Donspicey:
Revelation 12:1-17 [b]And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ[/b].



Who is the Woman??


Who is the Child?



And what later happened to the Child?

Hi there.

As verses 1 and 3 both say, the woman and the dragon are metaphors for something else. It is important to note that unless Revelation (and indeed any other part of the Bible) says that something is a sign, we would be most unwise to assume that it is not being literal. Your questions show that you recognize that these are signs that need interpretation, good for you.

1. The woman is Israel, just as the 12 stars show. Compare Genesis 37:9-10. The 12 stars stand for the 12 tribes of Israel.

2. The child is the Lord Jesus Christ. Many Bible passages here in Revelation and all over the Bible including Psalm 2, Isaiah 7, and Isaiah 9 attest to this.

3. As verse 5 says and as the rest of the Bible bears witness, the Lord Jesus will return to destroy Satan's kingdom ruling over the earth currently and take rulership over the whole world.

cheango:
As a Christian, living in Nigeria. Have found it so difficult to practice what the Bible wants. We are born to an inherited corruption.
From school to our working place and businesses, I have seen its difficult not to cut corners.
Our culture is just corruption, and its hard not to conform.

Now, I understand that all of us going to church are not going to church to worship God, but for what we want Him to do for us, we don't love God

So am asking, will it be difficult to enter heaven as a Nigerian

Hi there.

The Lord Jesus Himself said that it is difficult for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God. If we work with that (and a great deal of similar statements throughout the Bible), it would seem that it should be wealthy countries that should be worried. Nigeria certainly isn't rich, so maybe no?

Seriously though, one problem that this kind of reasoning has is a failure to believe that salvation is purely by grace through faith. That is, works or behavior has nothing to do with becoming a citizen of Heaven.

Of course, this does not mean that it doesn't matter how we behave. The Bible is clear that if we are children of God, we should act like it. If then we recast your question to be how easy it is to live like a child of God in a corrupt country like Nigeria, the answer would be "not easy at all." But then, this is true everywhere else in the world.

We live in a fallen world. It is full of hatred for God and His truth. We who have chosen to believe will always have to deal with the world's opposition to God's Ways. Sometimes, that will mean acting in unpopular ways. Sometimes, that will mean enduring unpleasant choices.

How do we manage? How do we live for God in the midst of growing wickedness? Romans 12:2 tells us that it is by having our minds renewed so that we are transformed into the kind of people who know and live according to God's Will. That is, we can live the way that God wants us to live, no matter where we are, by growing spiritually (see the link).

When we come to learn, believe, and understand God's way of thinking and doing things, which is what spiritual growth is really about, we can make difficult choices more easily and shine like stars in a dark world.

On the other hand, when we set up our own standards of righteousness, then we must beware the Bible's own warning:

16 Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise— why destroy yourself? 17 Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool— why die before your time? 18 It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.
Ecclesiastes 7:16-18 (NIV)

chatinent:
Opposite to the post on frontpage: https://www.nairaland.com/6379865/why-shouldnt-wait-see-hell

• if hell fire is real as the OP opined, why did Adam and Eve the first sinners not go to hell?

• does not the doctrine of hell fire promote afterlife, and the immortality of the soul, thereby calling God a liar when he stated that sinners will die, as he told Adam and Eve?

• does it not also contradict the bible where it said the wages of sin is death? Is the wages now hell fire?

• some believe the devil will torment people in hell fire eternally, does it mean God is now working with the devil to torment people the same devil made to sin?


• if people are tormented forever, which part of the body is tormented? The body or spirit?

Cos we know fire cannot harm a spirit, and the bible teaches that when one dies the spirit returns to God (Ps 146: 4). So which part is tormented?

The bible tells us the devil will be destroyed, so who will continue tormenting them?

• does it not also contradict the bible in Eccl 9: 5, 10 that the dead are conscious of nothing?

• in the case of Lazarus, Jesus friend who died. When he died where was he? He was a good man remember. When Jesus resurrected him, was he in heaven or hell fire? Of course, none. Because it didn't make sense that Jesus pulled him from heaven to live again on earth, or from hell fire which translates judgement to people. Where was he!


• in the Revelation account, the second death was also hurled into the lake of fire. So does it mean hell fire can now burn death?


I need answers.

Seun, lalasticlala

Hi there.

I thought of just linking other conversations I've had on this matter for your perusal, but I think that your approach does offer some uniqueness, so I'll attend to it separately and then offer you other links that you can read for a broader discussion on this.

As I always try to remind people I respond to, please keep in mind that the best that I or anyone else really can do is to represent the Bible's position accurately. No one can make you believe anything that you don't want to believe. My commitment to the Lord is to help every believer who will accept my help with my pastor-teaching gift to understand biblical truth. It is not to make anyone accept the truth if they don't want to accept it. So, there is a real limit to my ability to satisfy you here.

To your questions then...

1. If you mean that Adam and Eve never went to Torments, that is true, although the Bible does not speak explicitly of what happened to them after they died. They did accept the Gospel of Salvation in the Garden of Eden after all. When the Lord killed an animal and gave the skin to them to wear (Genesis 3:21), that was His offering of the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus much later in history to die for all human sin against God. Their acceptance of the skin was therefore their acceptance of that later Sacrifice in their behalf. At death then, they were taken to wherever believers were supposed to be, not to where unbelievers were to be deposited.

2/3. I'm not sure what the lie is. The Bible speaks of death in different ways. In fact, we know that there are three types of death. There is the physical death which is a separation of our spirits from our physical bodies and the removal of our spirits from the earth to a place defined by our choices in this world regarding the Lord (Ecclesiastes 12:7). There is spiritual death which is the estrangement of the sinner from the Lord (Romans 5:12,19). There is the second death or the lake of fire which is the banishment of all rebels from the Presence of God and all His good gifts to a place of eternal suffering (Revelation 20:15). None of these has anything to do with the cessation of existence which is the atheistic and unbiblical definition of death for some.

4. This is a Hollywood depiction that has nothing to do with the Scriptures. Satan and his fellow rebels have no authority even in Hades as it is right now. Hades contains a compartment called the Abyss or the Prison where any rebel angel that violates the ground rules of the warfare between God and Satan is held until their appointed time of release (Luke 8:31; 1 Peter 3:19-20). It is crazy to imagine that Satan would have any authority over a place that is also a prison for him if he does anything unsanctioned by the Lord. In fact, he does his best to avoid having to even visit Hades.

The Lake of Fire, on the other hand, is an even worse experience for Satan. At the end of history, Satan and his fellow rebel angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer eternally for their wicked rebellions against the Lord (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10). It's hard to torture others when you yourself are suffering so much that all you can do is regret the folly of your choices.

5. The Lord Jesus warned us to fear God who is able to destroy both body and soul (that is, the whole person) in Hell (Matthew 10:28). So, you can take for granted that it is the whole person that will suffer, not just the body. In this world, although our spirits can suffer a certain degree of pain (our emotions are primarily a spiritual faculty), human beings really cannot damage our spirits in any way, nor can Satan and his angels. But God is able to seriously hurt our spirits. That is what He designed the Lake of Fire for. Anyone who continues to rebel against God will spend eternity in all kinds of torment that not only destroy (in the biblical sense, not in the secular sense) the body but also destroy the spirit (the real us). This is why the Lord Jesus talked about weeping and gnashing of teeth. Both things speak to the eternal regret and frustration (the fundamental emotional pains of all those in the Lake of Fire) that will be the lot of all those who persist in rebellion against God (Matthew 13:50).

The "return" of the spirit to God is just that we will answer to Him for our choices in this life (Ecclesiastes 12:7). That was the Bible's way of saying that no one can escape divine judgment. You don't either go out of existence when your body expires nor do you somehow escape God by avoiding appearing before Him after you die. Once our time in this world is done, not a single human being will escape answering to God for all the choices that they made in this world. It does not mean that we will somehow be reabsorbed into God, as some have foolishly said. Our spirits are the real us. So, death only takes us back to our Maker to answer for our choices for and against Him.

As I answered in #4 above, obviously Satan does no tormenting or torturing in Hades or in the Lake of Fire. The place itself (Torments in Hades for all human unbelievers and the Lake of Fire for both rebel angels and human unbelievers) is designed to torment all rebels against God for all eternity. It does not need any human or angel to administer its punishment. Itself is the punishment.

6. No it doesn't. First of all, all those who have died in this world -- both believers and unbelievers -- are no longer experiencing life in this world. So they are conscious of nothing going on in this world. Their fight is done, just like fallen soldiers on the battlefield can no longer rampage or revel (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Second of all, those regarded as the dead by God are the spiritually dead. These ones particularly are not provided any opportunity at all to see what is going on in the world after they leave. Even rebel angels who are imprisoned in the Abyss also have no access to what is happening in the world after they are incarcerated there. This was why the Lord Jesus went to them to proclaim His Victory on the Cross (1 Peter 3:19). They didn't know that He had come and died for all human sin, just as God had promised Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15. Their effort to prevent that from happening by creating Nephilim with human women did not work after all (these were the angels who did that business in Genesis 6:2,4).

Those who are not spiritually dead, that is, those who are regarded by God as His Own have a different experience after death. As you will see in Revelation 4:6 and in a number of other places in the same book (15:2, for example), there is a sea of glassy ice in Heaven that serves as a viewing portal into events on earth. The faithful dead, along with the angels, can view the unfolding war on earth through it (cf. Hebrews 12:1; Isaiah 66:24). So they are aware of what is happening here. But this does not mean that they are "conscious" of it in the sense that the Scriptures have it in Ecclesiastes or that they "know" it or that they "praise" the Lord in the sense that David talked about it (Psalm 6:5; cf. 88:10-12; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18).

