I am a Christian. It is quite complicated I have been a Pentecostal then Catholic then Pentecostal then back to Catholic. I am just so tired of churches, but I believe in Jehovah, the I am that I am, I believe in Jesus, I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe in some parts of the bible, I don't believe in the part that says women must be submissive to men.
There was a miracle that happen to me four years ago, the most traumatic night of my life it involved my life in danger ( I choose not to reveal exactly what happened its very private) God saved me twice that night. That night I believed in God 100% I would have not made it without him. It is the greatest miracle in my life. About a year and a few months later when I was sick of the Pentecostal church I was attending, uncessary demands of my time, energy and what not, God revealed to me that I can worship Him on my own in Spirit and in truth. So I started fellowship witn God at home every Sunday. And I learnt a lot, after a year plus, he lead me to Catholic Church telling me that all Churches are almost the same, they serve Him in different ways. He told me that Catholic was more suitable to my personality, so I am back to Catholic now.
The Holy Spirit has revealed to me the Bible is still being written. That a lot of pastors, evangelists, pope words are going to be added to the Bible. Thier miracles, crusades its going to be added. Female pastors, evangelists are going to be added to. The Holy Spirit revealed to me, that God stance towards the female race has changed. That God heart changes: like the Old testament and the New Testament, there is going to be another testament.
I respect other's religion. Different people are different. Religion sometimes is attached to culture and tradition. Whether a person is Muslim, Atheist, Buddist, Hindu I respect thier religion.
The Bible doesn't say women should be submissive to men. It says a wife should be submissive to her husband. That doesn't make women inferior to men. When Adam fell, God cursed the woman in Gen 3 that the man shall rule over her. That's why in the old testament, women were seen as inferior. Their place was to be ruled by men. Men could have as many wives as possible because women were like property. Jesus death restored woman to her original position. That's why Galatians 3 verse 28 talks about men and women being one (equal) in Christ. So why should a wife be submissive to her husband? As beings, men and women are equal. But in the context of a marriage, the husband is considered the head while the wife should submit to him, that is meant for orderliness in the home. That doesn't make the wife an inferior human being to her husband. For instance, we are to respect our parents even when we feel we are old enough to make our decisions, we still respect and submit to our parents. That doesn't make us inferior human beings to our parents. It only means in the context of the family, our parents are higher than us. The day we decide to act as the head of the family when our parents are still alive, what will that cause? Chaos. Disorderliness. So Christianity actually supports gender equality my sister. Its unfortunate what happened to you. Tradition and Religion has deceived many men and unfortunately, women to believe that one gender was made above another. We have to be free of this mentality. And as for Churches? I don't look down or discriminate any church as long as they preach the word of God. Like a pastor used to say, you will only flourish where you can grow. Apple trees don't grow in the south. So you need to find where u will grow and you will flourish. If that is Catholic, fine.
Everything in the bolded is correct. And thank you for using the word some which means minority
You are not a super hero. You dont have to stand up for everyone. Violence is not the answer to anything. You should escalate a fight. You should settle it and do the moat peaceful thing possible
I think you are missing the point. The OP is directed at men who feel they are superior to women. If these men didn't think they were superior in the first place there won't be violence. Most men need to be taught that they aren't superior to women. As long as we are all human beings, we are equal. Male or female.
This is going to be my last reply to you cause I'm sure, as that guy said, this is all just a waste of time.
Lol, seriously your comment had me laughing. It didn't say you just chase people out of your land but that you should chase them out from where they have chased you, that was the order and to answe that, I haven't chased anyone out of my land because they haven't chased me.
And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.
Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] oppress.
Please go over the verses slowly and again, correct your misconceptions.
And in the below surah, the reason they were commanded to fight in the first place is because the disbelievers broke their treaties and attacked them. Go over the surah from the beginning so you can stop jumping into conclusions.
But if they break their solemn pledges after having concluded a covenant, and revile your religion, then fight against these archetypes of faithlessness who, behold, have no [regard for their own] pledges, so that they might desist [from aggression].
Would you, perchance, fail to fight against people who have broken their solemn pledges, and have done all that they could to drive the Apostle away, and have been first to attack you? Do you hold them in awe? Nay, it is God alone of whom you ought to stand in awe, if you are [truly] believers!
Yes, there is difference between disbelievers and hypocrites. Hypocrites are those who claim to be believers but are really disbelievers in disguise, they plot against the prophet and drive people away from the religion, pay attention and please go over those verses I posted again and you will note the differences.
Sorry, but please can you send this post again, but with the Surah chapters in numbers I understand (I love to crosscheck) and without the Arabic thingy. I can't read it, so there is not point. Thank you. But if you say this is the last time you will reply me (thought we were having a discussion. Meant no offense), then there is no point because even my reply will be ignored. Thank you.
aminusanti: ilynem, I thought we discussed already in large on these verses but you are here deliberately removing those verses out of their historic context..
Sorry, but you really haven't replied the last post I sent you. I am not convinced about the "historical context". Check the last post I sent you on the other thread.
Oh really? That's why? Because the rest are hypocrites? Do you even know those the word was applied in the Quran? Hahaha, very funny. Do you know there is an entire chapter based on hypocrites?
