₦airaland Forum

^^^...will never make them Jesus' Church.

They'll always be King Henry's visa to open adultery.

First, the Anglicans broke off from the Catholic Church in their support of open adultery...

...then they so desperately want to validate themselved by being associated with the Catholic Church.

Have you told all your Atheist brothers to stop preaching to me that God doesnt exist and religion is useless?

Have you told them that I believe in God and all their cheap insults only make them look like restless toddlers?

If their claim is true, there wouldnt be a need for them to evangelize and ridicule

[quote author=frank3.16]My friend stop twisting my statements to fit what u think. I am not a mad man who is just ranting and talking nonsense.

U and I know that if all what I said could also be likened to the religous beliefs, then there would have been No need for evangelism and condemnation and hell threats.

But... If what u wrote above is exactly how u feel about ur belief, then we are cool. Why then should we argue?

Just help me tell ur religious brothers to stop trying to force me to belief what they do. Just let them know I don't believe in hell and threatnin me with it makes them look like foooolish adults. Thanks.[/quote]

Allow me to refer you to this link. It conveys my views. Please read patiently and I'll be willing to answer any objections or inadequancies it has.

Thanks.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

dalaman: I don't care what atheist believe, I just want to know your position on evolution and creationism. You seem to suggest that the bible agrees with both. If you don't wanna answer then its ok. Shalom

This guy continues his merry-go-round.

Poor you.

When an Anglican ignores the history of the Anglican "church" and focuses on the history of the Catholic Church...

...you know somebody's ashamed of something.

I will answer me if you answer this simple question.

Atheists believe and assert so many things without having scientific evidence for them.

Yes or no?

dalaman: @ Italo

What exactly is your position on evolution vs creationism? Did God create Adam fully formed as the first man as the bible says or did Adam evolve from hominids apes according to evolutionary science? What do you believe is the position of the bible on this issue?

If I get you right, you have no evidence that you evolved from fish.

You just believe it because men say so.

You are a man of great FAITH!

wiegraf: Let's see, initial reaction: more absurdness.

For one, here's a guess; you have no problems combing through large portions of the bible to figure out what sort of food would earn you a ticket to hell (, which you can verify exists only after you....die (lol)), yes? But for science, whose fruits you're using at this very moment to read this (as opposed to the trusty spiritual mail), always testable and verifiable, no faith required, you aren't going to put in the effort?

If you have problems comprehending google for textbooks for elementary schoolers, they might help you with the basics. I doubt that's the issue here though, you're simply not willing to listen. Mostly because science doesn't place you at the centre of the universe ('intelligence cannot be random' nonsense, then how did the first intelligence show up?), it doesn't pander to your emotions and desires, and likely/prominently, cowardice.

So you don't accept scientific evidence when it doesn't fit your agenda? Telling lies about lack of evidence doesn't mask that. I mean consider, other than obvious hipocritical usages of the scientific method you indulge in eg modern tech, you even cherry pick literal vs not from the bible as...... science dictates

You're not willing to listen, you're simply here to tell us slaves what is as you already have all the answers; god did it

Because your story book says so

(Oh, and it makes you special, etc)

You guys go out of your way for me. Ty

[quote author=frank3.16]I believe in things that make sense to me, I don't believe in things by faith despite its meaninglessness(permit my english).[/quote]So you just believe when it makes sense TO YOU...not necessarily when its true or proven. Belief is faith, my dear. You are a person of faith...though you are ashamed to admit it.

[quote author=frank3.16]And that is the problem I find in religion... U are made to believe in somting despite it not making sense. Just have faith and assume that is true even it it is not.[/quote]But it makes sense TO US. And thats exactly what you do too. You just have faith in your judgement and believe things that make sense to you whether true or not.

[quote author=frank3.16]I don't believe in things that does not make sense to me. If not there is use for brain. Even though if I have no evidence but at least it should be meaningful and I can use deducting reasoning to decide my opinion on it.[/quote]Catholicism is meaninful to Catholics. We use deductive reasoning to decide our opinion on it.[/quote]

Did the yeast cause fermentation that turned the juice to red wine or did the winemaker make the wine?