As we already know, even the angels sing praise to God in Heaven (Revelation 4:8-11; 5:9-12). We know from Revelation 6:9-10 that the faithful dead can communicate with the Lord, so we can assume that they do praise Him with the angels. But the dead do not praise the Lord as the living do. Here on earth, we face a great deal of challenges from our enemy the devil. We suffer, we cry, we hope, and we pray for deliverance. These experiences are no longer available to those who have left the earth to be with the Lord. When we who are still alive are delivered, our praise is in the midst of an ongoing battle and for sustenance in this life, both of which are not at all like the praise of those who are at rest and safe from the shot and shell of the wars of this life. This is the sense in which the faithful dead are not conscious of what goes on in this world, the sense in which they don't know anything anymore about life in this world, and the sense in which they do not praise the Lord.

7. This is clearly not a question. Obviously, this is something that you are convinced is true. I will not dictate to you what you must believe, but I can certainly disagree with you. I don't believe that there is any reason to believe that those whom the Lord raised from the dead were not somewhere else while they were dead. Everyone who dies is taken by the angels either to Torments or to the Third Heaven (before the Cross, believers who died were taken to Paradise or Abraham's Bosom). So whenever the Lord Jesus raised a believer from the dead, they were brought back from Paradise at that time.

Still, there is good reason to be incredulous about that. Who would want to come back to the earth after having been in Paradise or in the Third Heaven? When Samuel answered Saul's summons from the Grave, he certainly didn't sound too pleased to be back on earth, but then he really wasn't "raised" from the dead. His rest was only temporarily interrupted. For those who are raised from the dead, they come back into a physical body. This is important. Our physical bodies were designed by the Lord to limit our experience of spiritual reality (1 Corinthians 13:12; 15:42-49; Psalm 8:4-5). So it is to be expected that those who are brought back might not remember the immense pleasure of being in Paradise or the Third Heaven. If they did, life on earth might be intolerable for them. This does not mean that the prophets and apostles who received visions of the Third Heaven were lying. It only means that they were very mature believers who could still endure life on earth without being frustrated by their desire to go to Heaven already.

8. I don't believe that that is what Revelation says. I will quote the passage below. What it says is that death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and that this Lake of Fire is what the Bible called the Second Death. What this means is that the Lake of Fire is going to fill the place that the Bible calls Hades. That place has three compartments: Paradise, a place of great pleasure and delight for believers who died before the Cross; Torments, a place of torment for all unbelievers who die from Cain until the end of human history; and the Abyss, a prison for all rebel angels who violate the ground rules of warfare until the Final Judgment when they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. These compartments will be filled with the Lake of Fire.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:14 (NKJV)

What is Death though that gets thrown into the Lake of Fire? Death, Hades, the Grave, Sheol, Hell are all words often used by the Bible to describe the same concept: the impermanence of earthly life. The personalization of Death in Revelation 6:8 does not mean that it is either a sentient being or even a perfectly distinct thing from Hades. Death and Hades go hand in hand because until the Cross, when we die we go to Hades. Since the Cross, that only applies to unbelievers now. The Lake of Fire will end that permanently. Nobody will die again in the new Heaven and Earth that God will create after the Judgment of the Great White Throne. All those who live with God in that new universe will never again be removed from the Earth or separated from God's Presence again. In the Lake of Fire, well, there is no more possibility of transition, so death abides with those who are there forever.

Here are some links where you can find other answers I have offered to questions about Hell:

On the Purpose of Hell Fire

On where people go when they die

On the summoning of Samuel's spirit from the Grave

On the Question of God's Love and the Existence of Hell Fire

Cheers.

TheNaijaGist:
Damn!!!!
Am just totally confused, I was born in a Christian home and grew there but I have little knowledge on Christianity.
Although I know Bible alot!! But I need clear explanation on all those verses
Do Jesus exist?
If yes what's the prove? How do I know and totally believe in him.
Sometimes I Repent and after going through some Facebook post from some atheisit am following. I just totally Turn bad sharing some of their post that God does not exist. They gave very reasonable prove that God did not exist
Please if God do exist tell me how to become a strong believer.
If others ask me for prove what will I say,?
This are some of the posts I found below!

Hi there.

When we believe in Jesus Christ, that He is God Who became Man and died for our sins so that we can be reconciled to God, we are saved, and we become children of God. But that is not the end of the matter.

The Bible tells us that if we have tasted of the grace of God and become believers, we should also grow spiritually (see the link) (1 Peter 2:2-3). It is only by growing spiritually that we secure our Salvation. When we fail to grow spiritually, we remain vulnerable to the lies that can cause us to fall away from faith in the Lord.

That is to say that the only way that any of us can find peace and stability in our faith in God is by diligently learning everything that the Bible has to teach. If we don't, well, we will always be vulnerable to doubts.

So I encourage you to pursue that path.

However, it is important to keep in mind that life here on earth is all about what we choose to believe. The fact that something is true is not going to force us to believe it. We can see the truth and still refuse to accept it as true. That is because we all have free will. Of course, the atheists that you spoke of do argue that we don't, but there is no human being who has never changed their mind. That is more than conclusive proof that we have an inmate ability to choose things or to change our choice.

If this is true -- and I assure you that it is -- it is obvious why atheists can claim that there is no God. The evidence of God's existence is glaring. It is the very world around you and your own self. How does everything exist if God doesn't exist? Believe me, I have debated this question very many times in my life. There are all sorts of insane answers to it from atheists.

Some atheists pretend that nothing magically became something after a very long time. Others insist that this universe was created by an infinite line of universes. Yet others pretend that this universe has always existed. All of these things are easily false. If the universe has always existed, why does it experience change? If there is an infinite line of universes that gave rise to this one in the continuum, then what created the very first universe in that chain? Oh, it's infinite? If anyone can believe that magical concept, why is it hard to believe in an infinite God who has always existed? If nothing became something, then insanity is normal, and the atheist who believes it is no better than the Christian who believes in a God that has always existed.

It is obvious that God exists. Even atheists know this. Their problem is not whether God exists or not. As your memes prove, the problem is that they disapprove of His ways. For example, why wipe out humanity with a global flood when he could reveal Himself or magically make humanity good? That is what they would do. But God is not like them, and they can't stand that.

How can we solve the problem of atheism? As long as free will is functional, we can't. God has given every human being a right to choose whether to accept His testimony about Himself (that is, the Gospel) or to reject it. The atheist is only exercising his free will by rejecting it. That is alright. When God judges the world, the atheist will see the proofs that he is demanding for then. Of course, they won't do him any good at that time, but then he could have accepted the evidence offered prior.

In short, it is up to you to make a choice, sir. You have to decide whether you want to give God a fair hearing and whether you will accept His testimony or not. He won't force you. But if you choose not to either seek His testimony or listen to it or believe it, then you have to consider that you may have to eventually face the consequences of rejecting Him. He, not you, is the God, after all.

MrBati:
Good morning!

At this stage of my life I am beginning to see going to church as a waste of productive time and my parents refuse to see why. I strongly believe in God as the author and finisher of my faith but I don't think it is necessary to always go to church...

I have been going to church for over 20 years of my life and I am tired.

My parents are ready to disown me because of not going to church.

Can't i serve God without going to Church?

Hi there.

For some background, I've been a believer for almost all my life. I don't remember when I first believed in Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus has always been part of my life for as long as I can remember. I also went to church for very much of my life, and not just because my parents made me go. I went even more than they did. I grew increasingly disillusioned as I grew older. I finally stopped going to church in September 2015, if memory serves me right. Even though I tried one church when I moved to a different city, I didn't last half an hour in that first service that I attended. I was sick of it before I even got into the church. So I left and never went back.

That is all to say that I understand what you feel and may be going through. But let's talk about what the Bible actually says.

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 10:24-25 (NKJV)

15 . . . how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15 (NKJV)

These are two of very many Scriptures that point to the need for believers to walk together. It is critical to our spiritual health to have comrades in the Truth. In our fight against Satan and his lies, no lone ranger does well. Lone rangers are apt to be captured and be destroyed by Satan. This is why the Bible also says,

6 God sets the solitary in families;
He brings out those who are bound into prosperity;
But the rebellious dwell in a dry land.
Psalms 68:6 (NKJV)

God has always demonstrated that what He wants is a family of believers who walk together in love in their pursuit of His Truth. He showed this especially in the creation of the nation of Israel. That nation is actually the true spiritual family of all those who believe. The Law of Moses (and the promises of the Millennium too) made provision for all believers who needed a home. Foreigners who decided that they wanted to serve the God of Israel were to be absorbed into the Jewish population and treated exactly like Jews too. This has been fully fulfilled in the proclamation of the Gospel to Gentiles through the Apostles. We who were once far from God are now part of His Unique Blessed Family by Faith in Jesus Christ.

The problem though is that as long as we are in this world, we have to keep in mind that we are fighting a war against Satan. Sometimes, Satan does infiltrate groups of believers (cf. Galatians 2:4; Ezra 4:1-5). When he does that, we might have to leave the groups where we are.

17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse.
1 Corinthians 11:17 (NKJV)

17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”
2 Corinthians 6:17-18 (NKJV)

The Scriptures are clear that when believers gather, the reason that they do is to encourage each other in spiritual growth (see the link). We are supposed to be helping each other in our efforts to learn biblical truth, believe it, and apply it in our lives. If the group to which we belong is increasingly unconcerned with the truth, then we will find our being among them increasingly burdensome to ourselves. It is no good then to remain there. It is best at that point to leave and find other believers (and really all you need for a start is one other believer, a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher) who will be an encouragement to your spiritual growth.