So according to you, those terrorist who are Islamic, kill and bomb Muslims in the mosques be cause the Quran referred to them as hypocrites? Let me clear your misconceptions then.
WHEN THE HYPOCRITES come unto thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed God's Apostle!" But God knows that thou art truly His Apostle; and He bears witness that the hypocrites are indeed false [in their declaration of faith].
They have made their oaths a cover [for their falseness], and thus they turn others away from the Path of God. Evil indeed is all that they are wont to do:
this, because [they profess that] they have attained to faith, whereas [inwardly] they deny the truth - and so, a seal has been set on their hearts so that they can no longer understand [what is true and what false].
Contrary to who or what you think hypocrites referred to in the Quran, the above chapter has clearified it. Hypocrites are those who claim to believe yet don't really believe but pretend in order to spy and turn people away from the religion.
So does that fit into the idea you have of those being boomed in the mosques as hypocrites?
Err...Yes! Because the terrorists believe that if you were a true Muslim, you will take up arms and fight the non Muslims till they pay the Jizya with willing submission or turn into Muslims. If you were not a hypocrite, you will fight! The message is clear. A hypocrite is one who claims to believe in Allah and his messages but doesn't act accordingly. Do not be friends with non Muslims. You have Muslim friends. Fight the unbelievers wherever you find them. You don't fight. Muhammad had the plan to chase all non Muslims out of the Arabia peninsula. You follow him don't you? How many non Muslims have you chased out your land?? If I claim to be a Christian and I don't follow the teachings and life of Christ, what does that make me? A hypocrite. Surah 9:73: Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell. Notice the use of the word "and"?? It means the disbelievers are not the hypocrites. If you are a Muslim and you don't follow the instructions of the prophet to the latter, am sorry my sister! You are a hypocrite and that's why Boko boys will be after you too.
Yup! I have wondered. But sir, there is a death penalty in Islam for adultery and blasphemy. So YES! Muslims can kill other Muslims who do not obey the laws of Islam. For instance, Aisha (Muhammad's favourite wife) was a true Muslim. Ali the fourth Caliph was a true Muslim. These two knew Muhammad personally. And yet they sent armies against each other. So there you have Muslim killing Muslim. So a true Muslim might not kill a true Muslim but what about those that are not "true" Muslims? Or those that don't live right? Jihadists believe moderate Muslims are not true Muslims because they are not taking up arms against non muslims when the Koran tells them to Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell (Koran 9:73). And oh! That's the word I was looking for! "Hypocrites". Hypocrites in Islam are those who say they believe but act like they don't. So they are " Muslims" but not "True Muslims". A hypocrite in Islam can be recognized by a reluctance to follow Sharia, fear of death (Koran 9:56), RELUCTANCE TO FIGHT (Koran 9:44-45) and FRIENDSHIP TOWARDS NON MUSLIMS (Koran 9:67). Wanted to go on, but I guess u have gotten point.
deezzle: In my opinion we Muslims need to take the bold step of challenging the very idea that the Qur’an and Sunna are infallible. This will come as a shock to those of us brought up on the idea that the Qur’an is the perfect word of God, but some Muslims are already doing this. Thinkers such as Abdul Karim Soroush from Iran, Sayyed Ahmad Al-Qabbanji from Iraq and Saeed Nasheed from Morocco are questioning traditional views about the Qur’an.Saeed Nasheed, in his recent book, Modernity & the Qur’an, said: “The Qur’an is not the speech of God, just as the loaf of bread is not the work of the farmer. God produced the raw material, which was inspiration, just as the farmer produces the raw material, which is wheat. But it is the baker who turns the wheat or flour into bread according to his own unique way, artistic expertise and creative ability. Thus it is the Prophet who was responsible for interpreting the inspiration and turning it into actual phrases and words according to his own unique view.”
Why is this such an essential step? Because once you stop protecting ideas on the basis that “God said it”, you create a level playing field where good ideas can battle it out with bad ideas on an equal footing. It allows reason to be the deciding factor for whether something is accepted or rejected, rather than: “Because it’s written – that’s why!” No more searching for tenuous interpretations or changing the meaning of words into something else, just so we can avoid the problematic and uncomfortable meanings.
As long as we refuse to appreciate that the Qur’an may be divinely inspired but is human-authored, we will be forced to continue playing the game of the fundamentalists and disarming ourselves of the only weapon that can defeat them – reason. Only when we recognise that the Qur’an and Sunna are fallible can we free Islam from the prison of dogma we placed it in.
Please just admit its the hate you have for Islam that is making you ignore all that has been said here.
Political correctness you say? So you do know he is correct, thanks for admitting it.
Book hara are Islamic terrorist right? Can you then tell me why mosques has been one of their target places?
As I've always said, when you hate something you go as far as accepting any lies fabricated against it and reject any truth about it if it affects the illusions you use in justifying your hatred against it.
I think the last part of her sentence is highly unneeded, "Pray they catch up with OP so that they kill him"?
