budaatum:



And to be honest, I still do not get your point.

My point is that as long as there is a mechanism by which outcomes result, the notion that there is no intelligent, personal creator is demonstrably false.

shadeyinka:

Their folly is actually apparent to them. But when a person's Intellect has been chained by satan: even with eyes, they wouldn't see!

Indeed. That is actually why I lost interest in these debates.

4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (NIV)

bobestman:


You want to be one with a people and you don't want to follow their ways. You want to go to Rome and don't want to do as they do there....you left your land for another people's land and don't want to follow their traditions...where is that done bikonu? Una eyes go clear soon
Your name sounds like Igbo and you are calling yourself a gentile not knowing that Igbos are one of the head tribes of IsiOraEle. What traditions do Isreal keep that your ancestors didn't? Your his-stories are what they gave you as that of Isreal. Una Ignorance don reach a high crescendo...May Chiukwu Okike open una eyes

I prefer my ignorance to yours, sir. I would rather have the truth of the Bible than your teachings.

As for not wanting the ways of the Jews, it isn't about what I want. It is about what the Bible teaches. If the Bible says that Gentiles should not try to become Jews just because they have heard and believed the Gospel, then that is what I believe. I'm afraid I can't make it my problem that you disagree.

LordReed:


LMAO! I am laughing because you just described evolution in a nutshell. Bwahahahaha!

I promise you I don't understand your comment.

shadeyinka:

I am pulling their legs.

I just illustrated how those who think the universe is just one huge lucky jackpot of converging coincidences of accidents which just happened to produce laws, order, universe, stars, planets, and above all living beings.

Oh. LOL! I thought it was odd that you were agreeing with such a thought.

Well done.

shadeyinka:

Let's just imagine that the juggling is possible. Wouldn't it produce a meaningful paragraph of English, French or Dutch language?

The problem is in the imagining. What would we be imagining?

When you "throw" a bunch of characters onto a blank canvas, you activated a mechanism that has complex variables interacting with each other in obscure but completely reasonable patterns. As such, you already have intelligence operating on those characters. There is no true randomness there.

When a computer writes a love letter or a chemistry textbook, it can't do it without being told what to do and how to do it. There is absolutely no computer that works without programming. Programming is the provision of logic to the computer in order for it to operate.

Likewise, there is absolutely no random process that exists. Every outcome that exists required a logical process to bring it into existence.

This is precisely why evolution has no scientific or logical leg to stand on.

Ubenedictus:
i have no problem with the church as Israel...for me that is basic...but I have read interpretations here that allows the church to the Israel when it seems suitable and immediately rejects it when people start to draw lines in the sand about old and new covenants and how Israel ended in the old and has no relationship to the church of the new

I have already explained in other responses that we who are Gentile believers are only Israelites in a spiritual sense. We are not Israelites in a legal sense, therefore many things that apply legally (or naturally, in a manner of speaking) to natural descendants of Israel do not apply to us. For example, the Temple worship, circumcision, Sabbaths, etc do not apply to Gentile believers. They only apply to natural Jews.

However, all things that apply to Israel in a spiritual sense, for example, Salvation, Tribulation, divine discipline, special protection and provision, etc, apply to Gentile believers too.

bobestman:

You won't understand until the time the truth comes out.

I think that that would be you.

bobestman:


Am not begging you to agree with me cos ignorance is like sleep and your initial reaction is to be mad at the person who wakes you up. All this were coded for you in scriptures, many of your pastors have seen it, your enemies have acted it in movies and many of us have seen it via revelation. The day you wake up is your morning

You mean the same Scriptures that you also said are corrupt and no longer carry the information that they originally had?

shadeyinka:
What is the probability given

1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

1. Intelligence can result
By intellegence I mean Logic acting on data and producing results consistent with the logic.
Or
2. A meaningful book can result


Some professors are of the opinion that given enough time, without any seed of intellegence behind it, a computer can write a love letter or a chemistry textbook!

And I agree with them!

I'm afraid I don't understand. What would be the means if there is no intelligence behind the whole thing?

bobestman:

You will understand soon. Africa is the land of creation. No matter how lie flies, truth will surely overtake it. That's the meaning of end time

I couldn't agree more with you: The truth will always overcome the lie, no matter how far or how fast it flies.

And it will overcome your lies as well.

Ubenedictus:
hmm, u knw a new testament author did make a distinction between Sinai and Jerusalem, the old and the new?

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Gal 4:21 — Gal 4:31 (NKJV)

I believe that the quote above is the passage you mean. I think it is obvious from there that Paul was speaking of the two covenants, the one at Sinai and the one at the Cross.

For what it is worth, what Paul is teaching there is that the Law was given through Moses to teach the Jews (and the whole world by extension) that we are sinful people in need of a special intervention by God in order to escape going to Hell. That is what "the law is a schoolmaster whose job is to bring us to Christ" means.

So, that Jerusalem that Paul was speaking of was the regime of law that the Pharisees and the Scribes were perpetuating at that time. It offered no salvation, only guilt. That wasn't the Jerusalem of God's own offering. The Law was not supposed to be a stop. It was supposed to be a guide to salvation.

The Jerusalem that is "above" is the salvation that we all receive by faith in Jesus Christ. When we accept our sinfulness and our own inability to ever save ourselves, then we become able to accept the Gospel and be saved. When we do accept it, we become like Isaac, children of Abraham. That is not a different Israel. That is the true Israel. Those Pharisees, scribes, and other Jews who refused to believe were the ones who were false Israelites. Faith is what makes anyone a true Jew.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Rom 9:6 — Rom 9:8 (NKJV)

So, no two "Israels," just one. All who believe the Gospel are part of Israel. All who don't are not.

In conclusion then, Israel is the Church and the Church is Israel, just as I said before.

bobestman:


Hehehe very funny. So you want to know everything in a book that has rewritten many times and plagiarized from an ancient book hidden since the days Daniel 12:4. Many things I tell you are either from the unsealings or by Revelation. There is also no harm in researching then cos the bible teaches you should be like the Bereans who search out all things to know if it's true.

The abode of Mother Isreal in Revelation 12 is in a land in Africa. Africa is close to the equator and close to the sun. This is the meaning of she was clothed with the sun. When you see words like Cush, Ethiopia, Egypt, Wilderness etc all these are codes for Africa.
Sorry can't give you scripture for all that cos the geography and location of many places in the book were changed by your enemies to hide the truth from. My teachings might look like assertion to you but I don't care cos you will understand soon. Many Hebrews knew how it all happened and have seen this Africa in his prehistoric days. It will be clear soon .

Well, you have at least admitted that there is no biblical evidence for your claims. As I said before, I haven't seen these things in the Bible and I only believe what the Bible says.

