₦airaland Forum

SNCOQ3: Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the effects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and not to others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering. (not my words but by thought exactly)

Visit this webpage if you're sincere for an answer:
http://carm.org/why-there-evil-and-suffering-world

Since human sin is an imperfection, why is there imperfection in the first place?

SNCOQ3: I do not mean to be disrespectful but lumping "sufferings, sins and devil" in this context is unintelligent. Show some intelligence by treating this words in their "cause and effect" order then you'll deserve an answer from me.

I was merely stating the common trait/nature among the three "evils". As said earlier, since they are imperfections, how did they come into being??

achmed1: There are forces existing among us beyond our comprehension.
We cant fully prove the existence of God but i tell you one thing i know for sure, Evil exists...Satan and his comrades exists.

And how did this forces which are beyond your comprehension, then fall into it?? If you are not sure of God's existence or identity and whether he is the devil playing and discombobulating your mind, then what are you worshipping??

You can't vouch and claim to know what's not in your understanding. If you are confused about your beliefs why mock atheists??

Besides its someone like you that can easily believe water can be drawn from an empty well (supernatural)

^^
But sufferings, sins and the devil are imperfections, right? How did imperfections come to being?

^^
The manner you talk about your god, makes me think he is a demon. Why condemn an entire civilization for the disobedience of a few?

If there is a perfect god, why is there an imperfect world?

D sage: Time wi come dat all u atheist realise d existence of God.Although,none of u provided an answers to d questns i earlier asked on dis thread but advise u to think of what brought about your rationality i.e why are we different from others animals?

What questions??

If there was a perfect creator, why is there an imperfect creation?

@mactunji

There could be a head of other gods, there could be a partnership, there could be a committee of gods "creating" this diverse world.

And why is the Quran true, questioning muslim?

I'm an atheist because the God concept is a badly defined one, one constructed not exist. Abrahamic religions don't make any sense. They all preach fantasy. And miracles?! C'mon! Miracles are impossible

Apostle Paul summed it up; that Christians are fools. Reason and logic are things religion is not happy with.

Higher powers are the sun, gravity, power of an atom, nature. God??! What's that??

As long as there are no talking donkeys or tortoise, there is no God.

Sweetnecta: @Kay17

Yes. Muhammad [as] is His Messenger, to mean he is the last link in the chain of messengers and prophets [as], all saying the same thing about Him being the One to worship. If you reject Muhammad [as] you have directly rejected any and all the messengers and prophets [as] of God. Then you have directly rejected God.

Ok. As obtained from the Quran, but the Quran is the testimony of Muhammed, its provisions are the words of Muhammed; stating God's Will: which is hearsay. Besides Muhammed claimed an angel of God visited him, he claimed the extraordinary like the stars created as missiles against spiritual beings, dividing the moon, the spider web story. These go against the course of nature, which is more likely: Muhammed lying or Nature changing course?

maclatunji: You know that there always at least 2 Presidents
and Commanders-in-Chief in every country. Identical twins always agree, 2 drivers drive the same car at the same time. Two mothers will give birth to the same child and you put your food in too mouths at the same time.

How dare I say there is only one God?

But the Halder Collider was developed by one man, nor a plane, or a multinational company, or a country. Complex projects regularly have numerous hands but with one mind.

maclatunji: ^Keep contemplating until you can contemplate no more.

Your case doesn't surprise me. So in your own warped world, the only conclusion that any individual who asks the question: does God exist? can come to is to say that He does not exist.

How brilliant, you must be the best thing that has ever happened to scientific research.

Your assumption that religious people don't question the existence of God is nothing but foolhardy. You cannot be a firm Muslim if you don't answer this fundamental question.

Go and tap your head against the wall and think of another thing.

Have you question the Quran? Why do you think its true?

@OP

Good question.

Ok, let's test that. Isn't there a declaration made by Faith that Allah is the only God and Muhammed is his Prophet?

maclatunji: Good question, we don't need to prove anything to atheists if they are too slow to realize that God exists. If there are people who are remotely deserving of being humoured with their atheism because of their 'immense achievements', it is not anybody here. So spare us the ignorant arrogance. That is where real power, wealth and achievement come-in. Who are you to demand evidence for the existence of God? Who you be? Who be you? Person way be say if we switch-off light for night in his room, e no go fit sleep dey come Nairaland they form "Advanced thinker" #Nonsense.

@bolded, where do you think they are? Their bodies are of no use to them, but what about their souls. Some dork will come and tell me there is no soul, abi? I will e-slap your mouth. The thought-process you are going through to read and reply me, is it tangible?

Oya answer my questions, abi fear dey catch una?