Some people do leave, but then they never seek out anything better. They become laws unto themselves and fall into error as a result. Nairaland is ripe with such people. They start to fancy themselves experts on biblical truth and then end up deceived and deceiving others. I was one such person years ago, but the Lord took pity on me and brought me to a pastor-teacher who helped me learn the whole realm of biblical truth and begin to train for my ministry as a pastor-teacher (I have a pastor-teaching gift). Feel free to look at my old Nairaland account at nairaland.com/ihedinobi2 to see some of that. Everything from 2015 and back on that account is a testimony to a prior career of foolishness.

The solution is not to only leave. It is also to find a pastor-teacher who is gifted and prepared to teach you the whole truth of the Bible. When you do, you will find other believers clustered around that teacher who will be an encouragement to your good desire to grow spiritually (see the link). Regular or traditional denominational/non-denominational/interdenominational churches are not some Scripturally sanctioned way to worship God. This is what the Bible actually says:

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:21-24 (NKJV)

That is, the worship of God is not defined by any geographical limitations. Rather, the Lord says that only true spiritual worship that is centered on the truth of the Bible is recognized by or desirable and acceptable to God.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Matthew 18:20 (NKJV)

To gather in the Lord's Name is to gather with His Approval. What kind of gathering has His approval? Any gathering that provides believers with a real opportunity to encourage each other in the truth, that is, any gathering where they are learning the truth and helping each other in any way that they can to use that truth in their lives no matter where this gathering occurs or what the particulars of it are. That is why the Bible says that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth. If a given group of people calls itself a church and makes certain token gestures to that effect but does not make a priority of teaching the truth and encouraging believers to get better at living according to it, it is not a church by biblical definition. According to Paul who was writing under inspiration from God, such a group is bad for you spiritually.

In short, then, my answer is that while you do not need the thing commonly called church today to serve God in so far as it does not actually help you grow spiritually, you do need fellow believers to walk with God as you should. When you find true church, it may not be what you expected, but it will be everything that you need.

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:1-16 (NKJV)

Versionite4life:
No insults please. What's the purpose of hell fire? I need a proper explanation, using perfect logic, morals and biblical backups.

Hi there.

I do have a policy to only engage in respectful discourse, so I have no intention of insulting you. I am offering what I hope is a proper, reasonable, and biblical explanation of the subject. Please feel free to ask any clarifying questions. But I should point out that I don't guarantee that my answer will be acceptable to you. I only intend to give you what I believe to be the true answer. You are free to challenge it as rigorously as you please, but in the end, you will have to choose what you will believe.

By hellfire, I imagine that you mean the lake of fire. If you do, then the simple answer is free will.

I'm going to try to explain that as simply and concisely as I can. I will be leaving out quite a few details and almost certainly some biblical evidence, so you may have questions after I'm done. I'll be happy to answer them, so feel free to ask them.

God built the universe and all the creatures that He made with "immortality" in them (Ecclesiastes 3:14). (The word is in quotes because it has more than one meaning. The biblical meaning is different from the more popular secular meaning. I'm using the secular meaning here: that something never goes out of existence.) So, nothing will ever just cease to exist. Everything God made will last forever.

God did this because He built the Universe to share it with intelligent and emotional creatures who could freely choose to share it with Him too. Of course, He had absolutely no intentions otherwise. It was neither His intent nor His desire that they would make a different choice although He did provide them with the ability to make a different choice if they so preferred. Because He built them in a native state of righteousness (for example, Ecclesiastes 7:29), things were just supposed to remain that way forever. But we know that they didn't. First, the angels sinned, then man did too in his own turn.

Because God knew that His creatures would rebel, He prepared for it. Eternal punishment was prepared for these "immortal" creatures who would reject God's Love. They were immortal, as already said above, because the idea was that God would share a wonderful immortal universe with them forever. Since they were not locked into that by the Lord -- that is, they had/have free will -- they could choose to rebel against His Will. What would the Lord do with them then? Since it wasn't all of them who would rebel, there had to be a separation. If they didn't want God, then they had to be removed from God's good creation. The Lake of Fire is the alternative to that good creation. It provides a sort of collection point for these rebels (Matthew 25:41).

That is one reason for the existence of the Lake of Fire. The other reason is related. God is just, perfectly just. It is necessary then that He punishes sin. This is, in fact, the reason that the Lord Jesus had to die for our sins. If someone sins, there has to be a punishment for that sin. Since sin is rebellion against God, the right punishment for it is to remove the sinner from God's Presence and cut him off from all of God's good gifts. It obviously makes no moral sense to continue to provide benefits to someone who hates you and does not want to share his existence with you. So God rejects all those who reject Him as well. But if God lives in His good universe with those who love Him, then what should happen to those who don't love Him? It makes sense that they should stick around someplace where they can rue their poor choice for all eternity. Why for all eternity? Because what they rejected was God's offer for them to spend their immortality in pleasure and perfect joy with Him. It is only just then that they should suffer the consequences due.

There is a bit more to this justice business. If the Lord Jesus paid such a hefty price for our sins against God, how is it fair to Him that those who reject such a great gift should just get away with it? If people died and that was that, then exactly what was the point of Jesus dying on the Cross? If there is no eternal consequence for rejecting God, then we might all as well live as we please and then die and be done with it (1 Corinthians 15:32). But Jesus paid an eternal price on the Cross so that we can spend eternity with God even though we are sinners. It would be terribly unfair if people just either ended up with the Lord in eternity without believing the Gospel or just ceased to exist after living such sinful lives.

There is even more. Although unbelievers will disagree, those who reject God in this life tend to hate those who embrace Him. It is always the case. Just as Cain killed Abel, unbelievers persecute and even kill believers in this life. If after all that, unbelievers either just ceased to exist when they die or they are admitted into an eternity with God, how would that be fair to the believers who endured all their wickedness in this life?

These things are what the Lake of Fire answers with its existence.

shadeyinka:

I agree with you: but the flesh isn't the root cause of ALL sin even though, no sin/addiction can be committed without the input of the flesh.

We obviously have three major enemies as Christians.
1. The Flesh:
This is our natural inclination towards pleasure and freedom from discomfort. The flesh doesn't care one bit about God's will and so we have a duty to subdue it by the entrance of the word of Faith!
2. The World:
This is the system created by the citizens of this world following their master satan. We are drawn to the world because we live in the world (but we are not of the world)
3. The devil:
This is the combination of satan, spiritual forces of darkness, principalities, demons, etc
They tempt Christians using both their flesh and the world as a bait.

With the Word of God, we subdue our flesh. When the flesh is subdued, the other two enemies (the world and satan) are become powerless over us.

The other thing the devil can do is to create negative opportunities that will cause a Christian to make hard decisions.

The second other thing is when a Christian is demonized. Hebmayneed to go for his deliverance to be free.

Shalom.

I think that we are saying the same thing. The fact that Satan tempts us to sin or that the world around us provides pressure for us to sin does not change the fact that the root of sin is our flesh. As you said, if the flesh is taken out of the picture, then the world and Satan himself are significantly reduced in their ability to cause us to sin. The main problem is our flesh. During the Millennium, for example, the world will be perfect and under the rule of Jesus Christ and Satan will be imprisoned with the rest of the rebel angels in the Abyss, yet people will be sinning and the vast majority of people will be unbelievers.

Anyway, I was just surprised that you said what you said.

Cheers.

Nazgul:

Thanks for this. But the story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable Jesus told. It didn't actually happen, just like the story of the prodigal son and the story of the good Samaritan.

I'm not trying to argue with your submission cos it really enlightened me, all I'm saying is who were the dead the Bible was saying will rise up?

And why will they be another judgement if the dead are already in Hades and the good in the third heavens like you pointed out.

Thanks for your contribution once again.

Although I have heard that claim that the parables of Jesus never happened and although I once thought that that was the case, I really have never heard any good reason why anyone believes it. "Parable" is just a means of comparing things to demonstrate something about them. So, for example, the Lord was using things that people of His day knew well to show them what something that they didn't know very well -- the Kingdom of God/Heaven -- was really like. Nothing about that even remotely suggests that the stories were not true. "Parable" does not mean "fictitious."

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus is Truth itself, so He never makes anything up. Everything He spoke and speaks is exactly true. I found that accepting this opens vistas of truth to us. It was only when I understood this that things like this parable in Luke 16 opened up to me. Not only did the Jews understand what He was talking about because it was part of their understanding of God that there should be multiple compartments of Hell, but the Lord Jesus Himself was providing graphic teaching of something the Jews took for granted so that it would be documented for the Gentiles who did not have Jewish traditions. This is the only place in the Bible that tells us Gentiles in such graphic detail just how Hades works.

About your first question, I did my best to answer it quite comprehensively. Perhaps I didn't explain something well enough, but unless you can show me what I need to explain better, I would be needing to just rewrite my answer, and I really cannot afford to do that. I understand if you don't believe my answer. Not many people believe that the Bible means what it says. Each person must make their own choice. What I can say is just that those who will be resurrected is everyone who dies today (and those believers who will be alive when the Lord Jesus returns). That is what I believe to be the truth that the Bible teaches.