Can I have this both ways?

mazaje: How can the catholic church be for evolution when the bible is against it?. . .Did Adam evolve from hominid ape or was he created as the first human on earth by god?. . .You can't have it both ways. . .

Not much to add. I'm just glad to know that you went to a retreat. I pray God grants you many spiritual and material favours...both temporal and eternal.

St JoseMaria Escriva's book "The Way" was very intrumental in making me deepen my spiritual life because part of his outlook was that sanctity is a normal state. It's not so abstract. It is not for priests alone. The saints were not superheroes from another planet. You can be a saint right where you are. Just do everything with love for God and love for man. If you are a musical artiste, you can avoid the nudity and obscenity that others will not avoid...you can sing exclusively christian songs if the pop culture wont accept a decent artiste. If you are a business person, charge a fair price. Remind your customers if they forget their change with you. Do not restrict yourself to scheduled vocal prayer but let your daily activities be a continual prayer. E.g if you enter a bus and the conductor is being rude...suppress that urge to insult him because of God. That is prayer. When your gateman greets you, respond with love and a smile and even a gentle touch on the shoulder because he is God's son. When your friends gossip about someone, resist the urge to say the nasty things you know. If you cannot say nice things, remain silent. This even reminds me all too well that I am FAAÀAAAARRR from being a saint. How many times have I insulted people on nairaland when I should have avoided it with God's grace.

Sanctity is in the little things of every moment.

May the good Lord help us to cooperate with his grace and be SAINTS. Amen.

Did I say I had "not much to add?"

Lol

Intelligence and order emerged from randomness and nothing.

Cool story.

I thought you were sorry for lying that the Catholic Church was against evolution but you have instead come back with 100 more lies. I will not even glorify them by responding to them individually.

All I is that you believe many things without evidence and you are yet to show evidence of any of your claims.

We are all people of faith afterall.

mazaje: Nope, i do not believe in any thing without evidence . . .Your own church's position is that evolution is a fact, your former pope said it and tried to make it the position of your church. . .Your church does not believe in a literal reading of the genesis story. . .Your church does not believe that Adam was a literal man and Eve a literal woman. . .

From your post here you clearly do not believe in evolution but in a literal translation of the genesis story, you even referred to adam and eve as literal person's here on this thread which is actually against the position of your own church. . .You want to eat your cake and have it. . .You do not believe in evolution, you are even trying to mock it, after showing you that your church accepts it and not creationism, you are trying to say that if evolution happened then god is the one that controlled it. . .The only reason you are saying that is because your church accepts it. . .

The bible does NOT support evolution in any way, even Jesus himself referred to Adam as a literal man. . .No where does the bible support evolution, you just don't want to accept that your church is wrong, you are now in a fix, you have to accept evolution as a possibility and still accept creationism. . . .You can't do both, its either humans evolved or genesis is an allegory, or genesis is real and evolution is false. . .You can't have it both ways. . .You can not be talking about Adam and eve as literal persons and still be talking about evolution as a possibility. . .

Its either you go with what the bible says or what science says. . . .The bible says god created them from sand and dust as the first people to inhabit the earth. . Science said humans evolved from hominids apes as such there is nothing like the first human. . .You are in a fix and I an just laughing at you. . .

So the right thing to do is KILL the innocent human being, right.

Is it better than letting the mother endure the torture.

Abi?

[quote author=Natasha,,]I'm not in support of abortion but if its life threathening then am not against it and other exceptions like rape by a family member or the likes. like why should someone keep a baby that was concieved through rape by her dad?? that's just toture.[/quote]

You are an Atheist.

You believe many things you have no scientific evidence for.

Yes or No?