I hope its just a badly delivered sarcasm
But you lot don't believe in prayers so it shouldn't matter to any of you, right? And obviously, she didn't mean that. Analice107 is a good Lady. She doesn't wish death on anyone.
Well, I know quite a lot about the religion and about other religions. I have read about the history of the Islamic world and other parts of the world. I know terrorism is only a very recent phenomenon within Islam, which arose within curious circumstances. And I know various religions can be used as an excuse for any malicious action. The western roman empire used Christianity and the bible as an excuse for the crusades, which was clearly a political movement. That doesn't mean Christianity supports killing of innocent people or that Christians are bad.
Ehm, last time I checked, Boko haram amd Alshabab swore allegiance to ISIS and Al Qaeda. This proves they are cut from the same cloth. I invite you to read about terrorist attacks in various countries and examine the result of the attacks and the effect they have on the political and economic balance of the state. Also examine the immediate actions of western governments and corporations in their efforts to "ease" and "curb" the unrest. Have you asked yourself who is sponsoring boko-haram? Where they are getting their sophisticated weapons from? We all have brains. Let's use it.
Anyway, you raised some arguments, so I'll address them. You claimed that the Islamic terrorists use the Quran to justify their actions. Now, does that mean the Quran is what motivates them to do what they do? If that's the case, then why isn't every Muslim in the world committing acts of terrorism? I mean, if according to you the Quran rightly states that killing innocent people is the best way to serve Allah, and convert people to Islam, why isn't every Muslim doing it?
And I want to ask you a question. Do you have even the slightest knowledge of the inception of Islamic terrorism? Do you know the factors that led to it's rise and growth? Could you lay them out to me?
Anyone can commit any action and justify this action with anything. It doesn't mean that this thing is what drove them to commit that action. Rather, the pattern of result of an action and results of consecutive similar actions, is a more reliable way of judging intent and motivation. Have you ever asked yourself why people who claim to be terrorists trying to expand the Islamic faith are actively killing the members of their own faith than they kill so called infidels?
It's a good thing you mentioned Osama bin Ladin. Now let me ask you a question, why did Osama Bin Laden attack the United States in 2001? Could you explain what his reason was? Now, what's the result of his so called terrorist attack? I'll tell you - The result of the Osama's attack on the world trade center and the Pentagon, was the invasion of Afghanistan and the destabilization of their government and the murder of millions of innocent lives, despite the Afghan government explicitly asking the United states to give them permission to extradite Osama and his sect, to which the US refused. Another result of this attack was the creation of the Taliban in Afghanistan from the power vacuum left by the United States. Bearing in mind that the Taliban was originally the mujahideen which the US used to oppose the Soviet forces during the Soveit-Afghan war?
I'll also like to add that Osama bin Laden was fighting along side the United states supported Mujahideen during the Soviet -Afghan war and there are claims that Osama's sect was also supported by the CIA. These claims haven't been proven to be completely factual however. But the fact that Osama fighted along side the Mujahideen is incontrovertibly true.
Yup! I have wondered. But sir, there is a death penalty in Islam for adultery and blasphemy. So YES! Muslims can kill other Muslims who do not obey the laws of Islam. For instance, Aisha (Muhammad's favourite wife) was a true Muslim. Ali the fourth Caliph was a true Muslim. These two knew Muhammad personally. And yet they sent armies against each other. So there you have Muslim killing Muslim. So a true Muslim might not kill a true Muslim but what about those that are not "true" Muslims? Or those that don't live right? Jihadists believe moderate Muslims are not true Muslims because they are not taking up arms against non muslims when the Koran tells them to Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell (Koran 9:73). And oh! That's the word I was looking for! "Hypocrites". Hypocrites in Islam are those who say they believe but act like they don't. So they are " Muslims" but not "True Muslims". A hypocrite in Islam can be recognized by a reluctance to follow Sharia, fear of death (Koran 9:56), RELUCTANCE TO FIGHT (Koran 9:44-45) and FRIENDSHIP TOWARDS NON MUSLIMS (Koran 9:67). Wanted to go on, but I guess u have gotten point.
Why are you reaffirming what she said? Again, I never said terrorism doesn't exist, what I said was that Islamic terrorism doesn't exist. Meaning that the predominant perception of terrorism as being orchestrated by people within Islam, who want to make erect a global caliphate, through global Jihad, is demonstrably untrue.
Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”
I never said terrorism doesn't exist. I said the belief that it's an Islamic phenomenon is what's not true. Meaning, the belief that it's a Jihadist movement that originated within Islam and is supported by the Islamic society, is what's not true.
You've not made any reasonable argument here. All you just did was yell at me.
If you are familiar with the Koran, the Hadiths and the sunnah, then you can go ahead and make your argument. But if you are not, my brother don't even bother.
Today a person can only be ignorant of facts if he/she chose to be and as for anyone who choose to apply no sense n sincerity when learning he/she will surely stand in front of our creator to defend himself alone one day..
you just dnt know but people are doing their level best out there to speak out n educate the ignorant once but one can not help those that are not ready to help themselves and in every religion we have these set of people...take NL for example how many sincere people will you find that are ready to accept facts even if its as clear as day?
as i said above, people are different some do and some don't and to educate people of other faith it is not a waste of effort it's equally important as well because today the way the media is bombarding people with negative/wrong msg on islam it's really too much and it can lead to serious conflict if care is not taken...so awareness and enlightening people is very important sir.