As to your second question, as I said, everyone who dies now is put in a holding cell or in a place of rest where they await their judgment. It's exactly the same thing that human beings do with suspected criminals. When the police arrest someone that they really think is a threat to society in some way, they hold them in jail as they build a case against them. The difference is that God already knows what everyone has chosen. Those who are held in Torments are held there in order to wait for all of the human race to be tested here on earth. Those who are in the Third Heaven are waiting for the rest of God's children to be saved and tested before everyone is evaluated and rewarded.

Perhaps if you could ask a more specific question, I could provide a better answer. This is what I have for now.

LordReed:


Exactly. The is the point I guess is Christians generally give the impression the Bible is easy to figure out and if its not making sense to you then something is wrong you and not with the text.

Well, I have certainly never communicated here since 2018 that the Bible is easy to figure out. I have been advocating spiritual growth (see the link) since I got back on this platform back then. The reason for that is that it is only through spiritual growth that we come to understand the Bible.

On the other hand, I don't believe at all that there is anything wrong with the original text of the Bible (and all the translations and surviving manuscripts have such a high degree of accuracy that one can say for all practical purposes that there is no great problem with them). If one does not understand the Bible, something is indeed wrong with them. It may be because they don't have the Holy Spirit in them to provide them with the faculty to even understand Bible teaching in the first place (which is the situation of all unbelievers), or it may be that they have not yet submitted to a pastor-teacher to be taught what the Bible teaches as a whole (the position of the vast majority of believers today). Both things are certainly not the right positions for anyone to be in.

shadeyinka:

You are correct: Of course not!

He should deal with the root cause and source of his infection and not the efficacy of the administered drugs.

The root of addictions could be:
1. Indulgence in predisposing influences eg. Books, Movies, Music
2. Friendship with negative characters
3. Demons

These need to be dealt with as we humbly seek healing from Christ Jesus!

Hello sir.

I thought that you would hold a different opinion than the above. Does the Bible not teach that the root cause of all bad behavior is the flesh in which sin lives (Romans 7:18)?

Of course, anything that encourages or provides an opportunity for our flesh to act in keeping with its nature is not good to tolerate, but such things are hardly the root cause of sin, whether of the occasional sort or of the addictive sort.

Auduambless:
I have been battling with some habits for quite some years now.

If it's by decision, I have made a lot of decision but end up going back again and again.

If it's by anything, I have done my best... Please nairalanders, if you have ever overcame any habit, can you help a seeking brother find a way outta a bad habits...

Thank you... Please positive replies

Hi there.

As a Christian, I have learned that it is spiritual growth (see the link) that changes us morally.

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord (that is, learning the truth of the Bible; note the context), are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (NKJV)

It is very hard to make and sustain a true moral change without a spiritual change. It is certainly possible to appear more righteous, to appear to be better at doing good things and avoiding bad things, while still being wicked people in our hearts.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matthew 23:27-28 (NKJV)

If we truly want to change in a way that pleases God, then spiritual growth (see the link) is the answer that we have been given by the Lord.

LordReed:


Sure but it's different when you as a Christian use the word weird. Also it piques my curiosity, what verses would you consider weird?

I think you didn't read what I wrote. Peter himself writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "things that are hard to understand." I said, "weird or difficult." I'm not sure then how it is different when a Christian, especially myself given all I have been doing on this platform since 2018, uses the word. It only means "strange." I am only acknowledging the difference in paradigm between the Scriptures and what may be called earthly wisdom or philosophy.

I spend a great deal of energy on Nairaland explaining Bible teachings. The whole reason for that is that there are very many weird (read, strange...to natural human thinking) bible passages. In this matter of death and resurrection, I have already mentioned Ecclesiastes 12:7 which appears to some -- even here on this thread -- to mean that when we die, our spirits are sort of reabsorbed into the substance of God, whatever they think that that means. I certainly had my own problems with that passage growing up. But it only means that the real us will answer to God for the choices we made here on earth when we die. That is why unbelievers are in Torments at death, while believers are in the Third Heaven at death too.

Another difficult passage for some is Mark 5:39 along with other passages that talk of death as sleep. They have been used to falsely teach that death puts us in an unconscious state until we are resurrected. Some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, believe that they mean that we cease to exist at death. But if that is true, then many other passages would then be false. What this verse and others like it actually teach is just that death temporarily truncates existence in the earthly realm for those who die. They are removed from the earth until the Resurrection. This is particularly true of believers since they will spend Eternity on the new Earth in a new powerful eternal body.

Difficult passages are hardly ever hard to find, considering that there is only so much that one can understand in the Bible without the help of a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher.

Nicenancy:


You are preaching three separate Gods which is heretic (Deuteronomy 6;4)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't believe that I am. I believe that God is One, as the Scriptures teach. And I also believe that there are Three who the One God in essence, as the Scriptures also teach.

8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: “After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you—for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me.
10 “Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD. 11 “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling. ”
Zechariah 2:8-13 (NIV)

As is clear from the above quote, the LORD Almighty is saying that He will be sent by the Glorious One (KJV, NKJV, and NASB severally render the phrase "after glory he" or "after the glory he," but that does not help in understanding. NIV seems correct to me here, and even if we ignored the NIV, who could be sending the LORD Almighty anywhere or who is he for whom Israel is the apple of his eye?) to save Israel out of the hands of those who plundered them. In verses 9 and 11, this is confirmed when He also says that by the Israelites' plundering of the nations that enslaved them and by His living among them (both of which will happen at the Return of Jesus Christ), they would know that the LORD Almighty had sent Him to them.

I know that those who hate the truth will find a way to reject the obvious truth here, namely that there are two Individuals in this passage who are called "the LORD Almighty": the Speaker and the One of whom He speaks. I'm sure that someone will try to argue that it was Zechariah who was speaking and not the Lord Almighty. I'm sure that someone will argue that the Lord was being schizophrenic and talking about the many sides of His single personality. I'm not interested in debating such insane notions. The truth seems to me to be abundantly clear here. Let those who have ears hear.

Nicenancy:

The Gospel make us understand understand that Jesus Christ is currently seated AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD/POWER/THE MAJESTY

See Proof:



Luke 22:69 ESV / 56 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Colossians 3:1
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The above plus a host of other verses establish this fact.

My Question again: Is there a smaller throne just beside the THRONE of God on Which Jesus sits in Heaven ? If there is no small throne beside the THRONE of God , then it means Jesus Himself sits on the throne of God. If Jesus sits on the THRONE of God, then Jesus is God Himself!

Let's have your say

Hi there.

There are two ways that I can answer this question. One will involve a really long post, and the other will take a short summary. I prefer the long post because it will explain even the implied questions that any person asking this question is really asking. But that approach will cost me time and energy that I cannot spare right now, and it doesn't often work for Nairaland anyway. The short summary will leave a lot of associated questions unanswered, but it should still be sufficient to help anyone who wants an answer to that question to pursue more complete teaching on the matter.

There is only One Throne (see Revelation 22:1 and 3:21). It is the Battle Chariot that the four Cherubim fly whenever God visits the earth. There are several mentions of these visits scattered throughout the Bible including Exodus, Psalms, Isaiah, and Ezekiel. The Throne can also be stationary as we find it to be in Revelation 4.

In Revelation 5, you can see that two people are sitting in the Chariot: the Father and the Lamb. The Chariot could take both of them. There is often enough room in a chariot for more than one rider. That is the case here too.

Sharing God's Throne is also a metaphor for sharing His Authority. We may not all physically sit in the same material Throne with Him, but we will share His Rule over all Creation if we finish our lives here on earth holding on to our faith in Jesus Christ. What that means is just like what a President does after winning an election: He assembles a cabinet ideally composed of people loyal to him.

Because of His obedience to the Father as a human being, the Lord Jesus has been made the Father's regent over all Creation. If we are faithful to the end, we will all share His Authority too to the degree that we did our jobs for Him here on earth. So, each of us will be members of His Government in the Millennium and in Eternity, and we will be members of that Government together with all the angels and all Millennial Believers as well. That is what it means to share God's Throne.

The Lord Jesus may be unique in that He is the Only Human Being Who will actually sit in that same Throne with the Father, just as Revelation 22:1 suggests. That does not mean that He is not God. As God, the Throne belongs to Him too by Nature, just as it belongs to the Holy Spirit too. But the Authority and Kingship of God is the role that the Father plays in the Trinity, so He is the Member of the Trinity who sits in the Throne as God. Jesus sits in it at His Right Hand as the preeminent Human who did His Job for God faithfully and won His Reward as God's appointed Ruler over all Creation.

LordReed:


A Christian admitting there are weird passages in the Bible wow. Care to mention 1 or 2?

Since you and I know each other quite well, there is more specificity to that statement than there would be if you were talking to a strange Christian. Where then have I suggested that the Bible is that easy to understand or that there is no strangeness in it? I often post the following passage --

15 ...our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:15-16 (NKJV) --

to show that the Bible does not lend itself so easily to interpretation. It requires humility, a willingness to submit to tutelage, and a commitment to seek out a qualified pastor-teacher to learn what it means. Otherwise, much of what it says sounds weird and is certainly very difficult to understand.

Nicenancy:
Luke 23:3,37-38

[3]Then Pilate asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?” He answered him and said, “It is as you say.”

[37]and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”

[38]And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

At this point, the Jews already had a King. Why then did Jesus claim to be the King of the Jews?

Thank you

Hi there.

I'm not sure how this question even arises. All the Gospels are clear that Jesus is the Son of David. Both Matthew and Luke provide evidence of this, with Matthew tracing Jesus's lineage through Joseph, his stepfather, and Luke tracing it through Mary. As the physical descendant of David, Jesus was the rightful heir to David's Throne.