[quote author=frank3.16]Just stop confusing atheists with scientists.
Atheists are just people who think their is
 not enough proof for the existence of God. Some might be scientists, some farmers, some psychologists and some artists. The biblical, quranic teachings about God does not make sense to them.[/quote]

plaetton: @ Italo.

Now, tell me why layers of myths piled on top of each other, priesthoods, an enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy have been built over several thousand years all just to defend the very very simple idea of what is supposed to be a real and self-evident god of the universe.
Does that make any sense at all?

We dont necessary defend God. We just love and worship him.

Why are you having sleepless nights over something you claim doesnt exist. You talk about God more than most religious people. Why this edifice of arguments, aggression, killing for thousands of years over something that doesnt exist?

Does that make sense at all?

plaetton: Again I ask you, where is the priesthood, the enormous edifice of power, intrigue and secrecy that promotes the real and self-evident things like, say, gravity?
When was the last time a priest of gravity came to knock on your door to preach the good news?

There are edifices, intrigues and secrecy all over the world to promote governments, monarchies, sports, wealth Etc. And their promoters are their priesthood. Are you saying these things dont exist?

plaetton: I put it to you Italo, Reginus eta al, that the many many layers of myths, the bible, and other sacred texts of the monotheistic religions, the priesthoods, the enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy were purposefully founded, built, and exists for sole purpose of checkmating, discouraging, confronting and perpetually battling the very obvious, the very very tiny and very very simple and common aspect of human reasoning commonly referred to as Doubt.

You're saying that's the reason for magnificent palaces, stadiums, intrigues and secrecy in every aspect of government?

DOUBT?

What are you smoking?

plaetton: So, even though religion is about faith, it is arises from the lack of faith, not the presence of faith as we have been conditioned to believe.

Nobody gives his life for something that he doubts.

plaetton: Religious faith is a perpetual battle against doubt. The entire edifice of the Abrahamic religions, their myths, their doctrines, their threats: all are targeted at Doubt.

Atheism is a perpetual battle against faith in God. Your sleepless nights and epistles, your doctrines, your ridicules and aggression are all an attempt to suppress and deny your faith.

plaetton: Religious faith is an exercise in Doubt, against Doubt.
It is extreme doubt. An extreme form of atheism
Doubt that conjures up layers of myths and layers of doctrines around itself in an attempt to annihilate itself.

A mind suffused with faith is a mind at war with itself.

Atheism is an exercise in faith...against faith...in denial of faith...in suppression of faith. It is a religion where you conjure falsehoods and live in denial thereby worshipping your own self.

plaetton: It is no wonder that religious faith has often been likened to mild forms of mental illnesses.

Ah ah! But in a 2004 research in UCLA, scholars found that religious student had better mental health than the irreligious.

plaetton: Ask yourself, why does a real self-evident creator of the universe need to be perpetually promoted and defended by an astonishing battalion of myths, priesthoods, doctrines, the enormous edifice of organized religion, and , of course, threats of eternal punishment for failure to relinquish inner doubt?
Why?
Why can't god be simply self-evident?.

You're asking why cant monarchies and governments be self evident without palaces and promotion and propaganda and secrecy and intrigue?

Wonderful!

plaetton: A self-evident god would require no myths, no religion and certainly no priesthood.

Religion and faith would be redundant and superfluous for a real, self-evident god.

A non existent being would need no arguments against it. The wont be Atheism. No need for priest plaetton to preach against him to his congregation.

]

You're fallacious.

What is prayer?

I bet you dont know what it is that is why you say these.

plaetton: Anyways. Back to topic.
@Italo
Prayer is evidence of doubt. Special prayer is more evidence of doubt, and prayer intercession, is that some type of delegated faith? Faith by proxy?

Isn't that the mother of all doubts about faith?

Are you saying that it is unlikely that God is, or are you saying God isnt?

Be clear.

plaetton:

Did I do typo, or that you failed to comprehend what I wrote?
Your god does not meet the barest minimum of proof. Made.
For example, when you believe in gravity or not, it acts upon u in a measurable, observable way.

