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 Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 6:41pm On Dec 27, 2020 |
blueAgent: Hi. Just thought to mention to you that your god hasn't struck me yet. How long do you suppose he will take to get to the striking? And how will you know that he has? Also, your post is crazy ironic. You must have been addressing the mirror when you wrote it. 1 Like |
| Religion / Re: Who Are Those That Will Reign With Christ For 1000 Years? by Ihedinobi3: 5:57pm On Dec 26, 2020 |
obonujoker: Hi there. Good questions. 1. This is what the Bible says about the resurrection: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (NKJV) That is, there are three echelons: the Lord Jesus, then all those who are believers before the moment of the Lord's return, and finally all those who believe in Jesus after His return. The very first resurrection ever to occur is the Lord Jesus Himself. This resurrection is not taken into account in Revelation 20:6 quoted in your post, but this is because it is the Resurrection of the Lord, not of those who believe in Him. The first resurrection of those who believe will occur at the Lord's Return (which proves that the idea of a "rapture" is unbiblical). The second resurrection of the saints will occur at the end of the Millennium. 2. Regarding those who receive the mark of the beast, this is what the Bible says: 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11 (NKJV) Receiving the mark of the beast seals anyone's fate. There is no question of what will happen to them. All those who receive the mark of the beast will suffer the judgment of the baptism of fire, whether they go with the Antichrist to try to destroy Israel in the war of Armageddon or they do not. The Lord will consume every last one of them with fire. 1 “And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; 2 and I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north, and bring you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will knock the bow out of your left hand, and cause the arrows to fall out of your right hand. 4 You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD. 6 “And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Surely it is coming, and it shall be done,” says the Lord GOD. “This is the day of which I have spoken. 9 “Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them,” says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 39:1-10 (NKJV) (compare Revelation 19:17-21) The above is a prophecy about Armageddon. Those who don't go to the war but who have the mark of the beast are the ones spoken of in verse 6. They will be incinerated alive. This is the baptism of fire that John the Baptist prophesied about: 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:11-12 (NKJV) 3. Yes I believe that they do. In fact, it is very difficult to produce all the Bible passages that teach that the saints will only be gathered to the Lord at His Return after the seven-year Tribulation the latter half of which is the time of the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist will persecute the saints directly causing the martyrdom of a full third of all true believers who entered that 7-year period. There are way too many of those passages to easily reproduce especially in a context such as a discussion on Nairaland. It is pure fiction that there is any such thing as a rapture that will occur before the Tribulation. Believing such a thing is apt to lead one into apostasy when the pressures of the Tribulation come upon them. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 1:38pm On Dec 26, 2020 |
blueAgent: blueAgent: I would be quite impressed if this god that laid these things on your heart and life were able at all to strike anybody at all. As for your thread, I have said several times that I will not talk with you. You don't care for the truth, and you're abusive. I don't waste my time and energy on people like that. Still, I have answered this madness you wrote up here elsewhere. You can go back to the link I posted earlier and see my responses to your ideas. I have nothing new to add to them. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 8:26am On Dec 25, 2020 |
FirstSon01: Very well then. I’m not sure what you think “ancient and church history” means, but it does include systematic and comprehensive tutelage on such arguments as how the Bible was compiled etc. Interestingly, I was already dabbling in that side of things before the Lord brought me to the pastor-teacher who trained me. That training has corrected and reinforced what I had previously learned by myself. As for contradictions in the Bible, as I said, you never bothered to actually study it under a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, so your claims of contradictions are wildly uneducated. They sound just like the claim of the man who insists that physics is full of contradictions because it teaches buoyancy and gravity at the same time. As for stories not adding up, we’re on a thread where a wannabe pastor-teacher is butchering Bible passages to make wild and foolish claims about hell, so such accusations are a dime a dozen. Obviously, very much in the Bible makes very little sense without the tutelage of a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, so any untaught Tom, Dick, and Harry could pretend either that they can make the “stories” say whatever they want them to say or that they don’t add up. As for your claim about writing up on the errors in the Bible, I’m sure that you can -- you certainly wouldn’t be the first; many such books and articles exist (you may have heard of Bart Ehrman, you’ve got a long way to go to catch up to him in that) -- but whether or not such a work would contain truth is a different matter altogether. As for the Bible being incomplete, you are certainly free to believe whatever you want. That you believe something does not mean that it is true. Certainly, the Old Testament has no binding force on believers; certainly, many of the laws of Moses do not fit the Christian reality at all, but there is much that you said in this last paragraph of yours that betrays a wild ignorance of the Scriptures. Nonetheless, believe what you like. Whether that will give you a place with the Lord in the New Creation or give you a portion among those whom He condemns and rejects is all your problem, not mine. I’m only here to warn you, if you have any inclination at all to listen to me. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 3:05pm On Dec 24, 2020 |
FirstSon01: Bible quizzes were normal to my childhood experience except for one thing. I had and still have a terrible memory, so quizzes that required verbatim recall of Bible passages and specific verses and chapters were almost guaranteed to be failures for me. I can find almost anything in the Bible today, but even now I can rarely remember the exact rendition of any passage or the exact verse where it is. I find things by context and I recall by paraphrasing. Memory is still my weakness. Also I was never a children's pastor, but I used to lead Bible studies. I was an usher for a little bit too. Where I was most visible was around music -- I used to sing. So, somewhat similar story here. The difference between me and you, it would seem, is that I persevered in seeking the truth. I never doubted the authenticity and reliability of the Bible nor did I ever find a meaningful reason to even want to. I found fault with every single church I ever attended, with every pastor that I ever tried to submit to, with every teaching ministry I ever came across, with every book/article I ever read, with every televangelist that I ever watched, with even my own interpretations of the Bible, but never with the Bible. I have never had any reason at all to doubt the Bible's reliability, but pursuing understanding in its teachings was a back-breaking task. Because I distrusted even common sense and every other authority in my life, I couldn't make anything of worth out of my life with my considerable talents until I understood what the Bible teaches. This is not absolutely necessary to everyone's experience. The sacrifices I made and still make are my own path, but everyone is called to patience in following the Lord. 18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him. Isaiah 30:18 (NKJV) Although the Lord is really the one waiting for us, since our hearts are calloused by our love of sin and it generally takes several divine operations to bring us around to readiness to receive His truth, we have to demonstrate our own sense of value for the truth by waiting however long it takes and sacrificing whatever we have to in order to get the truth, if we really want it. We do this very thing with everything that we really want, after all. For all the complaints about anything at all, no one who really wants a PhD in, say, physics, drops out just because it takes so long or because your mates make far more money than you for years after you finish your first degree. If it is that important to you and you think that the payout is both worth it and certain, then you will grit your teeth, do the program, and graduate. This sense of value for God's Truth is something that I have found missing in atheists and even in many Christians, because very few people are interested in the Cross that Jesus warned everyone who might have a mind to follow Him about. 