OpenYourEyes1:
Is it possible to be a virgin again after your past life of masturbation, adultery or fornication?

It's only possible through JESUS CHRIST, by being Born-Again(Holy Spirit Baptism) and living in holiness and righteousness continuously.

I believe if you "live long enough" (after Holy Spirit Baptism) without masturbating, without committing adultery or fornication, you can be considered a virgin. We are now New or Born-again. Old things have passed away, Thanks to GOD the FATHER and our LORD JESUS and the Holy Spirit.

OpenYourEyes1:


If you are born-again, you are a New Person. If you don't go about having intentional sex after being a New Person, you are a virgin.

OpenYourEyes1:


You have been made virgin both physically and spiritually. Both forms transgressed against GOD through physical and spiritual adultery/fornication. You are new person.
Are you a True Believer, by the way?
You wouldn't doubt the physical aspect if you have gone through physical transformation by GOD.

ROTFLOL!!!!

Oh my word! You always manage to pound out some new ridiculousness when I think you're all out!

I shouldn't be surprised that anyone takes your posts seriously, but I so am!

Oh Lord! What a laugh!!!

macnino399:
Good day everyone
Please I need a guide on how to grow spiritually besides just going to church. Thanks.

Hi there.

I wrote a thread summarizing the process at https://www.nairaland.com/6344450/christians-job-why-youre-here. Please peruse it and ask any questions you like. In the meantime, I will give a brief answer that I hope will give you the gist of what you will find on that thread.

First of all, it is not possible to grow spiritually alone. We need fellow believers to grow spiritually. In fact, as Ephesians 4:11-16 teaches, while we are responsible for our individual spiritual growth, we must take advantage of the gift of the pastor-teacher in order to grow spiritually and we must also do whatever we are able to in order to help others grow spiritually too.

This does not mean though that we have to go to church as it is done today in order to grow spiritually. In fact, Paul once told the Corinthians that their church meetings were doing more harm than good to them (1 Corinthians 11:17). So it is possible for church to be bad for you. But that does not mean that we should become loners doing our own thing with no regard or interest in other believers. It only means that we should diligently search for other believers who are committed to growing spiritually too just like we are. And when we find a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, we will also find such believers clustered around him.

Spiritual growth, however, is a steady development in faith in the teachings of the Bible. That is, it is the process of learning, believing, and diligently applying the teachings of the Bible. The Bible is a big and complex book. While we can read it and know what it says, God has ordained that some believers will be responsible to explain what it says to others. In the times before the Law of Moses, it was heads of families like Seth, Noah, and Abraham who both received direct revelation of God's Word and also interpreted it to their families. Under the Law of Moses, the priests and Levites were responsible to interpret the teachings of the Law to the rest of Israel. In the times of the Apostles, specially gifted prophets and teachers were able to receive direct revelation and supernaturally explain it too. Since the completion of the New Testament, however, only pastor-teachers who not only possess the gift of teaching, but have also grown spiritually under another pastor-teacher and have trained in certain specific ways and endured the tests of maturity are authorized by the Lord to teach the Bible to fellow believers.

By identifying and listening to such pastor-teachers, we can grow spiritually. Such people are rare and sometimes hard to find, but they exist, and the Lord will always bring anyone who is willing to grow to them.

Please note that spiritual growth is very hard. It takes time and patience (Hebrews 12:1). But it will change you in very pleasant ways and make you able to live the life that God calls us all to live. I hope that you will choose that path.

Please take a look at the thread I linked. It will explain things in more detail and with greater clarity, I believe. I'll be happy to help you any further if you want.

Cheers.

PS.: Please note that what I have written up is a very condensed summary of the subject of death and resurrection. There are many questions that I left unanswered for the sake of conciseness. Such questions include very many passages that appear to suggest to some people that we cease to exist after we die. There are also quite a few weird or difficult passages that weigh into the discussion. If I wrote to address them all, my answer would be a very long post indeed.

Suffice to say that I tried to answer your questions and at the same time cover the most basic biblical ideas about death and resurrection. So you have a good starting point for any further investigation into the matter from my post. I would be happy to help you further if you want, although Nairaland has taught me to expect little interest in the truth of the Bible's teachings. If you decide that you are different and want the unattended questions answered, I will do my best to answer them.

However, I must warn you that there is no doctrine of the Bible that can be understood in isolation. The whole Bible provides the necessary context for understanding any given biblical teaching. Therefore, it takes a deliberate commitment to spiritual growth to be able to make full sense of any given doctrine. If you are unwilling to make this commitment, then it is very likely indeed that you will still not be satisfied with any answers that you get. And where you are satisfied, you may be satisfied with a lie.

Nazgul:
Good morning and happy Sunday. This question has really been bothering me cos we've been made to believe that once a person dies, he'll either go to heaven or hell. But the Bible is saying something totally different.

Let's observe these three scriptures.

1Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Revelation 20:13-15
13 [a]And the sea gave up her dead, which were in her, and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 [b]And death, and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire.

[b] Matthew 22:23-46
23 (A)On that day some (B)Sadducees (who say (C)there is no resurrection) came to [a]Jesus and questioned Him, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘(D)If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; and the first married and died, and having no [c]children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 It was the same also with the second brother, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her in marriage.”

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, (E)since you do not [d]understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither (F)marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘(G)I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, (H)they were astonished at His teaching.


In the first scripture it talked about the rapture. The second coming of Christ. It says the dead in Christ shall rise first, meaning when people die good or bad, they remain the in ground according to that passage pending when the trumpet shall sound. But this contradicts what we were taught in Sunday School that once you die and you're a Christian you'll find yourself in Paradise.

The second passage confirmed the first passage that there are actually people in the ground whose souls are waiting for judgement. It says the sea gave up the dead, meaning those who died and we're buried in the earth, those buried in the water or anywhere else would be resurrected on the last day to face judgement. Here also doesn't speak of the dead immediately going to heaven or hell upon death.

Finally the last passage was an answer Jesus was giving to the Sadducees. He made them understand that even though there's a resurrection it would happen on the last day and not immediately after death.

My question is If the dead are already in heaven as we're made to believe, how do they rise at the second coming?

Or would they descend from heaven back to their graves on earth then resurrect to face the last judgement?

If all the evil people are already in hell, why will the sea and the earth give up the dead in them for judgement and why will the book of life be opened to check if their names are written on it since they've already been jugded and thrown into hell?

I'll like to be clarified on this issue.

Cc lalasticlala mynd44 Dominique

Hi there.

First off, I have read you say later in the thread that the Bible says that "chickens" (and I suppose, by extension all animals) don't have souls. I wonder where you read anything like that in the Bible. Of course, nobody and nothing has a soul. A soul is what anything becomes when it has a spirit put into its body.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

Furthermore, the Bible also says,

18 I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 (NKJV)

So, (1)the Bible says that animals have spirits just like human beings, although this should be obvious since it is a spirit that animates a physical body; (2)when animals die, their spirits go somewhere just like the human spirit does too when a human being dies.

To your specific question, however...

The first thing to say is that as you will see in the foregoing, human beings are spirits that live in physical bodies. So, there are two parts to the human person. What death actually does is, as you can see from Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 quoted above and from Ecclesiastes 12:7, separate our spirits from their physical vessels. Our spirits are the real us, so when we die, it is our spirits that go back to God to answer for our choices made while still in our physical bodies here on earth. This is the gist of Hebrews 9:27 too. Our bodies, on the other hand, decay and fall to dust here on earth.

What then is the resurrection? It is the provisioning of our spirits with an eternal material body. Our spirits were designed to live in a material vessel. They were not built to be "naked" (2 Corinthians 5:3 in Greek). So death is like robbery. It takes from our spirits their rightful homes and would have us walk naked. But of course, God is generous even so. When we die, He gives our spirits a temporary sheath (again, see 2 Corinthians 5:3 in Greek; see also Revelation 6:11) within which they exist in the place that our choices have assigned to us.

That brings us to a discussion of what happens to our spirits after we die. When we die, our spirits are put into a temporary or interim body and then taken to the place that fits our choices. If we chose to believe the Gospel and hold on to that faith until the end of our earthly lives, then we will be taken to the Third Heaven to be with God and all His elect angels and other departed believers. There, we wait for the time of Jesus's Return to the earth to take His Throne. At that time, all those who believe including departed saints are resurrected to live in perfect bliss with God forever.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-23 (NKJV)

The passage above demonstrates that when we die, we go to a place that is in keeping with our choices here on earth. The rich man was an unbeliever, so he was taken to and deposited in Torments in Hell/Hades/Sheol, as the Scriptures severally call it. This is not his final deposition either. All unbelievers who die until the end of Jesus' Millennial Reign (that is, until the end of human history) will be deposited in Torments. But they will be resurrected at the end of that Reign to face their final judgment and be deposited into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11-15). This Lake is indeed in the same place as Torments, in fact, it will fill the whole of Hades/Hell/Sheol, but Torments is really just a sort of holding cell for those who die as unbelievers. This is where the rich man in the passage above was. It isn't the same as the Lake of Fire, technically speaking.

