₦airaland Forum

1. An entity can not act beyond its nature, it neceSsarily conforms to it. Free will doesn't change that.

2. Meaning is the central theme of teleology, therefore isn't the reason for its presumption, otherwise its tautology

2. It is necessary, cos they must derive their character from the same origin.

3. You said teleology must stand cos there would be no meaning in the present, which is using teleology to define teleology

ROSSIKE: More loudly stated IGNORANCE.

Near-Death Experiences, which mirror OBEs, occur when a patient is in a state of clinical death, has lost ALL five senses, and the blood, heart, and all bodily functions have completely ceased. A state of clinical death physiologically is no different from actual death. Actual death is only declared after efforts to revive the clinically dead patient fails. But physiologically there is NO DIFFERENCE between the two states.

Yet NDE's report the most vivid experiences while in that state. How do you explain that?

Good point, however if someone is brain dead, has a dead heart, how is it possible to suddenly recover nodily functions, its more or less a resurrection!

From my personal experience, I have used drugs that have altered and distorted my consciousness to surprising levels. So I'm always wary of OBE and NDE, cos the mind is very powerful.

Enigma: It is the logical conclusion of your position in that our little exchange.

The root problem was accepting something ex nihilo, with or without agency. So both options you offered are illogical and therefore can not explain the Universe's origin.

If I send some gunmen to kill Bukola, did I command Bukola??

Enigma: ^^^ Therefore the universe does not exist --- or the universe is not "logical"!

How did you manage that?

@anony

1. So for me, I find Xavi's passes miraculous, cos his skill and talent in football is beyond mine.

2. That's logical, however you have to show that this world conforms exactly with God's nature and character.

3. That unfortunately didn't answer my Q.

Sorry Anony! Basis rather.

Happy New YEar too!

None is logical, and neither is more logical.

It is not a command to the female students.

The mistake you are making here Anony is: you are not capturing morality as empirical data, rather describing an ideal preference: Jesus.

Logicboy is insisting that the facilitator for morality is our biological makeup and very complex brain, which is common in every human on the planet.

While you think its Jesus, who was unknown and was central to most cultures at all, and yet had morality. So definitely and as an empirical fact, Jesus isn't the cause of morality.

@mranony

The logical impossible is sometimes a contradiction or an inconsistency but we both agree on this point. And consequentially agree miracles are not logically impossible. But what makes miracles special?

@enigma

Long time no see.

Two important questions: from what did God create everything?

AND why should we presume teleology?

jauntee02: THE HIJAB PALAVER!

http://www.shareefudeen..com/2013/01/the-hijab-palaver.html?m=1

The Quranic passages/recommendations are directed at men! "Tell your wives and daughters". It is indirect, hence not a command per se. It is therefore at the husband's or father's instance to allow women wear the hijab.

Or probably we are all bisexuals, and because of gender pick sides.

Societies accord rewards and duties along gender lines, homosexuals by picking up the contrary gender role traumatize the society. Some societies adjust and allocate special roles to such ppl.

OBE is mere popular culture. Same as alien abductions. Misunderstood biochemistry.

Our consciousness is different from our senses. If we lose our senses, an OBE wouldn't see or hear!!

Which does the Quran recommend/command hijab or modest dressing?

Logicboy03: Typical of apologist christians. They copy arguments that they think destroys the atheist position. You people dont understand Hume.


[size=14pt]Misconception

The is-ought distinction is sometimes misconstrued to mean that facts are totally disconnected from ethical statements, or that there is no relationship at all between is and ought. As can be seen, Hume does not argue this position, but states that a factual statement (or "is" needs to be combined with an ethical principle or assumption before an ethical statement (or "ought" can be derived[/size]



Who has been using facts to explain morality here? The person who says that we as humans develop certain instincts for survival which become a basic guide for morality or the person that uses a hypothesis (presupposition of God) to argue that morality comes from God?

In other words, morality is an empirical fact?!

^^

From what I understand about the hijab, Islam recommends it, but at the instance of the husband. That's my point. I didn't mean that I had some supernatural powers which read the writer's mind.

ositadima1: Is it hard to see that the physical world as we perceive it with her five senses is infact a subset of a wider and larger world? Is it not conceited to strongly believe that whatever cant be expleined away by our "elementry" scientific knowledge is false. The word spiritual realm, like someone pointed out, is just a nomenclature, no biggy.
Come-on, even euclid geometry, we use daily to make things happen, has limitation: Euclid's method consists in **assuming a small set of intuitively appealing axioms**, and deducing many other propositions (theorems) from these. At the lowest level of science assumtions are still made, yet it works at the macro level. I dont know, maybe I am making no sense.

I didn't say whatever Science doesn't approve is false, I'm saying the whole spirit world hypothesis is inconsistent. Whether the physical world is a small part of existence, we genuinely don't know through our senses, however Reason still stands supreme.