Ubenedictus:
there is a little bit of dancing that goes with interpreting this passage.

1. the woman is Israel
2. She gives birth to Christ....

but if you keep reading you will find out that the devil goes to make war with the Children of the Woman, i.e Christians, which would mean that at the last part of the revation the Woman isn't just Israel but instead the Church or as some will say the Jerusalem above our mother.

How do explain that last part where the focus moves from Israel to the Church?

Hello Ubenedictus.

Been a minute. I hope that you have been well.

As I have said in other responses on this thread, the Church is Israel and Israel is the Church. They are one and the same thing.

bobestman:


I told you what the bible said. There are references up there too. It's Okay

These are the passages that you posted.

9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:9 (NKJV)

9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
Revelation 3:9 (NKJV)

24 Then the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria and dwelt in its cities.
2 Kings 17:24 (NKJV)

Nothing in any of them says that the true Jews had their first home in Africa or that they returned there. Nothing in them says anything about the color of the Jews. Nothing in them says that the holy land (whatever that means) is really in Africa.

So I can't see how the Scriptures say anything like what you teach.

bobestman:

You are right with others but when you say Jew, who do you mean? The true Jews were Judeans and they have all left Isreal and back to their first home in Africa. The whites Jews of Isreal are impostors. The Bible called them synagogues of Satan Rev 2:9; 3:9. They were all babylonian converts who replaced us when we left Isreal back to our real land of our mother in Africa. Read 2 Kings 17:24 also read all the chapter for a better understanding to know how we left that land and how they replaced us there. We are the true Isreal and the holy land is in Africa not Middle East. You all have forgotten who you are and that is the reason for endtime. It means end of all lies use to enslave the true ppl and the Revelation of the truth. You all will understand soon.

Hi there.

I don't know any part of the Bible that teaches any of the above. And I only believe what the Bible says.

livingchrist:
yes
Christians are spiritual Isreal and not everyone from Israel is truly an isrealities but understand that my submission on pre tribualtion is based on the promise of God to rebuild the nation of Israel which will eventually consist of those who are naturally Jews and Gentiles who became jews by rebirth. Jesus mentioned it in John that there are sheep not of the Jewsish fold but would be joined to the Jews at the later days and paul said God is not through with the natural jews but will surely revisit them, this was already showed to Daniel as the last 7 years which of the 70 weeks prophecy.
Only the pretribulation can put all these puzzles together. Whether you believe in the pretribulation rapture or not it does not deny the fact you made a good submission.

Fair enough.

However, I didn't say that Christians are "spiritual Israel." I don't know anything like a "spiritual Israel." What I said is that Gentile believers are made a part of the nation of Israel in a spiritual sense.

What that means is that what applies to the nation of Israel spiritually applies to Gentile believers too spiritually. But certain things that apply to Israel "politically" or "legally" do not apply to Gentile believers because they are Gentiles.

So, for example, we are going to be saved eternally just like Jews who believe. We are also going to experience Jacob's trouble because we are Jacob's children too and the trouble is a spiritual business. But we are not to get crazy about circumcision, Sabbaths, new moons, etc because we are not ethnic Jews. Those are legal matters exclusive to ethnic Jews.

bukatyne:


Is this same Ihedinobi of family Section those years?

Hey Bukky!!!

Long time!!! How have you and Hubby been?

Yes o, it's the same "me" o.

Drabeey:
The question should be, is the Bible obsolete?


The bible had been written for a very long time. My understanding is that the bible contains histories and people's way of life. Dealings with God and God's words. If i am correct...

Don't we need to write another bible?
Many new prophecies are on ground
Many scientific improvements that points to the existence of God.
For the coming generations that may find these histories hard to believe because of the new technology advancement they met.


If the new generation can't write a Bible, why?
Are the new generation of prophets and pastors lower fidel to older ones?

Rev 22:18–19.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I am not saying remove or add. I mean write a new one that will preach directly to the Modern bad vices like terrorism and "dirtiness due to holiness", e.t.c

Nigeria may even be included in the bible.
Many archeological newer facts will be included
(like the last pieces of Noah's ark found)
Covid19 plague and so on...

My question, can't the world come together to write a new bible for the modern world sake?
If you say Jesus is coming soon so no need, what if his coming is another 2000 years time?
Do we need a new modern Bible or not?


Updated: Many people saying the Bible is complete and everything to happen has been written...

Will man get to Mars?
Do the bible realise there are many earthlike planets?
What is the Bible perspectives on Brain preservation?

I just want to learn.

Hi there.

Forgive my saying so, but I don't think you are looking to learn anything. Rather, it seems to me that you have a position that you are trying to sell to the rest of us.

To put it rather bluntly, you are not being truthful when you say, "I am not saying remove or add." Obviously, a new Bible would be a replacement for the old one, would it not? So, we would be removing the old one to add the new one to our experience.

As you obviously know, the Bible already prohibits such a thing.

89 Your word, LORD, is eternal;
it stands firm in the heavens.
Psalms 119:89 (NIV)

The above is what the Bible says. If God's Word is eternal and stands firm in heaven, then it only follows that there is no replacing it.

Is the Bible obsolete? As the above verse says, no, it isn't. Does it account for events today? Yes, it does. Does it mention some of the things in our world today with specificity? No, it doesn't, but it also doesn't mention much from all the ages past with great specificity. The Bible offers eternal teaching that can be applied in every age. It was written to direct the Christian experience throughout human history.

Does it satisfy everyone? Of course not. Nor does it even try to. The Truth is the Truth. Anyone who bows to the Truth is blessed by it. Anyone who insists that the Truth must yield to them will be broken and destroyed by the Truth.

44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
Matthew 21:44 (NIV) (compare Jeremiah 23:29)

So, I'm afraid you will have to manufacture your own Bible if you want. You wouldn't be the first. The Jehovah's Witnesses already did. The Mormons did. The Roman Catholics did. Muhammad did. There are so many "words of God" that have been written at all kinds of times to respond to the insufficiency or inadequacy of the Bible. Whether there is any safety in those "truths" will be seen by those who hold to these "improvements."

Icyexpressions:
First chapter of my life, (0—15) I attended church and most times I'm always disturbed by the story of creation of earth. so many questions, no satisfying answer and all that.

I do not doubt God but I just understand that material benefit on Earth doesn't necessarily need to be tied to religion. We can still make that connection in other social gathering like club, party and many other places.

Now, I'm not thinking of heaven because I don't know what to believe......

Do I even have any reason to go to church when I stand to gain nothing?

Hi there.

You're exactly right that material benefit is not necessarily tied to "religion." Of course, Christianity is not a religion, but what you said applies to Christianity too. One does not need to be a Christian to have material success. In fact, Christianity makes success in this world very difficult and sometimes impossible for those who choose to be Christians.