Who are the unbelievers these verses are talking about? they are those non-believers that use to pretend to be muslim when they are with the muslim but behind their back they plot against them.. This verse doesn’t ask the Muslims to do mindless slaughter as the media portrays or deceives. It gives the Muslims the permission to fight only those non-Muslims who do not pay jizya – the state tax. And we all know that jizya is applicable only in an Islamic state. Neither India, nor US or Britain are Islamic states. So to put this verse as an excuse for what happened there only shows how biased, unknowledgable and unfair the media is
Again, the verse permits the muslims to fight the non –muslims in an islamic state ONLY and ONLY if they refuse to pay the jizya – Willingly . Re-read the verse from ANY translation if you are not sure. But once they pay the jizya tax they can continue to believe in their atheistic pagan beliefs, but it will be under an Islamic state. You can still forgive them by not forcing them into Islam, nor oppressing them or being bad to them because of their wrong beliefs.
*Whats JIZYA? JIZYA ISN’T A RANSOM OR A BAD THING now people might say isn’t it unfair that they have to pay the jizya tax? Not really. Since when is punishment for refusal to pay lawful taxes considered as terrorism? Also, the jizya tax is very cheap and affordable, and it grants the non-Muslim’s many benefits, benefits which even the Muslims don’t get! For instance, the non-Muslims who are paying jizya in an Islamic state are not obliged to take part in any battle or war, unless they themselves choose to, the Muslims do not have this choice. Muslims have to actually burn their asses out to protect both Muslims and non-Muslims living in their lands. Also if the Islamic state cannot grant protection to the non-Muslims then the non-Muslims are not obliged to pay the jizya tax, since Muslims themselves must meet expectations for the jizya tax to be implemented. Also, Society today has no problem in paying taxes to the government, so therefore they should have no problem in paying a tax in an Islamic state either.
Moreover, people might now say well isn’t Islam violent because Muslims are commanded to fight those who do not believe in God and so on etc etc. Not really, because fighting in this verse does not explicitly mean physical violence. Observe the words in the above verses like “willingly”, “willing submission”, “readily” etc. Here it is spoken about bringing a change from within the hearts of people which is brought about intellectually. There are many ways in which you fight against somebody that does not involve a physical aspect. You can fight someone with the tongue, using your wisdom and telling him about the truth, you are fighting against the lies that person is propagating and eventually with your tongue you will speak the truth and crush his lies leading him to the truth. So fighting does not have to only be physical. check dictionary for more usage of "FIGHT" ..
Again! that hadith refers to pagan arabs
When we analysed the report in its historical context, we saw that the Prophet (p) gave amnesty and forgave the polytheists for the wrong they had done to the Muslims and their non-Muslim ally, Banu Khuza’a.
The polytheists Makkans with Banu Bakr attacked and murdered members of Banu Khuza’a, an ally of Prophet Muhammed. Previous to this incident, the Quraysh agreed to a treaty two years back promising not to break the treaty they agreed too with the Muslims. Soon after, the Quraysh with Banu Bakr attacked and murdered members of Muhammed’s ally, the Banu Khuza’a tribe. This led to the conquest of Makkah.
not at all, everything is as clear as wine for any sincere person to thats willing to know the truth. if everything is straight to point then where is the test?? we will all be on the same religion!.. there are hundreds of this in the bible but whoever take his time to know the actual historic context one will not question why but in the case of bible its mix-up there are many that are un-explainable with or without context. this is more like a test for us that will be use against us in front our creator.
Quick Noble Verses that refute the terrorism LIE in Islam:
“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)“
“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)“
“If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)“
“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:“
“And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)“
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)“
“Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God’s will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)“
“Say, ‘The truth is from your Lord’: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):……(The Noble Quran, 18:29)“
“If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)“
“Say: ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)“
“Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)“
I can spend my entire life showing you verses such as these that are littered throughout the Quran which throw the lie of terrorism out of the window.
