₦airaland Forum

Ubenedictus: ha! U have started did i present d writtings of a pope to explain it? Why did u write 'according to rc'? You are the person who interpreted the word kecharitomene as the perfect passive particle of charitoo (grace), yet you are denying the fact that kecharitomene shows grace in the perfect tense, pope johnpaul wasnt d person wu wrote kecharitomene in the bible, d apostle st luke did. So grace in perfect tense is not just according to the catholic church, it is according to the bible. So i ask you, do u accept d testimony of scripture?

Ubenedictus: how can u rest a case when u didnt make one in d first place.

Ubenedictus: to me you are the persom who made everything personal, if you wish to discuss, do so with dignity not by writting 'bladerdash' after someones post.
If you dont wish to make an honest discussion leave the thread

Ubenedictus: all thru my life, i have hated this attitude. You didnt challenge any of her points u just wrote 'balderdash'. You u cant make a discussion dont post something like this.

Ubenedictus: i just finish explaining the meaning of grace in perfect tense, im surprised to see this. Mary was in a state of grace that was once and for all and didnt need to be repeated and you are asking if she stood firm till the end. Do you know how u sound?

k2039: I REST MY CASE

madu97: madu97

HumbledbYGrace: This is life ok?

Lins01: Akindele has grown through the ranks in the church having joined in 1962 as a church worker. He had served as a chorister, Sunday school teacher, private secretary to the late founder before being ordained full pastor in 1981. He has been National Treasurer and Secretary General of the National Elders’ Council of the church. He had worked in Edo and Ondo States for the church and was appointed Assistant General Overseer at the 1997 national convention of the church.

Lins01: The Premier learnt that the church in appreciation to the late founder for his pioneering efforts in sowing the seed that has so germinated brilliantly, ceded the number two position to the family hence when the first daughter, Deborah got married to Akindele, the number two position in the church was automatically bestowed on Akindele. Thus, the man was made the Assistant General Overseer, Administration/Personnel.

sexkillz: [color=#000030]I dey laugh. . .

This is a nice example for his congregation to follow. Thieves!

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sexkillz: Hypocritical thieving workers of lawlessness. . .

Ubenedictus: it seem again that you are passing judgement, we were talking abt the celebration of d birth of mary, d discussion has turned to that on immaculate conception and sinlessnes, you want to add papal infalliability to it. That will divert the thread, 3 topics in one thread. Ha! Na wa for u.

Ubenedictus: my bible teaches my to hold fast to tradition. Can you see the verse in your bible?

Ubenedictus: it seems you have passed judgement? Is there stil a reason to continue d discussion?

HumbledbYGrace: Never say Never

Ubenedictus: what a comment? Where is the word "above" in the scripture passage you quoted? Have you started to make your own bible?

Ubenedictus: my bible teaches my to hold fast to tradition. Can you see the verse in your bible?

Ubenedictus: what are you contending? Did mary not do the will of the father? Answer me yes or no.

naslinks: 3. Mary's Bodily Assumption into Heaven

I find it strange that Protestant Evangelicals never seem to wonder where Mary is now, or what her role might be. If they do chance to wonder, they generally keep it to themselves. Raise too many of the wrong topics, and questions may start being asked about whether you really are "one of the group". Therefore it is quite common for Protestant evangelicals who are quite certain that Uncle Fred is in heaven, wearing his kingly crown, or that they themselves are heaven bound, to question Mary's presence there.

So, let's scotch that one straight away. If the Virgin Mary isn't in heaven, then there's very little chance that anyone else will ever get there. Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we hope to become in Christ, She already is. . Out of the millions of "decisions" made for Christ, Mary's was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses.

4. Mary Queen of Heaven

Another doctrine many Protestants object to is that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. So what Biblical justification is there for this?

Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Here is a Bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of twelve stars. A crown plainly denotes Queenship. How much more clearly could Mary's honour be illustrated?

5. The Immaculate Conception

Quite simply this doctrine states that the Virgin Mary was preserved free of Original Sin from the moment of her conception, and so was made sinless.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DOCTRINE?

It has to do with the Holiness of God. God cannot tolerate Sin. Mary as the God-bearer in Jesus had to be sinless in order to be in such close proximity to God Himself. The whole Bible teaches that God's presence demands and imparts holiness. (Ex 3:5; Deut 23:14; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Jn 3:5-6; Rev 21:27). The Jewish high priest entered the Holy of Holies only once a year, under threat of death if God's instructions were violated (Lev 16:2-4,13). The Ark itself was so holy that only a few were allowed to touch it (Num 4:15; 2 Sam 6:2-7). Thus, Mary, due to her physical and spiritual relationship with God, necessarily had to be granted the grace of sinlessness.

In other words, since Jesus took flesh in and from Mary's body, and also obtained His Human Nature from Her, she had to be perfectly sinless. The only question that then arises is when and how Mary was made sinless.

Protestants are quite willing to admit that we are cleansed of our sins at baptism. Yet Mary could not have been baptised at the time of the Annunciation, or even Jesus's birth. For this reason her sinlessness had to come in a special and unique manner. To be pure and free from all sin as God required, she had not only to be free of sin at one point in time, (as one is immediately after baptism,) but to remain sinless throughout her life.

JUST A MINUTE. DIDN'T MARY HERSELF ADMIT THAT SHE NEEDED A SAVIOUR? HOW COULD SHE BE SINLESS?

Mary did indeed agree she needed a Saviour:

Luke 1.46: And Mary said "My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour,"

But this presents no difficulty. We have seen that Mary needed to be perfectly sinless in order to bear Jesus. Did she attain that sinlessness through her own human efforts? No. She was redeemed by her son - as was all the rest of humanity. She needed God's Grace. And in order to be, and remain, sinless she needed that grace before her own birth.

