₦airaland Forum

Hermes019:
I get the point,but if I may ask,what is ur basis for morality, or do u just see whatever people regard as good to be good and what they see as bad to be bad

The basis of morality is hinged on a fundamental belief or assumption about the subject of moral value.

Example: Human life is sacred.
This is a fundamental belief about the subject of moral value.

The subject here is Human life

Killing is an action. If you assume killing is wrong without showing how then it is baseless.

Let me demonstrate: Mr Obi killed a goat.

Mrs Ada killed a human.

Which is wrong?

Me: Mrs Ada because human life is sacred.

If you say Mrs Ada is wrong because killing is wrong, then why is mr Obi not wrong? They both killed?

See? The difference is the subject of the action not the action itself.

So, the fundamental belief behind the subject is a determinant for the moral implications of an action.

Do you understand this basis now?

For both cases I will give the same reason
They cause harm and the purpose behind the act is unjustifiable

Why is causing harm bad?

Don't you kill chickens? Don't you cause it harm? Why is that not as bad as killing a human?

What's the difference? Your moral premise is hinged on causing harm, so why is the case of causing harm to a chicken not just as bad?

You see the problem here? You made a logical leap of saying something bad for a reason you have not shown to be bad.

That's the dilema of secular morality.

It is not always an option not to get pregnant,we have instances of rape,I agree on the rest

Principle of exception

No,in your previous post u said the child should not be punished for the sin of the father and I was reminding u that the woman doesn't deserve the punishment of carrying s pregnancy she didn't ask for,I know that the baby's life is important as well but I cannot choose it over the woman in this case,even if it is a human being as you say it is still a few weeks old,the welfare of a grown woman is more precious to me than a 6week old foetus

I said what i said. A rapist is a horrible human that deserves punishment for his/crime. But, a child cropping up from this unfortunate event is entirely innocent.

I will never weigh a grown woman's feelings more than the life of another human.

OK I guess we have reached a conclusion on this,I now consider it murder to terminate the life of a foetus no matter how young it is,except if a surgical procedure would definitely cause harm to the mother,if anyone does not want to keep a pregnancy they should simply have the foetus removed

Their business.
My argument is sorely on the moral implications.

themonk:
I'm agnostic but I feel there might be powers beyond what science can explain. I am just trying to start a journey towards discovering or refuting them.

See, this universe is huge, intricate and spooky, of course they are parts of the universe that we cannot explain yet, of course we may discover things so strange we couldn't explain them, of course we can find things that challenges our faith in the laws of physics. In a universe this large, you think it is predictable or you can in fact find out the totality of what it offers?

If we have no eyes we would be unawares about the existence of color, we could be missing a whole aspect of existence because we have no organ or equipment to detect them.

I do not think anything is supernatural, everything, no matter how weird is still natural.

But about the claims of miracle and magic shows, that's absolute nonsense and awfully not impressive.

Which of them is more mind blowing that you can pick a little box in your hand, talk to someone at the other end with his own little box as if you both are the same?

hahn:
You know she is only being an ass

No Christian can help us here answer this question. That's kinda funny.

Next time on another thread now, they will be yapping about the purpose and meaning of life.

E don set now, they are no show

Hermes019:
I think we can reach a compromise on this,since u do not support abortion how about we see it this way
If a woman conceives and does not want to keep the baby,she should have it removed surgically,and then the baby can be put in an incubator until it becomes mature enough,the woman would not have the right to claim the baby,maybe an agency or couple who want to adopt a child could fund the expenses and automatically become the kids parents.

I agree with this

I don't really know how you arrived at abortion being immoral and your whole Sacredness of life position,

How i arrived? Lol. That's not me. That is a fundamental belief behind human morality for it to make sense. Without it, human morality do not make sense or have any basis.

That's why secular morality is quite a dilema, they don't always seem to understand why they say something is right or wrong.

And if there is no basis for a moral position, it is inherently meaningless.

I have a couple of questions for you;

Why do you think rape is bad?
Why is murder wrong?

but for me a woman should have the right to say if she wants to keep a pregnancy or not,after all it is her body,but since we are dealing with a "human being" she could simply remove the foetus and whoever is interested can take it up from there,I don't see that as murder

premeditated termination of a human life is murder. A woman has every control of her body and her choice, there is an option not to get pregnant in the first place.

It is my position that nobody, absolutely nobody should have the right to kill another human.

Do you know that if you kill a pregnant woman that you are not charged with 1 count murder but 2?

You can't have this both ways, either murder is wrong or it isn't.