Islam is so beautiful the way you present it my Brother. And honestly wish it was this way. I mean your description of the Jizya is quite nice. But let me start from the top. You claim there are people out there trying to educate the ignorant ones. Fair enough. My Bible tells me, train up a child in the way he should grow and when he grows up, he will not depart from it. For a religion that boasts of a single sect (let's agree the shittes are not Muslims), a united message and united people, I mean look at your description of the Hajj, so beautifully done. For religion that criticizes the Christians of having so many sects and then so different doctrines, you guys are pretty divided when it comes to your beliefs. And then we have to raise the questions, what kind of teachers teach these violent people? I don't know how you lot appoint your imams or teachers (I will love to be educated on that) but these large number of people who would love for the killing of apostates, weren't they properly educated by Imams when they were younger? Its easier to educate a child when he is young about something than try to change him when he already has a belief stuck in his head. Earlier on this thread someone posted a video of a supposed scholar who claimed that killing of apostates was the right thing to do in Islam. I have seen lots of videos of supposed scholars say the same thing. Recently I saw a video of a beautiful young Muslim girl and she was asked what she would do if her sister left Islam. Her answer was that her first instinct will be to kill her. Who educates these people?? Ex Muslims get death treat every single day. Why is the Muslim world doing nothing about these vile imams that teach these children all these "wrong" doctrines? And enlightening us is good. But it has little effect when we can see what the radicals can do. And not everyone has the patience to read the historical context of Surah 9:29. When they open it, they see a seemingly violent message and immediately they believe that is the manual the radicals are acting with. Its like me getting beat by a Muslim brother, and instead of you to stop the Muslim brother and tell him it is wrong for him to beat me up, you leave him to continue pounding me, while you scream "this is not what Muhammad thought us. This is not the way of Islam". Your effort should be directed at him not me. If he wasn't violent, I wouldnt even think Islam was a violent religion in the first place. We don't need the media to see what the radicals do. I didn't want to bring this up, but there is something about Islam that makes majority of you violent and intolerant. Muslims can't even accept criticisms without getting violent. I never argue with a Muslim in real life because I am scared for my life. Even here on Nairaland I don't reply a lot of Muslims because they get too abusive when their religion is being criticized. I now imagine if I was with them face to face? I remember the story of a woman being killed for refusing a Muslim to pray in front of her shop and a comment from a Muslim I saw on Facebook was " She was killed out of respect for the prophet." How sick is that I am not going to take the high ground and say I don't get offended when my faith is being bashed especially from the atheists. But getting violent does not even come into my head. If I believe I serve a living God, i shouldn't be doing the fighting for Him. So what exactly makes these Muslims so violent? Saw a video of a pastor who went to the Arabic festival to preach and you need to see how even the young Muslim kids verbally and physically attacked this man. This is not media, this is me seeing it live! Now let's look at Koran 9:29 again. Koran 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. You said I should take note of the word "willingly". Of course they have to pay Willingly or they will get killed. Now look that the above bolded. Doesn't that mean paying the Jizya is just so the non Muslims can feel subdued? It ain't for any form of protection from the Muslims my brother. It is so non Muslims can see that they are second class citizens. UNTIL THEY PAY THE JIZYA WITH WILLING SUBMISSION AND FEEL themselves SUBDUED!!! How clearer can that be? Now verse 28 talks about Allah enriching the Muslims. Verse 29 talks about the non Muslims paying the Jizya or die. It is so clear that the Jizya was only an option because the Muslims needed the money from the non Muslims. I don't see how clearer this can be? Now you talked about fighting with words. Even you don't fully believe that do you? Isn't this the chapter called the " verse of the sword" or something? OK. Let me get some quotes from Islamic scholars and how they interpret the Koran. Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.
Now for your peaceful verses. We all know that all these came when Muslims where in the minority. They can't had no choice but to be peaceful. But when they became the majority? Abrogation took place.
Qur'an 2:106—“Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?”
greenermodels: how can we have a positive balance of trade while the major world currencies are seriously depressing the naira.the exchange rate is not reflecting the report above, I'll wait for a report from a more credible source.
You are not far from the truth. But the truth is, for our the value of the naira to appreciate, we have to import less, that means we have to consume what we produce. Majority of the exports recorded are Crude oil. We don't consume crude oil, we consume refined oil which we import. So focus on locally made products will actually help grow our Naira not necessarily having more exports than imports
So if all these people think Killing apostates is the right thing, there are only two options. 1. It is actually correct according to Islam which means there something wrong with your religion. 2. You have some really terrible teachers giving these people the wrong ideas about your faith. Any which way, its a problem that people like you need to fix. If more people like you can speak out and educate the ignorant once, then maybe your religion will been seen in good light. But guess what? Even those who know the "truth" don't even border to speak up and educate the ignorant once. Instead they spend all their energy trying to educate us (who apparently know nothing about your religion) when your effort is needed else where. Now let's talk about "out of context" for a while. You usual claim is that when we quote violent passages in the Koran, we do it out of context. So, Sura 9 was probably the last verse revealed to Muhammad (correct me if I am wrong). Muslims where already the majority in Mecca and most places then. So they weren't fighting any sought of defensive war at that time. I will love you to explain to me, how I quote the following passages out of context. Koran 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Koran 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Koran 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Koran 9:31—They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ, the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
Koran 9:32—Fain would they extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
Koran 9:33—It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to prevail it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). I really do not see how people can explain this as none violent. Verse 29 says, "fight those who do not believe in Allah or the last day". Not those who attack you. Or persecute you. Fight them for not believing. How out of context is that? Verse 139 even says " fight those unbelievers that are near you and let them find in you hardness." This is actually a command to fight your neighbors and let them see hardness in you. Still struggling to see how this is quoted out of context. Now let's look at Sahil Muslim. Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.” Here is Muhammad saying he will fight people UNTIL THEY SAY THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH. That is, if i don't believe in Allah, Muhammad should fight me till I declare there is no God but Allah. Not because I am fighting Muhammad but simply because I don't believe.