23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:23-26 (NKJV) The idea of the Cross touted in Pentecostal circles now is that it is this brief period of material suffering that serves as a prelude to great material wealth. That is sheer madness. The cross of the Christian is a lifelong war against the influence of the ways of this world over him or her and against his or her own desires that oppose God's Truth revealed in the Bible. It is a steadfast rejection of all things that do not submit to God. So, it is hardly brief nor connected to material wealth. This is often the problem. In your case, you just unilaterally reached a verdict on the Bible and closed it so that you could fashion your own way independent of God. Why? Because God did not show up at the time you demanded that He do and because He did not do things the way you thought that He should. But He is God, so why should He come at your beckoning or operate according to your demands? This then is the difference between me and you: I don't believe that I am God, so I do not have any illusions about my right or ability to command reality, but you do. I am willing to live under the limitations of my circumstances, to accept limitation as a creature made by God, but you are not. Not that I am judging you or anything you've done, I'm just contrasting the definition of a Christian with the definition of an atheist. Now, with respect to your invitation at the end, I do not decline, but I'll tell you what I've told at least one other atheist: You can't persuade a man with good eyes that the sky is blue. If a seeing man looks at the sky and insists that it is green, you have absolutely no chance of convincing him otherwise. If he does not trust his own eyes, why should he trust you? This is a demonstration of how free will works. If you expect me to give you answers that will persuade or convince you of anything, you will be quite disappointed. We choose what we believe. All of us do. Not that the truth is hard to see for oneself, rather it is because we have the ability to ignore the truth and pretend that it is something that it isn't. If you think I'm selling you a load of hogwash, consider flat-earthers. Have you ever tried to convince a flat-earthers that the earth is really a spherical-ish thing? You'll appreciate what I mean then. If, as far as you are concerned, the Bible is contradictory and incomplete, then nothing I say will make a difference to you. If, on the other hand, you are willing to see if maybe you are wrong about that conclusion, then maybe I can help you. But beware that you can deceive your own self about whether you are willing or not to see such a thing. The heart of man is a very deceitful and desperately wicked thing. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 5:48pm On Dec 23, 2020 |
FirstSon01: Hi there. This is a common claim from atheists, but I've never seen it backed by any actual evidence. Why do you feel so sure that you know the in's and out's of Christianity just because you were one before? Do you understand that Christianity is more than just that Gospel that we hear to become saved? Many people, the vast majority of Christians in fact, never get beyond that rudimentary level of faith. Very few grow spiritually, much less become spiritually mature, at which point the full outline of biblical teaching has been apprehended by them. Even fewer progress any further to get more and more mature in the truth. The very highest level of Christianity is attaining to ministry, that is, getting to a point where the Christian is able to use their unique spiritual talents -- whatever those may be -- to help their fellow believers to also grow spiritually and fulfill ministry. It is a ridiculous minority that ever gets there. This is not in the least due to the gap between arriving at the threshold of spiritual maturity and becoming worthy of ministry. That gap is the testing phase. Some people think that the Christian Life is hard because of all the temptations we face, but that is nothing at all compared to the tests of maturity. The tests of maturity are a real challenge. Unless a believer passes them, they never get to ministry. It does not mean that we cannot do some things to help others spiritually: We certainly can, but full-fledged ministry is the spiritual equivalent of finally landing a full-fledged professional career in this world. You simply cannot become a trusted minister in God's house until you have proved your love for the Church by suffering through different sets of difficulties for her. That involves taking pains to prepare oneself too for ministry. For pastor-teachers, that preparation can include studying ancient and church history, learning the languages in which the original manuscripts of the Bible were written, and learning textual criticism. None of this is a small task at all. Now, if you are an atheist, it is really hard to believe that you took the trouble of seeking out a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher who could teach you everything that the Bible has to teach so that you could grow to spiritual maturity, much less bother to suffer for Christ, to say nothing at all of ministering to fellow believers in deliberately designed ways to help them learn and know the whole Truth of the Bible. If you did any of this, I can't even begin to think how you would be willing to throw all that hard work away. For me, it took all my life to find a pastor-teacher at almost 32. From childhood, I read all manner of literature including the various works of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Roman Catholic way, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Pentecostals, even the Reformers, all in a bid to try to understand what I read in the Bible. I destroyed career opportunities I had, sacrificed relationships, lost a huge amount of time pursuing understanding of the Bible. I have absolutely no intention of giving up that understanding now for any reason. It came at too great a cost, and Heaven knows that when it finally came, it was better than the hope I dared to have of it. I'm still working at qualifying for ministry even now. At what point could I possibly just decide to give it all up? What does this world have to offer that could even begin to rival what I have got so far, to say nothing of what more I hope to get? That is why these claims by atheists such as yourself that you know something about Christianity always leaves me mildly amused and significantly confused. Of course, this is not to say that people who reach a great height in Christianity could never fall away. We could fall even when we are right at the doorstep, but it gets harder and harder to fall away the closer we get to the Lord. That is my point here. I seriously doubt that you know anything that the Bible teaches. But you certainly should know the Gospel that once saved you, although you don't believe it anymore. Maybe you went far enough to also appreciate some of the more fundamental teachings of the Truth, such as the Trinity, the doctrine of baptisms, etc. I don't know. But it is hard to imagine that you went the whole hog and then realized that it was nothing worth having. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 2:28pm On Dec 23, 2020 |
blueAgent: blueAgent: blueAgent: Well, you certainly have the advantage of me here. As long as this is a lying and insulting contest, I have no chance of winning. As for the issue of discussing things multiple times, I wasn't speaking of repetition. I myself often repeat things I teach several times. It depends on the context, and as I said, I'm here to teach, so if a question is asked more than once, I am likely to provide the same answer more than once. The issue instead is of starting arguments over the same thing multiple times. That need to debate something so many times is often indicative of a deep-seated concern that it is false. Each time that you convince yourself that you won a debate, you hope to convince yourself by that presumed victory that you are actually right. That is why the Bible tells us to stay away from "divisive" or argumentative people after admonishing them twice (Titus 3:9-11). If someone is confident that what they teach is the truth, one of the signs (although it is by no means a conclusive sign that it actually is the truth) is that they stop starting arguments over it. They will answer questions about what they believe when asked. They will independently develop teachings on it too if they are teachers by gifting, but they won't be hunting debates up and down to get embroiled in. That is all I was saying to you. I really don't care what you teach. As I said, I have already satisfied myself that you don't care what the truth is, so I am not about to get mired in meaningless and abusive debates with you. Believe what you please and teach what you like. It is to the Lord that you will answer, not to me. My job is to teach the truth, to warn those who are risking God's Anger, to encourage those who are seeking or persevering in the truth, and to answer the questions of those who need help understanding biblical teachings, not to quarrel with anyone who disagrees with me or to make anyone believe what I teach. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 9:10pm On Dec 22, 2020 |
blueAgent: https://www.nairaland.com/post/84120168 https://www.nairaland.com/post/84187549 blueAgent: As for this, I really don't understand anyone who thinks that Nairaland is the place to win or lose debates. Who decides who has won and who has lost. You? Me? The audience? This is not Debate Club. I just come here to teach what I know to anyone who wants to hear me. It's not my problem if what I have to say is rejected. I don't control people's free will. So, you can wallow in your bloated sense of meaningless victory. The trouble that you have to deal with is what is coming to you if you are actually teaching lies on this platform and causing children of God to stumble. Everyone of us who dares to speak in God's Name should be careful about that. blueAgent: My point is simply that you are spending a lot of energy on things that you want to sound like you're absolutely sure about. No one does that if they actually think that they are right. Now, I must bid you good night. I really have no interest in discussing with you. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 8:46pm On Dec 22, 2020 |
blueAgent: Of course the topic was different, but what I said is that you have discussed this before elsewhere. Must it be the same topic for you to discuss it? I have no interest in debating with you. I already did it once and established that you have a rather unflinching aversion to the Truth, so I won't waste my time and energy. I was just pointing out that if you really believe these things, you'll stop trying to convince others about it. Those who are confident that something is true don't spend as much energy talking about it as you appear to. That's all I have to say. Make of it what you will. |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 8:17pm On Dec 22, 2020 |
blueAgent: Only that you've discussed this subject at least once before (I think you have discussed it several times, in fact, but I have no time to go through all your topics and posts to find places where you have), so it would seem that you're really trying to convince yourself that you are right about what you believe here. In other words, I think that you have at least a suspicion that you are quite wrong about the things you are saying. But since it is important to you for them to be true, maybe it would be best if you just believed them and stopped bothering to debate them. You will only agitate yourself more and more to no good end. |
