₦airaland Forum

So if you guy choose to remain poor, how are you supposed to help In financing the gospel? How is it going to reach the ends of the earth? How are you going to support the missionaries if all your doing is thinking of how to pay your children school fees?

What happened to scriptures like 1 John where God said "beloved I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers"?

What Happened to "Jesus became poor so that through His poverty you will be rich"?

What happened to " Jesus saying concerning the rich man to His disciples that if he like others would do, would have giving it all for His sake, he will receive a hundred fold in this time" not in heaven o?

You said Jesus said "its hard for a rich man to enter heaven, well why didn't you complete the verse where He said but with God it will be possible?

What happened to what Paul told a church " that God will make all grace abound to them so that they having sufficiency in all things abounds in every good work?

What happened to Jesus saying "The enemy comes to steal.....but I have come to give abundant life? Is your finances and health not part of what the enemy steals? And Jesus said " I have come to give in abundance.

What of Gal 3:13 "that the blessings of Abraham is ours by right. What was the blessing of Abraham? That God will bless Him to be a blessing isn't it. And God says the same blessing is also ours.

BTW. Anytime suffering is mentioned in the NT, is refers to suffering persecutions for the Word and gospel and not poverty or sickness.

The reason why you folks believe not in prosperity is because you heard someone climb and altar and took some part of the scriptures and twisted it and left the other parts. And you were fed with that.

chikweezy:
Pls whc of them is without biblical reference. Is it that the great tribulation will occur after rapture of the elect 1 Thess 4 or that Jesus only went to heaven after Forty days from resurrection. Don't make it more complicated than it already is - Remember the word 'paradise' is an English word, so it wasn't the original translation, of which I believe means heaven. Yes, Jesus did not lie by making that statement to the thief. However, Jesus most times spoke figuratively. (Remember in Matthew 24 where he was telling his disciples about the events preceding his second coming and he mentioned in vs 34 that this generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled. We see that the generation we would have thought he referred to has passed. However, we now know that it was a figurative statement. The case of the theif is not an exception. Except you dont agree with the belief that the rapture anf second coming are different events with the great tribulation in-between, then we may never reach a common ground. We need God's divine revelation to really come to terms with these truth in His word.

So how did you know it was figurative?

And when Jesus said this generation, shall not pass away.....,you and others are the only one that thought he was talking of the generation of that time. The disciples knew it wasn't their own generation.

There was nothing figurative in that statement.
The key to understanding what Jesus means is the context; that is, we must understand the verses that are surrounding verse 34, but especially the verses prior to it. In Matthew 24:4-31, Jesus is speaking of future events. The generation of people living when those events occur is the generation that Jesus speaks of "not passing" until He returns. Jesus had already told those living during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had been taken from them (Matthew 21:43). Therefore, it is imperative that Matthew 24-25 be seen as speaking of a future time. The word “generation” refers to the people alive in the future when the events of Matthew 24-25 will occur.

So you see, how can they think it was their generation when they know the kingdom had not been taking from them?.

Jozzy4:
What is Ressurection itself ?



So, this mistranslation is an example of resurection ?

Wait , if this thief has actually been resurected , WHY DID THE APOSTLE PAUL SAID THE RESSURECTION Has Not Started ?



John was in a vision man , he saw a preview of things that will happen in future present in symbols( Rev 1:1,2 ; 4:1)

You dont know what ressurection is ? Haaa !

Point of correction. Not everything John saw in the vision was concerning the future, but also that of the past and present.

E.g. The woman and the dragon and also the Lamb opening the seal and as a result the elders worshipped Him and said "You are worthy.......... Cause you have redeemed us by your blood........and as a result we will riegn on the earth"

Except if you are of the school of thought that Christians will have to wait for the new earth before they finally reign.

Secondly, I never said the thief resurrected, I was talking of soul sleep. Like I said, how can he be soul sleeping if Jesus said he will be in paradise today. Resurrection happens when spirits get back into their bodies on the earth.

