₦airaland Forum

woky: Italo i see u

Yea bro, I bn dey type that Epistle of Italo to my brothers and sisters.

I greet o.

I greet everyone. Lovely day ahead.

POPE II: However that's not a good situation Jesus called a spade a spade , and he never sacrificed his belief for anything talk less about to please the people surrounding him .

I was trying to say Jesus used different approaches on different occasions. The were times he was silent. There were times he spoke little and gently. A few times he launched a verbal attack. On at least one occasion he even got physical (at the temple).

I think discretion is important. We must always try to keep the right balance. Too much of anything is bad.

POPE II: As for what you said at the beginning ,you are 100% right , we find ourselves in this situation because we already feel like we are powerful and self sufficient , we neglect the growth of our religion, we sacrifice ourselves and belief to please heretics , we are always at the receiving end yet we still maintain the political correct. We refuse positions where decisions are taken this is why people feel they can crush us and talk anyhow about our faith. Is it because we are not violent? We should all agree on something :

I agree. In the Eorope and Americe where the population of Catholics has dwindled seriously, lay Catholics have now realized the use of speaking out and making themselves and their faith seen and heard in public.

In Nigeria, we still allow people to shout us down and we allow officials to use unjust methods to relegate our faith to the background. We think our beliefs should only be allowed a fair chance to flourish in our closet or in our Churches, not in public. We say we are 1.2billion and Jesus will never leave his Church.

We forget that minds are constantly being formed by what they see and hear continually.

Anyway, I'm not advocating that Catholics should be overtly aggressive. I'm saying we should balance up...and for now, we are not balancing up.

We are way too quiet. And I'm talking about individual lay Catholics in general...

And I wonder why he's pained that we call him "heretic" and his place of worship "shop." He was even whining because Catholics refer to him and other Protestants as "separated brethren" instead of "brethren."

Of course drunks dont like other people to say "you're drunk" and lunatics always insist they're normal.

1. We dont do it in a space cordoned for Protestantism.

2. Why is he upset that "idolatrous Roman Catholics" are calling him "heretic?" Should he be happy if truly idolaters see him as out of their faith?

3. Why does he desperately want to be seen as "brethren" of idolaters?

It is this two-mouthed and dishonest disposition have became synonymous with him.

Perhaps the guy is just dying of loneliness and boredom.

For quite some time, Catholics have been ignoring him on nairaland because of his lies and unwillingness to debate honestly. That's why he goes around looking the slightest opportunity to seek our attention.

This is what he likes. Exchanging words with Catholics. That's how he makes himself relevant.

On a good day, we would rather be silent than talk to that living thing.

striktlymi: Hey bro great job you have been doing for us (Catholics) in this section and I quite appreciate your effort but c'mon Italo, your complaint is a bit misdirected.

Thanks. We're all doing our bit.

striktlymi: I went to the thread meant for us, Catholics, and realized that Enigma posted on that thread after a number of our brethren (I believe Syncan and Uben) said some not too charitable things about him.

In all fairness, I believe when stuff is said about any individual (especially when those things are negative) the individual has every right to defend him or herself. As such, Enigma was right to put up a defence in that thread.

I'm not sure I totally agree. In the first place, the thread has been made a private space for Catholics to discuss issues surrounding their faith, including enemies of the faith.

It is like being in a "Catholic Church," so to speak.
Protestants demonize us in their "churches," no problem. They demonize us in public space, no problem. But if Protestants were to come into a Catholic Church (a private area within public space, as I believe that thread is), and start doing the same under the guise that they overheard Catholics making comments about Protestantism, they would have gone too far, wouldn't they? It wouldn't be out of place to have the Police act upon it, would it?

striktlymi: I believe you should have first tried to caution Uben and Sync about the need to make the discussion Catholic and not about any individual, especially when they are not Catholics.

While, your advice is good, going forward, I still think that is part of what the thread is meant for.