Wanted to send this in The thread u plan to open but recalled we will be talking about the Bible. Not the Koran. So I sent it here. If all these things I have quoted don't mean what we all think they are, doesn't that make Allah a very bad communicator??
Let's be reminded to keep us in our prayers. We live in dark times, where everything around us is becoming satanic. Let's pray that our faiths fail not.
That has always been my prayer oh. And its good to know I have family here. Have a wonderful day.
A bit busy dear. But I have been checking up on you once in a while. I see your posts all the time. I have also been posting too though, but not as frequently as before. I hope you are good?
Yes sis, one man . To me you're more than many women. You're a combination of the qualities of a woman and the strength of a man.. I had no better qualification to use than to go for 'man'.
thanks alot and appreciated .. how have u been? longest time!
honestly you are blindly following this argument without full understanding, you can carry on posting all those fake media analysis images but the initial arguments was to prove this using the quranic scriptures by giving us the context of your claims or share with us few scholars as you claimed that support the apostasy law here lets see *why is it you people always give ref with saudi arabia as the origin of islam? Do jerusalem and the jewish people represent or follow xtianity as expected?
...as for the few countries like saudi that follow that law they dont just kill people for leaving islam it usually happens if the apostate spread lies or rumors against the religion or the islamic state/country in other to cause issues which fall into the category of the propehet mohammad (SAW)hadith for killing people that only embrace and leave or just leave in other to course confusion but the problem is you people will digest whatever comes to your ear if it's about islam without any further findings...what is the punishment for treason in most countries?
my reason for saying fake analysis is bcus in most of the countries you mentioned above they dont apply those law in their countries and even if they do maybe just some certain regions or tribe within use those laws but not the country as whole. countries like Indonesia (aceh), Malaysia, Thailand and Kazakhstan and some others they dont have this laws. long ago i lived and work in all these countries that i mentioned and currently i am living n working in Indonesia. there is no such law as you pple are blindly claiming, that research is only showing you how maybe how some muslim use to take judgement into their own hands by killing the apostate but not the government...here are my proofs that will prove ur analysis to be fake.. read the link below and also the screen shots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bel4y3zhkdc (Dr. Shabir Ally ~ Do countries such as saudi arabia represent true islamic way of life?) sorry not clear! whats ur question here pls? This is what "fulfill" means by scriptural definition: from Greek Word: "to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full" This has not one thing about doing away with any single Law or Commandment..thats arguement for another day, anytime u r ready just notify me pls.. No single doubt the Jesus in your scripture(paul edition) is a failure, there are are alot of lies, contradictions, unfulfilled prophesies and error all attributed to jesus by the authors of your scripture which we muslims cant believe is from God Almighty. anytime you are ready i can open a thread for that i will detail all for you to address..
most of the law that were given to the prophets b4 prophet Muhammad (SAW) were only meant to be followed for particular time period and for a reason and it was never mentioned in the Quran to kill any apostate but some of the hadiths of the prophet mohammad (SAW)it was mentioned but if you read my prev post carefully you will see where i explained it in details.. *Now can you prove to us using any islmic scriptures in it context and show us where killing of apostate is encourage?
I will make this short. I have pilling work but Nairaland keeps pulling me. Lol. Pew research isn't "fake media analysis". I think you should look Pew research up. Secondly, I never stated that those countries having killing of apostates as laws. That data are a percentage of people in those countries who want killing of apostates as a law. Definitely those countries can't have killing of apostates as a law. The international community will frown at it. But they have individual Muslims who want it to be law. You will agree with me that having that many people who will want to kill Aminusanti if he ever dares to leave Islam is actually scary to say the least. They don't do it, because their hands are tied. Well, we don't refer to Saudi Arabia as true representatives of Islam because that was where Islam started. We refer to it because it is regarded as your most holy land. It has the Kabba, the most holy temple and mecca the most holy city (where unbelievers can't even step into). You all are commanded to go there every year for the Hajj. So the people leaving in that Holy city has to practice real Islam ya? Muslims even pray facing the direction of Mecca, is it not? ERM...As a Christian, God lives in me. The only reason I will want to go to Jerusalem is for sight seeing and touring. Not because I feel God is closer to me whenever I go there. And it seems like you really know how to get me. You bring up Dr Ally Shabir! I am not ashamed to see I love that man. And if every Muslim was like Dr Shabir, then I will definitely think different about your religion. He is one of those internet Muslims I talked about, wanting to get the public on Islam's side by presenting it in a good light. And I really wish more Muslims where like like him and like you sir, but guess what? That's not the case. And why? Let's not go into that. And Trust me, Saudi kills for just leaving Islam. Forget the spreading of rumour part and lies and please be honest with yourself. Everyday I watch videos of people who fled for their lives. They didn't run because they spread rumours and lies, they ran because they left their religion. And please I will love you to open that thread. I will be patiently waiting. Its a good thing we will be discussing about the Bible for the first time and not the Koran. I will really love to show you the power of the Gospel sir. Finally, if you realize that the laws of Moses were applicable to only the Jews at that time, then why do you all keep dragging it in our faces
kimakimava: Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh to the believers....