| Religion / Re: What Is Ministry All About? by Ihedinobi3: 5:39pm On Dec 22, 2020 |
BelovedSaint: Hello. Is this your own idea or do the Scriptures teach this? If it is your own idea, do you really think it wise to encourage others to believe it? If the Scriptures teach it, where do they? |
| Religion / Re: Understanding The Facts And Truth About Hellfire. by Ihedinobi3: 5:36pm On Dec 22, 2020 |
blueAgent: https://www.nairaland.com/5520177/man-satan-immortality |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 4:57pm On Dec 21, 2020 |
Perfectbeing: I think you meant this response for someone else. I do not believe or teach that the mark of the beast is or will be a chip. I teach what I believe that the Bible says: that it is a tattoo of the Antichrist’s name or number that one can have on their forehead or on their right hand. I also teach that the mark will only become available in the middle of the Tribulation, three and a half years after it has begun. By that time, the identity of the Antichrist will be revealed to everyone. Since none of these things has happened yet, I don’t believe that the mark of the beast is being given yet. I also teach that the mark will not be forced on anyone against their will or administered to them without their knowledge. Everyone who receives it will do so consciously and willingly. |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 4:56pm On Dec 21, 2020 |
sonofElElyon: I don’t think that it is meaningful to debate the meanings of English words and expressions. Online dictionaries are a dime a dozen. If they agree with you, then you are right. If they don’t, then you’re not. I don’t need to add my voice to theirs. You are certainly free to call it anything you want. I write here on Nairaland without including as many Scriptures as I know or can find because this part of my ministry is rather tangential. Here, I try to summarize my answers to make them as accessible as possible to those who come here. I also tend to be in a bit of a hurry when I write here. The interpretation that I provided has a large amount of explanation behind it and I can’t reproduce it all, but it is sufficient to say here that the Scriptures make a point of telling us that the Lord will rule with a rod of iron and dash the nations in pieces like a potter’s vessel (Psalm 2:9). This wouldn’t be necessary if the nations were willing subjects of His Rule. That they are deceived is not proof that they were believers: It is not only believers who are deceived by Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4). The very definition of unbelief is a rejection of Gospel Truth, so those who don’t believe are by definition already laboring under deceit and susceptible to more of the same (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11). I’m afraid you seem to be using the term “the elect” in a way that I do not see the Bible defending. It appears that you have a meaning in mind of your own making. If I am wrong, I don’t mind seeing any Scriptural support that you have for it. What I see in the Bible, for my part, is this: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:1-2 (NKJV) The language above is important. Those who are elected are elected because of God’s knowledge of the future. But believers are called “elect” even while they are still alive because there is a hope and a potential that they will be elected in the end (Hebrews 6:9; 10:39). Just like the term “saved” refers to a state that is really only going to become fully actual after we die holding on to our faith or are resurrected alive upon the Lord’s return, “elect” refers to what we will be at the end of our walk with the Lord if we remain faithful to the end. Because we have believed right now, the Lord does treat us like His elect unless and until we fall away from the faith, at which point all privileges due to being believers are terminated. But we are elected according to God’s foreknowledge. What that means is that God knows those who will stay true until the end and these are the elect. From the heavenly perspective, only those who get to the end with their faith intact are the elect. From the earthly perspective, on the other hand, if anyone has faith in Jesus, the Lord treats them just like the elect unless and until they apostatize, but being treated like the elect does not make anyone elect. We are only part of the elect after this race has ended for us through death or the living resurrection when the Lord returns. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13 (NKJV) Again, the elect are only known at the end of their walk on earth. So they are those who never fell away during their time on earth. Until their walk on earth is done, they are potentials, not actual elect. When the Lord Jesus said that the elect would have been deceived if possible, He clearly meant that it was not possible to deceive the elect. The reason that it isn’t is that God has ordained that all those who insist on holding on to Faith in God’s Messiah until the end of their earthly lives will do so. A full third of believers fall away during the Tribulation, but two whole thirds either die or survive holding on to their faith until Jesus returns. Isn’t that proof that the elect exists in spite of Satan’s best efforts to deceive them? Doesn’t that demonstrate the truth of the Lord’s prophecy? Let me reiterate: the elect cannot be deceived because they are those who have already finished their walk in this world holding their faith intact. They are those who faced Satan’s lies and refused to believe them. In other words, because we know that there have always been and will always be believers who refuse to be deceived by Satan, there will always be “the elect.” Therefore, it is impossible to deceive the elect. Others may be deceived but those who hold on to the Truth to the end are not. What does this mean for the possibility of falling away? As long as we are still here on earth, we have to fight the fight of faith. If we don’t fight well, we will fall away and fail to be attain to the elect. So, no one who is still here on earth would be wise to assume that they have already been elected and will never fall away. If anyone adopts that frame of mind, they are apt to become careless and susceptible to Satan’s lies (and in that frame of mind, one is already deceived). So, if we are here, we fight the lies of Satan and hold on to God’s revealed truth. If we do so until the end, we confirm ourselves as part of the elect. If we don’t, then we don’t end up elected as God’s heirs. That is why Paul said, 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus Philippians 3:12-14 (NKJV) You are right that some people will be saved “with the skin of their teeth,” that is, it will seem like the Lord went to great lengths to save them even though they essentially wasted their lives. Yes, such people exist. They will be part of the elect if they retain faith in Jesus Christ until the end of their earthly lives. Will there be those who threw away great rewards in order to fall back into unbelief? It is hard for me to believe that there will be such people, but it is certainly possible, since obviously as long as we are still in this flesh, we have the fight of faith to fight. This real possibility is why Paul wrote the verse that you quoted from 1 Corinthians 10:12. Although spiritual maturity does mean that we have become harder to deceive about the truth, even the mature would be foolish to get careless and think that they can never fall away again. This is a fight to the finish. Still there is good reason to wonder if anyone who makes it that far would ever fall away. Spiritual maturity is attained by diligently seeking, learning, believing, and applying the whole realm of Bible truth with the help of a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher. It takes tremendous effort and sacrifice. It is incredible that anyone who got that far would just throw it all away to fall back into unbelief. Although Paul warns the Hebrews (mature believers who were going backward at that time) of this, he does say that he had better expectations of them than that they would really apostatize from the faith. If anyone falls away though, even if they reached a very great height spiritually, how could they be part of the elect? What consolation would it even be to them to be known as those who were once part of the elect but fell away? They would still end up in the Lake of Fire. Nonetheless, since the elect are those who hold on to the end with their faith in God’s Messiah (the now-revealed Savior Jesus Christ) intact, obviously falling away after attaining such a great spiritual height means that you are not part of the elect. That’s all there is to it. Again, it is fine to disagree with me and follow your own conscience. Anyone who really wishes to walk with the Lord and is conscientiously doing so will be corrected by the Lord where they are wrong and willing to listen to the Spirit. They may not listen the first few times (which of us does?), but in time they will come around. I certainly did after passing my 31st birthday. So I am not placing any kind of law or obligation on you to agree with me - although I certainly encourage you to). I am persuaded that I have represented the biblical position here accurately, but it is really not my place to decide for you what you should believe. |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 9:41am On Dec 21, 2020 |