]

99cent: This is a dumb topic.
why do you think Jesus prevented the "holier than thous" from stoning the adulterer?

We are not encouraging 'stoning.' Let satan not make you forget that Jesus told her: go and SIN NO MORE. We as citizens have the right to say to the government: do not ENCOURAGE THIS SIN...THIS MASSACRE...THIS GENOCIDE!

[quote author=99cent]Just because something is bad doesn't mean that you have a right to judge or persecute others for it. Leave that to the state government. The church should not be involved in promoting such matters. we were instructed very clearly not to JUDGE. christianity is about following God's instructions and encouraging others to salvation. Jesus did not say we have a right to ban abortion or ban condoms or ban this and that. God gave us free will for a reason. It is up to each individual to use his/her free will to make the right decisions. All of us in this world are sinners.

You have forgotten that the Church is part of the government of the people, for the people and by the people. We are citizens too, not aliens. We have a right to voice our opposition.

99cent: I personally don't think abortion is a good thing. but people who do it should not be persecuted.
ex. I don't support alcohol drinking. but who am I to promote a law to ban alcohol drinking?
or ban condoms or ban tattoos. what ARE WE TURNING INTO A CATHOLIC SHARIA STATE?
what about adultery? should we make that illegal by law too?

You are dishonestly making it to look like we are persecuting people who kill their babies. We persecute no one. The persecution is being done by those killing millions of defenseless innocent babies.

What about murder? Would you like the state to make it legal because the Church is against it too?

99cent: the catholic church needs to realize that this is not middle ages anymore when the church was the government. Church is NOT a government anymore (except in Muslim countries where the government is religious= sharia). religion should be a personal matter and the problem with the catholic church is that it sees itself as an authority over the world. who can blame them when they have a pope that is treated like a president so of course he will act like one and start imposing dumb laws like banning condoms and abortion. wonder why they haven't banned alcohol or made adultery illegal. . of course they will stone the woman not the man. as usual. irrespective of religion, the woman is somehow always the casualty. ex witchcraft accusations, adultery, abortion etc it's always one-sided.

If we could make adultery illegal, we will. It is illegal in many western countries and it is largely due to religious teaching.

We Catholic dont witch-haunt women. The Church views the mother that killed her child, the doctor that helped her do it, the father that consented, encouraged or even forced the woman to do it, every other person that contributed to it...in practically the same way

99cent: If I were ever to support a law to ban abortion, I will need to find a social reason for it and remove religious reasons. ex sending a thief to jail shouldn't have a religious reason. it is simply a social reason. We are not under sharia abeg.

We did not get our right to live from the social arena or society...we got it from God. So God decides if babies have a right to life, not unstable men and women.

What have I said to deserve this? Because I say that Atheists believe many things without having scientific evidence and they are ashamed to admit it?

Is it a crime to ask Atheists to prove their claims?

Can you confidently tell me that you have scientific evidence for all your beliefs?

[quote author=frank3.16]Hello mr..Mazaje, I will pls advice to stop arguing with italo of a guy. I mean the guy make wonder if there are people like this, never in my life have I seen such meaninless opinion.

Italo I will just like to know a little about ur educational foundation, that is if u are really educated. That way u can save anyone the stress of arguing wit u.
If u are really a graduate, then this strike must be called off asp because I can see the result in u.[/quote]

You have already admitted that Atheists believe macro-evolution without convincing evidence.

And YOU believe what you read in science journals without evidence.

What then is your problem?

mazaje: Which of the gods?. . .Allah, the hindus goddess shiva, the mayan god anku?. . The scientific theory of BB?. . .Which of the above exactly?. . .When you visit the breweries you will see how it is done. .




And you know he wasn't with a match and petrol how?. . .My question is how does evolution agree with what is written inside the bible?. . .Your failure to answer it says a lot. . .



