₦airaland Forum

Enigma: EDITED: Initially a double-post but I might as well use the opportunity to make another point.

Even evangelical atheists themselves know that they are fools!

This is why they play the trick that "atheism is merely a lack of belief in God" which if of course they are right means they are in good company with dogs, cows and monkeys who also lack a belief in God.

In truth, atheism proper is a positive belief and statement that there is no God. The only problem is that there are really only two types of people who can legitimately make that statement: (a) an omniscient person or (b) a fool.

Since the evangelical atheists know that they are not omniscient and since also they don't want to be called the fools that they are, they resort to the chicanery that atheism is merely a lack of belief in Gods -----yes, as with dogs, cows, monkeys etc.

Atheism and evangelical atheism are the same or different??

Given that the definition of God (the Christian one especially) is incoherent and irrational, its fair to say he doesn't exist.

An atheist need not be omniscient, he only has to work within the definition and proofs provided by theist.

edicolove: Like I said before, logic is based on available information. That means logix can be false. That is why science books keep changing from year to year. So when you say someone should logically prove the existence of God, you contradict yourself. That is why science is totally faith based as is all the actions of man.

Take for example, Darwinism. That is the most incoherent, disjointed, fabricated and clumsy theory in science yet it is taught in schools. It has absolutely no valid or logical bases. It is completely flawed at its core. The very simple question to ask is what banged the big b.ang and what created the matter that caused the big b.ang to b.ang! At that point, Darwinsim becomes a big bundle of contradiction and speculation. There are two options: 1 is that the substance that banged came from nothing. That then leaves you with more confusion. 2 is that something or someone created the substance that banged. Again that throws more confusion into the mix and leads you back to the existence of a being before the b.ang. You see the confusion of science. Well these confusion exists because these scientists are working hard to try and disprove the existence of God. That is why the bible says the f00l has said in his heart there is no God. Because saying ther is know God doesn't give answers, it only breeds questions.

Science and logic are all based on faith. If you as a man choose to question everything you hear and are told, you will not even come out of your house let alone walk on the streets. You believe the news, you believe weather report. That you even believe the same science you talk about when you have never personally performed those experiments for yourself is amazing faith. You even fly air planes and don't fear it will drop off the sky just because someone assured you he has done the maths and it would not drop off. Your faith is too much bro!

In your mind logic and science are the same thing?!

Logic is wrong?? Ok I agree.

Big bang and Darwinism?? Just say Science must die for Jesus to live.

Its by faith planes fly?? Can you fly without any physical support by faith?! If you can't, do clarify why not.

edicolove: You are actually very right. Man's existence and life is totally based on faith. Even science is faith. You are rold that a virus exist. How do you know it is true? Have you seen a virus before? How are you sure someone is not trying to deceive you? Well you simply believe because you are a faith being. You even allowed someone to inject you with a fluid with the claim that it will forever immunize you against the same virus you were told exist but have never seen. What a great faith! You are told the world is round and you believe, yet you have never seen the world by yourself. In fact your life is based on it. You were told pluto is a planet. You believed too and even based your life (horoscope) on it. Your decisions were based on it. Oops! Now you are told they were wrong. You still believe! Ironically, you say those who believe in God are fools and are being deceived. But those who told you pluto was a planet deceived you and you didn't mind.

You see, its all a matter of choice. The problem with atheists is they are afraid of the unknown. They don't want to face it. Secondly, the thought of God makes them feel unrighteous and unworthy. But that is what religion made them to believe. That God is angry with them and wants to destroy them. Thirdly, they are also angry with God, maybe for pains they faced and couldn't explain or understand. But as the saying goes, "to know me is to love me". To know God is to love God! God is not the picture that Islam and "religious christianity" paints. God is love. God is grace. God is light. It is not in his character to kill or destroy. When you understand that, then you will understand the whole life and sacrifice of Jesus. And then, you will understand the whole purpose of man. The earth is God's training ground to raise men who will rule and administer for him. He is training kings. But everything is based on choice. Choice is the key to life!

Frm this convo, we can both agree faith is a blind acceptance of et cetera. Given that, having faith that there is no reality, no universe, no me or you make such thought true??

I as an atheist find it distasteful to worship men who call themselves gods, I don't worship gods, because they have no authority over me, except the State cos its useful.