The resurrection of the unrighteous involves giving them an eternal body for their spirits, but that eternal body is made for condemnation. Consider it a sort of tool provided for their spirits so that they can experience the full extent of suffering in the Lake of Fire that is due to them, just as our current bodies are a tool with which we experience life on earth currently.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 (NKJV)

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

On the other hand, those who die believing have always been taken to a place where they can commune with God and rest from life on earth. Before the Lord Jesus came and died for all human sin, such believers could not go into the Presence of the Father in the Third Heaven because their sins were not yet atoned for (animal sacrifices did not answer for sin, they only demonstrated faith in God's Messiah Whose then-coming Sacrifice alone could atone for our sins -- Hebrews 10:4). But because they believed in God's Promise to send a Messiah to die for their sins, they did not belong in Torments either. The Lord prepared a place especially for them in Hades/Hell/Sheol called Paradise (Luke 23:43) or Abraham's Bosom (Abraham's Bosom because the Bible recognizes him as the epitome of faith -- Romans 4:1,11-12). This is the place from where the spirit of Samuel came to King Saul in 1 Samuel 28, from where Moses and Elijah came to speak to Jesus Christ at the Transfiguration, and where Lazarus and Abraham are seen together by the dead unbelieving rich man. As the name suggests, it was a place of beauty and rest for all those who believed before the Cross. The only downside was that it was still cut off from the Presence of the Father, although of course, just as it was in the days of Adam and Eve, the Lord (Jesus Christ Himself before His first Advent) would go to fellowship with them frequently, so they were not left without God entirely.

After our Lord died on the Cross, He went to Hades where He proclaimed His Victory to the rebel angels who are imprisoned there (especially since the debacle of the Nephilim) because they did not know what had transpired on earth, and from where He took those departed saints as part of His spoils of victory to the Third Heaven with Him (Ephesians 4:8-9). His Sacrifice opened the way into the Presence of the Father for those saints, not only for them, but it also opened the way for every other believer who would die from the time after the Cross until the end of human history. So, all believers who have died since that time have been taken by the angels into the third Heaven where they rest in their interim bodies as they await the resurrection of the righteous.

In summary, I offer the following statements to answer your quandary:

1. When we die, our bodies, which are a legitimate God-given part of our identity, go into the ground or are destroyed in some way, even though our spirits are not in any way diminished. That is the point of resurrection: the restoration of a material body to our spirits, but this time the body remains ours for eternity.

2. Our spirits do go somewhere after we die since they are indestructible (Ecclesiastes 3:14). They either go to Torments if we are unbelievers or they go to the Third Heaven since the Cross if we are believers. Resurrection gives our spirits permanent eternal bodies or homes in which to either enjoy God's eternal blessings or to suffer His eternal cursing depending on our choices here on earth.

3. Hell is a big place that has been acting like a holding cell for all who are in it. Believers who died before the Cross were held in Paradise, one of the compartments of Hell, as captives of sin until Jesus Christ died for the sins of all mankind and they were free to go with Him to the Third Heaven. Unbelievers who die from the time of Cain until the end of history are held in Torments, another compartment of Hell, until their judgment at the White Throne at the end of human history. Rebel angels who violate the ground rules of their warfare with God are held in the Abyss, the third compartment of Hell, until the time of their release for the Tribulation. It is not yet a place of final judgment.

4. Hell will eventually be filled with the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14) after the Judgment of the Great White Throne. After that Judgment, all unbelievers and rebel angels will be consigned to it for all eternity.

Cheers.

EFULEFU1:
Please, what will be the signs that one is born again?

Thanks

Hi there.

This is what the Bible says:

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:18 (NIV)

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
Romans 10:6-18 (NIV)

It is actually a very easy thing to be born again. All it takes is to believe what the Gospel says about Jesus Christ: that He is God Who became a human being so that He could die for our sins. Faith in this Person defined in this manner, namely that He is both God and Man, and in what He did for us, namely that He exchanged His Life for ours is what saves us.

How do we know that we have faith? That is a hard question to answer. The reason is that we all know when we believe something and when we don't and yet we can't really explain how we do. For example, can anyone explain how they know that they really believe that the sun is a ball of hot gases? It's hard to explain how you know that you believe something, but you do know whether you believe something or not.

The same is true of salvation. To be saved, all we need is to believe the Gospel. It is possible to believe the Gospel and have a bad behavior (this is more often the case and not), although it is really ironic when anyone does that. Behavior is not what makes us born again or not, faith is.

However, James and John do teach us that one cannot claim to have faith if their faith does nothing at all (James 2:14-26; 1 John 3:10-24). This is also true of salvation. If we believe in Jesus Christ, there will be token actions that prove it. They may be too small for humans to notice but not for God, for example, Matthew 10:42 teaches that a cup of cold water given to a fellow believer is recognized as a good work by God. You may not even count that as evidence of faith, since do-gooder unbelievers may even do the same physical act albeit for different reasons.

Note that it is what goes on in the heart that proves that we are saved, not mere visible actions. The Lord Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites because although their visible actions were righteous, their hearts were antagonistic to God (Matthew 23:27-28). So the motives that drive our actions are the determinant factor. John says that we know that we are children of God because we love other children of God. That love may be small, but it will be there and it will make us do some small deed or other that benefits those other children of God in some way that may not even be known to us at the time. To prove that this is not mere appearance, John says that we know that we are children of God because we have the Holy Spirit inside us. It is that very Spirit that makes us do things like that even when we are not fully aware that we are doing them. James teaches the same thing although he does so in a more visceral way. So, this is not a brief for legalism and self-righteousness such as you find in so many churches today.

As long as we remain on the baby level of faith though, we are never really going to be very confident in our Salvation. This is why the Bible tells us to grow spiritually. Believing in Jesus Christ is supposed to start us on a journey. If we don't continue the journey, we will remain vulnerable to doubt and turning back. I discuss this in some detail at https://www.nairaland.com/6344450/christians-job-why-youre-here. Please feel free to peruse the thread and ask any questions you have. I'll be happy to discuss with you. In short, though, anyone who wants to have confidence in their salvation needs to grow spiritually and become mature, so that they can fulfill their own spiritual duty in the Church.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-16 (NKJV)

Cheers.

Uptheante:
In the story about a great man of valour called Jephthah who made a vow to offer as burnt offering to God anybody that first comes out of his house if God gives himvictory against the Ammonites. We learnt that it was his only child (a daughter) that first came out to welcome him & he had no option than to fulfill his vow by sacrificing her after giving her 2months to mourn her virginity in the mountains with her friends.
Now, here are my questions:

1. By fulfilling his vow to God does it mean that he actually sacrificed her as burnt offering to God in the same way animals are sacrificed to God?

2. If the answer to the first question is yes, then does it mean that God accepts human sacrifice (as burnt offering) at that time?

Remember that God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice Isaac & there was no record of any human sacrifice to God before & after the incident with Jephthah

3. Could it also be possible that probably Jephthah actually meant sacrificing his daughter to the service of God & not actual sacrifice that entails burning her to death?

Pls I'm eagerly awaiting your replies

Hi there.

These are excerpts from the passage in question:

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD, and said, “If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands, 31 then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.”
Judges 11:30-31 (NKJV)

34 When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing; and she was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he tore his clothes, and said, “Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low! You are among those who trouble me! For I have given my word to the LORD, and I cannot go back on it.”
36 So she said to him, “My father, if you have given your word to the LORD, do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, because the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the people of Ammon.” 37 Then she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me: let me alone for two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains and bewail my virginity, my friends and I.”
38 So he said, “Go.” And he sent her away for two months; and she went with her friends, and bewailed her virginity on the mountains. 39 And it was so at the end of two months that she returned to her father, and he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed.
Judges 11:34-39 (NKJV)

Straight to your questions then...

1. Judges 11:39 seems to say that he did. But we should also keep the provisions of the Law in mind.

2. I don't think that the fact that someone unilaterally decides to do something for or to someone else means that that person either wants or approves of what the one does. That is, I see no reason to think that because Jephthah made a rash vow, it means that God either wanted him to or approved of the vow. Additionally, it is clear from the Law that God hates human sacrifice (Deuteronomy 12:31; 18:10). So, Jephthah was acting unilaterally. God neither required the vow from him nor approved it.

3. As said in my response to your Question #1, Judges 11:31,39 suggests that Jephthah did indeed burn his daughter to death, but the Law did make provision for things dedicated to God. Since it was a human being who came out rather than an animal, it may be that the exceptions provided by the Law were made to apply in this case.

1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: When a man consecrates by a vow certain persons to the LORD, according to your valuation, 3 if your valuation is of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old, then your valuation shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. 4 If it is a female, then your valuation shall be thirty shekels; 5 and if from five years old up to twenty years old, then your valuation for a male shall be twenty shekels, and for a female ten shekels; 6 and if from a month old up to five years old, then your valuation for a male shall be five shekels of silver, and for a female your valuation shall be three shekels of silver; 7 and if from sixty years old and above, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels.
Leviticus 27:1-7 (NKJV)

We are not to be confused by verse 29 later in this chapter from which we have just quoted. Those "under a ban" were citizens of cities that were meant to be completely destroyed, like the Amalekites, for a famous example. This does not apply to Jephthah's daughter who was a Hebrew and not an enemy of Israel.

Given that at this particular time in history, Israel was not especially given to following God closely, it is entirely possible that Jephthah did not know that he had the option of redeeming his daughter in the manner described above, so she may have spent the rest of her life in exclusive service to the Temple, like Samuel later did when Hannah offered him to God.

Since Jephthah's daughter went to mourn her virginity and we know that the Law taught that no one was to burn his children as any kind of offering to God, it seems to me that Jephthah never made a burnt offering, but rather gave his daughter into the service of the Temple. Compare Anna the prophetess millennia later in Luke 2:37.

The5DME:
1) If God created Satan, and God is 'all knowing'; shouldn't he have known that Satan was going to rebel and why didn't he destroy Satan? After all, a created being can't be greater that it's creator. Don't tell me nonsense about freewill.