You can't resurrect in heaven, only on earth.

dolphinheart:
Sir, "spirtual dead " is totally different from 'spirit dying". Show me scripture that says spirit die.
So if spirit die and body dies, which one remains conscious after death.?

Note, you did not answer the question concerning the spirit in you.

I'm not comparing jesus with solomon, the question is , did jesus use the same method of asking questions as used by the writer of ecclestiatis?

I've answered ur question on job

And I've long answered this question u asked. But you've refused to get it.

My spirit (the real me) came directly from God and existed in eternity before even creation of the world in the mind of God.

I was only just given a form in the flesh when I was In my Mothers womb.
As God said"before you were born I knew you and formed you in your mothers womb."

What is the second death? Final separation of spirits from God in the eternal lake of fire.

Death does not mean loss of consciousness as you are accustomed to, but falling from grace.

You talking that way because you are very used to physical death and all you think of is a loss of consciousness.

When Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, were they unconscious?.

dolphinheart:
Sir, "spirtual dead " is totally different from 'spirit dying". Show me scripture that says spirit die.
So if spirit die and body dies, which one remains conscious after death.?

Note, you did not answer the question concerning the spirit in you.

I'm not comparing jesus with solomon, the question is , did jesus use the same method of asking questions as used by the writer of ecclestiatis?

I've answered ur question on job

You've not answered it sir.

And who do you know the writer of Job is? Scholars say it could be one of his friends.

And was it Solomon himself that took a pen and wrote down Eccl or was it someone else that wrote what he might have said?

You see there is no basis to what you've been saying. Your just assuming tins.

dolphinheart:
Sir, spirit die? But I thought you guys say its the body that dies.? now the spirit is added to the things that die? This makes the statement in ecclestiatis true then, that "the dead are conscious of nothing! Right?
And again you forgot to put proof with the key word "spirit".
You said "sepiration from God, those who dnt have the life of God in them " without explaining how these affects the spirit in you and me.
Well this Brings about these questions : when did your spirit enter ur body? Did that spirit come from God and then became allienated from God?

You have not stated with proof where the scripture says spirit goes when man dies.

The wise man who wrote ecclestiatis used a method that another wise man who lived hundred of years later used. The second wise man jesus, also asked questions several times. Are we now saying that jesus does not know the answer to the questions he asked ? Or he was a natural man trying to reason out things logically too?

I believe the writer provided the answers to the question he asked: there is no difference between the spirit in animals and man, man and animals have the same spirit in them . These are from the inspired word of God and wateva these writers put down has Gods approval.

Lol.

Guy, ur understanding of scripture is

When I said spirits die, was there any mention of loss of consciousness?

Spiritual Death means separation from the life of God. (Very simple)

I have given you scriptures to show consciousness of people in hell or paradise.

BTW. Since you are using the internet. Why don't you google a study on the book of Ecclesiastics.

Don't compare Jesus with Solomon. And besides, No one has fully agreed that the writer of Eccl was Solomon.

And you skipped my argument on Job and his friends. Why don't you answer that?. Why will God be angry of something He inspired someone to say that covered chapters of the bible?. Why didn't He approve what they said but was ready to punish them until Job intervened?

So my broda, not all statements made in the Bible from an individual are directly inspired by God.

lomprico:
No time? But u had time to condemn the op!

Yes I had time for that.

And don't call it condemnation, call it a rebuke.

I would have the time to explain if I saw any christian having issues with what the OP posted. Like I told one of your fellows up there.

chikweezy:
Do u see how everytin is just twisted inside out....yes d bible mentioned 'souls at d altar seeking vengeance' but dis are events of the tribulation, therefore after rapture. Also, there is no reference in the bible concerning any saint being in heaven prior to rapture. Talking about the theif at Jesus side, that is a wrong analogy as Jesus never ascended to paradise after His death, it was until 40days after his resurrection (Acts 1)

All you said now, is with no scriptural backing.