God in the story lied simple, he used death to deter them and stop them from eating the fruit. . .To die means to lose your life. . .Remember the serpent was the one that actually told eve that if she eats she will not die but will gain knowledge according to the story. . .Now we are back to adam and eve. . .Do you believe what the bible says about how they were created?. . .if you do then pls explain to me how that agrees with the theory of evolution that says humans evolved from hominids. . .Which hominid did adam evolve from, since we are talking about adam. . .

You are yet to provide a single evidence for your claims. Save yourself the energy.

You dont have to write a book to show me evidence that you evolved from fish.

You either have it or you dont.

wiegraf: Erm, yes.
I know you'd rather I add miracles eg your talking donkeys, spiritual bab.ble, etc before you accept the objectively true, but that's not how sane operate.

You'd also like a narrative that places special you at the centre of the universe, yes?



You look like slaves, even if not mine, definitely.



More silly strawmen.

Look around you, do you notice....speciation?

So basically, the sun must have been magically put together because you didn't have hundreds of thousands of years to observe the process itself? Just as god planted dinosaur bones, shared ancestry and vestigials for giggles?

You could not deduce the formation of stars by observing, testing, evaluating the various phenomena involved in their creation? You could not test their premises and predictions?

Heck, why do we even bother with formalities such as trials. I mean if I allegedly murder someone, and the evidence from various sources and disciplines all play a part in implicating me beyond the shadow of a doubt, all objectively verified, why do you even bother trying me as you (and no one else as well) were not there to witness the murder?

Why do we bother with any science at all even?



Let's see get rid of those, and we'd have to rely on prayers to communicate and spirits to heal disease. Get rid of bibles and the only thing we'll miss are deluded, sociopathic bigots.

No, I still think toilet paper is more valuable than bible pages. It does serve a useful purpose.



Whatever happened to galileo and geocentric views?



lol. You do know that before it can stand still it had to be.....moving?

And please, no "the sun is moving around the centre of the galaxy", "everything 'moves' anyways considering say relativity", "you could model the universe with the earth as the centre" or whatever etc you can dream up. If you were explaining stuff to some savages what would you tell them, the earth revolves around the sun or the reverse?

Whatever happened to the myriad sects of xtianity?
Whatever happened to your church now supporting evolution?
etc etc etc



Delusion says nothing. It doesn't speak. But it manifests in nature. For instance, you speak of faith, you mean religious?

How many scientists believe in god?

Stephen jay gould. A respected scientist (not without his critics of course) sympathetic to bits of your case with his non overlapping magesteria nonsense. Numbers from the polls he used;



The pew research group

https://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/11/Scientists-and-Belief-1.gif


Even this article, also sympathetic to part of your cause. Ie one can be religious and a good scientist, is capable of being (a little) objective



Yet your delusions drive you to this statement;



See?

Onward with the word games
Actually, I've wasted enough time on you, for now...

So this is the only essential doctrine of Christianity...believing in Jesus to be saved?

Some "christians" say Jesus is God; some say he is man. You are saying we should just believe in him...it doesnt matter who he is?

Jesus said those who dont eat his flesh and drink his blood will not have life. You are saying even if we dont eat or drink we have life as long as we believe?

Paul said LOVE is greater than Faith and Hope. You are saying love is not even necessary to make heaven, only FAITH?

modupe01: Water baptism and the holy communion are both doctrines of the Bible. However they do not determine whether you get saved or not. The thief on the cross did neither but was saved. If you are saved you will want to obey these doctrines in the bible.

modupe01: It is essential that you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

What proof have you offered for your claims?

Mention one.

Mr Troll: Una de waste una time with Italo. He's not even a brilliant apologist. He's trying by all means to shift the burden of proof even when its obvious that he's making silly statements.

The only 'proof' he has been able to profer is to tell us to go to god with humility and he will reveal himself. I mean, How silly is that?

Now he's here squirming like a cornered rat. Mcheew!

^^^

Satan will fight tooth and nail against God's Church and anyone else who is doing the will of God...like fighting for the right to life for the humans in the womb.

So you agree that it is not a certainty that God doesnt exist.