Why have a space of our own if we cannot discuss how to go about handling our enemies in a charitable manner. Indeed, you would have seen that Syncan adviced Uben to ignore him (better than resorting to insults). Isnt that part of what the thread is meant for...advising one-another on issues.

Pls correct me where I'm wrong.

tobechi20: Italo , you are not in the best position to say who is catholic and who is not.

His refusal to agree with a certain fraction of catholic teaching doesnt make him less a catholic

I agree with you to an extent.

But try posting against Islam on the Islam section and tell them you are a Muslim (believer in one God). Tell them you only refuse some teachings of Islam.

I am waiting to hear your experience.

Even HumbledbyGrace sees how dubious her respected brother can be.

Claiming to be Catholic...how?

Why cant he identify himself by wherever he goes on Sundays?

Even Rev. King members still dey identify till today.

Personally, I think individual Catholics are generally too quiet in public. We hardly speak out about anything in public. And it manifests in diverse ways.

Many Catholics are shy to even make the sign of the cross in public.

They cant pray in public.

Many cant defend their faith in public.

They cant even talk about it.

I personally am confrontational on issues like this but I respect our brothers and sisters who arent like that by nature.

Sometimes, you are confrontational only to later find that silence would have been the wisest option. Other times, you are convinced that you did the wise thing by speaking out.

That's why I always say that there's time for everything.

Just look at Jesus.

At times he was silent. At times he spoke little. A few times he went on a tirade...

vickyO: They claim they combined the Bible and are the first church yet they get carried away by traditions of men and fail to practice the doctrines written in the Bible. Jesus told us to pray to God in His (Jesus) name. that is the definition of prayer. He didn't say pray to Mary.....
Catholics, where did y'all get your doctrine of praying to Mary from The pope? the heathen? the Bible? Rome?
Educate us.

Cant you see the rubbish your brother is saying up there?

That David could not speak about the future.

Why not address that glaring rubbish?

idnoble135: The former.

idnoble135: What's your point?

One can be a Christian without the Bible.

HumbledbYGrace: I know, been there, done that already. I am anti catholic, you know that but now I have to be civil about this issue. Its their thread, their rules. Grant them the serenity and peace in their own thread, if you feel the need to expose them create a thread for that, nairaland has enough space for everyone. And the rule your breaking is the first rule ontop of your post, rule #1.

*Nb you know I respect you a lot but its my skipo job I choose, not to take sides.

Have a good night.

Thanks for being fair. I recognize it must be difficult.

There are 6 anti-Catholic threads on the front-page of the Religion section.

That's 9%

Isnt that enough?

Where on nairaland can we discuss our faith in peace and tranquility?

There is a thread for Muslims to discuss in peace... if catholics go there, they'll call us Christians and we're not welcome to air our views.

One for Christians...if Catholics go there, they'll call us demonic pagans.

One for non-Christians...if Catholics go there, they'll call us Christians.

We know that many protestants have sat in judgement and condemned us to hell.

Again I plead...let us go to "hell" in peace and serenity.

Logicboy03: See what christian bias has done? When christians know that they can get away with murder, see what they do?


This guy mocks the catholic church and bastardizes the meaning of "catholic" then runs here to get insurance that his comments should not be hidden. When he has gotten such favours in the past, why not now?


And of course, when you have 3 non-catholic christians as mods..............................................................

By "consult with other mods," he actually means Obadiah - the one who sees insults to Catholics as mere "opinions."

Acidosis: Bros, The book of Psalm was written by a King that lived and then died.. even before the name of Mary was mentioned in the New Testament... So how is it possible for King David to write about a non-yet born Mary, let alone a Queen Mary sitting with a God who shares His throne with no one?
Lolz

See what a christian is saying just because he wants to discredit Catholics.

So David didnt make prophecies that were fulfilled hundreds of yours later?