Why should anyone be a Christian though? The most important reason is that we don't want to go to the Lake of Fire. The world around us and our very own selves tell us that there is a God, that that God is perfect and good, and that He will punish us for our sins unless something is done. This is what brings us all to a desperate need for the Gospel (or good news).

This is the Gospel: this perfect and good God sent His Son to die spiritually on the Cross for our sins. The greatness of this Sacrifice begins to be seen in the fact that this Son is also God by nature and elected of His own will to become a man so that He could die on the Cross for us. Because of this Sacrifice like no other, we have been forgiven by God and are welcome back into His embrace if we want to go back to Him. So, no one needs to fear going to the Lake of Fire anymore. All we need to do is not reject this incredible Gift of gifts so that we can appropriate this grand forgiveness for all of our mad wickedness.

This is why we become Christians. Anyone who feels either that they have no sin to worry about or that there is no God for them to be concerned about or that the Gospel is not true will simply not be a Christian. I consider that a very scary position to be in. I would much rather be tortured to death in this world than risk ending up in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. I honestly don't see any reason why anyone would take such a crazy risk.

About going to church, however, I think I can relate completely. I finally stopped going to church more than years ago. I was always very committed to going to church or attending Christian fellowship of all kinds until I stopped fooling myself about the spiritual value of doing so. I was not learning what the Bible teaches. Rather, I was being fed a crazy mix of convoluted teachings about the Bible that either didn't sound right or was blatantly wrong from even a cursory reading of the Bible. I wanted badly to learn what the Bible actually teaches, but I didn't know where to go after going to so many churches and following all sorts of ministries.

God had mercy upon mercy upon me and brought me to https://ichthys.com not long after I stopped bothering with churches. That is where I was able to finally learn everything that the Bible teaches as one unified system of truth. It is also where I am training to become a full-fledged pastor-teacher so that I can do for others what was done for me there.

The Scriptures do not mandate "going to church" in the sense that we know it today. Rather they teach that we ought to be around other serious believers as often as we can manage so that they can encourage us in our walk with the Lord. Obviously, we do better when we work with comrades who share our goals and actively help us in achieving them. The Lord designed the Church (the spiritual collection of all those who believe the Gospel) to operate as one unit. Together they can grow spiritually (see the link) and bear fruit for the Lord for which they qualify for eternal rewards that make the riches of this world look like things unworthy of even children's games.

So I would encourage you to take the path of spiritual growth and appreciate all the positive believers (that is, believers who are seriously pursuing spiritual growth) that the Lord brings into your life and use all the help that they offer you to grow and progress spiritually and do your best to help them too in every way that you can.

younglleo:
Pls ignore my grammatical errors!



Being born into a religious and Christian family seems to have been the worst thing that has happuned to me.
Am a supposed Christian, who is falling apart due to life inconveniences.... Struggling for almost every thing in my life and none coming in form of a miracle or whatsoever, I've lived all my life believing in God, believing in the condemnation of other gods being tagged idol, I've faced alot of difficulties in my life, and each time, i consult a man of God. And the Issue will always lead to praying and fasting, doing midnights prayers and soo on and soo forth, but even after that, am still not moving!
The last one was jst dis January, after consultation,they said the powers from village and ancestral stuffs etc.
i was told to pray, fast. The truth is i always do these praying and fasting with utmost belief, but it all results to nothing, i ask mysef questions.
Everyday powers from here and there,but God is said to be the true God?
My dad have served the lord for a very long while, and I can honestly assure you that he has never saved up to a million in his account, ever since I was Born, we feed from hand to mouth, no savings,nothing!
I've come to wonder cause I've gotten feedup with the lifestyle, why do Christians suffer the most?
Why do God allow his[b] CHILDREN[/b] to suffer the most, why does it seem that Christianity makes one blind, this religious lifestyle of mine has made me decline opportunities which would have gotten me to a better place, now i seem a shadow of myself
My family have suffered for awhile and in everything I do, my major aim is to get my family liberated from poverty, but all to no avail!
Nothing works for me anymore, I've asked questions upon question but still,no answer.
Please, these wealthy people, do the worship a different God, being a believer deprives you of alot of things, being a poor Christian is the worst type of life anyone can imagine!
Everything would be vanity to you, but why?
Because you can't afford those,
How do i get mysef out of this Christian faith, i honestly want to do evil soo as to displease God
I've tried my best doing the right things, in as much I don't want to go short of his glory, but here i am fully short of his Glory, the only thing i could boast about is this life, the only thing a poor Christian thanks God about is the gift of life.
Life is not a gift actually, everybody would still die someday, being alive suffering and watching others die doesn't make you blessed, we die wen our time is due!
if i could trade this life for a better life I would, rather than wait soo I would have a better life at a place where I don't know "HEAVEN"
I've done alot of prayers, i read the Bible, i dont need someone to preach to me, i felt like dropping this, cause it seems like we've been deceived bout this Christianity of a thing,
Its not working!
Christianity is not working, we've abandoned the supposed gods to serve the living God.
But yet, the living God teaches us to accept suffering all in the name of being in the race to heaven,
Does the dead praise the lord?
My life seem to always deteriorate, things Goes from bad to worse,
I belive hard time never last, but as a Christian, there are things that shouldn't come our ways!
How many years do one have to wait for this appointed time of God?
Are we deceiving ourselfs?
I've watched alot of Christian die without getting "Gods time"
I don't know what it feels like to be comfortable, to have even the slightest of riches, but here i am
, always worried about they soo called evil from the village.
An atheist or a non believer, why do the progress?
I need help, I've become a shadow of my self!
Religion seems to have destroyed me,
I urgently need help!

You might have seen most of my comments about traveling about and paying back later, if i see that I'll honestly do it,
I missed and opportunity bcus my believe tagged there deeds evil, but now, after looking into alot of things and doin my research, i dont think that evil is really evil!
R

Hi there.

You seem to have made up your mind even though you keep saying that you need help. I'm not sure what help you need. Do you need help getting out of Christianity? If you do, all that that requires is the cessation of belief in Jesus Christ. That is, all you have to do is stop believing that Jesus Christ, God Who became Man for our sakes, died for your sins. Once you stop believing that, you're no longer a Christian. It may even be possible that you're not even a Christian right now, judging by your words.

I mean that the point of Christianity is not material well-being. It's not about "making it" in this life. I realize that that is what the many false teachers and false prophets and false bishops etc are filling the ears of naive people with, but it is not true. Christianity is about being saved from God's judgment because of our wickedness. That is why Jesus humbled Himself, even though He was and is forever God, and became a Man so that He could suffer and die a terrible spiritual death on the Cross for us. He didn't go through all that so that we can have a million in our bank account. That was not the point. It was so that we would not spend eternity in the Lake of Fire banished from the presence of God and denied of all His good gifts.