"WHO ALLAH GUIDES CANNOT BE MISGUIDED AND WHO ALLAH MISGUIDES NONE CAN GUIDE" KHALAS.....
TEXT FROM BOOK OF BARNABAS:
"Then said the priest: How shall the Messiah be called, and what sign shall reveal his coming? Jesus answered: The name of the Messiah is admirable, for God himself gave him the name when he had created his soul, and placed it in a celestial splendor. God said: "Wait Mohammed; for thy sake I will create a paradise, the world, and a great multitude of creatures, whereof I make thee a present, insomuch that whoso bless thee be blessed, and whoso shall curse thee shall be accursed when I shall send thee as my messenger of salvation and thy word shall be true, in so much that heaven and earth shall fail, but thy faith shall never fail. Mohammed is his blessed name.” Then the crowd lifted up their voices, saying: ”O God, send us thy messenger: O Mohammed come quickly for the salvation of the world”
"Then Jesus rejoiced, and said: So far as I see, O woman, thou art faithful : know therefore that in the faith of the Messiah shall be saved every one that is elect of God; therefore it is necessary that thou know the coming of the Messiah.
Said the woman : O Lord 1 , perchance thou art the Messiah.
Jesus answered : I am indeed sent to the house of Israel as a prophet of salvation ; but after me shall come the Messiah 2 , sent of God to all the world; for whom God hath made the world. And then through all the world will God be worshipped, and mercy received..."
"Said Jesus: When God shall judge on the Day of Judgement then our words shall cut like a sword him that believeth that I am more than man"
"Jesus said again 1 : I confess before heaven, and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth, that I am a stranger to all that men have said of me, to wit, that I am more than man. For I am a man, born of a woman, subject to the judgement of God"
"Therefore I pray thee tell us the truth, art thou the Messiah of God whom we expect ?
Jesus answered : It is true that God hath so promised, but indeed I am not he, for he is made before me, and shall come after me
The priest answered : By thy words and signs at any rate we believe thee to be a prophet and an holy one of God, wherefore I pray thee in the name of all Judea and Israel that thou for love of God shouldn't tell us in what wise the Messiah will come.
Jesus answered : As God liveth, in whose presence my soul standeth, I am not the Messiah whom all the tribes of the earth expect, even as God promised to our father Abraham, saying : " In thy seed will I bless all the tribes of the earth." But when God shall take me away from the world, Satan will raise again this accursed sedition, by making the impious believe that I am God and son of God, whence my words and my doctrine shall be contaminated, insomuch that scarcely shall there remain thirty faithful ones : whereupon God will have mercy upon the world, and will send his messenger for whom he hath made all things ; 102 b who shall come from with power, and shall destroy the idols with the idolaters; who shall take away the dominion from Satan which he hath over men. He shall bring with him the message of salvation for them that shall believe in him. and blessed is he who shall believe his words."
Gospel of bananas is a fake. How many times will they tell you
Sweetnecta: @lepasharon^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what makes a 'prophet' a false prophet?
what fruit shall he be known by?
please give example of each so that we can know the false prophet and what fruit he brings and known by.
thanks.
if you wish, you can give us example of not 'false prophet and his fruit which he will be known by'.
i do know that jesus is alleged to have spoken those sentences while alive.
did he infer that he meant anyone outside the border of the 12 nations of israel? did he say there will not be any prophet sent to any people even to the whole world for the first time, since jesus was sent to the children of israel, only?
in the above, please use your bible to answer any and all question[s]. jesus knows himself best among mankind.
but God Almighty knows jesus better and if He tell a past or later prophet about jesus, then we have to accept what is provided by that prophet if we believe in God.
A prophet does three things basically. 1. Deliver God's message to the people. Muhammad fails this test as he manages to contradict everything in the Bible. Note that Muhammad never said the Bible was corrupt. In fact he confirms the authenticity of the Bible by saying you all should go to the people of the book. It is today's Muslims, seeing how much the Koran contradicts that same Bible that run around claiming the Bible to be corrupted. This simply means that Muhammad knew very little about the Bible himself, I mean hr actually thought Mary was part of the trinity. 2. A prophet makes prophesy. I bring it to you that Muhammad is the only prophet in the History of prophets without a single prophesy. I challenge you to mention one prophesy from Muhammad that is in full effect today? How can a prophet of God not have a single prophesy? 3. A prophet performs Miracles. All the prophets of the Bible had at least one miracle. The only one I keep hearing is that Muhammad rode to Jerusalem in a flying donkey. OK. But truth is, the only witness to this miracle was Muhammad himself! Jesus had witnesses. Moses had witnesses. So did Elijah and all the prophets. So I wonder what makes this man a prophet??
maclatunji: I wonder how and why there was a battle between those Christians who believed in One God and those that believed in the concept of Trinity ever before Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was born. This means that the concept of trinity is a big anomaly because coming down from Abraham, Moses and even Jesus to Muhammad (PBUT) they all preached Oneness of God. In all honesty those who believe in the concept of the Trinity cannot deny that their doctrine is largely a political tool and cannot be Justified by the traditions of the Prophets starting from Adam. So if you truly claim to believe in God, you cannot believe in the trinity.