Who told you Paradise was up in heaven? Do you know what Paradise is?

Jesus Himself said today, so wont that be lying if the today happened to be 40 days later?

Btw. How do you know that was after the rapture?. Those souls were slain for the word of God and were called servants by God (vs 11). And they were told to rest till the remaining servants like them were killed. Since you said it was after the rapture, why didn't they rapture with other saints.

Because we see that the wrath to come on those who were not raptured was in Chapter 16 later on.

dolphinheart:
The whole scripture was inspired by God. Even though the writers might write their own opinnion or emotions , God inspired them to write those words down . This means that those words are true, and the writer wrote the truth.
The writer of ecclestiatis cannot or would not have been able to write the words of ecclestiatis down if these words where not inspired, no matter his personal views, emotions or thoughts.

For those words to be written down, it must be truth and must also be the word of God.
Satan quoted the inspired word of God, he did not write it or was inspired . Satan quoting any scriture does not make a scripture inspired .

So lets look at it from your point:

If you say so, the why did God say this: Job 42:7

"It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8"Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."…"

Since you said every statement was inspired, why was God angry with Jobs Friends for saying what they said?

I mean, these guys had whole chapters of what they said.

lomprico:
U mean a weak christian like you who couldnt dispute what d op wrote.

Sory sir,

No time to defend it. Especially since it doesn't change anything eventually.

menesheh:
You are right by invoking evaluation impulses to the gullible Christians, but just debunking the idea raise without any reasons you provided against such, is still gonna do the things you are preventing, to rational minded Christian by commenting hatefully.

If I saw any Christian unable to defend it, I would have put up my reasons eventually. But not now.

I don't really believe any Christian in their right mind should just jump to believe stuffs. I didn't really see it as hate tho. We all have our own perspectives/way of seeing tins.

But my new response to him was not of hate. See I even called him my guy.

dolphinheart:
Sir, me and you will stick to the scriptures as the primary source of info. There are lots of books that one can find views on certain things on . But they are not inspired , or are they?

You quoted rev 20:11, that verse did not say "the spirit(s) stand" before the throne. It said "the dead".
Abi does the spirit die? So as to consider the spirit as dead.
Remember, the key word (spirit)I asked for when providing proof to ur statements .

The word "return" in genesis and the first part of eccl 12:7 is literal, why wunt the second "return be literal too?

Yes sir, spirits die.

How? Separation from God. Those who don't have the life of God in them.

E.g In Genesis, God said to Adam, the day you eat of this fruit, you shall die.

That's why the white throne judgement is meant for only sinners not saints(I saw the dead, both small and great...) The saints judgement is called the judgement seat of Christ where reward is giving based on good or bad done in the body.2 Cor5:10.

As for the spirit returning to God,

Why should you not take what he said literally?

"For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth? Ecc 3:21"

The same person you want to take literally said that. He was even questioning where the spirits go.

You see why I said "he talked as a natural man trying to reason out things logically" . so don't take what he said literally.

I just gave you scripture. Or do animals have spirits and go down to earth and not upwards? Because upwards is where God is isn't it?.

dolphinheart:
Was paul inspired by God to use poets?
Is all the scriptures inspired by God?
Are those verses by the writer of Ecclestiatis you mentioned not Inspired?

The whole bible was inspired to be written, collated and canonized by God.

That doesn't mean all statement made from individuals in the bible were directly inspired by God.

When Satan quoted scriptures to Jesus, who inspired him?

Its not a trick question.

Even though some statements made by individuals were not directly inspired by God, God inspired the writers to put it down. Why? Because there was something to gain from it.

By now you're supposed to understand my point.

blacq2009:
No bashing. Just grab your Bible and read my references. You'll become enlightened like I am.