If this is not what you want, then you shouldn't be a Christian. There are many atheists, agnostics, deists, even spiritists on this platform who may be able to give you whatever it is you want. I'm sure that they will answer if you call them.

If you do want to be a Christian though, then beware that Christians are soldiers in God's Army and Satan hates them more than he hates unbelievers (and, yes, he does hate unbelievers. He just doesn't bother them too much because they are already his prisoners). The Bible is clear that while everyone suffers in this life, Christians suffer more by far. Among Christians too, the more anyone is zealous for God and His truth, the more they will suffer. That is why Paul says:

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
1 Corinthians 15:19 (NKJV)

This does not mean that Christians don't get what they need to live this life. Jesus Himself says that God makes His rain to fall on both the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). The Psalms teach that God provides sustenance for all things including even the animals (Psalm 145:15, for example). If He does this, why would Christians expect that God will not provide for them? Of course, He does.

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Romans 8:32 (NKJV)

The problem is when someone begins to lust after the wealth of this life. God promises daily provision, timely provision, not amassed wealth. If you want to have wealth overflowing, you are looking at the wrong God. He can and does give it to His Children sometimes, but that is neither what He promises nor what the Scriptures tell us to ask for.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Matthew 6:11 (NKJV)

7 Two things I request of You
(Deprive me not before I die):
8 Remove falsehood and lies far from me;
Give me neither poverty nor riches—
Feed me with the food allotted to me;
9 Lest I be full and deny You,
And say, “Who is the LORD?”
Or lest I be poor and steal,
And profane the name of my God.
Proverbs 30:7-9 (NKJV)

The two prayers above are what the Scriptures teach us to pray. The first was taught us by our Lord Jesus Himself. The second was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We would be wise to have that attitude to the things of this world.

Please understand. I'm not saying that wealth is bad or that you shouldn't demand fair payment for your work. I am only saying that lust for wealth is not a Christian thing. What the Bible teaches us is to be content with what the Lord is pleased to give us for the war that we are fighting in this life. No soldier on the battlefield is looking to amass wealth. He just takes what he needs to survive and fulfill his mission. That is the right attitude to have to our lives in this world.

6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:6-10 (NKJV)

3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
2 Timothy 2:3-4 (NKJV)

Please feel free to ignore my "preaching." My answer was given to make sure that you know what Christianity is about so that your decision can be clear to you. It was also given in case someone else needs understanding in similar matters.

Cheers.

livingchrist:
thank God this your God given wisdom, there is nothing for me to add to this.

Hello sir.

Thank you for your good words.

My point there is essentially that there is no difference between the Israel of God and the nation of Israel. Those who are Israelites in this life but who don't believe are not truly of that nation. Those who are not Israelites in this life but who believe are of that nation. So, believers are all spiritually connected to the affairs of the nation of Israel.

That is a position that it seems to me that you don't accept. It appears to be the basis on which you hold to the pre-tribulational rapture position.

I don't mean to cause any antagonism between us, but I wanted to make sure that the difference between our positions is clear to you and any other person who may be interested.

Donspicey:


Thanks alot sir.......

Wahala for who no believe in God.......


But why do God Blessings take time to manifest


Asin one will pray and pray yet no positive Results

And one will begin to wonder weda God truely cares....one of the reasons many have gone diabolical.....


What is behind the delay?

Very pleased to help, friend.

Life in this world is for testing the human heart. We are here to make an eternal choice: will we believe in and submit to God or will we persist in rebellion against Him?

So, all of our circumstances are structured by the Lord to give us an opportunity to answer that question. Sometimes, the Lord will delay answering a prayer so that we will be able to show either our confidence in Him or our enthusiasm and zeal one way or the other. As I pointed out earlier, if you want something bad enough, you keep demanding it until you get it or else you settle for something. With prayer, we only get what is in God's Will for us to have and we only get it when He wants us to have it.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
James 4:3 (NKJV)

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
1 John 5:14 (NKJV)

18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you;
And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
Blessed are all those who wait for Him.
Isaiah 30:18 (NKJV)

It is possible too that the test is whether we will submit to the Lord's will if He is refusing to give us what we are asking for.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (NKJV)

Donspicey:



Hmmmm.....


New knowledge entirely....


What about the city of Babylon

Are they Believers of the Gospel and why did God say he would destroy it??

The Bible is structured in such a way that you have to circle through the basic doctrines before you go into the more advanced stuff. And as you circle in closer, you get into depths that will stun you. So I encourage you to get on the program of spiritual growth.

You're talking about Mystery Babylon in Revelation? If you are, Mystery Babylon is what the US will be during the Tribulation. Of course, there will be some believers there.

Why does God say that He will destroy Mystery Babylon? Because that is where the Antichrist will come out from. The power of Mystery Babylon will be the basis on which the wickedness that will explode in the world will do so. If the Antichrist did not use it as a launch pad for his world conquest, would he have been able to capture the whole world and rule it? Probably not. So, God lays the responsibility for the spiritual desolation of the world at her feet and destroys her as a result.

Before He does though, He does send out a supernatural warning to all believers to flee from Babylon. So, all those who will be there during the Tribulation will be delivered from that destruction if they listen to God and flee.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Revelation 18:4 (NKJV)

Donspicey:


Nice one.......


Wish i could attain ur level of spiritual understanding......

I certainly pray that you will choose to embark upon spiritual growth (see the link). I am not special, nor should I be. What I have learned and what I have shared with you is the birthright of all believers. It is yours to have if you want.

If I can help you any further, I would be very happy to.

Donspicey:


pls wat are the Difference btw The Israelites,Gentiles and Jews?


And where do we(Nigerian)Christians belong to?

For what it is worth...

Israelites, Jews, and Hebrews all refer to the same ethnic group. There is usage in the Gospels, however, that might give some technical difference in the case of Jews, but it is sufficient for the most part to recognize the three terms as referring to the same ethnic group.

Gentiles are simply non-Israelites. In the Old Testament, they are sometimes called strangers or foreigners especially if they moved to Israel to live there.

Nigerians are Gentiles. Nigerian Christians are Gentile believers.

Now that we believe, we have been made part of Israel in a spiritual sense, so God deals with us as if we are also children of Israel. That is what Paul teaches in Romans:

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:16 — Rom 11:18 (NKJV)

This is what he means in Galatians:

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Gal 6:15 — Gal 6:16 (NKJV)

That is, if we believe, it doesn't matter if we are circumcised or ethnic Israelites, faith in Jesus Christ makes us part of the Israel of God. Conversely, if we don't believe, then it doesn't matter if we are circumcised and ethnic Israelites, we are not part of the Israel of God.