We can see that in Luke 1.46 Mary speaks of God as her Saviour, but she speaks in the present tense. She does not say "God, who will be my Saviour." She has already been redeemed.

If we look at one of the Old Testament passages that Mary bases her words upon, we see this more clearly.

Isaiah 51.10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

As virtually every educated 1st Century Jew would have recognised, in echoing this passage, Mary clearly considered that God had already clothed her with the garments of salvation, and covered her with the robe of righteousness. Her sin had already been wiped away.

This is supported by the angel's greeting to Mary:

Luke 1.28: The angel went to her and said, "Hail, you who are full of grace (Literally: you who have been and remain filled with Grace). The Lord is with you."

Grace in the New Testament is seen as the antidote to sin. (Rom 3:24, 5:15-17, 6:14 11:6) So being filled with Grace strongly implies sinlessness. And since Mary required the grace of redemption before her own birth, it is quite fitting that this happened at her conception. Is this a problem for God? No. Jesus is the perfect Redeemer. Therefore he must have redeemed one person perfectly. That person is Mary, having been redeemed by Jesus from Original Sin from the moment of her own conception.
To be continue

HumbledbYGrace: Now wat if u fall for a lady,u really get to know and love her and even have plans to marry her but u find out she is a mother how would u react?

naslinks: Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine. 

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3). 

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ. 

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ. 

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God. 

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do. 

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God. 

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.

naslinks: It is a curious fact that some seem to have a major problem with the Virgin Mary. It is a problem that goes far beyond theological reason and debate. In some quarters there seems to be a major antipathy, almost hatred, directed at one of the key figures in the story of redemption. In fact a few protestant apologists write of the Mother of the Redeemer almost as if she were the enemy of God. How can this unhealthy state of affairs have come about?

Perhaps it has something to do with the misogynistic tendencies that were evident in many of the Reformers, although most actually maintained Marian doctrines that would surprise their modern-day followers. There is also a great deal of ignorance among modern-day protestants as to the Scriptural and other ancient support for most of the Marian doctrines. It is the fundamentalist move away from Mary that has been the recent aberation. Yet even many Protestant Christians who are not so extreme still believe that Catholic and Orthodox doctrines on the Virgin Mary are unscriptural and are inventions of the Medieval Church, being unknown to the early Christians.
To find out, we must examine the doctrines about the Virgin Mary which Evangelical Protestants claim to be unscriptural

1. Mary is the Mother of God

2. Mary is the Mother of All Christians

3. Mary's Bodily Assumption into Heaven

4. Mary Queen of Heaven

5.The Immaculate Conception

6. Mediatrix

7. Ever Virgin
1. Mary is the Mother of God

This is quite simply explained. The main puzzle is why any Christian should object to this title. All Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also IS God, being the 2nd Person of the Trinity, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is also the son of Mary. Now many Protestants are quite prepared to say "Mary, Mother of Jesus," but balk at saying "Mary, Mother of God." Why?

There is probably an element of cultural conditioning here. Giving Mary such a title seems too grand to many protestants. For centuries most protestants have tried to ignore Mary, and have avoided all talk and discussion of her - except perhaps to condemn Catholic "excesses". But this is a serious matter. To call Mary the "Mother of Jesus" and yet refuse to call her "Mother of God" is to diminish Jesus as well as Mary, for it is a denial that Jesus is truly or fully God.

It was this sort of thinking that led to the formal definition of the title Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. Patriarch Nestorius had preached that Mary was not Mother of God, being only the mother of Jesus's physical body, which was then indwelt by God the Word. This was condemned as Heresy, since the Gospels tell us that the Word did not unite with man, but was made man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.." (John 1.14). This is a crucial difference. Jesus was not two persons: the Son of God, and the Son of Mary, but one person, the Son of God and Mary. If this were not so, his death could not have saved us.

2. Mary is the Mother of All Christians

An evangelical Christian once retorted indignantly to me "Mary isn't my Mother." To which I was forced to respond. "Then what you're really saying is that Jesus is not your Brother." And in truth it is as simple as that. If we as Christians are brothers of Jesus, then, as with Jesus, God is our Father and Mary is our Mother.

The bible also teaches, that all Christians become part of the body of Christ. Again this re-emphasises the fact that as Christians become one with Jesus they share with Him, the Fatherhood of God and also, the motherhood of Mary.

The New Testament has two further passages which confirm Mary's motherhood of Christians:

John 19.25: Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on the disciple took her into his home.

This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John "looking after" Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.

Revelation 12.17: Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This passage shows the Dragon (Satan), making war on the Woman (Mary)'s offspring, following the birth of Jesus. (see Queen of Heaven for more on Revelation 12) These offspring, clearly represent the community of Christians, who are "the rest of" Mary's children.
To be continue

swtchicgurl: ouch! i share your pain. what's pyguru? if u did nothing wrong, why then were you banned?

serialeco: My dear friend (K2039),
Being ready to free yourself and mind from the captivity of poverty is one of the decisions to make. Many are in this condition; moving away and breaking free requires concious and focused effort.
Your future is in your hands and you will only go as far as you can genuinely imagine.

zonax: Dabgote is a persons name, so is Adenuga. What are you providing for Nigerians? Why can't your name be on that list abi dem Dangote dem no be human like you? For the records, I run a company and currently employing about 53 Nigerians and still aiming hire. Do something dear and leav the government.

olasmith10: I did and the pastor revealed to me that there is a particular girl in my school that I should try and get close to.I was shocked because that was Grace,a girl in my class who admire me so much and will do anything to have my attention

olasmith10: I don't realy know her motive.