evangelise to non-believers. Allow God,through the Holyspirit decide how they are discipled.

Bro don't let us go into doctrinal exegesis of this. The church itself is a school for discipleship. That is what was taught and practiced in the Bible. I am not the one determining it and the Holy spirit isn't going to determine this, He has already determined it and given us in his word.

The church is the place for Christian maturity. Holyspirit don't initiate confusion but order. Let's follow that order he has laid in the scriptures.

Myer:


I think you're mistaking evangelism for discipleship.

While these two often go together, scripturally they are exclusive of one another.

Jesus converted several Jews and non-Jews but didn't disciple them. He only focused on the 12. Others who followed him also benefitted.

The man with legions cast out of him is a clear example. He had only an encounter with Jesus after which he himself became an evangelist to a Decapolis.

The Samaritan woman had an encounter with Jesus and evangelised to others.

The Ethiopian Eunuch is a clear example. Philip was caught up in the spirit (disappeared) and driven to evangelise to him on his way and after guiding him to a scripture he disappeared. Guess what? That was his only encounter with the Apostles.

So Evangelism does not necessarily have to be a physical onsite event.
Discipleship may be.

The moment I refer to "church gathering" that already shows discipleship. That is the essence of the gathering of Believers. To be matured. Hence my submission.

Myer:


Well said.
But apparently, I should help you with your blindspot here.

You're an Evangelist and a Teacher. And this two ministries are evident in your interactions on NL.

I do hope some of your followers/audience get to experience the power of God/Holyspirit through you and this would confirm God's word and probably even attract converts.

Also, while onsite evangelism cannot be displaced, you should understand like the sons of Issachar the times and seasons.

Church, just like school and even jobs has gone Virtual.
So every engagement online even on NL where Christ is preached is actually evangelism, even in arguments and disagreements.

Phillipians 1:15-18
b Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, cknowing that I am put here for dthe defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ eout of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,

I love the fact that you said offline can't be displaced. I will add to that.

The church of Jesus is not decided by technology. The gathering of God's people can never become online. Mark it down. The gathering will overcome this present wave of online church. It won't stand the test of time.

As much as technology is beautiful, and has helped us more in reaching more, yet it can never take the place of physical gathering. The church is beyond just coming together to sing and hear God's word. It's a training ground for the saints. Where saints are molded for the work.

Like I told you before, military training for recruits hasn't gone online, why?. Do you see an army being trained all online without physical interaction for combat? If US with one of the best technology in the world has never neglected their off-site training for their army, how much more the soldier of Christ.

We will scale this phase, I assure you. The church will gather in unity of strength physically to reach more for Jesus.

Myer:


I had an account on NL here that all I did was evangelise just like you and Jesusjnr are doing today.

Christ was against reigionism whether Christian or otherwise.

Biblically Christ did a lot of things that today the typical Christian would find blasphemous.

1. He mixed with sinners. He wined and dined with them.

2. He chased traders out of the church. What today most GOs and Pastors are guilty of. Trading their anointing oils, books and daily guides.

3. He spoke against the authorities of his time- Pharisees and Saducees.

Well

Firstly, I don't think I am evangelizing here. I can call what happens here only contending for the faith to do my part and ensure God's word isn't handled badly at least in the spheres I am.

I am a strong believer in offsite on ground evangelism and outreach. I don't believe much can be don't on that online. Just the way you can't train a recruit soldier online for combat, you can't raise a Christian soldier same way.


Secondly, I believe that my conviction about Christianity and the practice of it is what was found in the 4 gospels in christ life and the Acts/Epistles. I also believe strongly in getting better on this.

Thirdly, I believe there isn't any perfect church or Christian. So much you will have something to always correct and be better. The church is for perfecting people not for perfect people. So I believe that even if a denomination have some contradictions from what I hold or some Bible practice, it doesn't make them unbelievers or false teachers except it is done deliberately against the lord or his church. Hence I will rather protect my brothers (all Christians) than cast aspersions to them in public sphere. Every family will do that. Right?


Fourthly.
I believe that no unbeliever should be condemned but reached with convincing thoughts to bring them to Christ. I believe and have seen even the worst of atheist becoming a great preacher of the word. Atheism, Cultisms doesn't move me not do I see them as inferior to me as human. I only desire always for them to be able to come to this light even as I am. And this is my strongest desire for HardMirror and LordReed to name few.

This I can do by preaching, pleading, scolding, admonishing, exhorting, teaching and correcting. Hence such fellow may receive it different way but a honest person will know I never condemn nor demean an unbeliever for any reasons.


Hence, I believe, that any where the name of the Lord is named in sincerity, they are my brothers irrespective of the doctrine preached, it will only be an issue of straightening the doctrine not casting out as unbelievers. There is the unity of faith.

And all these I have tried as much to hold true even on NL.

Myer:


I have done my part as an evangelist.
Now I'm just doing my part to deconstruct people from religionism that is against the teachings of Christ himself.

Oh okay. What's your definition of Christian "religionism" as against Christ teaching as you mentioned.