sonofElElyon: I think that you are mixing up English meanings. When we say that anything is done by force, we mean that people don't get a choice. That is not what the Bible teaches. People will certainly take the mark out of fear of consequence if they don't, but no one will take it without making a conscious choice to do so, knowing exactly what they are doing. So, it would seem that you and I are in agreement. The only problem may be that you are using confusing words to communicate your position. No one will be forced to take the mark. But everyone will be threatened with dire consequences if they don't. Many will take it out of fear, but some will not take it at all. Some of those who don't take it will suffer those consequences, but some will escape them too. As for some elect taking the mark, you may not have read what I wrote. No member of the elect will take the mark. Some believers will certainly throw away their faith and take the mark. I said that much. The great apostasy is prophesied by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which is also quoted in my first post on this thread. So it is not my position that no believer will take the mark. Some will, but either after they have ceased to be believers or ceasing to be believers by taking the mark. Since such people did not hold on to their faith until the end, they are not part of the elect. The elect is the group of human beings who believe in God's Messiah until the end of their earthly lives. They are not believers only for a while. So you are mixing up two things when you surmise that I might believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine if I believe that no member of the elect will take the mark of the Beast. I believe that it is possible to fall away from the faith and I also believe that the elect are those who never fall away until their earthly lives end. I am aware that Satan will be released after the thousand years of Christ's rule over the world. I know that he will go out and deceive many to rebel against the Lord Jesus. I think that it is reasonable to expect that some of the people who join that rebellion will be people who were believers prior, but the vast majority of those who rebel will be unbelievers who were too afraid to challenge the Lord's rule until Satan came and gave them the push that they needed to erupt into open rebellion. So you may have the wrong idea of what I know and believe. As for what the mark of the Beast is, as I said, believe what you think is true. I believe and teach the Bible. I see no reason in the Bible to think that the mark of the Beast is other than a tattoo. I won't be changing my views on that any time. You are free to believe anything you like. I am only concerned that believing lies will put you in danger of being captured by Satan. If the Bible does not teach something, at the very least we should be skeptical about it. Cheers. 1 Like |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 7:35am On Dec 21, 2020 |
sonofElElyon: I am a pastor-teacher. I teach the Bible, not the opinions of people no matter whether these opinions are held by everyone or by a few people. So, I'm afraid I don't share your position that the mark will be forcibly administered. I don't see that in the Bible. What I see in the Bible is that people will be threatened with economic exclusion, imprisonment, perhaps torture, and certainly death if they do not take the mark, but no one will take it against their will. Those who love the Lord will refuse to take the mark no matter what they might suffer for not doing so. There will even be unbelievers who will refuse to take the mark. These things would be impossible if anyone is forced to take the mark. As for your speculations about the uncertainty of how the Antichrist will come or operate, I also cannot accept your position. If you want to hold on to that, by all means do so, but the Bible does not teach it at all. There is nothing hidden or secretive about the mark of the Beast, not according to the Bible. The Scriptures are clear that it will be a very obvious thing and that it will be a tattoo. If you are not comfortable with limiting yourself to that, then you must do whatever you want with that knowledge, but I am under no obligation either to agree with you or to endorse what you teach nor do I. The Lord Jesus never said that the elect shall be deceived. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24 (NKJV) As it is, the Scriptures are clear that the elect are impossible to deceive. The reason for that is that they are the elect. The definition of the elect is those who believe in the Lord Jesus until the end (Matthew 24:13). Since Jesus Christ is the Truth, those who believe in Him cannot also believe in a lie. If they do, then they no longer believe in Him and are not part of the elect. What the Lord Jesus said was that Satan is going to put in all the effort he has to try to deceive the elect and cause them to fall away. If it were possible for that to happen, it would, but it is not, so it won't. That is not to say that there will be no apostasy. A full third of all true believers will fall away from the Faith during the Tribulation, but everyone who falls away proves by doing so that they are not part of the elect. Those who are elected by God are those who have elected to believe in God's Messiah no matter what happens until they die or the Lord returns to resurrect them, not those who believe for a while and then stop believing. Those who are committed to following the Bible's teachings, keeping close to the Lord are being sober and vigilant. It is not those who ignore or dismiss what the Scriptures teach in favor of what everybody "knows" or what they fear that are being sober and vigilant. If one is paying close attention to the teachings of the Bible, they will not be deceived by the enemy and they will not be confused about what the mark of the Beast is and what it is not. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 7:09am On Dec 21, 2020 |
ibuildstuff: Hello. You probably meant your comment for someone else. I certainly don't fear vaccines. I only don't have implicit trust in everything that "experts" and the government claim is good for me. And I didn't ask to know what the content of the COVID-19 vaccine. I don't care that much. 1 Like |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 8:36pm On Dec 20, 2020 |
sonofElElyon: The thread said that and I was only reiterating my response to it. The number is literal even though it does have a meaning. But it isn't just the number that is the mark. The mark is either the "name" of the Beast or "number of his name." It will only become available after the Antichrist has been revealed and he has claimed the temple in Jerusalem for himself and declared that he is God. These are the things that the Bible actually says. I'm afraid I'm quite dogmatic about things that the Bible states unequivocally. |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 8:07pm On Dec 20, 2020 |
sonofElElyon: Hi I'm not sure that I could say anything more than what I said before. It is obvious that the mark is a tattoo. It can't be a chip and it certainly won't be secretly administered. But you must believe whatever you are persuaded is true. I will only advise that you beware that it is only the actual truth that we believe that sets us free, not just any old lie we like. |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 8:05pm On Dec 20, 2020 |
donchrisk: Hello. I think that 2 Thessalonians 2:1,3 included in the quote in my post are clear that you are wrong. |
| Religion / Re: Is Water Baptism A Necessity For The Holy Ghost Baptism by Ihedinobi3: 8:02pm On Dec 20, 2020 |
HappyRabbi: Hi. The short answer is that water baptism is not a part of the Christian experience at all today. So the question of its necessity in order to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not even arise. 4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5 (NKJV) 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (NKJV) 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8 (NKJV) 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ John 1:33 (NKJV) Water baptism is John's baptism. It was only meant for the Jews of his day in order to prepare them for Jesus Christ. The spiritual principle on which that baptism worked is the same on which the ceremonial washing of the priests worked. 17 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 18 “You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base also of bronze, for washing. You shall put it between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. And you shall put water in it, 19 for Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet in water from it. 20 When they go into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering made by fire to the LORD, they shall wash with water, lest they die. 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die. And it shall be a statute forever to them—to him and his descendants throughout their generations.” Exodus 30:17-21 (NKJV) These ceremonial washings were symbolic. Dipping into water does not really do anything to us spiritually. It doesn't cleanse our sins. Only the Sacrifice of Jesus does that if we believe in the Gospel. But these washings symbolize our reception of the Gospel, of our need for a Savior and our acceptance of the One that God Himself gives to us. 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 3:21 (NIV) As you see from the above passage, the baptism that saves us is not the washing of water. Water baptism only symbolized it. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word Ephesians 5:25-26 (NIV) We are cleansed through the Word of God when we believe it. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. John 15:3 (NIV) It is true that some believers were still baptized in water in Acts of the Apostles. This is because (1)they were Jews who knew of John's baptism and failed to take advantage of it earlier. By partaking in it, they identified with their need for Israel's Messiah, thus readying them to move on to the Cross. (2)The apostles and disciples were still learning exactly what the Cross of Christ had brought about, so they made a few mistakes. The baptism of Christianity is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although in the beginning, that baptism was not instantaneous as soon as one believed the Gospel, today it is. The difference is because the Apostolic Age was the Age of transition from the Age of Israel to the Age of the Church. During that time, it was necessary for Gentiles especially to appreciate that they were being made one with the Jews. Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22), and Gentile believers are made part of the Israel of God because of their faith. In order to drive this lesson home, every Gentile believer needed the Jewish Apostles to come and lay hands on them first before they received the Holy Spirit. When the New Testament was completed and distributed (during the lifetime of some of the apostles), there was no further need for this. In fact, God demonstrated to Peter through the experience of Cornelius and his family that the Holy Spirit was for all who believed, whether Jew or Gentile, but that was a lesson that still took years for even him to learn (see Galatians 2:11-16, for example). With the completion of the New Testament, all Gentile believers had access to revelation that they were made one with Jewish believers although they owed their salvation to the Jews. So instead of the continued practice of laying on of hands for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, all that is required is faith in Jesus Christ. At the point of faith in Jesus, we receive the Holy Spirit. There is now no more delay. You do mention the gift of speaking in tongues, so I understand that this may still be a bit confusing. In Acts, we read that even the very first disciples to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues and we see that this happened in many other instances. These days, that has become the standard for knowing whether we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit or not, but that is an error. On the one hand, this teaching that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues is recent. It began with the Pentecostal movement in the 1800s and it is false. You will see in the Scriptures that there is a significant variety of spiritual gifts. Speaking in tongues is only one of them. Some people who received the Holy Spirit prophesied rather than speak in tongues (see Acts 19:6 for example). On the other hand, gifts such as those were given so that the Gospel would spread faster or so that the truths that were yet to be written down in the New Testament would be attested to by supernatural signs and wonders to encourage those who were willing to believe them. Those gifts are no longer being given in the Church (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). So, judging the baptism by the presence or absence of the gift of speaking in tongues is not biblical. In conclusion, water baptism has nothing to do with faith in Jesus Christ, and speaking in tongues has no place in the Church anymore. Anyone who wants to know if they are baptised in the Holy Spirit need only ask if they believe the Gospel. If they do, then they are. If they don't, then they aren't. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9 (NKJV) 1 Like |
| Religion / Re: Will A Loving God Really Burn People In Hell? by Ihedinobi3: 1:38pm On Dec 20, 2020 |
Nairalandian: That then is what explains a loving God burning anyone in hell. Human parents can spank you or ground you or deny you some privileges when you do certain things, but even though there is a limit on what they do to you, they do it to prevent you following a trend that will eventually cost you more. So, when they spank you for pilfering, they're trying to prevent you bagging a life sentence or the death penalty for armed robbery in the future. You don't say at that time that the beating or denial of privileges that they put on you is disproportionate with stealing, say, one piece of meat or just a hundred bucks. They do what they do to prevent something worse. The Lord God deals with us in a similar manner. Here on earth, He punishes different sins in many ways to warn us of the very worst thing that we are risking: eternal separation from Him and His blessings. That is why tornadoes, pandemics, wars etc happen in this world. If we listen, then we will stop opposing Him and antagonizing Him. If we don't then we risk being cast out of His Presence forever. There are those who think that that is not fair, that God ought to either forgive everyone or else He ought to just destroy completely everyone who sins so that they won't be "tortured" forever in the Lake of Fire. The answer to those ideas are 1. Those who think that they know a better way to deal with sin than punishing sinners in the Lake of Fire forever are pretending to be either more loving or wiser than God. But are they? How many of these people have put their lives on the line for even a good person, much less for their own enemy? God gave His Son Jesus Christ to suffer a fate worse than any sinner can suffer even if they spent all eternity in the Lake of Fire so that no sinner would ever have to suffer for their sin. God did not need to do that. He didn't owe anybody that kindness. He could easily destroy the whole universe and make an infinitely better one without even breaking a sweat. Yet He chose instead to rescue us who rebel against Him at every turn, Who curse Him and abuse and kill His Children at every turn. Even if a beggar only spat on stale bread that you offer him or her, you would want to beat the living daylights out of him or her, but God tolerates this madness from us and continues to gently but insistently call everyone to repentance so that nobody will end up in the Lake of Fire. So, who thinks that they love human beings better than God to decide what their punishment ought to be for sinning? As for being wiser than God, it does not take an impressive intellect to see that human beings are incredible fools by nature. We get even the simplest things wrong. We are forever struggling with simple decisions: Should I get the red shoes with the red bag? Should I marry the pretty girl or the smart girl? Should I pursue a degree in engineering or pursue my dream to be a musician? Even those that we consider the best of us demonstrate some of the most incredible levels of stupidity that would boggle the common mind to contemplate: a brilliant software developer educated to PhD levels having trysts in his office with a secretary while having a wife at home and he's famous too, for example. How does any of this demonstrate that we are smart enough to tell God the right way to punish sin? 2. If God just forgives everyone, then where is His Justice? How is He being fair to those who did what He commanded and to those who suffered at the hands of those who did evil? 3. God made us all to last forever. Why did He do that? Even we human beings tend to judge quality by longevity. Why is it surprising that God's works last forever? It is impossible to destroy anything that God has made. The reason? Because He built it to have it forever. He made us for eternal fellowship with Him. If He did not build us with the ability to last, then we could not have that eternal fellowship with Him, could we? But the flip side of that is that if we don't want eternal fellowship with Him, then we must prefer eternal separation from Him. Since He is true reality, think about what that must mean when people reject God. There is no escaping existence. Once God makes anything, it can never be unmade. This is what the Bible itself says in Ecclesiastes 3:14. The thing is that even though some of those things now exist, it is up to those things to decide how they will exist in perpetuity. That is what free will is about. We get to choose what our eternal experience will be. If we love God, we will be with Him as part of His Family and enjoy all His Blessings forever. If we hate Him, then we will spend eternity denied of His Kindness and Generosity and enjoy only His Rejection, just as our trash enjoys being cast away and burned. Why must a Lake of Fire exist though? Because it is a perfect demonstration of what being rejected by God is. In short, it is foolishness to challenge God's Justice. We are not wise enough to do so. But we certainly are wise enough to know that if your only two choices are between eternal pleasure and eternal suffering, then we should choose eternal pleasure rather than suffering. But insisting that there should be other options especially when we are powerless to create them is madness indeed. 1 Like |
| Religion / Re: Will A Loving God Really Burn People In Hell? by Ihedinobi3: 12:02pm On Dec 20, 2020 |
Nairalandian: Hey there. What do you think? Would a loving God be just? |
| Religion / Re: Who Is A Christian by Ihedinobi3: 11:28am On Dec 20, 2020 |
krebdawise: Hi there It is true that believers (or the disciples, as the passage you refer to -- Acts 11:26 -- puts it) were first called Christians in Antioch. But I'm afraid I see nothing in that passage that suggests that these "disciples" were people who "didn't have time for family, Status or wealth accumulation," as you put it. We should look at the whole passage to see what it actually says -- 19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only. 20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch, spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord. 22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch. 23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord. 25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. 26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11:19-26 (NKJV) As you can see, these are people who believed the message that they were taught by, first, these disciples who fled from Jerusalem as a result of the persecution of believers there and, second, by Barnabas and Paul. That is, the qualification of these people is that they believed the Gospel, not that they didn't have time for family or status or wealth accumulation. That is very important to understand because when we miss what makes anyone a Christian, we become like those who will stand before Jesus and insist that we are qualified to be with Him in eternity because of things we did or sacrificed ostensibly for Him (Matthew 7:22-23). There is only one qualification that makes anyone a Christian: faith in Jesus Christ -- 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 (NKJV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV) This is the most important thing that needs to be said here. There is no other definition of the Christian than one who believes in Jesus Christ. Having said that, we should point out that yes, it is true that after we become Christians through faith in Jesus, there is much that we are called by Him to learn from the Bible so that we can change in our behavior to match the faith that we have. In fact, without moving forward like that, many of us eventually throw our new faith in Jesus away and return to being unbelievers and enemies of God. This is why there is more to Christianity than believing the Gospel that we heard: that Jesus Christ Who is forever God became Man and died for our sins. You'll see in the Acts 11 passage above that Paul and Barnabas spent a whole year in Antioch teaching the disciples there. What were they teaching people who had already heard the Gospel? The answer is the full revelation of this Jesus Whom they had believed in. This revelation is the whole Bible. Granted that at the time the whole New Testament was still being written, Paul and Barnabas were specially gifted as teachers (and Paul was one of the eternal Twelve too) to provide new information that wasn't in the Old Testament and would soon be written down in the New to enable these new believers to grow spiritually and become mature, that is, able to handle the challenges of the enemy in this life without losing their faith in the process. Of course, even believing in Jesus initially requires that we be willing to change the way we look at life, so you are right that it is part of the definition of the Christian to care less about the things of this world than we do about the things of the world to come. But we don't become irresponsible. 