₦airaland Forum

PastorAIO: Thank you for the name. I googled it and actually it's John Foxe. Now, how is asking for someone's credentials as an history betraying my (in)sincerity. I believe you are trying to say I'm insincere rather than sincere.

Actually I am sincere in the question, and of course it's an obvious question to ask. Would you take serious medical advise from someone who wasn't a medical doctor?

As it happens, John Foxe was an historian. Let's take a closer look. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foxe













You can also get a pdf of the book here: http://ihtys.narod.ru/foxes_book_of_martyrs.pdf


Now, all in all, nothing that I've read so far tells me when the church that Jesus founded became corrupted. As far as I can tell Foxe is a man immersed in the Wars of Religion that were tearing Europe apart at the time and his account of things cannot really be seen as anything other than propaganda. That is not to say that nasty things weren't done to protestants by Catholics and Church of England-ers, but that the facts would have been presented in a biased way, and there would obviously be no mention made of the atrocities of the Protestants.


Bros, When did the Church of Christ become corrupt? What happened and when did it start to happen?

adsonstone: Why should I?
Jesus taught in parables and clarifies his messages using another parable or other means....just like he did when He made that statement and some may still choose to misunderstand though.

The simple message was that repentant sinners are more likely to make heaven than rebellious believers...which he explained.

....and for the audio message, I can mail it to you.

IbrahimMav: Blood letting religion? Islam is misrepresented by the various Christian and jewish sponsored sect all over world. the real Islam is all about peace and harmony. one day you will realised this. May the light of Allah Shine upon u.

IbrahimMav: I wish, alas am stuck in Nigeria

busky101: DURING THE DAYS OF MOSES, GOD KILLED ALL THE INNOCENT FIRSTBORNS OF THE EGYPTIANS JUST TO MAKE WAY FOR THE SAME ISRAELITE, SO IT BASICALLY MEANS THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN KILLING PEOPLE LIKE HAMAS EVEN BEFORE CHRIST CAME. ALTHOUGH AM PRAYING FOR THE CEASEFIRE TO COMMENCE BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS. AT-LEAST HAMAS MUST HAVE LEARN THEIR LESSONS BY NOW..#ISRAEL SHALL REMAIN BLESSED. HE THAT CURSE ISRAEL SHALL REMAIN CURSED...EOD

IbrahimMav: Islam is the only true path. I pity you.

PastorAIO: I think I get your point. However these are my points:

Every thing is subject to change. Everything in this world.

So the question we should be asking is not whether it changed, but rather whether it has been Corrupted. Ie. whether there has been a change for the worse.

As a genuine christian who cares about the gospel if we find that it has been corrupted in anyway I imagine that the next question should be 'When and How did the corruption take place?'.

How else can you start trying to fix the problem? If you go to the doctor and you are sick, before trying to give you any medicine or cures surely the doctor will first ask where you fell ill, what were the circumstances, in other words he will first make a diagnosis. If you then tell him that you remember eating something dubious last night at 8pm then he can now administer a cure for Food poisoning taking into account all the information you gave him.

So you see, if you can tell us a date wherein corruption entered the church that would show that you actually care rather than just slinging mud.


I haven't heard of that book you mentioned and to be honest, i don't mean this to be rude, I'm unlikely to go out and buy a book just because of this matter. If you can show us some links or quotes from the book then that would be helpful. Also who was the author of the book, are they qualified historians, did they undergo a rigorous study of the Catholic church's history? These are all pertinent questions.

Decibel: Professor of theology and sociology, remember this is 21st Century not 32 BC

Decibel: Habatically habatical!! .They should allow the perverts to marry instead of starving them for sex under the auspice of priesthood

heykims: No mind those people jare, denying themselves natural nd legitimate wonderful experience, it's a pity the instinct will always be there.
Catholic should just review their doctrines coz this very aspect is pure bullshit...

Kay17: The issue stems from the assumptions you drag from Christianity into the scientific theory. In Christianity, God is classified as a necessary being while other entities are contingent. Therefore creation must come from only God. But the Big Ban.g theory doesn't have such assumptions and neither makes assertions about events prior to the Ban.g other than mention a singularity. If you are expecting the Big Ban.g to identify a necessary being or element, you wouldn't get it.

TheBigUrban2:


This is what we call "fake miracles"


Lazarus was not raised from the dead while being on life support.


Had they been healed with no medication involved, you would have had a point

mazaje1: Miracles that happens when most of the people there were already on medication, right?. . .Well done. . .

mazaje1: And which atheist code tells you that atheist believe or claim that randomness is responsible for the universe?. . .Show me that atheist creed. . .

Kay17: But nowhere in the theory is there actually anything like that said. This is just another imagined misconception of yours.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Pls if you find any of such, let me know.

JMAN05: I know this will arise. Even if he answers, Italo will keep firing until he fades up, then he will use it against him. If you can read the handwriting...

mazaje1: Did I read the same article as you?. . .the piece you posted actually debunks all the claims you have been making. . . .From what you posted. . .