I know them my guy. Its not a new thing to us.

menesheh:
Why did you then rushed to a conclusion that he is ignorant. Why not overlook it and go to other threads since you don't have strength to point out your reasons.

I was actually going to do so.

But I tot of the weak Christians that might be swayed by such. So I decided to place a controversial statement. So as to spark doubt concerning his assumptions.

If I left the thread and maybe there was no Christian to comment against it, some gullible ones might think:

"Hey, it's like what this guy is saying is true, since I saw no one contradicting him"

Its all psychology.

menesheh:
You're missing something here, i never said that it's not real but i asked you why it is real although i don't buy the idea of it being real until the time you come-up with evidence to that assertion of its reality. Before you lay the burden of proof on me is if i said that it is not real. Check my previous comments on this post and tell me where i assert that it is not real.

That's what I've been saying all along, its real to us because of our own personal encounters.

Now the issue is, you want proof for our encounters in Christianity. To show its real.

I am not in the mood to get all preachy now, because at the end of the day that's not how it works trying to prove it to you.

Whether you believe it or nor, or like it or not, its only the person known as the Holy Spirit that can make it real to a person.

I have seen a monk floating in the air on the streets without anything on the ground (don't try to give any logical bla bla....I have also seen fake). But I didn't go and follow their religion just because I saw someone doing something supernatural.

Why?

Well, because I know the truth.

How do I know the truth?

That's another lecture entirely.

menesheh:
Your reasons?

The truth is, I really don't have time to answer all points he put up there. Maybe someone else that is enlightened will do. Cause its a long teaching.

But for now, I have to leave him to his ignorance.

OP....Your ignorance knows no bounds.

Jozzy4:
What is Resurection ?

Good question.

Resurrection back into the world. The same way Jesus resurrected back into the world.

Points to consider:

1. The thief on the cross was told by Jesus "that TODAY you will be with me in paradise" so right now is he soul sleeping?

2. In Revelations, the Matyrd souls under the altar crying for vengeance, were they soul sleeping? Cause we could see that the judgement had not even come yet. But yet God gave them Robes and told them to wait till others like them would be killed. Jesus had not yet judged and giving rewards to the saints then.

frank317:
Be honest... If a Muslim says he encountered Allah and Allah told him he is the real God and not Yahweh... Would you believe him? Or would you call him fake?

Yes I will believe someone appeared to him and said so. (Its nothing new)

Why?

Because I believe in the supernatural.

The Issue now is since we that believe in the supernatural know of the fight between good and evil over there, then we ask ourselves what the person encounters is it false or truth?

So now the question is, how do we know which is the false and the truth?...

But let me not jump the gun. We are still dealing with the basis, which is.... "Is God real?"

menesheh:
Are pushing the burden of proof to me? You are the one asserting that such a meduim real.

Yup.

You keep saying its not real but yet have no proof.

Someone says "I encountered God" Therefore God is real to that person.

But skeptics say it is fake. Well where is the proof that it was fake? Where is the proof that that the sighting of the Lochness monster in the Scottish river was fake?

My point: Assumptions. Skeptics base their ideology on assumptions.

Because something was not experienced by them, then it can't be real.

MrPresident1:
He who has an ear, let him hear.

There is already a timeline for these events.

All events in these breakdown will be accomplished before the 15th of September 2015.

Na wa o. So if we don't see anything, I hope you won't say the date has changed?

Sukkot 2.0

menesheh:
How is Christianity real?

How isn't it real?

prettysassygirl:
only God knows

Very simple answer.

That's all!

[quote author=Jozzy4 post=37232799]All i see is a confuse guy running in circles .

Ecclesistes is a book of " Truth" Ecc 12:10 , do you agree that all spirit return to God in heaven as stated in the scriptures?[/quote

I have giving a reply above to the other guy.

But you didn't answer my question, Does money answer all things?