Foundational axioms of Euclid geometry still appeal to reason not mysticism.

^^^

Without any reference to some moral code? Nope.

1. I would want to stress that an idea is an abstract concept of its own. And probably it operates on the platform of our consciousness or the soul.

2. If miracles don't do the logically impossible, what's so special about them?? Why are they confirmations of faith?

vedaxcool: ^
That is the best I can give you, since you are only interested repeating your points over and over again, I find that nuseating, you could have simply read the article written by a muslim lady rather than depending on your feelings to experience the truth just open your eyes and see the light!

Yet she doesn't realise that she is doing a man's biddings. The use of the hijab is decided by her husband, he holds that discretion not her.

She generally has to dress modestly quite alright, but its her husband that decides how modest. And that is to me the same problematic mindset with the West.

@rossike

Multi dimensions describe the properties of space itself, which is physical on its own. To assume multidimensional space is actually spirit world is ridiculous.

My contention is with these so called NDE, is that they still perceive space which shouldn't be possible. Its inconsistent.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Wrong turn my friend. God is not bound by any rules towards man or anyone else. God has a character and that character is the basis for morality i.e. God's nature is good. Good is not something separate from God to which He must strive to attain. . . . . .good itself is based on God's nature.[/quote]However God is free-willed and omnipotent, and therefore has the capacity for evil. Except we label all that he does as good.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Oh I see, I define a natural entity as anything that can be comprehensively defined within the bounds of space, time and materiality.

I won't define based on causal relationships because I hold that there exists causal connections between the supernatural and the natural.

For me the natural and the supernatural correspond directly to the physical and the spiritual.[/quote]By this definition, ideas fit as supernatural.

I think you are confusing natural occurrence with agency.

There is a difference between how something acts naturally and how an agent can make it to act

For instance steel does not naturally float on water but man can and has made steel ships that do.

A dead man cannot naturally rise again but God can and has raised men from the dead.

This is not a contradiction to nature, it's just that the one who knows all things can easily manipulate nature. After all, He created it.

I am sure you if tomorrow some scientist found a way of raising people from the dead, you most probably won't see it as a contradiction of nature so why the double standard?

Ok, it seems you don't think miracles are logically impossible, but is the above natural or supernatural?

What then is the role of faith when we have reason.

Uyi Iredia: It does. We infer this because we know morality isn't a property of physical matter it is an aspect of intelligence.

.

If God is the moral giver, then he isn't necessarily bound by his moral Rules, hence free to commit/perpetuate the most appalling immoral atrocities. So God cannot be morally good because that would imply some adherence to his own rules/commands

^^

That's not a good way to respond. You didn't draw on my weakpoints and the lies in my posts.

You haven't shown me reason to discard my present beliefs pertaining to the hijab

The spirit world is nothing more than a bad imitation of the physical with its laws. No one can think of an entity existing without space, its unimaginable. A spirit world lacks space and probably forms too.

Billyonaire: You are kidding, and I mean it in the nicest way, no insult intended. Logic is child's play. Dont even equip yourself with logic and think you know something. Logic is subject to brain. You are armed with the wrong tool. Its like telling me if spoon isnt cool enough to use in scooping all the water from the ocean. If knowledge of other worlds is what you are interested in, then Logic wont take you anywhere, but if your intention is to remain stubbornly glued to logical reasoning then congratulations, you are perfectly okay.

This is where all your OBE and near death experience errors come from. You pulled of the foundation of consistent thought: logic. Without logic, we can't think. We wouldn't be able to draw a connection btw Cause A to Effect B, we wouldn't be able to draw good conclusions.

Given that you have removed foundational logic, your arguments can't go further and are dead at arrival.

Billyonaire: Kay17, you emphasized on this twice and it caught my attention. If we live in 4DWorld, then the parallel reality is the 5th, if I that is correct, do you think its possible to exist in this dimension but see things on the next dimension (say 5th dimension) while physically active (not via OBE ?)

The problem here is: the dimension you are talking is unknown and uncertain. We are actually talking about nothing and mysteries. What will the 5th dimension be about?? More lines? Diff character for space? We are not talking about anything.

vedaxcool: ^
Let's get it right, my point is clearly that the hijab and mores of Islam makes the suffering western women suffer as a result of sexuali.zation of women absent and this clear simply becoz this sexuali.zation occurs as result of a mind set of western culture etc. Now before Islam prescribe hijab for muslim women it prescribe hijab for men by telling men to lower their gaze, Islam does not and have never made women a commodity to sold or exploited!

The sexualizatio.n of a woman results as a consequence of property. The root cause is the equating a woman to property. The hijab further aggravates the root cause.

Its not a problem with science, its with knowledge.