This teaching appears to confuse people today. Many of them think that the Israel of God is different from the nation of Israel, but that is not true. Israel is God's own nation. Those who are naturally born to Israel have a better chance of being saved than those born outside Israel, but because these natural Israelites rejected salvation, God offered it to Gentiles and made all Gentiles who accepted it part of Israel spiritually. So, we who believe have become Israelites in a spiritual sense.

Let me explain this a little further. We remain Gentiles in the flesh. We don't have Jewish traditions. We were not given the Law. So we ought not to go crazy and start trying to keep feasts and making sacrifices. We are still Gentiles. God did not call us to stop being Gentiles in that sense (which is Paul's point in Romans 2:14-15 and also part of the meaning of 1 Corinthians 7:17-20). We were called instead to live according to the faith that set Abraham apart and made him the one that God was going to raise a special nation out of. So, the issue is one of faith. If we have the faith that Abraham had, then we too are his spiritual kin (Romans 4:9-12).

The spiritual side of things goes a little further. After the Resurrection, the Lord Jesus will evaluate all believers of the Church Era (that is, all believers from the beginning of human history until the Return of Jesus Christ). These believers are the Bride, the Israel that God is calling out of the world. When we are evaluated, we will also be sorted into different tribes according to our works.

The twelve tribes are twelve eternal divisions of eternal Israel. The chief of these tribes is Judah. So, the highest performing believers will be sorted into Judah eternally. The least of these tribes is Dan, so the worst performing believers will be sorted into Dan. This means that even those who are Israelites in the flesh today may not remain members of their natural tribes in eternity. On the other hand, even Gentiles will become eternal Israelites, some of whom will be members of Judah even.

In short, while we are Gentiles in this life and while we must not pretend to have the same calling as Jews in this life, we are to strive to be sorted into the most celebrated tribes of Israel in eternity because spiritually we are Israel.

Donspicey:



Mehn you have gone very deep in Learning and understanding the Bible....

Well growing up i was exposed to different doctrines Frm Pentecostal to Catholic to JW infact to different interpretations of the Bible..

On the long run i got confused and stopped going to church...instead i study the Bible and decides to Believe only what is Biblical but damnn person no fit understand everything all alone....i had to continue searching for more interpretations..Not easy but i thank God for his Grace,Wisdom and Strenght to keep studying the word of God....


Bible talked about 666,the number and the person behind it.....do u have any idea about that?


Am also suspecting The Newly elected President of States as of the Antichrists....

In fact, no one can understand the whole Bible without a pastor-teacher.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting...
Eph 4:11—14 (NKJV)

It is Jesus's Will that everyone should have a pastor-teacher to teach them the truth. If we are honest, we will be able to get quite a bit out of the Bible when we are reading it by ourselves without a teacher, but one cannot come to spiritual maturity without a pastor-teacher. One must have someone to guide them through the labyrinth of the truth so that they come to see the whole thing and how everything is connected to each other in the Bible.

As for the number six hundred and sixty-six, it is the number of the Antichrist. It will only become available as a mark after the Antichrist has declared himself God to be worshipped by all. His name and his mark will become a tattoo required by law for all to have either on their forehead or on their right hand in order to be accommodated as part of human society. Those who don't have either will be persona non grata. Such people will be treated like deadly criminals or, at least, worthless members of society

There will be many who will attempt to ingratiate themselves with the Antichrist's officials by selling out their own family and friends and former comrade-in-arms because these people don't have the mark.

The number is a calculation of his name. We don't know his identity or even what paradigm will be used to calculate this number. Until the Tribulation, we can't be sure what the Antichrist's identity is, nor does it even matter, since those who know the Bible will be able to identify him once the Tribulation starts and others will be able to identify him once he has conquered the whole world and taken the Temple in Jerusalem for himself. We are given what the number is so that when the time comes, anyone who is still unsure will become sure.

As for the president of the United States, there are reasons why he is not the right candidate, not least of which is that we are not in the Tribulation yet. Those who will be able to identify the Antichrist before the midpoint of the Tribulation because of understanding in Bible teaching will still need to wait until the start of the Tribulation to be able to tell who is most likely to be him. That is why I counsel anyone who will listen to not bother speculating before the Tribulation begins.

Donspicey:



Very Very interesting explanation.....

No wonder some Christians lose faith in Christianity cause no one to explain the Bible to their understanding

One more question sir......


Among the seven Seals and their plaques in Revelation 6 are we experiencing any of them or its a future occurence??


Cause i hv been thinking weda we are on the fourth seal due to what have been going on around the world....


Violence,Inflation,Famine,Deaths everywhere

Quite true, although I wouldn't say that there's no one to explain the Bible. There are gifted and prepared Bible teachers. The question is how determined we are to find and receive correct Bible teaching. God tests every heart in this world. One of the ways that He does so is by not giving us what we want the very first moment we ask for it. If we want the Truth, then we will persist in seeking it, asking for it, and knocking on the door to it until we are given it. If we don't, then after a few attempts, we may be satisfied with something inferior to it. That would be a failure on our part.

18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you;
And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
Blessed are all those who wait for Him...20 And though the Lord gives you
The bread of adversity and the water of affliction,
Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore,
But your eyes shall see your teachers.
Isa 30:18,20 (NKJV)

I searched for a long time myself. I was born into the Methodist Church, but my mother's side of the family was Roman Catholic. I grew up with exposure to all kinds of "Christian" traditions including the Jehovah's Witnesses. I personally elected to join the Pentecostal/Word of Faith movement when I came of age. It was just a journey through church after church all in pursuit of clear and correct teaching of the Bible until I was past my 29th birthday. That year was when I stopped going to church. It still took another two years before God miraculously brought me to a pastor-teacher who trained me in the Scriptures. The ministry is at https://ichthys.com if you're interested. I'm still training for my pastor-teaching ministry under his guidance. Maybe this is the end of your own search. I certainly hope that you find it to be so.

About your question, no, nothing in the seven seals is happening yet. The seven seals are trends of events that will begin occuring once the Tribulation begins. The Tribulation has not begun in spite of all the happenings in the world. I don't mean that earthquakes, tsunamis, wars, etc are not happening. I only mean that the Tribulation variety of these things has not begun yet.

Still, it is not right to dismiss the events going on now. Anyone with even half an honest brain cell knows that things are speeding up. That makes sense because Satan knows that the time for the final showdown is very short now. He is setting things in motion and preparing the world for the Tribulation. The Tribulation is going to polarize the world like nothing has ever done. There will be very few people indeed in the middle once it begins. I personally doubt that there will still be atheists beyond the 4th or 5th year of the Tribulation. The Antichrist is going to call himself God, after all, and demand to be worshipped. There will also be all sorts of frequent supernatural occurrences, but then free will is a real thing, so it is possible that in spite of all of that, some people will still be insistent that there is no God. But the fact remains that the vast majority of the population will either be red-hot Christians or red-hot unbelievers who can't wait to rid the world of Christians.