God is a being external to me, as a result whoever asserts his existence, has to logically provide it.

It is ppl that don't know anything about science, that think its by Faith. What do common ppl understand abt science? Its the structure and philosophy behind it, how its findings are made and the practicality.

Faith is comfortable ignorance.

fellis: They might be foolish to you, but other people take them seriously so you should respect their feelings/be considerate instead of making fun of them.
Atheists should not even be launching groups to support this man. Why would they want to support his showing blatant disregard for things that are dear to theists hearts? Later you atheists wonder why people dislike you.

But its inequitable to jail and punish a man for his own cherished beliefs for the convenience of the majority. Another man's religious beliefs/faith should not govern his neighbour. Islamic beliefs shouldn't be forced on others.

fellis: No, why will I do that?
Besides that has nothing to do with the topic. I am sure there are laws in Indonesia that forbid people from doing things like what Alexander Aan did,but he went ahead and broke those laws.
If he knew he could not live without making fun of Muslims, then he should have moved to a country where such isn't forbidden to do it.

Do you support the anti religious laws of Communist States like Soviet Union and Nork Korea??

Would you support a law that prohibts mosques??

God can only exist in the mind, the existence of Allah and Jehovah is dependent on the collective perception of a group: a church or a fellowship or a country.

They also take offence at those that don't hold their beliefs because it puts their god at risk of extinction. As a result, blasphemy laws are indispensable.

They go to mosques and churches to assure themselves. They place their faith on others.

dadicvila: A fool says in his heart "there is on God"...so he is 100% right,they are all føòl$

you are right, there is God. BUT he is an helpless abstract.

edicolove: I can see you still haven't got it. Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. The Jews were forbidden to represent God in any form. Jesus is God in human form. 100% God and 100% man. That's the mistery and the beauty of it. Totally God, yet totally legit as a man. The whole essence is to bring man into the class of God. That is what Christianity is. God stoops down to man's level in order to bring man to his class. But everything is based on choice. That is why a Christian can heal the sick and do supernatural things. It is as real as you are typing right now.

A man called Jesus told someone, who told you that he is a God and you should worship him! And the you do so!!

That's not much different from worshipping Guru Maharaji! At least he says the same thing too!!

edicolove: Ok, let's take it step higher. According to the bible, Jesus is God. He is God incarnate in human flesh. That is why we worship Jesus. Not as a man but as a divine being, God, who came to earth as a man in other to redeem man. The bible teaches that he had to come as a man to have legal right to function as a man. That is why he had to be born by a woman. But he didn't require a man's sperm, because that would mean he will be born in sin like every other man. And if he was born in sin, he would not have been qualified to redeem man.

God became a man, and you worship the resultant form. It is still man worship.

Also, what authority does the bible rely on as the Word of God?

No

^^ ok.

edicolove: Let me engage you a bit.

There are 2 types of Christianity or you can call it 2 levels of Christianity. One is Christianity as a religion. The other is true Christianity.

Christianity as a religion for example is when you are born by a Christian parents or in a Christian community/society. Here, you are refered to as a Christian. But the problem here is that, according to the bible, that is not what what qualifies one as a Christian.

Let me digress a bit and remind you that the bible does not recognise Christianity. There is nothing like Christianity in the bible and believers in Jesus were never referred to as Christians by God or the apostles. There were addressed as Christians by the "unbelievers". What the bible recognises are people who have submitted their lives to Jesus Christ and the are referred to as believers or the body of Christ or the church (from the greek word, ecclesia which means the called out ones). So Christianity is a term coined out by the roman empire to describe these set of people who were preaching about Jesus Christ. And later when the constantine merged the church and state, he created the religion called Christianity. Yes, those who believe in Jesus Christ today now refer to themselves as Christians but that actually is not proper. But for the basis of this discus, we will use the word Christianity for now.

That is why I said there are 2 types of Christianity. According to the bible, what qualifies one as a true believer or what we might call a true christian is when a man totally accepts the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as redemption from sin and death and totally accepts and declares Jesus as his Lord and saviour. So one born by a christian parents is not recognised by the bible as a Christian. In fact, according to the bible, even if you attend church all your life and never truly accept Jesus as your Lord and savior, you are not a Christian.