2) why did God desperately wanted us to be ignorant? What crime did Satan really commit for showing humans the secrets of the Gods? Why doesn't God want us to be like them? Why are they scared of we becoming as wise as them?

Please, ardent christians should help me with anwsers.

Cc: budaatum somvayina maximus69 jesusjnr2020

Hi there.

Since you have said not to tell you "nonsense about free will," I assume that you already know that answer, and you don't care about it. I won't bother you with it then. You can ignore my answer. I'm only making it because you asked good questions, and I think that others might benefit from it.

1. The answer is obviously free will. God is Love. So it makes sense that He made at least some of His Creatures with an ability to choose whether they will love Him or reject Him. Love is not imposing. Love is a thing of choice. So we can choose whether to love God or not. Satan chose not to love God and decided instead to rebel against Him. God then allowed him to be the source of that choice to other creatures, so that it is clear to every creature that has free will that they do have a choice whether to love God or to reject Him. The angels made their own choices, and now we humans are making ours.

2. I'll break this up into multiple answers since you asked multiple questions.

(a) I don't know any part of the Bible that teaches that God wanted human beings to be ignorant. He did tell Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, but I don't see how that means that He wanted them to be ignorant. God came down and spent every evening with the couple. Given Jesus's lifestyle as described in the Gospels and the fact that Adam was the one whom the Lord gave the responsible of taxonomy, it seems obvious to me that the Lord was teaching them about Himself and the world that He created for them and their children. The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil only provided information about moral good and evil, something that Adam and Eve did not need since they did not sin and they knew the Lord Who is Himself the definition of good. On top of that, the very business of Christianity and faith in God is all about learning Who God is and what His plan for creation is. So, it is clearly false that God wants us to be ignorant.

(b) Obviously too, Satan lied. God was not hiding any useful secrets from Adam and Eve. Eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil did not give them the knowledge of the "Gods." It only taught them the many shapes of moral good and evil, that is, it gave them an expanded conscience. They did not need this before because God was teaching them all about "good" and they had no sin nature. There was only one evil thing that they knew: eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After eating that fruit, they became aware of other forms of evil including murder, for example, when Cain decided that the way to deal with his unpleasant feelings toward his brother was to kill him.

(c) Interestingly, the whole business of spiritual growth for Christians is that we will become like Jesus Christ Who is Himself, God. In fact, the Lord Jesus tells us to be like God the Father in Matthew 5:48. Learning all the Bible's teachings too is how we come to know what God Himself knows although we are taught too that we will never know it all until we have been resurrected in a perfect body. So, I would say that there is no biblical reason to think that God doesn't want us to be like Him. If anyone points to Genesis 3:22-23, I would argue that while knowing more about what good and evil are made us naturally independent (in a rebellious sense, of course) of God (as your attitude here and the attitude of human beings in general prove) in our moral choices, it certainly did not put us on a par with God. We are gods because we have free will, which is a mirror of God's own sovereign will, but we are not God. We are still limited by our own bodies and by our circumstances, neither of which limitation God suffers.

(d) It is actually impossible to be as wise as God. God is Wisdom itself. There is no wisdom outside of God. When we try to compete with God in wisdom, what happens is that we become remarkably foolish. God offers us His Wisdom in the Bible if we are willing to listen to and learn from Him. If we are not, then we may fend for ourselves as we please. But we soon find that if we are not accepting His Wisdom, then we really are not wise at all.

Uptheante:
When Saul asked the witch at Endor to summon the spirit of Samuel for him & she did. My questions are as follows:

1. Was it actually the spirit of Samuel, a prophet of God that came out or it's a familiar spirit?

2. If it's actually Samuel's spirit, then is it possible for a witch ( a devil's associate) to summon d spirit of God's prophet? Remember that as a prophet of God, his spirit is most likely with God. Then how can a witch summon his spirit from God's presence?

3. If it is actually a familiar spirit ( most likely a demonic spirit acting like Samuel) that she summoned instead of the actual Samuel's spirit then how come the spirit could prophecy accurately what would happen to Saul & his family?

Remember that the spirit spoke to Saul as if he's delivering a message from God (a familiar/demonic spirit can't do that.

Pls if u know the answer, let it flow

Hello there.

Good questions.

1. Yes indeed, it was Samuel who came up. The Bible itself reports that it was Samuel who did.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:12-19 (NKJV)

As you can see from the above, it is the Bible itself that calls the person that showed up Samuel. The story does not report that either Samuel or the woman identified the spirit in any way. The identification was made by the Bible itself. So, we can be confident that it was indeed Samuel.

2. No, it is not possible for anybody at all to summon a departed spirit. Those who have died are out of the reach of all but God. Only God can confer the right to call anyone out of Hell/Hades/Sheol. Although it is certainly a popular idea that Satan is in Hell and rules over it or some such, he actually has no ability to mess with that part of existence. Satan and his fellow rebel angels actually are afraid of Hell because it also houses a prison for them whenever they violate any of God's ground rules for them (Jude 1:6; 1 Peter 3:19). So, the medium could not summon Samuel. Even if she had the power of Satan himself backing her, she could never have violated the gates of Hades. It doesn't matter if the spirit being summoned is that of a believer or that of an unbeliever: No one can bring anybody up from the dead without God's express authority.

To the other part of your question, departed believers who died before the Cross of Jesus Christ were kept and preserved in Paradise (Luke 16:22; Luke 23:43), a place of rest and communion with God -- also in Hades but separate from the place of Torments where unbelievers who died were and are deposited -- but they did not go into the Presence of the Father in the Third Heaven. This is because their sins were not yet atoned for, although they obviously placed their faith in God's Messiah Who was later to come and make that atonement for them. After He did, the Bible says that He "led captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8-9; Psalm 68:18 ), that is, He freed them from their "exile" from God and brought them with Him to the Third Heaven. That is where every believer who has died since the Cross is taken now.

3. As has already been said, it was Samuel. But that does not mean that evil spirits cannot make accurate prophecies.

1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (NKJV)

16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days.
But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.
Acts 16:16-19 (NKJV)

As long as we think that evil spirits are unable to do "genuine" miracles or make "genuine" prophecies, we are going to be susceptible to their deceit. We should listen to what the Bible says and not leave ourselves open to that kind of deception.

Cheers.

vybzkartel:

Genesis 24:2-3
[2]So Abraham said to the oldest servant of his house, who ruled over all that he had, “Please, put your hand under my thigh,

[3]and I will make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell;


It is the Lord Jesus Christ, not Satan!

Hi there.

Since I have already discussed this on a recent thread of yours, I assume that you neither accepted my previous answer then nor wish to discuss it now. That is alright. I don't insist on either acceptance or discussion. Still, I think that this new post is an opportunity for further explanation. Perhaps it will help others who are concerned about the same issue.

In short, we Christians know that it is our God Who rules over creation. Still, the Bible says that Satan attempted to take God's Throne. It also teaches that Satan is usurping rule over the Earth right now. But it also teaches that God has not left matters that way. He has been challenging Satan's claim to power until now. With the Cross of Jesus Christ, He dealt a death blow to Satan's ambitions and made it clear that he would never win this war that he has been waging against God.

This means the following. Satan is a rebel warlord. He took control of some territory. He cannot rule it in peace though because the rightful Ruler continues to challenge his power and is on course to destroy his rule over that territory. The Bible will not say that God is not the God of Heaven and Earth, just because Satan deceived Adam -- God's regent over the earth -- into handing the Earth over to him. God is still the rightful God of the earth despite Satan's claim to the right to rule the earth. Satan is only a usurper.

The problem is in thinking that Satan is not exercising any authority over the earth at this moment. He very much is. That is what the Bible means when it calls him the "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4) or the prince of this world (John 14:30; 16:11). It is also why the Bible teaches that a powerful angel sent on a mission to Daniel by the Lord God Himself can be held up by rebel angels who maintain spiritual oversight of nations (Daniel 10:13,20).

If we fail to believe both biblical teachings -- that God is the rightful God of creation and that Satan is currently usurping His authority over the earth -- then we will end up fighting against God when He allows Satan to do certain things that we feel that he has no right to do. For this reason, both Peter and Jude warn that false teachers disrespect Satan and his fellow rebel angels and teach others to do the same.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
2 Peter 2:10-12 (NIV)

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
Jude 1:8-10 (NKJV)

John too tells us that this world lies in the evil one, that is, it is under the control of Satan. This is to warn us to be careful about getting too deeply involved with it. We don't belong to it. So we should not concern ourselves with it until our King comes and destroys its ruler.

How does Satan's rule work? Through men (Ephesians 2:2). The vast majority of the human race are in league with Satan through their rejection of the Gospel. As long as they reject the Gospel, they will be agents of Satan's will whether wittingly or not. So his rule over the earth does not contradict Psalm 115:16. If there was no human being who rejects the Gospel, Satan would have no claim to the earth, but not only did our father Adam join his cause by his disobedience, we all do the same from birth because of our sin nature. So Satan has a very wide influence over the earth because of our own sinfulness.

This is what we are expecting the Return of Jesus Christ to change. When the Lord Jesus returns and resurrects the Church, He will destroy sin in our bodies by swallowing mortality up in immortality. Then He will destroy all those who joined the Antichrist by accepting his mark. Then Satan and his fellow rebels will be imprisoned in the Abyss for a thousand years, so that even if anyone continues to reject the Gospel in the Millennium, Satan will not be in a position to use their disobedience to accomplish anything anymore. This is a crucial part of the renewal of the earth that all believers are taught to look forward to in the Bible.