In the instance of rape which u commented on,u said the child is innocent and shouldnt bear the "consequences" but then I ask,is it the mother that should suffer,whoss feeling matters more to you,a 6 week old foetus or a 25 yr old woman

I do not weigh any one feelings more than another's life.

It's incomparable.

This Guy's feelings and this one's life.

In any case,I want to have your thoughts on what I said,would you still consider it as murder if the woman which in this case doesn't want to have the pregnancy has it removed especially at the early stages,and then those interested in the life of the baby takes it up from there to make sure it grows ?,is that the same as murder ?

Nope. It is not murder. Murder only occurs when a human life is terminated, not when moved from one place to another.

If you think i am against someone removing the baby in her womb then that's sadly a mistake.

I'm against killing it (directly or by proxy)

Anas09:
Ewwwoooh, John, you dey do back and front?

I give up on you

Anas09:
Boy, are you a homo?

Ah, John get babe o, so find another dude.

A guy can't tell another guy 'I love you'?

Anas09:
First and foremost. Is there heaven? Is there anything like eternal life? Let's start from there.

I will assume there is a heaven, i will assume for this premise there is an afterlife, we need not argue over that for this thread.

This was right on the OP smh

hahn:
The purpose of afterlife is to gain, for free, everything we were unable to achieve here on earth in heaven.

For instance, Muslims want to sleep and marry as many women as possible but since they can't afford it they instead look forward to 72 virgins in heaven.

After getting the 72 virgins and an eternal booze river? What then is the meaning and purpose afterwards?

The Christians want mansions, good food(the irony) and gold plated roads but since they can't achieve it here they instead wallow in the self delusion that they will get these things in the afterlife.

hahahaha

futurist369:
johhny it's such an honor to be finally able to meet the great physicist.. I love you Johnny.....well I don't believe in a heaven or hell..... we all are here with a mission........am still an o level student but have been reading quantum physics...according to qp everything is energy(including humans), and energy cannot be created nor destroyed(do you get where am driving to?)....its an honor to be able to quote you

I would want to see the end of this chain.

The honor is mine by the way

Hermes019:
Hahn u be monitoring spirit

na today you know?

One of the questions that theists easily throw at people who show skepticism or disbelief in Gods or afterlife is "What is the meaning of life? what is the purpose of life if we do not have an afterlife?"

Somehow i find this question to be shallow because one must first make a logical leap of assuming that "meaning and purpose" are inherent universal qualities before basing such question on that premise.

The argument can be summarized this way;

Life is limited
there is suffering in life
life ends eventually, therefore, what is the meaning and purpose of it all?

We could explore this question on this thread too. But however, i am returning the favor to theists who ask this question.

I will assume there is a heaven, i will assume for this premise there is an afterlife, we need not argue over that for this thread.

What exactly is the meaning of an eternal life in heaven? Demonstrate its meaningfulness and how it is derived?

What is the purpose of a life without end? Demonstrate this purpose and how it is derived?

GreatResearcher:
it has been proven.

a negative of this nature has been proven?

Super funny dude!!!

LordReed:
There are conditions under which such a procedure will be allowed which is danger to the mother's health. So essentially you are choosing between the mother and child. I think its a welcome development, people should have a choice in how they want to live or die.

Actually No. A child at viable stage can simply be removed from the womb and placed in incubation.

There is no way killing a viable child is an ever an option.

Unless it is not viable which of course is legal even in Nigeria.

hahn:
Well exactly because in this case whether I think it is right or wrong doesn't matter. But that is not the aim of the op is it?

Since when did whether something matters or not becomes synonymous with it being moral right or wrong? That's funny

hahn:
I think everyone has a right to love whoever or whatever they want to love and they shouldn't be embarrassed or disgraced for it

Since it's illegal in Nigeria doesn't this according to you mean it's wrong.

I.e: Remember you think moral right or wrong is hinged on legality

hahn:
You are only being arrogant and self delusional in this case

Hahahaha the argument is up there

hahn:
Lol. Your ramblings are infantile at best.

It's all good

Is this another way of saying "I do not have a better argument"?

Don't worry, i understand. I know I'm that good, even you do.

You can't go anywhere with this one

hahn:
I guess it is easier when it comes to kids because the kid is barely aware of it's environment plus not everyone is ready to have kids.

To me it is not, we are still violating the very principle on which murder is abhorred which is "Human life"

Human law primarily is meant to even the ground for the survival of the strong and the weak alike, an unborn is as weak as a human can get, it is an irony that human law means to abandon the weakest amongst us.