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother’; and, He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:9-13 (NKJV) In the above passage, the Lord Jesus Himself was condemning the teaching of the Pharisees and Scribes that those who are serious about God should not be responsible to look after their parents. He made it abundantly clear that they were violating the very Word of God with such a mad teaching. He even left us an example Himself about how we should be responsible for our family -- 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:26-27 (NKJV) Even on the Cross, the Lord exercised his responsibility as Mary's first son by putting her into someone's care, and not just anyone but someone whom He trusted to look after her in every way especially spiritually. You will note that John was the closest one to Him of all His disciples. And the Lord did have siblings including male ones, but they were all unbelievers whereas his mother was a believer. Not that if our parents are unbelievers, we ought not to look after them (not only is there no such qualification in the Mark 7 passage above, there is also no such qualification in 1 Timothy 5:8 ). Rather that we should do our best in looking after them to do so in a way that would be the most spiritually beneficial to them. This should demonstrate that it is not at all His Will that we should ignore the legitimate needs of our family. It is also true that the Lord said the following -- 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Matthew 10:34-37 (NKJV) 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26 (NKJV) But this is a matter of comparison. That is, the Lord is clear that it is impossible to love Him if we place any consideration or priority above Him. This is the same thing that He means when He says that we cannot serve two masters at the same time. If we love our parents more than Him, then we will want to please them even when He has different plans for us. For example, when we make a choice about what career to pursue or what wife or husband to marry, in general, our parents might want to weigh in for reasons of their own, but the Scriptures teach us what we ought to be trying to accomplish by choosing any career that we choose or any spouse that we choose. Will we follow what the Scriptures teach or what our parents want? That depends on how much we love the Lord? If we prefer to follow our parents, then soon enough we may forsake the Lord just because that is what may please them. Whenever we choose to follow the Lord rather, we will eventually find that in doing so, we do right by all those whom we love. So, the better thing all the time is to learn the Lord and live life His Way. It will not make us irresponsible in our attitude to our family, but it will make us more balanced in dealing with our responsibilities to them. We should certainly not be striving for status or wealth in this world, but we should not therefore be striving for ignominy or disrepute in this world. The wise man said 7 Two things I request of You (Deprive me not before I die): 8 Remove falsehood and lies far from me; Give me neither poverty nor riches— Feed me with the food allotted to me; 9 Lest I be full and deny You, And say, “Who is the LORD?” Or lest I be poor and steal, And profane the name of my God. Proverbs 30:7-9 (NKJV) We have to live life in this world. This is where we glorify God with our choices. So we must work for a living and strive for the necessities of life. It is entirely possible that because of the talents and opportunities that the Lord gives to some of us, even a little effort (comparatively speaking) would make us very wealthy or respected or both. That does not mean that we are doing something wrong, but it certainly means that we are in a dangerous place spiritually. Both poverty and wealth are tremendous tests of the human heart. The one is apt to make us resentful of God so that we reject His Leadership, while the other is apt to make us arrogant so that we despise His Rule over us. This is why we shouldn't be striving either to be poor or to be wealthy. Rather we should be praying for and working for our daily bread. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. Matthew 6:11 (NKJV) 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. Ephesians 4:28 (NKJV) 6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you; 8 nor did we eat anyone’s bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, 9 not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us. 10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread. 13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 2 Thessalonians 3:6-14 (NKJV) These things are things we learn as we submit ourselves to tutelage in biblical truth. There is very much indeed that the Bible has to teach us and the Lord has provided the Holy Spirit to enable us to perceive it and pastor-teachers to teach it to us so that we can even learn it at all. Not many of us are bothered to learn what the Bible has to teach and as a result their behavior is pretty bad, it is true. But this does not mean that they are not Christians. It is possible to be a Christian and end up with the Lord in eternity after living a very recklessly sinful life here on earth. But who really wants to do that? The danger of that is that you might find sin too sweet to leave and eventually give up your faith in order to enjoy it fully. 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:13 (NKJV) It is very dangerous to use the grace of God as license for sin. What that results in is continuous discipline from the Lord that grows more and more unpleasant the longer we continue to sin recklessly. At a certain point and if our sin is of the gross public sort (that is, everyone can see that we are sinning), the Lord begins the discipline of the sin into death (1 John 5:16; 1 Corinthians 5:5; compare Romans 8:6). This discipline means that if we do not repent or give up our faith but continue to sin regardless, we will be killed by the Lord so that our faith will be preserved and we will be with Him in eternity while He cleanses His Name from the evil witness that we made about Him with our conduct. Still, we can see that it is only an absence of faith in Jesus Christ that makes us unbelievers or non-Christians, not any behavioral issues. It is not loving our family too much or pursuing status or wealth that makes us non-Christians. We are only Christians if we believe the Gospel. And we are not if we don't. We can become the kind of Christians that the Lord will rejoice in and reward exceptionally at the Return of Jesus Christ, if we want, or we can be the kind that He will rebuke soundly on that day, but as long as we believe, we belong to Him. |
| Religion / Re: Very Soon Nobody Would Be Able To Buy Or Sell Anything Without The Chips by Ihedinobi3: 10:20pm On Dec 19, 2020 |
enilove: Hello I think that the Scriptures are clear that the mark of the Beast is a tattoo, not any kind of chip. The use of the preposition "in" in the KJV is no proof at all that it is an insertion into the skin. Consider the following: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:4 (KJV) One can hardly say that God is going to insert a chip in our foreheads. This is just how King James English works. Other mainstream versions use "on" in place of "in." So I don't believe that there is any biblical reason to begin to panic about biometrics and vaccines, although we should certainly be careful what we allow anyone to put into our bodies, for our health's sake. The mark of the Beast is going to be a very bold declaration of allegiance to the Antichrist. No one will be forced to take it and no one will take it by mistake. Many people will certainly take it out of fear, but everyone who takes the mark of the Beast will do so consciously, fully recognizing the choice that they are making in doing so. As for the end being near, that is certainly true. It's almost fully 2000 years since the Lord Jesus died on the Cross for us. When the 2000 years are up, the Lord will return and resurrect His Church. The specific day and hour of this Return is unknown to us, of course, but the Bible does teach us not only that there will be 6000 years from Adam until the Return of Jesus Christ, but in fact it also gives us very precise information as to the time of year when this Return will occur. Of course, this is not an easy lesson to learn or an easy truth to believe, but the Scriptures bear it out for anyone willing to bother to listen. As the Lord Jesus said repeatedly both before the Cross and after, "let him that has ears hear." Before that Return though, there will be seven years of Tribulation with the second half of that being a terrible time of intense persecution against the Church. In fact, this period serves as a major wake-up call for the generation of the Church that will live to see the Lord return. According to the prophecy in Revelation 3:14-22, that generation is a very spiritually lazy and spiritually arrogant one, so they will not be waiting earnestly for their Lord. They will lose their love for the Truth and attribute their material wealth and good fortune to their great faith when in fact they are spiritually impoverished. This is why the Lord "spews [them] out of his mouth" straight into the Tribulation, to force them to wake up. One full third of their number will apostatize because they are so poorly prepared for the spiritual pressures of the Tribulation. Another third will be killed by the persecutions of the Antichrist. The last third will live to see the Lord return when the armies of the Antichrist have overrun Israel and are pressing to destroy Jerusalem and the third Temple that will be built by Moses and Elijah. Those will be terrible times indeed. The Scriptures record consistent admonitions to the believers of all times that they ought to be alert so that they will not fall away from the faith due to a lack of preparation. Those who are likely to live through that time are admonished even more strongly by the Lord in Matthew 24 about this. We are that generation, the Laodicean Church. Our time is very near the end, scant years in fact. And we are the laziest church that has ever existed and the most arrogant one too. Very few of us even believe what the Scriptures are crystal clear about: that the Lord will only return to resurrect His Church after she has been tested by the reign of the Antichrist over the whole world, something that Paul took pains to clarify to the Thessalonians. Different theologians and wannabe pastors continue to pull all sorts of intellectual gymnastics to explain away very clear Scriptures rather than embrace this truth and get to work preparing for the very pressing times ahead of us. And very many Christians choose to believe them too, as if fearing the truth and wishing it away will change it. 