So yes, in the religious sense, many people are classified as Christians but in the true sense according to the bible, many of those people are not Christians.

And just to add that Jesus Christ did exist and that is fully proven historically. Even the Jewish history admits that he did exist as much as they reject him and don't believe he is the expected messiah, they never denied he existed. One big confusion though is the way the Catholic church and the roman empire treid to define Christianity as a religion. Many of you take that as your idea of Christianity and that is a completely false place to stand!

Provided you serve a man called Jesus. Christianity is hardly different from man worshipping religions.

edicolove: Now you are slowly picking it. You will soon get there. Let me help you a bit. A god is simply something or someone you believe has total lordship and control over your life. Michael jackson for some people is God. They worship him. From history, some kings and rulers where deity or god. Like in the Egyptian, roman and persian empires. So a god is someone you submit total lordship of your life to. So yes, a man can be his own god. This concept isn't new really. It was first muted by Nimrod and was propagated by the greeks. the bible teaches it will be propagated in the last days.

God is definietly something. But you suggested atheists lack belief in something which in this sense is more general than one thing: God.

^^^ Being the omniscient God, he already knows your wishes and he has a divine plan, so why bother praying?!

edicolove: You obviuosly didn't understand my post. please read it again and carefully this time. I didn't say Atheism is lack of belief in something. I actually said there is nothing like that.

Your words:

Actually atheism is a deception. There is nothing like a non-believer. Everyone believes in something

Based on that quote, you went further clarify the above, by stating atheists do believe in themselves, therefore disqualifying themselves as atheists!!

Also that a belief in something is equal to a belief in God!!

edicolove: Actually atheism is a deception. There is nothing like a non-believer. Everyone believes in something. A man that says he doesn't believe in God is simply saying he is his own god. So in the real sense there is nothing like atheism. You see, these things are coined by the devil to deceive men. That is what was prophesied in the book of revelation. The number 666 is actually talking about a system coming where man will declare that he is his own god. That is what is being spread by hiphop artists around. Hiphop is founded on the principle that man doesn't need god since he is his own god. The biggest deception of the devil is the concept of neutrality. And it is very dangerous. Why? Because neutrality doesn't exist. The universe does not support the concept of neutrality. You must belong somewhere.

This is the most insightful, intellectually rich, lexical discovery on Nairaland.

Our MR has redefined Atheism as the lack of belief in something. But I'm confused here, if atheists don't have any beliefs, what is belief in one's self called.

Enlightened One pls enlighten us!!

I retract my earlier posts. Atheists, agnostics, conscientious objectors and maybe deists are exempted from making oaths or affirmation, there testimony is unsworn and might require corroboration.

Sad situation. . .

Thehomer, image just invoked an exemption clause of faith. Its useless trying to reason further in this . . . . .

olasesi: ...........OK.......because it wasnt used in the bible doesnt making it use in the quran WRONG.........
and remember the use of "WE" is an OPTION. he could as well use I.......so the royal "WE" wasnt the only pronoun used by God in the QURAN.......

example from the quran

"inform my servant that I am indeed the most forgiving and the most merciful and that my purnishment is a great one

The Koran makes use of "we" too? Was its use consistent or discretionary?

Deep Sight: Interesting take. But in the same way it can be said that our brain/ mind is everything - the world, the universe, et al. It will be interesting to see how anyone can prove that it is not.

That's wouldn't include that absurdity tho, however the link and distance btw us and reality is our perception. That is as important as reality. Worldviews, cultures, subcultures (religions) offer a variety of explanations of all phenomena, and still the explanations have as much weight reality will have on the awareness and mind of a person.

Within this thought process is where I believe God resides. God given a superficial definition: the Cure-All Explanation. So I would say God is the Answer of Everything locked by perception. This perception is not immune from errors, cultural biases, etc.

^^^

The God of the Bible didn't refer to himself as WE ARE WE ARE. Or after that the first chapter of Genesis and the Bible, didn't use "WE" again. At least if he is respecting some language rules, he should respect throughtout the book of Genesis.