Meaning that it is possible God exists.

Hmm...how positions are changing.

Can I call you agnostic now?

plaetton: if we can't see something, can't hear it, can't measure or quantify if, can't trace it, can't mathematically deduce it, then it mostly likely does not exist.

^^^

When you ask the opinion of a Catholic on a religious matter, your are essentially asking for the opinion of the Catholic Church.

There is no room for personal opinion except where the Church has no definitive teaching.

That is what it means when we say "I BELIEVE IN ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH" every Sunday.

If he had a differing opinion, he wouldnt be Catholic.

A house built on sand...

mazaje: Absence of evidence, is evidence of absence. . .

FALLACY!

If you dont have evidence that a coin is buried somewhere in the world, it wouldnt mean there is no coin buried anywhere in the world.

mazaje: What is asserted without evidence needs to be dismissed without evidence. .

Since you assert that God doesnt exist without evidence, I can dismiss it without evidence.

mazaje: Your god doesn't have to be seen. . .No two people that even feel your god agree on him. You guys claim that is the only way to know your god . . .People that claim to feel him all keep telling us very contradictory things about him. . . The problem is even christians do not agree on the BASIC nature of your god. . .While some say he is 3 in one,others say he is not 3 in one. .While others claim that they feel him when they speak in tongues, others do not agree that he can be felt that way. While others claim he can heal them, many do not agree that he heals directly etc. .I told you that many christians that buy into your god idea here on nairaland have publicly called those that belong to your sect pagans who are lost and do not know what they are doing. . .

You see, its very clear and obvious that people are just making things up and hiding behind the god idea. .God remains an idea as such people are just following the idea and making things up. . .

People also say contradictory things about love, evolution, life and everything on the face of the earth.

It means all these things dont exist?

Dont be silly!

mazaje: I have no evidence?. . .The drugs are the evidence. . .If I really want to see it in action all I need to do is visit any institution that manufactures drugs and it will be shown to me practically. . .You can not be this daft to be making such puerile statements. . .

Yea right. Like the world is the evidence that God created it.

How do you prove that beer is made by brewing?

The beer is the evidence.

Of course I'm not that daft. You are the one making puerile statements.

mazaje: But the bible said god created man a man and a woman and explained how he did it using sand and ribs. . .Do you agree or disagree with what was written?. . .How does the bible agree with evolution as your church has claimed?. . .

Auto-repeat again?

Jesus wasnt with matches and petrol when he said he'll set fire to the earth.

mazaje: I accept that I was wrong when i said the catholic church was against evolution in the beginning. . .But the question still remains. . .Does evolution support anything written inside the bible?. . .How does the creation account written in the bible support evolution?. . .Where does the bible claim humans evolved from hominid apes?. .Which hominid ape did Adam evolve from?. . .What about eve?. . Was she also an evolved hominid?. .

When Genesis said Adam and Eve would die the day they ate the fruit, it didnt mean they would lose their earthly life.

Even baboons know that.

I have never seen a fish turn human. No two people have seen it together. No visual or audio has captured it.

Yet you believe it that humans evolved from fish.

That you have not seen something is NEVER proof that it doesnt exist.

I believe thinking humans can agree on that point.

plaetton: Ok.
The evidence is very very clear. We have not seen him.
No two or more people have ever confirmed seeing him at once.

No visual or audio recording has ever been made of him.
Besides ancient myths, there is no historical or scientific evidence for the existence of such a being.
Even the existence UfOs have a wider and more credible scientific acceptance than god, unless , of course, god = UFO.

All theories relating to god, such as the 7-day creation, etc have been scientifically debunked.
If god created mankind, we still waiting for first contact( I and i dont mean in dreams or visions) with him universally.

So, there you have your proof that god does not exist.

Now, in order for you to debunk that, you will now have to prove that he exists by pointing him out to all.
And are not interested in looking inside your head to find god. We want real proof that we can see and touch.

Are you ok now?

And I will cite a BIBLE verse.