If you can answer that, then we can move from there.

dolphinheart:
So you are saying that that statement is true if its not taking literarily abi?
If so, then where did the bible tell us the spirit literarily goes? (key word, spirit)
Can you add scriptural proof to this statements of urs:
(a)"all spirits will one day stand before God"( key word, spirits).

Personal view(you can prove me wrong)
I do think the words used by the writer is "stand before God" he specifically stated " return to God " . The word "return" is used twice there, are we to take one literarily and the other not literarily?

I also think this statement goes along with the story of the literal creation of adam . Adam is said to come from dust, and the breathe if life came into him became a living creature, adam became a soul. Now when man dies, this two things seperate, the process is reversed, but according to how the process came to be in the first place and like genesis and eclle says , the dust, the flesh, man, adam returns to dust and that spirit ( the bible sometimes used "it" for the spirit in man) returns back to God who gave it!

So if Adams case is literal, why can't this reversal be literal.?

Pls note, we are not arguing , we are only having a discussion, learning from each other

Its's not hard to understand. All sprits will one day stand before God. E.g The Judgement of the saints and also the White Throne Judgement.

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.… Rev 20:11"

And as for the return to God Issue, I have said the book of Ecclesiastics was writing from the standpoint of Man without God and purpose. He pondered on life from the Logical perspective and not the spiritual.

Look at this:

In discussing this matter I have found the quotation from President Brigham Young contained in his Discourses, which says: "[The scripture] reads that the spirit goes to God who gave it. Let me render this scripture a little plainer; when the spirits leave their bodies they are in the presence of our Father and God, they are prepared then to see, hear and understand spiritual things. But where is the spirit world?" He answers by saying this:

"If we go back to our mother country, the States, we there find the righteous, and we there find the wicked; if we go to California, we there find the righteous and the wicked, all dwelling together; and when we go beyond this veil, and leave our bodies which were taken from mother earth, and which must return, our spirits will pass beyond the veil; we go where both Saints and sinners go; they all go to one place.

"If the wicked wish to escape from his presence, they must go where he is not, where he does not live, where his influence does not preside. To find such a place is impossible, except they go beyond the bounds of time and space." (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1941], pp. 376-77.)

As I understand what President Young is saying, when we go home to God, it is just like going back to our home country. We may not go into the presence of the governor of the state where we live, but we will go to the home country, and there we shall find our level among the people with whom we are most accustomed to associate. (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pp. 57-58)

chikweezy:
Plss in dat case, since u knw there is white throne judgement, using biblical reference, reconcile this ur write up with wat d bible the event of the white throne judgement and d 'first resurrection'

Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

Ponder on that.

Jozzy4:
So the writer of ecclesiastes is not inspired of God ?

Read what I told the guy above.

dolphinheart:
So we must remove those verses as part of the inspired word of God?.

Did you even understand what we've been talking about since

Now get what I am saying from this point: Paul himself used Poems from Greek poets to help in teaching the word.

adexsimply:
balderdash

Still doesn't change anything.

dmandy:
If sincerely did... I will believe you.

But seriously, I understand it's hard to accept the truth because of being brought up in a particular way. Just the way its hard for you to persuade Muslims concerning what they believe in.

You know its not scriptural on the saints interceding issue. There was never any command. But it was suggestion from one of the catholic father's which later became a dogma.

Just the same way I am sure you don't agree with the JW on Jesus being angel Michael. You see how they twist scriptures to suit the purpose.

Open your eyes and see broda.

dolphinheart:
An expression of what! . Is it an expression of what he knows or what he feels. He made a statement , is that statement true or false. There is nothing like neither in determining if a statement is true or false

BTW.
Ecclesiastes 9:4, 6, 10 is written from the standpoint of knowledge "under the sun", from the viewpoint of natural man who lives without thoughts for God. This restates the philosophy of unbelievers that "when you're dead, you're dead."

That was why I said it is also know as a book of perspective. Perspective of a natural man.