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NKJV) Compare the above to Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:19-20. The two passages put together say exactly the same thing that vv.3,8 above say. First, believers will throw their faith away, then the Antichrist will be revealed, then the Lord will appear and gather to Himself all those believers who remain loyal to Him no matter what they face, and finally He will destroy the Antichrist and everyone who has the mark of the Beast. This is a very straightforward rendering. But when people fear the truth, rather than receive it so that they are strengthened, they distort it and weaken themselves even more making them easy prey to Satan. I could say much more than the above, but let what I have said suffice. Grace be with all God's People. 92 Likes 11 Shares |
| Religion / Re: God The Father Is Impossible! The Bible Is A Scam by Ihedinobi3: 8:16pm On Dec 18, 2020 |
HellVictorinho: I think that you were not just mistaken. You are lying and quite badly too. You obviously responded to my post. So, I did not go against any statement you made. You challenged my post with a claim. You have not since then managed to demonstrate that claim to be worth anything at all. You have instead just kept piling absurdity on top of absurdity and now you wish to make me responsible to prove something to you. Did you provide that link to the post where you asked me to state something? No. Why not? Because the post does not exist. Yet you have claimed twice that you asked me to teach you something or state something. That is what an obvious or shameless lie is. That would be your second lie here. Your very first response to me was "life is an absurdity." Somehow you believe that this does not mean that everyone's life is an absurdity. Do you think that you can explain your use of the word "life" in that statement without somehow creating a blanket experience for everyone? If you think you can, give it a try. Finally, I just finished demonstrating how great a liar LordReed is by providing evidence that for some reason he felt confident enough to claim that I was lying about. You don't appear to have learned from that. Now you think that challenging me with a supposition that I cannot "state" something is going to win you some brownie points. You clearly already lost the thread of this conversation. When you go back and read it, you will probably find more intelligent questions to ask than your "state this" and "teach me that." Until you do though, I'm done with this conversation. Cheers. |
| Religion / Re: God The Father Is Impossible! The Bible Is A Scam by Ihedinobi3: 7:40pm On Dec 18, 2020 |
HellVictorinho: You quoted my post in order to not respond to it? I fear I'm still confused about what you're saying. Could you quote this misinterpretation that I made of your post? I don't see the link to the request that you said you made. Perhaps I didn't miss it after all and you were at least mistaken about that? How is the onus on me to state anything to you? |
| Religion / Re: I Think I'm Going To Die By Being Beheaded by Ihedinobi3: 5:22pm On Dec 18, 2020 |
Incrizz: Hello An excellent attitude. May the Lord grant us all grace to share the same mind with you. 2 Likes |
| Religion / Re: why me? by Ihedinobi3: 4:57pm On Dec 18, 2020 |
Goodness34: Hi there. I'm very sorry for your trouble. Your experience is very likely remarkably different than mine, but I understand being broke and depressed. I can't tell my story here, but suffice to say that I have gone through sufficient pain to understand those who get perplexed with the way of life in this world. Although God has always sustained me and protected me, I have not been completely kept from knowing the embrace of despair and depression. They are old friends of mine. I'm sorry too that I can't help you right now. I don't know you well enough to know the best way to help you or even if I can help you at all, but I will offer you what I can give to any stranger that I happen upon. You probably know of Jesus Christ the Man Who was also God but denied Himself of the incredible privileges of His Deity in order to die for our sins. If you need a Savior, there's no one more fitting for that role. You could suddenly be given a feast right now. You could be made a powerful prince in this world this very moment. You could be blessed with an exceptionally healthy mind and body right now, and all these blessings will not even tip the scale in comparison to being accepted into God's Family as His son. Think about it. This world's wealth comes and goes. This world's respect comes and goes. No matter how healthy we might be, we all die. Not a single human being who has ever lived has escaped death. Even if we think that that does not matter, death is never a pleasant prospect for any human being who is not at peace with God. But in Jesus Christ, we all receive something that will never go or fade or perish. If we are accepted into God's Family, death in this world (and that is the worst thing in this world that human beings can suffer) only brings us straight into His Paradise, a place of enjoyment and pleasure such as this world has no hope of ever equaling in a million years. We would be with God Himself, rejoicing in all His good gifts. This is what believing the Gospel guarantees to everyone who chooses it. I encourage you to believe the Gospel. There is no point to life otherwise. It is true that faith in Jesus does not automatically remove all the pain of life in this world. The Lord never promised us that. In fact, becoming a believer adds more trouble to our lives than what is normal to every human being. But this is what makes that easy: the Lord Himself is with us in everything we face. He strengthens us, comforts us, encourages us, protects us, and carries us on His Wings until He brings us to our place of deliverance, even if that deliverance is ultimately our departure from this world to be with Him. Think about Lazarus in Luke 16, for example. We know that he died poor, sick, disrespected, and beggarly, but as soon as he died, he was in a place envied by the wealthy man from whom he had been begging while alive. It is true that this does not appear very comforting to many of us in this world, but would you really rather have all the sweet things of this life for a few decades and then spend eternity in the Lake of Fire with no family, friends, and most certainly no God showing you any of the kindness and generosity that you were used to on earth? I know my choice there: I wouldn't. That too was Lazarus's choice. He held on to faith in God's Messiah and ultimately that faith was rewarded. Even if he is the least of all the saints, we can be sure that he is wealthier than Jeff Bezos can even begin to dream of being. And while Bezos will die and be separated from all his wealth, Lazarus's wealth is permanent forever. Is God able to rescue you out of this painful spot that you're in? Absolutely! Should He though? I am not wise enough to answer that, and I suggest that no human being is. Many of us insist on a change of circumstances as the best answer to our existence, but we know that many whose circumstances are great are rabid haters of God. That is the unfortunate reality of life. The human heart is ridiculously arrogant. That arrogance is fed by acquisition. The more we have the more resistant we are to God's Truth and His Authority. Only very few human beings in all of human history have ever been able to submit to God in the midst of prosperity and good health. A wise man writing under divine inspiration therefore said, 8 Remove falsehood and lies far from me; Give me neither poverty nor riches— Feed me with the food allotted to me Proverbs 30:8 (NKJV) We can be sure that even in poverty, the Lord blesses us and sustains us: 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. Acts 17:25 (NKJV) 27 These all wait for You, That You may give them their food in due season. Psalms 104:27 (NKJV) 15 The eyes of all look expectantly to You, And You give them their food in due season. Psalms 145:15 (NKJV) Sometimes He does it through the work of our own hands (Psalm 90:17), sometimes He does it through the kind generosity of others (1 Samuel 22:3-4), sometimes He does it through the unwilling obligation of others (1 Timothy 5:8; Luke 16:21), sometimes He does it through supernatural means (2 Kings 17:6), but He always does it. Our God provides for and protects us. We can count on that more surely than we can count on the sunrise. We don't need wealth in this world. We just need faith in God. Please understand: even without faith in God, the wicked are provided for by the Lord (Matthew 5:45). We need faith in the Lord Jesus because that is what makes life worth living at all. Wealth may make life significantly more tolerable and pleasurable, but in the end, the loss of it whether through events in this world or through death is terrible beyond words. To work so hard and have everything snatched from your grasp is heartbreaking, that is why the Bible strongly discourages the pursuit of wealth and the pleasures of this world (see Psalm 73, for example). If you choose to believe in Jesus Christ, you will need to also grow spiritually. It is true that very few Christians actually bother to grow spiritually, so they remain on the edge spiritually, easy to seduce or threaten into giving up their faith in Jesus, but that is not how it ought to be. Growing spiritually enables us to begin to see life from God's perspective. When we start to see things this way, we become truly wise and less panicky about