Besides, in the first commandment, the other Gods are acknowledged.

truthislight: Key17
the bible is not an authority

Kay17 is. Ok, we will see how long this ur authority last. max 80, minus ur current age, far less than 80. Why then should i take ur statment to the bank?
Mortal that cant even add 1 cubic to his live span, or can u?
I did say one should not follow man, but u looked for my selfishness, how? I had none (i need no follower, never)

the bible is over 3500yr old and still the best seller. Though the best seller of all tym.

The bible is an old modern book.
The bible is far ahead of its tym.

Will the Gods bend to suite human? Or mortals should bend?

For a book that is not a scince text book, that was writted when there was no kwoledge of modern science to strike perfect note on science though focussing on God, perfectly describe natural laws, shape of earth, suspension of earth, descriptions of other galaxies, describe human nature perfectly, an uncanny prophetic details and fulfilment. But people just cant get it makes me wander.
Maybe they just want to denied the facts.
It seems more convenient,

there are sure misuderstind on d scriptures that most people have against God of which they need back ground information as to what really happen,

I didn't say the Bible not an authority, but not an authority for itself as the Word of God. The validating authority has to be external.

For example, I write a love poem and within it, I write that the love poem is the greatest ever. Does that make it so??

Dermie: They simply raise their filthy hands up in the air, to swear.

U regard them aS filth?

Barristerlaw says it all. For atheists and religionists who have certain objections to oaths, have the opportunity to affirm. One is asked if he wants to swear or affirm, and both opportunities have equal weights and sanctions.

truthislight: @key17
Should i really answer this?
Well the bible says so,
2timothy 3:16, 17.

So, where does my selfish desire comes in?
Or is it the anger in u hearing me express my views?
I thought there was what is call freedom of speech?
Have i not read severally where U freely aired ur views?
Ur freedom starts and stops where mine begins.
Why is my own view then a function of my own selfish interest?
I thought it was only religiouse bigot that insist all to be like them and get pis off when it does not suit them.
Anyway, what has been said has been said, if u dont like it complain to Jesoul.
It is call religiouse forum.
Peace.

No!! Bro!! I'm not insulting you o! I was merely looking at some of the motives.

The Bible can't be an authority for itself. Also the Bible as it is, did not exist at the time timothy was written.

Still no authority.

Uyi Iredia: Ignorance on all fronts. There are answers being proferred by a scientist by the name Jack Szostak. I want you to google him & read his papers (explaining his theories on the origin of the DNA code). I do not agree with them because of the papers of people like David Abel. Here's a sample of his paper. In answer to your second question I'd say yes; life does have an origin.

I also saying its inadequate, to compare the DNA to language and computer programmes. Since the DNA appears in Nature, its a paradox to dismiss seemingly natural complexities for human constructed complexities.

If life has an origin, isn't God life?

And what authority approves the bible as the word of God??

Is it your own selfish need?

Or desires??

Its fair to say, God is an abstract that exists in the mind of the adherent.

How is it possible for there to be love in separation??

pendusky: The best hair dresser is a guy,
The best fashion designer is a
guy
The best cook/chef is a guy
if all these womanish work is best
won by a man, i wonder what
gals are gud at?
*just thinking out loud oh*
Gud evening friends!

It means gender stereotypes don't work.

Good night!

@Uyi Iredia

Your argument is based on the similarity of human codes and the DNA, given human experience.

Why DNA is actually an intelligent design is still a mystery.

Does life have an origin?

I have now shown you incontrovertibly that not only Uyi (or I) "turn logic on its head" when we say evangelical atheism is a religion. The American Supreme Court thinks 'does' so too.

You still haven't shown why SC's definition is unusual and broader and more expansive than the general definition along with restrictions.

You then said the court's decision had no philosophical value. I have now 'discombobulated'* that one.

I will accept that IF you consider Roe vs Wade, an authority in medicine and history.

See, my own position is clear and was summarised earlier but since I'm having to repeat myself so much in the company on this particular thread:

Look in one of the older debates, Jesoul said something that I agree with: ordinarily we would not dignify atheism or even evangelical atheism with the status of religion. For me, however, the present intellectual, political and legal realities as well as the statements, actions and activities of evangelical atheists themselves (including the fundamentalists among them) mean I must accept the situation that evangelical atheism is indeed a religion --- no matter how unpalatable I and others may find that.

Given you ppl' layman idea of human rightsn, such is understandable.

Prior to that, you had never mention an alternate justification/ground for atheism.