Because of this, Satan is working very hard to prime the human race for that time. That is partly why things are looking like they are. The time is very short now.

How will we know when the Tribulation begins though?

5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:5 (NKJV)

The above describes global phenomena that will occur at the same time. That is, there will be a worldwide earthquake that everyone on the earth will experience. There will be thundering, lightning, and literally, voices that will be heard from heaven all over the world. Once that happens, any believer who has been diligent in learning the Scriptures will know that the Tribulation has begun.

To confirm, the observer can look out for the trends described by the seals.

1. Someone will seize power in the most powerful and richest nation on earth in a cunning but illegal way. Then that person will somehow gain power over all of Europe, that is, over the territories once ruled by Imperial Rome. Then he will start a fight with another person who is ruling over all the Islamic territories at that time (which means that there will be a consolidated Islamic bloc at that time).

2. Social institutions will fall apart. People will become quite cruel and dangerous to deal with because they will no longer respect law or tradition or culture.

3. There will be incredible economic collapse in Europe, but it will be artificially achieved. It will not be because of natural causes. They will be the direct result of policies instituted by the despot in #1 above.

4. There will be accelerated mortality in Europe as a result of the wars that will be fought between Europe under this charismatic individual and the Middle East/Africa under his counterpart; the economic measures; the destruction of decency in communities in that part of the world.

These are the main events of the first half of the Tribulation. They will cause the great apostasy because of those believers who did not prepare themselves for the hard times about to hit them. Any student of the Bible (that is, any diligent believer) will know from even #1 who the Antichrist is. But the rest of the world will not know until the middle of the Tribulation when he will have defeated the Islamic bloc and taken control of all the armies and nations of the world. At that time, he will kill Moses and Elijah and seize control of the Temple in Jerusalem and declare himself God and demand to be worshipped.

Seal #5 describes the martyrdom of believers that follows that claim. As soon as the Antichrist sets himself up as God, he will turn his attention toward destroying everyone who does not agree with this view of himself. Some unbelievers will, of course, refuse to worship him, but what pain awaits those who neither belong to Christ nor are willing to worship the Antichrist! Still, some of them will be preserved until the Return of Christ, at which point some of them will believe. Believers, on the other hand, will die in droves at this time.

Seal #6 covers God's response to the persecution of believers at that time. This is seen in the seven bowl judgments that will culminate in the Return of Jesus Christ to destroy the Antichrist and all of those who support him.

Seal #7 only opens the Tribulation. There is no trend associated with it.

Donspicey:



@bolded..This is what i read:

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



Do satan still have access to see and communicate with God

Cos u said that He does go to the third heaven to accuse believers before God....

As I attempted to explain, this casting down is what happens at the midpoint of the Tribulation to trigger the Great Tribulation of the second half of that period. It did not happen in the past. It is yet to happen in the future even today.

As one commenter here has demonstrated, it is often misinterpreted to be a past event because of what Jesus said in Luke 10:18. In fact, in both passages, these are prophecies of what was yet to happen.

Satan has not been cast out of the heavens yet, and yes, he still goes before God to accuse Christians. Of course, God does not listen to him because Jesus has paid the price for all sin, but he does go.

In Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:16, there are other descriptions of Satan's expulsion from God's Presence, but again, these are prophecies. They are not the only prophecies that were given in past tense. Other examples are Revelation 2-3 that is a description of church history after the death of the apostles, much of which was still future at the time of John's writing; Isaiah 54:1, which is a description of Israel in the Millennium; Deuteronomy 32:15-18, which is a description of Israel's later apostasy that would happen between the time of Jeroboam son of Nebat and the time of Hoshea, the last king to rule over the Northern kingdom and of Judah's between the time of Manasseh and the time of Zedekiah.

What it means when prophecy is made in past tense is that God is emphasizing the certainty of the prophecy. It's like saying that something will surely happen no matter what. Of course, there is nothing in the Plan of God that will not happen. When He makes emphases like this, it isn't because there is any real fear that what He says may not happen. Rather, it is in order to put beyond any human doubt that something will happen. Satan will surely be cast out of the heavens. The reader is to take absolute confidence in that. We are to be encouraged with the certainty that this war will end and God will surely win. That is what these prophecies say to us, not that the war is already over or that Satan is already out of the picture. Neither is the case yet, although they will most certainly be in the near future.

Donspicey:



Heaves a sigh......


Very Deep.....


Who was the Great Angel in Rev 10


But the Bible said that 12,000 people will be chosen from the 12 Tribes of Israel i.e 144000 God's elect to rule with him in Heaven for ever while other believers will reign with christ here on Earth.....

Revelation 14:1-5, 12 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The angel was a demonstration of Christ. That is, he was used to show John what the return of Jesus Christ was going to be like. That was to encourage him and the reader because of what would soon follow in the prophecy that John was being given. In short, the appearance of the angel at that point was to focus the reader's attention on the Return of Jesus Christ beyond the terrible persecutions of the Great Tribulation that was just about to follow. These persecutions are what made the little scroll indigestible for John. Those of us who believe enjoy learning about the Return of Jesus Christ, but living through the Tribulation is going to be very difficult indeed, so difficult that many of us will fall away from the faith. The only way to get through the persecutions of that time is to keep our gaze on Jesus Christ and maintain the hope of His Return in our hearts until the very end.

I've never seen any passage in the Bible that says that 144 000 people will reign with Christ in Heaven while others will be on earth. Not one. I have read this instead:

1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: 5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; 8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Revelation 7:1-8 (NKJV)

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Revelation 14:1-5 (NKJV)

Not one mention of their reigning anywhere with Christ or their being in Heaven while others are on earth. These are mere fabrications of Jehovah's Witnesses and others who have no respect for the Scriptures.

These 144 000 Jewish men are truly believers, yes. They are truly special, yes. But they are not separate from the rest of us. They are special because they are just like the apostles. During the Tribulation, they are Jewish men who will come to be saved and follow the ministry of the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) under whom they will grow to spiritual maturity and begin their own ministry as evangelists and teachers specifically sent to fellow Jews around the world to prepare them for the return of Israel's King. They will be unique in many ways. And every last one of them will be martyred. In fact, along with the two witnesses, they will be the grand opening for the persecution of believers in the Great Tribulation. That is why the Bible calls them the first fruits from among men. They will be the first cohorts of martyrs in the Great Tribulation. But they are not going to be in Heaven while other believers will be on earth. There is no biblical evidence for that.