things that happen around us or emotionally invested in our circumstances. So please allow me to encourage you to commit to spiritual growth. You will find that there is tremendous wealth and sustenance in this. To grow spiritually, you need to read the Bible to know what it says, submit to a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher to understand what you read, believe what you hear, and actively and enthusiastically apply what you have believed to your life. It is a very challenging process, but it is well worth the cost. In fact, for those who choose this path, reaching spiritual maturity and holding that position until we depart from this life guarantees the crown of righteousness to us. If we go beyond that to pass the tests of maturity (very painful experiences and challenges that the Lord brings the way of the spiritually mature), then we also win the crown of life. If we go beyond that to fulfill ministry, that is to use our spiritual gifts to help other believers to learn the Truth of God and also become able to do their bit in the Body of Christ, then we win the crown of glory. These three crowns together represent the very highest level of reward available to believers. As you must be able to see, they represent incredible wealth that would make Jeff Bezos look like a pitiful pauper even if, in addition to being the wealthiest man on earth, he were also the king of this whole world. And this is wealth that one will have forever. Very few Christians indeed will win all three crowns. Some will win two, some will win just one, and the vast majority will win none at all. This is not because God does not want to give these incredible blessings to everyone. Rather it is because most people, including Christians tragically, couldn't care less what God has to give to those who love Him. So they don't bother to work for these riches. You could be different. Regardless what you are facing, you have everything that you need to begin to grow spiritually and begin to count for the Lord in the Body of Christ. I urge you to take advantage of this opportunity. Pastor-teachers are hard to find and there are very many false ones out there. These latter are the majority by far and they are the most visible too. This is not an oversight on the Lord's part. He permits people to sin if they want to. If people want to lie in His Name, He lets them. If people want to listen to lies told in His Name, He lets them. In the end, He will give everyone their due reward. On the other hand, if people really want to obey His Truth, they often show their love for that Truth by what they are willing to endure to get to it. As a result many of us who love the Truth actually have to fight very hard to find trustworthy pastor-teachers to listen to. I did. I started seeking clear reliable teaching in the Truth when I was a child. I only found it after I turned 31. Those were incredibly difficult years of confusion, fear, despair, and all kinds of pain. But the Lord kept me until He brought me to the one whom He had prepared to care for me spiritually. The ministry under which I grew spiritually and under which I have continued to grow is called Ichthys. You will find it at https://ichthys.com. It is incredibly well provisioned, so you will not lack for any teaching of the Truth there. I highly recommend it to you. It is highly textual, so you might have to be a bit patient going through the material on it. Another one that I always recommend as an alternative is www.bibleacademyonline.com. They are both run by excellent pastor-teachers whose life mission is to teach everything that the Bible says to any believer who is willing to learn. The latter is more video-based. If you can afford the data expense and that suits you better, then you should absolutely go for it. It is important that you stick to only one teacher after you have tested his teaching against the Scriptures and found it faithful to the Bible. Don't mix teachers or hop from teacher to teacher. There is no possibility of spiritual growth that way. One only gets confusion and a swelled head from that approach. That is the gist of 1 Corinthians 4:14-16. You don't have to choose Ichthys or Bible Academy. If you find any other pastor-teacher that suits you but who teaches the whole Truth of the Bible comprehensively and courageously, you should submit to that one. As you grow spiritually, these troubles you face will become easier to bear, and if it is the Lord's will to deliver you out of them, you will become better able to sense His leading of you to the deliverance that He has prepared for you. I will say a word of prayer for you here. The Grace of Jesus Christ be with you. |
| Religion / Re: God The Father Is Impossible! The Bible Is A Scam by Ihedinobi3: 3:48pm On Dec 18, 2020 |
HellVictorinho: I "went against" your "statements" concerning life? What were these statements of yours responding to? I must have missed this request you made. Could you link it in your next response? |
| Religion / Re: God The Father Is Impossible! The Bible Is A Scam by Ihedinobi3: 11:30am On Dec 18, 2020 |
LordReed: You almost surprised me, but you didn't. Obviously, I don't believe it was any kind of simple request. Your "simple request" was like asking for proof that Roman Catholics have a pope. I told you that this is a very common tack that atheists take. You didn't need proof from me. You yourself have debated atheists as a Christian in the past too. As for providing only 1, as I said, you're notoriously dishonest. But I'm done with this foolishness. I had two options right from the beginning: to ignore you or to persuade you to not pursue a meaningless path. Perhaps because I retain hope for you, I decided to engage you. I did say that you would not care for the so-called evidence you were asking for. You can't prove that the sky is blue to a man who can see it. If he rejects the evidence of his own eyes, why would he listen to yours? Right now, I'm not going to respond anymore to anything you have to say about this matter, not to your new false accusation about a bait and switch or your reiteration of your false accusation. It is obvious that this is a common argument that atheists make. It is obvious that the samples I provided are demonstrative of this argument. I never had any responsibility to provide any proof and I still have none to persuade you to accept them. Wallow in your lies for all they are worth. Yours is the reward for your choices. |
| Religion / Re: God The Father Is Impossible! The Bible Is A Scam by Ihedinobi3: 9:22am On Dec 18, 2020 |
LordReed: Previous encounters with you have shown that you don't mind being dishonest. So, there is no reason to take your accusations seriously. This is an example from Facebook. No identifying features (including links) included. Christian: "okay great. At least we both know that we are trading in absurdities. Your atheism threatens the lives of believers. Just look at how atheistic governments slaughtered religious peoples in various countries in the world in the 20th century. I cost you money. You cost me my life. Is that a fair trade to you?" Atheist: "To think I actually thought you were being serious... How many people actually lost their lives during the Christian inquisition...or due to religious leaders promptings or prosecution...even as recent as this year...compared to your so called "atheistic" governments (which weren't actually atheistic since the state was the religion)?? I believe even you can find a better argument…" Other examples: "Stalin was not an atheist. He believed in spirits." https://www.nairaland.com/876060/evangelical-christians-want-start-world#28990940 "Atheism has nothing to do with the repression of others, it is simply a lack of belief in gods. Somebody repressing religion? Then likely that person is pushing another religion on you, like a state or personality cult. Mao, stalin, Kim, Hitler (a catholic though) and Nazism, Fascists (though most were religious as well). Note, all these are RELIGIONS. They espouse their dogma and demand you don't ask questions, that pretty much is textbook religion." https://www.nairaland.com/1082872/youd-been-born-china-wouldnt#12676006 "I'll have you know they promoted their own ideologies. Hitler promoted Nascism, Mao promoted Maoism, Even Musolini promoted Fascism. They never promoted atheism, never for once. As a political scientist, not once was it mentioned that these men promoted atheism. All what they promoted were what I mentioned. And they saw religion and an enemy so they chose to wipe out its adherents. The same thing done by the early church." https://www.nairaland.com/2988881/atheism-terrorism-annihilation-quest-atheistic/2#43944201 "1 Atheism Is Responsible For The Worst Genocides In History This misconception attempts to place the blame of inhuman acts like the Holocaust on atheism because many dictators of the age were atheists. This is known as the Atheist Atrocities Fallacy and is most often used by theists to prove the evil of atheism with statements like, “Well, what about stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler? They were atheists, and they killed millions !” Those dictators were responsible for the deaths of millions of people, but that’s not because they were atheists. In fact, Hitler wasn’t an atheist; he was a devout Christian by his own testament. stalin was an atheist, but he never killed anyone “in the name of atheism” but rather solely to achieve political or nationalistic goals." https://www.nairaland.com/3379782/10-common-misconceptions-atheism#49795105 https://michaelsherlockauthor./2014/10/21/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot-in-memory-of-christopher-hitchens/ (content also quoted at https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/10/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot/) Since this argument was popularized by Richard Dawkins (you tend to see his name associated with it quite often), you can see why it is disingenuous of you to pretend that you've never seen it before. It's common enough in debates between Christians and atheists. I'm guessing you will be tripping all over your ballooned ego now, but I have offered this just in case someone else out there with less experience than you needs to know the true state of things. I didn't owe you this answer. You were being horribly dishonest asking the question in the first place. And now, your dishonesty is proven. 1 Like |
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