Who then is David talking about?

idnoble135: No, they extracted truth from the old testament. The old testament is not useless in it self now. There are events in the old testament that occurred but had spiritual truths in them.
Here we read of Apollos preaching the gospel from the old testament
for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is
the Christ.
Even Paul in his epistles brought forth kingdom truths and principles from the old testament.

There were Christians before the Bible period!

Stop dribbling.

Truth goes straight foward; lies go roundabout.

idnoble135: It is the scriptures that defined or better still moulded their character.
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalm 119:11

Were the Pentecost converts Christians before reading the Bible or not?

Simple question!

HumbledbYGrace: lol, don't flatter me o.

Checked your threads, I will do the deed later today don't worry.

Did you really not see my complaint or did you deliberately ignore it?

Ajibam:

Did you really not see my complaint or did you deliberately ignore it?

Y'all need to go and see JMAN05 unable to answer one single question in the thread he opened without my name.

@ adsonstone,

You'll agree with me that its about time you answered my question:

Can you ever teach or interpret scripture wrongly...

...or are you always right when you teach and interpret scripture?

adsonstone: Have you ever for once tried to find out why these books were declared 'uninspired' as you have said?

When you know the reason, you'll be 'more open' in our discussion.

What matters to me for now in this discussion is that it was the Church that declared them inspired. Tradition!

adsonstone: I deliberately ignored Chukwudi's responses because they were very much flawed and also has elements of 'lies' in it.

Anyway, I'll attend to it since that also what your response would also be (and even a better one)....as you have indicated.

It's not enough to say "lies," "flawed." Prove it!

Then who are the people being referred to with the words in bold?

adsonstone: Don't be ignorant of simple things.

"us" and "our" could mean "apostles" "church" "bishops"... I dont know why you choose apostles and say it isnt church.

Now do you know that unknown christians were referred to as apostles in the Bible?

Is Paul then saying we should follow traditions of unknown Christians?

adsonstone: ....and you can neither say He asked us to follow 'catholic tradition'.

I can say so because I dont believe in scripture alone. I believe in the interpretation tradition gives the bible. Its you who believes in scripture alone meaning scripture must state it. You have nothing to refute my argument. Scripture doesn't mention that we should not follow Catholic tradition.

adsonstone: You say its Old Testament, Chukwudi says the books were not listed.
How did you arrive at your conclusion and what made Chukwudi conclude his?

Sort yourselves out.

I dont see how Chukwudi's claim is contrary to mine. I think you need to sort yourself out.

He probably said that incase you wanted to argue that it included Mark and Luke.

The koko is that the it was Catholic Church that declared the 2 books inspired.

adsonstone: As I said I my first reply in this post, you don't know why the books were rendered 'invalid' yet, you say it was rendered invalid.

Find out how the NT canon/books were selected and compiled and also why some 'epistles' are left out.

Find out wetin? It was the Catholic Church that rendered Barnabas' book invalid...no matter the reason or method thet used. Tradition!

adsonstone: So, can we agree that tradition is guided/having its principles by/in scripture?

The same way Jesus was guided by Mary and her learnt from her...but he created her...yes. so when we relate to her, we do so based on how Jesus her creator wants us to relate with her.

Church tradition created the Bible. We must then look at the Bible through the eyes of Tradition.

adsonstone: is there anywhere/reference this claim can be affirmed?

which particular claim?

adsonstone: regarding the bold, I have a question.

Are the Orthodox, Methodist, Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran etc also part of the church of Christ?

In a strict sense, no.

Were those who refused to follow the dictates of the Jerusalem council in acts 15, but still followed christ, yet preaching and demanding circumcision as contained in the sacred books, as pre-requisite for God's people....a part of Christ's Church?

adsonstone: The question of going to hell or not, I don't know.

What I know and perfectly sure of is that salvation is only from one source/by one name and that is affirmed by Acts 4:12.

And that name has given us the Church and sacraments as the fullness of the means of salvation.

JMAN05: dey there they deceive yourself. He is afraid of responding, I was correct. until he is ready to prove it wrong.