For example, here are the opinions of two of the earlier Christian Clerics Paul of Samasata and Lucian, two former Bishops of Antioch :
"Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He differed only in degree from prophets who came before him and that God could not have become man substantially. Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian. As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 A.D."
THE GOSPEL OF BARNABAS EDITED AND TRANSLATED FROM THE ITALIAN MS. IN THE IMPERIAL LIBRARY AT VIENNA BY LONSDALE AND LAURA RAGG WITH A FACSIMILE OXFORD AT THE CLARENDON PRESS 1907
Trinity was not a new testament concept. You can find Trinity a lot in the old testament. But you are too blind to see it. And people all always have their opinions about a faith. It doesn't mean they are right!
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:
"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.
You all need to stop listening to that mad man Zakir naik! Jesus! Do you all swallow every nonsense he throws at you? That guy isn't even normal upstairs. How can you take a Hebrew word and give it an Arabic meaning? Use the same logic, Allahu Akbar in Hebrew means Allah is a mouse! Jesus! You people should learn to read for yourself and stop listening to that mad man.
I wont get it until you explain to us this your double standard nonsense.. I swear you are as confused as your trinity concept...
Do you have sense at all?
*"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." ~ Matt 5:17-19
* do the crusaders and other christian group kill apostate?
* is the God of moses the same as God of christians?
* why would a loving jesus/ yahweh issued those laws as constitution to the nation of israel even if theyr temporary??
* why cant the laws in the hadith be old and b no more applicable in the case of islam?
My friend. Good day to you. I hope the fasting is going well? Please pray for Allah's blessings for us all. I have to say, I admire you. I sincerely do. You really see Islam from the lenses of a good man. I know its hard and annoying for people (who you believe know little about your religion) to come and bash it for the wrong reasons. But also you should try taking of your Muslim tinted glasses for a while. Below is a screen grab of statistics conducted by Pew research on the percentage of Muslims who believe in Killing of apostates. So your argument of "few" Muslims believing in it is wrong. Now please study the data below and notice that the countries with the highest percentage are those countries who practice Islam more keenly. Look at high percentage for Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Afghanistan. But low percentage for the likes of Turkey. I heard that Turkey is known as the most westernized Islamic country in the world where women even wear bikinis (dunno how true this is to be honest). So you can agree with me that those with low percentage are practicing what I will call the watered down kinda Islam. Not the TRUE ISLAM. Now notice that Saudi Arabia the home of Islam isn't even taken into account. Killing of Apostasy is keenly practiced there. Go on twitter and follow Ex Muslim TV and see many people who have fled Saudi for their lives because they have decided to dump their faith. Honestly though, can I live in Saudi and practice another faith? Is that even possible?? Sir, I really really want Islam to be what you preach, but unfortunately many of your scholars do not agree with you. That is why they are scholars and you are here arguing on Nairaland. The only scholars who will say otherwise are the ones on the internet trying to get the public on the side of Islam. Then you mentioned that the only time it was mentioned to Muhammad was only if people convert to Islam and then try to leave again, right? Now Islam was new in the time of Muhammad. Very few people where born Muslims. Or the ones who were born into the faith where probably even still young. Most Muslims were converts. From Judaism, Christianity and Pagan practices. So essentially, if anyone at all was to leave Islam, he must have been formally a Jew, a Christian, or a Pagan. You get my point? In the end, it is kill anyone who leaves Islam because few were born into it at that time and every Muslim then was a convert from other religions. Get the point? Finally you quoted the Bible and then blamed us for not understanding when the meaning of what you quoted was in that scripture and still you didn't pick it up. Let me break it down for you. I don't want to go into root Greek words, so I will just explain it plainly for you to see. Matthew 5: 17-18 says :Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. I want you to notice the bolded. I will ask you one question. Was Jesus a failure? Because like my other thread about Allah aiding Christianity, you Muslims claim you respect and love Jesus but your teachings keep pointing to Him as a failure. So the question is, is the law of moses still binding today? Let us take verse 17. Jesus says he didn't come to Destroy the law but to Fulfill it. I would have explained the Greek root word of "destroy" but let's not go that deep. Now notice, Jesus said He has come to Fulfill the Law! I repeat, Fulfill the law! Now verse 18. Jesus says the law shall not pass until it is fulfilled. But Jesus came to Fulfill it. So if Jesus has fulfilled the law, then... I will leave u to complete that. But if you say Jesus didn't fulfill the law and that the law is still binding, then you are calling Jesus a failure because He said He was on earth to fulfill it. So you people need to stop calling Jesus a prophet of Islam because all your teachings point to Jesus as a failure. But if you say Jesus is not a failure, then He actually fulfilled the Law which means, it is no longer binding. As-salamu alaykum Brother.
PS: If the God of moses is the same God Muhammad and Muslims claim to worship, are you not to follow the laws of the Torah, which supports killing of apostates? doesn't that just mean it is allowed in Islam?
Religion / Re: Men And Women Are Equal Fellow Nigerians Its Time To Accept This Fact by ilynem(m): 1:01pm On Jun 09, 2017 
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.. how have u been? longest time!