"Doctor Patrick Theillier, who retired from leadership of the bureau last year, stated this in an interview with France Catholique.

The cure, he explained, "might not be as spectacular as to be considered a miracle."

I gave you an example from the economist article which says that most of the people there were already taken medication so its hard to claim that there cures were miraculous. . .No clear cut case of any miracle there. . .

Kay17: The problem with most of you, is you don't listen. The Big Ban.g thoery most atheists endorse does not postulate that the Universe arose from nothing.

Kay17: Aren't the rules for causality (cause and effect) mechanical?

PastorAIO: I think that you've conflated Italo with other people who jumped on the thread. We are guilty of muddying the waters. I think that Tobechi was the main culprit. But that shouldn't stop you from focusing on your discussion with Italo.
After your first response in which you said the Catholic church was founded by Jesus the following is Italo's reply. this is when he asked for historical dates. There is nothing selective there.




You also said this:


To return to my Robbery analogy, if a detective knows for sure that a house has been burgled does that make it irrelevant to try to ascertain the time of the break in? Will that be useless to his inquiry?

Asking for the time something happened has no bearing on whether it happened ... unless of course it didn't happen at all.

italo: How many Churches did Jesus found...one or many?

Is it the Church Jesus founded that turned into the Catholic Church...

Or the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic Church?

italo: 1. When you say the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed, you agree it was founded by Jesus Christ?

You did not answer this question. Please do so in the spirit of sincerity.

2. You claim the Church was good until the Papacy ruined it. When did this happen? Give us a date or a timeframe at least...and tell us where you got the information from.

You said you got this from several places online. Pls show us these sources and when they say the Papacy went bad.

3. Are you serious and sincere when you say "anyone" against the papacy was burned? If you are, please give us the date the papacy went bad and I will provide evidence that what you said is false.

Please show us evidence that everyone against the papacy was burned if you are sincere.

4. You said idolatry came in with veneration of saints. Give us the date when this came in.

Veneration of Saints was before the Church compiled the Bible. So if veneration of Saints came from an evil or erroneous Church, the Bible also did. How then can the Bible be trusted?

5. where did you learn that Mary and statues take God's place...and who told you that prayers must pass through Mary to be legitimate and that she became more important than Christ to the Catholic Church? Pls tell us where the Catholic Church teaches that?

You still can't answer these.

6. You said "The bible no longer became the final authority." Please tell us the date the bible came about, who brought about it, and when was the Bible ever the final authority?

Please answer this if you are sincere.

PastorOluT: u guys should keep being selective whiile u seek evidence which is everywhere, providing evidence in history u guys would definitely still see something to say in defense. I said lets look at the present while u all neglected that, u claimed u want the past to reflect the present, then I said ow about the bible to judge? u still neglected that, i think dis thread is fast loosing its purpose even before starting.

NB Italo, if u want me to continue, then lets look at the scriptures (for history u all seek) that we both believe in to judge some of the practices listed.

PastorOluT: U see urself? after neglecting what i said about d first questio about the name catholic, n d further suggestions i gave.

Keep being religious defending with all ur might

adsonstone: My 'criticism' of the Pope's statement is not because it is untrue, of course, it was true...however, it was capable of misleading Atheists to believing that they'll definitely be saved/make heaven if they do good works.

...and yes, that is the Church's teaching on atheism and other religions.
Usually, the Church teachings are kept in the Church records within the Church (I dunno if it's available online though), but I have an audio message where this is taught extensively...if you care to have it, I can send it to you.

mazaje1: Its a ruse cos the doctors are running away from Lourdes. . .

Now, Dr. Patrick Theiller, the secretary of the International Medical Committee of Lourdes, has announced that the panel will no longer be in the “miracle” business. “It’s a sort of rebellion, if you will, against laws that don’t concern us—and shouldn’t,” Theiller told the Associated Press’ Jamey Keaten (for an article published December 3, 2008). He added, “The medical corps must be independent of the ecclesiastic power.” The bishop of the local diocese did acknowledge: “It seems ‘miracle’ may not be the right word to use anymore. It’s no longer a black-and-white question.”

Now, appropriately, the church will be left to decide on so-called miracles; the panel will only indicate whether cases are “remarkable.” And remarkable healings can happen to anyone, independent of religious shrines and supposedly magical water. The $400 million that enrich Lourdes annually could be better spent on medical science than on superstitious beliefs from an earlier time.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/lourdes_medical_bureau_rebels/

Kay17: Besides, if you do, the belief in a being that created the entire Universe out of nothing is irrational. Also the belief in miracles, miracles being the belief in an illogical unexplainable phenomena

Kay17: Reason.

JMAN05: You think the circle will stop? lol. this discussion is purely circular.

Italo wil keep shooting the arrow until Pastorolut gives up, then he will use it against him. nothing sincere is intended. I mean if u can read the 'handwriting....'