We are correct too...until you have proved us wrong.

JMAN05: I will copy those things I ve said as true of your religion until proven wrong. its your call.

When you were ignoring my own questions there you didnt remember.

What difference does your opinion make?

If you want my answers, give me answers too.

Ukuts gp: what about the bowing down to images, will that also save me?

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truthislight: Good good.

If you had understood the significance of the word 'christian', you will not imagined that the word 'catholic' is better than it, such that you force it for Jesus christ and his apostles.

The word "Catholic" and "Christian" are not competing for supremacy.

Please say something worth cracking the head over.

Mtchew!

adsonstone: The books you listed are not part of the NT because they were 'somewhat' debated upon thus, not agreed upon and included in the NT.

But you were trying to downplay the role the Church played in Canonizing the NT...as if to say, because they were written by Apostles and inspired men, the Canon was already settled.

I have shown you that you dont even know the author of Hebrews yet the Church declared it "inspired." While some 'apostolic' books were declared "not inspired" by the Church. It is clear that the Church decided the Canon.

adsonstone: Why does the RCC have fewer books in the bible than the orthodox....having some deuterocanonicals and rejecting others?

Chukwudi has answered this for me. He spoke my mind even better than I'd put it.

adsonstone: we have agreed that the NT is written by the apostles and other inspired men and it is meant for the church.

Well, I have shown you that it was the Church that agreed this, that's why its in the NT. It's not you and I that agreed it between ourselves. Each of us agrees with the Church.

adsonstone: I have also said in my above post that other 'debated' books are not included most likely because their authenticity cannot be ascertained.

"Most likely." You dont really know but the Church knows because it is part of Tradition but not written in the pages of the Bible. Weren't there authentic books that weren't included

adsonstone: 2 Thess 2:15

"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Where is "apostles" in that verse?

adsonstone: You say you obey these traditions yet, you have not named any that originates from the Apostles that have no root in the bible.

The principle for every tradition (doctrine) can be found in the Bible and they have some sort of "root" or "hint" there. After all, the NT writing only came about from tradition. I gave the example of the Eucharist. Tradition always had it to mean Jesus physically present and that is seen in scripture. Yet, many cant or refuse to see it in scripture.

adsonstone: I know of no scripture that rejects this neither do I know any that supports it.

So you can not say the Holy Spirit did not say we should follow Catholic Tradition.

adsonstone: The one I gave earlier mentions "apostles' tradition"

Please show me where it mentions "apostle's tradition." All the versions I have dont say that.

adsonstone: 2 Timothy 3:16 says they're inspired, it doesnt leave out the books of Mark and Luke.

That was talking about the old testament. Mark and Luke were declared inspired by the Catholic Church.

adsonstone: I mean all those reffered to in the Bible as apostles!
Period!

Barnabas was also called Apostle yet you dont read his book...because the Catholic Church makes it invalid.

adsonstone: so, which extra-biblical tradition (traditition not included in scripture) do you claim you practice?

You have declared many times that not all 'relevant' truths are in the bible and some are in tradition. (relevant there is included by me)

No tradirion (doctrine) is totally extrabiblical if "extrabiblical" means not having any hint or even the principle of the doctrine.

JMAN05: And you are questioning JW doctrine by asking that question. as such, it is denied.

My dear friend,

I seriously dont see how you being a reasonable adult as I want to believe you are, would expect another adult to keep answering all your question while you answer none of his.

Please make life easier for us by answering my question.

Amen & amen.

vickyO: now we know. and we know you guys recite it as many times as you can. and Jesus condemned such mode of prayer.

So it is a sin to repeat a prayer?

Is it against Catholic doctrine to report trespassers to the authorities?

Why do we allow people derail our threads when we can take them to the moderators (even though the mods too might have anti-Catholic bias)

If this organism came into Catechism class or a venue for Catholic meeting spewing his trash, would we not hand him over to security/Police?