None of this is something that we are permitted to try to do anything about today. Our fellow human beings have a right from the Lord to make their own eternal choices without undue interference from us. We ought to proclaim the Gospel to them if they are willing to listen to us. But we are not to force them to live life the way that we think that they should.

6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 10:6 (NKJV)

As Paul makes clear above, we believers will only be in a position to punish all disobedience when our own obedience is fulfilled. This is also what the Lord Jesus teaches in Matthew 7:1-5. As long as we still have to deal with sin in our own selves, we are really in no position to judge others. We are responsible to mind our own spiritual walk with the Lord and do our best to please Him. When He has made us perfect, then we can judge others. This is important to understand because we are the Body of Christ, so the Lord Who is our Head must wait for us to become perfect before He can, together with us, execute judgment on this world. The Lord will not punish the world when His Own House is not in order (1 Peter 4:17)

So, it is not our place today to try to fix the world and destroy Satan's operations in it. Our job is to escape his prisons and help others to do the same. In responding to the Gospel and growing spiritually, we do our job. When the Lord Jesus returns and perfects us, Satan's power over this world will finally be destroyed. Until then, we must endure the condition of things in this world as we are refined and steadily brought to perfection.

5.0 Conclusion: Your Job is To Grow Spiritually And Be Abundantly Fruitful for the Lord
There is very much indeed to say. This piece is a highly condensed description of the business of being a Christian because this is not the medium where such a thing can be explained comprehensively and in-depth, but this writer has some confidence that enough has been said to start the reader off on a directed quest for greater understanding in the matter.

For now, it is sufficient to say that God's Truth is what life here in this world is all about (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Literally nothing else matters at all. If we don't believe the Gospel, our lives are completely meaningless. If we do, then we have a real and an important job to do and there are incredible eternal rewards attached to it. We would be wise to get cracking on that job.

It is not by any means an easy process or even one that is popular at all. But we have excellent reasons to get on with it anyway. This writer urges you, reader, to take the bull by the horns and get on the job. Whatever the reason why you think that you don't need to, please think about the unpleasant alternatives (remaining in ignorance of the Lord and risking falling away from the faith) and commit to this path. Hard and painful as it is guaranteed to be, it is well worth everything that we suffer for it. The Lord Himself guarantees that to us.

If you're wondering where to go to find a teacher, this writer strongly recommends https://ichthys.com where he himself received training and continues to find support as he prepares for a full-fledged pastor-teaching ministry and www.bibleacademyonline.com where there is another excellent teacher if you prefer videos. What matters is not where or who but that you learn the Bible accurately and comprehensively and become able to do your part in the Body of Christ so that you can qualify for the rewards that God calls everyone of us to.

Grace and peace be with all God's children.

4.1 Identifying our spiritual gift(s). The first thing to do, of course, is to identify what our spiritual talents or gifts are so that we can begin to hone them for our job. This is something that exercises some believers who are zealous for God.

The short answer to how to identify those gifts is spiritual growth. As we get to know and understand the Lord and His Plan, we are changed (Romans 12:2) and our spiritual gifts start to respond to that understanding. We find ourselves instinctively doing certain things in response to our growing love for the Lord and to our growing understanding of His Plan. If we pay attention, those things we are doing will lead us steadily to a clear identification of what our spiritual gifts are.

What gifts can we have? There is a long list of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, another in Romans 12, and yet another in Ephesians 4. None of them is exhaustive. There are about as many spiritual gifts as there are Christians. The confusion about spiritual gifts today is tied to the Pentecostal Movement that started late in the 19th century just as the momentum of the Reformation died down. Suffice to say that much that is popularly taught about it is wildly wrong. It is enough to say that each spiritual gift has clear utility in promoting the spiritual growth and welfare of other believers and in helping willing unbelievers come to the faith. Each gift is given when we become saved. Spiritual growth is only needed to awaken and define it.

4.2 Developing Our Spiritual Gifts. It bears repeating that our spiritual gifts are developed as we grow spiritually. As we learn the truth, believe it, act on it, and help fellow believers to do the same, we become more and more like Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18) and that also impacts our spiritual gifts. We find ourselves improving in our understanding of our own selves (Matthew 10:39) and of our talents so that we can more deliberately shape them in the right ways.

4.3 Using our Spiritual Gifts. As we understand them better, we can plan how we deploy our spiritual gifts for the benefit of our brothers and sisters in Jesus. It takes considerable spiritual maturity to become able to plan our use of our talents and no longer be haphazard in our use of them. That planning and deployment is essentially full-fledged ministry.

4.4 Ministry is All About The Truth. It bears repeating that our spiritual gifts are not for show and that they certainly are not for our private consumption. We are not given gifts so that we can feel important for having them. Our spiritual gifts are merely our unique spiritual talents and skills to be used to help others to either come to know or grow in their appreciation of God's Truth.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all
1 Corinthians 12:7 (NKJV)

4.0 Ministry: The Culmination of Spiritual Growth
The end or goal of spiritual growth is ministry. That is not to say that we no longer have to grow spiritually once we come into our ministry. Rather it is to say that this is the reason we grow spiritually: in order to be able to do our share of Christ's work in this world helping unbelievers to come to the faith and helping fellow believers grow spiritually and fulfill their own individual ministries. Obviously, the more we grow spiritually, the better we will do this job of ours. So, we don't stop growing until we are doing our job perfectly (an unattainable feat in this world, although we are responsible to approximate as closely as life, breath, and everything else that God gives to us for this duty permits).

But what is ministry? It should be obvious that it is not just teaching the Scriptures, although because of the rarity of spiritual maturity today, it tends to appear like it is the only work of ministry in the Church. Ministry is really everything that we do to help other people get to know and walk productively with the Lord. The gift of a cup of cold water given to a believer because he or she is a believer (Matthew 10:42) is literally ministry. The word itself is an old synonym for service. So what service we render to others on behalf of the Lord Jesus in keeping with His Principles is ministry even if it is not done from a position of pastor-teaching.

However, we are particularly concerned with full-fledged ministry here. That is the equivalent of a spiritual career. Just as we go to school to acquire a set of skills and get a degree in order to be able to pursue a professional career, we grow spiritually to reach a fundamental point of spiritual maturity at which we become able to pursue a spiritual career helping fellow believers with a unique set of spiritual skills.

In this section, we discuss how we do that.

3.7 Keep Your Eyes on The Prize. Spiritual growth is not only hard, it also never ends while we are still alive. Not only that, Satan and this world in which we live are violently opposed to it, so we get pretty compelling reasons from them to quit. How do we stay focused and keep pushing through?

We do that by keeping in mind that God has promised incredible rewards to everyone who perseveres in it until the end. Although even the least believer will earn rewards that will make this world's riches look like a stinking heap of garbage, there are higher levels of eternal reward that make that least believer's reward look like a consolation prize.

Every small act of true faith in Christ, every small effort to endure the fiery trials of this life, every small show of love for God's children will be rewarded by the Lord Jesus (Matthew 10:42). Growing to spiritual maturity, however, fetches one the first eternal crown -- the crown of righteousness (2 Timothy 4:8 ). Enduring the tests of maturity (very unpleasant and daunting experiences that test our faith in the Lord) fetches one the second -- the crown of hope (James 1:12; Revelation 2:10). Fulfilling one's ministry, that is, having discerned and developed one's unique spiritual gifts, to use them to help those unbelievers marked for salvation to come to the faith and to help fellow believers grow spiritually and fulfill their own ministry fetches one the third and highest crown -- the crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4).

These rewards may not sound like much because we tend to view the value of things in terms of lack. In this world, pain is normal, so we attach a great deal of value to things that ease that pain. In the world to come, there will be no pain, so we tend to wonder what difference great rewards will make then. Suffice to say that we will be very pleased to find that it makes a great deal of difference. Everything we endure here and all the work we put in for the truth here out of love for the Lord and for His children will carry such a weight of glory as to put us to shame for even doubting its value.

It is good to keep in mind that it is this very same motivation that made the Lord Jesus able to run His Own Race and pay the terrible price that He paid for us on the Cross. Even if we don't see how eternal rewards can be such a big deal, we would do well to still follow the example of our Lord Jesus from whom we have elected to learn anyway.

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:1-2 (NKJV) (cf. Philippians 2:5-11)

3.6 Help Others to Grow Spiritually too. It is actually impossible to grow spiritually without doing this. In our earthly life, we soon learn that it is by helping others do what we are learning to do that we get good at doing it too. In spiritual matters, this is doubly true since spiritual growth is really in order for us to become able to help others find and believe the Gospel and grow spiritually too using our unique spiritual gifts.

12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.
John 13:12-14 (NKJV)

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2 (NKJV)

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
1 John 3:16-18 (NKJV)

3.5 Apply What You Learn. As James teaches us, it is impossible to believe something without actually doing it or using it in some way. This is how we can even know if we believe what we claim to believe.

As the example of the soldier above shows, if we believe that our drill sergeant is correct about how to clean, strip down, load, and fire our weapons, then we will simply do what he says. If we don't believe it, then we will not do it. It's that simple. So we must use what we learn from the Scriptures in our daily lives.

If, for example, we learn that the Bible teaches that marriage is meant to be used to raise godly children (Malachi 2:15), then choosing a spouse on the basis of their demonstrated ability and inclination to raise godly children is just the right way to apply that. We don't ignore what we learned and then pick the prettiest or richest partner we could get and still claim to believe that teaching.