Like other believers, when they die, they will be taken to Heaven to rest from their labors on earth. They will remain there until Jesus returns to the earth when they along with all other believers who died and will die until that time will also come back with Him in their new eternal bodies.

As I have said already, after the Resurrection, we will all be evaluated by the Lord Jesus and then our eternal ranks will be awarded to us. They will receive their own ranks too. Then they will rule with the rest of us over the whole Earth. In the new Universe that Jesus will also create, they will be on the new Earth with all the rest of us, since even the Father will be on the new Earth with all of us then (Revelation 21:2-3).

Ihedinobi3:


I don't know any part of the Bible that teaches anything about a rapture. Of course, the Latin translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the word from which "rapture" is derived to translate the Greek for "caught up," but that does not really mean that there will be any stealing away of human beings from the earth by the Lord. It only means that at the Resurrection, all the saints will assemble in the air with the Lord before He begins His vengeance on the armies destroying Israel at the time of His Return.

Everything I have ever read in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation speaks to the fact that the Lord Jesus will return at the end of the seven-year Tribulation (the second 3.5-year half of which is called the Great Tribulation) to resurrect the Church. That is what I believe and teach.

It is at that Return and after He has resurrected all believers, that is, given them new glorious and eternal material bodies to live in with Him forever that He will enter into battle against the Antichrist and all the armies of the earth that will be at Jerusalem at that time (Matthew 24:29-31; Zechariah 13:7-14:21, cf. Ezekiel 5:1-4).

Eschatology is a very large subject. In fact, it uses and requires a solid understanding of all the teachings of the Bible, so getting into it can be pretty challenging for both of us, not to mention the various erroneous and emotionally charged interpretations abroad that would probably continue to require address just to get them out of the way.

Suffice to say that the war between Satan and God that led to the destruction of the first perfect universe and the creation and fall of man will finally enter its last legs in the Tribulation. Since being a believer makes any human being a member of God's Army on earth, it is really ridiculous to think that we will not be here to fight at that time. We will be. After the intense seven-year battle that will result in the apostasy of a full third of the Church and the martyrdom of another third, the Lord Jesus will return to resurrect all those who believed from Adam and Eve until the last one to believe just before His Return. Then He will destroy the Antichrist, his armies, and all those who took the mark of the Beast.

There will be very few human beings left alive (compared to the billions living now) after the war of Armageddon (an inspired puzzle that refers to Jerusalem).

The Lord Jesus will then renew the earth. For example, the Dead Sea will be made fresh again. The mountain on which Jerusalem stands will be elevated to be the highest mountain on earth. Deserts will become lush forests. Animals will cease to be wild and dangerous. Even natural carnivores like lions will feed on plants. The very seasons will change, reverting to the time before the Flood when there was no cold winter or hot summer. There will be no more weapons and standing armies on earth. Nations and languages will continue to exist, of course, but now they will operate in a more harmonious and more peaceful manner. All disputes between nations will be settled by the Lord Jesus Himself.

It will be the most prosperous, most beautiful time that humans have ever had on earth, not counting the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned. The spiritual kingdom ruling over the world at that time will be the Kingdom of Heaven headed by Jesus Christ and administered in varying degrees and various capacities by the resurrected saints of the ages before that time. That is, after the Church has been resurrected and, as one of the seven Thunder Judgments (Revelation 10:3-4; not the right medium here to explicate these judgments) to be administered, they have been evaluated according to their works of faith, each one will be given their position in Jesus's worldwide government in the Millennium with some earning a much higher rank than others.

It is the saints then who will rule over the earth with the Lord Jesus, not Satan and his demons anymore.

There will still be unbelievers in those thousand years, and some of them will break the law, but the punishment for disobedience will be so severe (death, in fact) that very few indeed will dare to test the Lord Jesus like that. If a nation refuses to send delegates to the annual assemblies at Jerusalem, for example, they will suffer droughts until they repent (Zechariah 14:16-19). Suffice to say that it will be as perfect a world as it can get with human beings who still have a sinful nature living in it. There will be very few deaths too (Isaiah 65:20). Many of those who start the Millennium will actually live through it, just as it once was before the Flood, only better.

At the end of this time, Satan will be released from the Abyss to test humanity again. In short order, he will foment a rebellion against the perfect government of Jesus Christ. That will result in the destruction of this universe. Then there will be a final Judgment of Millennial believers and then of all unbelievers from Cain until the last unbeliever to die.

After that Judgment, the Lord Jesus will create a new Universe to which the Father will return to live with all believers and elect angels forever. All unbelievers along with Satan and his fellow rebel angels, on the other hand, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer there eternally.

In short, yes, it is after the Great Tribulation that the Lord Jesus will return to rule over the whole world. But, no, there is no such thing as a rapture.

PS: I forgot to explain what I think your question really is here, Donspicey. I think that you are asking what Revelation 12 actually means.

At that point, John was given both a flashback and a flashforward.

First, he was shown Israel producing God's Messiah, the bone of contention from the beginning. Satan wanted God's Throne from the beginning. He was made the preeminent creature in the universe, God's very own "bodyguard," but that did not satisfy him. He wanted to be God Himself. Well, God was not going to give Him His Throne. Rather, God made Man and gave him Satan's old position as ruler of the earth. Man sinned and gave away a considerable portion of that authority to Satan. But this only triggered the Promise of the Messiah Who would come and take all that Satan once had.

That Messiah is Jesus Christ. His first Advent was not a warrior Advent. He did not come then to conquer and reign. He came to face tests and offer His Life as a ransom for the world that God loves, the very opposite of what Satan did when he ruled over God's earth. Satan attempted to wrest the earth from God and make it his own, destroying it in the process. Jesus came to win it back for the Lord God even at the cost of His Own Life.

So, of course, Satan tried to destroy Him. Interestingly, this image of a dragon waiting to destroy a baby boy is very reminiscent of what Herod did when the wise men told him of the birth of the Christ. Satan tried many times and in many ways either to physically destroy the Lord Jesus or to get Him to sin so that He would fail in His Mission. He failed on both counts. When he did succeed at killing Him, it only destroyed his own war plan. By killing Jesus Christ, he made the Sacrifice for all human sin happen. That effectively lost the war for him.

Since the time that that happened, there has been a truce of sorts between God and Satan in the Heavens. Daniel 10:13,20 shows that there was war going on in the heavens above us (not in the Third Heaven, which is God's Battle Headquarters and His current Abode, just the atmosphere and the second Heaven that we call space). But both Daniel 12:1 (Michael's standing up) and Revelation 12:7 indicate that war will break out again in the heavens. You can see from these latter two passages both that there was no war going on up to that point and that war began again at that point. This is because Jesus effectively ended the war with His sacrifice on the Cross. The Messiah was born. He lived without ever sinning. Then He paid the price for human sin on the Cross. Satan was not able to stop any of that.