Like in the instance of women who are raped and get pregnant

I have always said, the consequence of rape must rest with the rapist.

However, a child is innocent in this unfortunate event

or women whose lovers refuse to take the responsibilities of having the child

Sexual relations comes with consequences. I would never have another human blatantly innocent pay for the consequence of my choice.

or even women who are advised against given birth to a child with deformities

What do you say we round up every deformed individual in Nigeria and kill them?

you cannot force these women to give birth to kids who might end up living in poverty or pain.

1. I do not presume to force anyone.

2. Choosing not to have a child is a choice that can be made before getting pregnant in the first place

3. What do you say, we round up every poor child in the world today and kill them all to save them from poverty and pain?

You all sound like inserting things like 'poverty' 'suffering' makes it any more humane to murder another.

These are also real life situations that have to be put into consideration. I'd say the concensus is that as until the child is actually out of the womb it can be aborted if the mother has a reason to.

Well, you can say and believe that. It is still tantamount to murder and it is an abhorrable behaviour.

hahn:
Lol.

A thought just crossed my mind. After this people will start arguing the right to murder someome

Aren't they doing that already with abortion?

hahn:
Why?

Simple; it ticks the box upon which moral abhorrence of murder is based.

hahn:
You can just say if something is right or wrong without looking at all the angles. We are not kids here. Different situations require different actions

The premise is on Right or Wrong. Explore any determining angle on right or wrong but keep them within the premise or it is non sequitur

I won't mind going into the business myself

So, it will be morally right the


[quote
To Hitler it was in necessary though. Let's not forget that[/quote]So? The subjective necessity of his action makes it right? Is that what you are saying? Lmao.

I am saying not everything is black and white

oh sure. So, make it clear now.

Are you arguing for necessary evil or that legality means right?

Seems you have chewing the two

frosbel2:
A picture speaks a thousand words - figure it out !

This is enough dose of ambiguity to last me for the year. If you are going at least be clear with it

hahn:
Your op na shuu. Is it morally right or wrong?

Oh. It is morally wrong. Which has always been my position on abortion.

hahn:
Do you think it is right or wrong?

Is what right or wrong?

frosbel2:
Because at 9 months ;

https://www.sciencenews.org/sites/default/files/main/blogposts/ls_newborn_shutterstock_77125552_free.jpg

At 9 months what happens?

hahn:
As long as the constitution of the nation supports it I don't see how being moral or not matters.

Lol. This is not the premise; the question is; are they right or wrong not whether it matters.

Jesus!

It is against the law to engage in homosexual activities in Nigeria. Whether I feel humans are morally obligated to love whoever they want really doesn't matter and won't stop homosexuals getting arrested.

Again, not the point.

Was slavery wrong? Well at the time it wasn't and it was a profitable business. Is it wrong now? Yes

Good.

So, if we happen to legalize slavery again, it becomes right?

Was the holocaust even legal ie was it in the German constitution?

Oh yes it was under Nazi Germany

We all know that was just Hitler high on assholicious.

Is this your way of saying it isn't right? By calling Hitler an asshole? Ok, we are making progress.

North Korea executing people for what it probably termed treason was probably right.

Good.

Some people will argue that cheating is right because men are naturally polygamous.

What

We cannot judge everything by the same principles of whether it is moral or not.

Oh we can.

What about in situations where it is necessary?

I'm 100% certain that in the philosophy of morality, the principle of necessary exceptions is still applied.

For instance we will all argue that murder is wrong right?

Yes.

Some years ago I read a story of how a family was caught up in book haram territory. Now there was the mother, father and about five kids and while they were hiding the baby, less than a year, started crying and the father had to close it's mouth to stop it from making noise and in the process ended up suffocating the baby to death.

from your story, it seemed more like an accident. 100% excusable.

If he hadn't done that they would have all been killed. It might not be moral but it was necessary.

Just saying

So, all in all, are you arguing for necessary evil or that legality is same thing as morally right because i don't even know

frosbel2:
not good - totally against this !!!

Why?

hahn:
Yes

Slavery was right or wrong?

The holocaust was right or wrong?

North Korea executing people for not supporting the government, morally right or wrong?

What do you think about the moral permissibility of these examples?

AryEmber:
Now, what point are you trying to drive out gan?

read the OP again.

Note the questions.

Then think about it.

Then comment again based on the premise the OP raised

hahn:
Since it is legal then it is right

Legality means right huh? Are you really sure about that?

AryEmber:
You and abortion sha!

I know right?

Blakjewelry:
at nine month? that is murder

why?