Then, obviously, Jesus returned to the Third Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, having earned by His Obedience as a Human Being the right to rule over all of God's creation.

What did Satan do right after? He could no longer touch Jesus Himself, so ever since then, it has been the Church that he has been attacking and persecuting. The Church has been attacked either with physical persecution or with spiritual corruption since Jesus went back to Heaven until now. And Satan has not done his worst yet.

When the war breaks out in the heavens again, Michael and his cohort of angels (he is one of seven archangels, so he controls only a fraction of all of the angelic armies, but they are sort of the special forces of heaven because Michael's position is a special one) will attack Satan and throw him and his own angelic followers out of the first and second heavens. They will be forced to limit their operations to the earth. This will happen at the midpoint of the Tribulation. That is, in fact, what will trigger the Great Tribulation.

It is because Satan will have lost his place in the heavens at that time (up to that time, the Bible calls him the prince of the power of the air and he does go to the Third Heaven to accuse believers before God, so no, the idea that he fell from heaven some time in the distant past is false and unbiblical) that he will begin a systematic effort to try to kill every last believer in the world through the persecutions of the Antichrist at that time. If he succeeds, then God would have failed in at least one of His Promises, thus proving that Satan's lies about Him might be true.

Of course, he won't succeed. He won't succeed at destroying the nation of Israel partly because a group of believing Israelites will be delivered by the Lord through the command to flee once the Antichrist's idol is set up in the outer court of the Temple in Jerusalem. Those believers will flee toward the South-East where no army sent by the Antichrist will be able to reach them. When one is sent, the Lord will cause the earth to swallow them up (Revelation 12:15).

When he sees that he has failed to catch these believing Jews and kill them, Satan will turn his attention toward killing all Gentile believers. That is why the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation is called the great tribulation. It is a period of intense persecution meant to cause believers to give up their faith in Christ or else to die.

Of course, although many believers will be killed, many will survive to see Jesus return. So, Satan will lose on all fronts.

This is what John was given to see in Revelation 12. Revelation 11:15-15:8 is a description of the stage of the war after the first half of the Tribulation. It essentially sets the stage for the Seven Bowl Judgments that begin in Revelation 16. It explains why the saints are about to suffer, how Satan sets things up (the summoning of the Antichrist and his prophet) for that persecution, and the suffering itself so that the reader can understand why the Seven Bowl Judgments follow.

Please let me know if there's anything you need explained further.

Donspicey:



I was thinking that Jesus coming to take over rulership will be after Rapture and the great tribulations.....

I don't know any part of the Bible that teaches anything about a rapture. Of course, the Latin translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the word from which "rapture" is derived to translate the Greek for "caught up," but that does not really mean that there will be any stealing away of human beings from the earth by the Lord. It only means that at the Resurrection, all the saints will assemble in the air with the Lord before He begins His vengeance on the armies destroying Israel at the time of His Return.

Everything I have ever read in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation speaks to the fact that the Lord Jesus will return at the end of the seven-year Tribulation (the second 3.5-year half of which is called the Great Tribulation) to resurrect the Church. That is what I believe and teach.

It is at that Return and after He has resurrected all believers, that is, given them new glorious and eternal material bodies to live in with Him forever that He will enter into battle against the Antichrist and all the armies of the earth that will be at Jerusalem at that time (Matthew 24:29-31; Zechariah 13:7-14:21, cf. Ezekiel 5:1-4).

Eschatology is a very large subject. In fact, it uses and requires a solid understanding of all the teachings of the Bible, so getting into it can be pretty challenging for both of us, not to mention the various erroneous and emotionally charged interpretations abroad that would probably continue to require address just to get them out of the way.

Suffice to say that the war between Satan and God that led to the destruction of the first perfect universe and the creation and fall of man will finally enter its last legs in the Tribulation. Since being a believer makes any human being a member of God's Army on earth, it is really ridiculous to think that we will not be here to fight at that time. We will be. After the intense seven-year battle that will result in the apostasy of a full third of the Church and the martyrdom of another third, the Lord Jesus will return to resurrect all those who believed from Adam and Eve until the last one to believe just before His Return. Then He will destroy the Antichrist, his armies, and all those who took the mark of the Beast.

There will be very few human beings left alive (compared to the billions living now) after the war of Armageddon (an inspired puzzle that refers to Jerusalem).

The Lord Jesus will then renew the earth. For example, the Dead Sea will be made fresh again. The mountain on which Jerusalem stands will be elevated to be the highest mountain on earth. Deserts will become lush forests. Animals will cease to be wild and dangerous. Even natural carnivores like lions will feed on plants. The very seasons will change, reverting to the time before the Flood when there was no cold winter or hot summer. There will be no more weapons and standing armies on earth. Nations and languages will continue to exist, of course, but now they will operate in a more harmonious and more peaceful manner. All disputes between nations will be settled by the Lord Jesus Himself.

It will be the most prosperous, most beautiful time that humans have ever had on earth, not counting the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned. The spiritual kingdom ruling over the world at that time will be the Kingdom of Heaven headed by Jesus Christ and administered in varying degrees and various capacities by the resurrected saints of the ages before that time. That is, after the Church has been resurrected and, as one of the seven Thunder Judgments (Revelation 10:3-4; not the right medium here to explicate these judgments) to be administered, they have been evaluated according to their works of faith, each one will be given their position in Jesus's worldwide government in the Millennium with some earning a much higher rank than others.

It is the saints then who will rule over the earth with the Lord Jesus, not Satan and his demons anymore.

There will still be unbelievers in those thousand years, and some of them will break the law, but the punishment for disobedience will be so severe (death, in fact) that very few indeed will dare to test the Lord Jesus like that. If a nation refuses to send delegates to the annual assemblies at Jerusalem, for example, they will suffer droughts until they repent (Zechariah 14:16-19). Suffice to say that it will be as perfect a world as it can get with human beings who still have a sinful nature living in it. There will be very few deaths too (Isaiah 65:20). Many of those who start the Millennium will actually live through it, just as it once was before the Flood, only better.

At the end of this time, Satan will be released from the Abyss to test humanity again. In short order, he will foment a rebellion against the perfect government of Jesus Christ. That will result in the destruction of this universe. Then there will be a final Judgment of Millennial believers and then of all unbelievers from Cain until the last unbeliever to die.

After that Judgment, the Lord Jesus will create a new Universe to which the Father will return to live with all believers and elect angels forever. All unbelievers along with Satan and his fellow rebel angels, on the other hand, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer there eternally.

In short, yes, it is after the Great Tribulation that the Lord Jesus will return to rule over the whole world. But, no, there is no such thing as a rapture.