I'm not surprised at Mactunji's comments. He can't contemplate the metaphysical question of whether or not "God" (definition varies) exists. As a submissive, its sinful for such an idea to come across his mind. Allah/God and religion must be believed without resort to reason or evidence. "Just believe"

Unlike we atheists its a valid question. Either God exists or not is valid question and such must be asked before assuming or accepting the existence of God. For me Islam forms one of the millions of religions in the world, and I "assume" islam likewise has the baggage of the average religion. It is bound to have an unhealthy share of superstition, a control mechanism and sometimes a purpose /motivation to live.

To understand atheists, you have to understand the importance of that question. "Just believe" is definitely not an option for me.

And also quit fallacies from authority, every reasonable human will understand the pecularities of a true God and religion.

Islam is too steeped into formalism. They have made themselves slaves. To islam the only purpose of man is to be a slave. Besides what's the use of the worship if there wasn't a willing mind?

@LagosShia

While do you regard paganism as trash?? African paganism is truely naturalism. And unlike Islam, its not based entirely on faith and one man's testimony. You supposed to see for yourself, not Muhammed seeing for you.

As long as that Heaven has gravity and light, I don't believe it. (They are physical not spiritual)

My only problem with Abrahamic religions is its unquestioning nature. They don't have a deep discourses. They are after blind obedience, follow all these rules, don't ask any question. Just swallow it.

ekwah: Believe me evolution is crap.. Darwin himself said
" If it could be proved that any complex organs existed which could not possible had been formed from numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory will absolutely breakdown" You can not dispute the existence of God if you search truthfully. Atheism is just stark blindness to truth. God exists and His awesomeness is mirrored in every structure across the universe.

If you have time to spare to learn some truths, see this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYSmV2FlHDw&list=FLvO4kTgJ4y_1oxZlPhw29fg&feature=mh_lolz

The problem here is: since God too is life and is the ultimate creator, intelligence and life are inevitably struck out as the causes of the origin of life. Life must definitely arise from non-life.

Besides Aquinas and Ary believe God is a mystery and they don't have an idea of what they are talking about.

maninmood: I just pray that you do not have a problem or the other. I have once been in your shoe but had some problems which only God solved. Where do you think you are while you are sound asleep and dreaming? Do you believe in sub-conscious mind? You formed out of nothing I guess? Why is human race not in Mars/ Jupiter/Pluto? Why on earth? Why did man just invent an airplane just about a century ago, why not like 500BC? Don't you think , by this virtue, human brain/thinking is limited? Your car you are driving? How did it get into existence? Out of Nothing? To take a single step, it requires 200muscles? Who planned that perfectly? Since Humans cannot cure Cancer, AIDS/HIV, and other diseases which they termed 'incurable'; do we say they are not real? Just cuz humans are not yet with the core knowledge about existence, why do they come with an assumption about gravity,et al? What is behind gravity? Gravitational force isn't in the space, like moon? What is holding moon from falling? Who planned all other planets strategically? Your becoming a man, your breathing, everything? Did they all come out of nothing? Who gave you the knowledge to think there is no God? What is behind that knowledge? Why did only mankind have consciousness? Why not other creatures? Do you believe in spirit? Have you seen a ghost before? As a toddler , while you were young, who taught you how to walk? talk? and understand your mother-tongue? How do you know the difference between truth and lies? Please think.

Finally, please stop challenging God? If you have a spiritual problems of some sort that no doctor or psychologist can cure, but prayer, then you will understand.

Can you explain life itself?

Yes I agree with you as long as there is no PERFECT WORLD, there is no perfect CREATOR.

SoftVersion: The Big Slam, I think is somehow biblical. God created something out of nothing, Let there be light and there‘s light. Do you know how that light is formed? A thousand years is like a day to God.

Creating something out of nothing is a logical impossibility and a contradiction. If God can do that, then he is a LOGICAL impossibility.

bankers: It is only a fool that says in his heart that there is no God, Hell is expanding Everyday for all this people, get prepared for everlasting turture, you will ask jesus to have mercy on you but by then it will be too late, the devil will pour liquid fire on you if you dont repent, the bible says the these people shall have thier part in the LAKE OF FIRE where the fire does not quench nor the worms die, and the smoke of thier torment shall ascend for ever and ever be warned!!!

Since you are not and can't make sense of your magical tales, you resort to intimidation and threats! SAD!!

jmoore: Time to chill.........

The biggest problem with 'evidential' type arguments is that they leave man as the judge over God, rather than God as the judge over man. You see, even if one is convinced by an evidential type argument, the ultimate authority of that person could very easily remain their own ability to reason, and not God

Here is discussion with a former atheist now a christian who came back from hell after an outer body experience.

Howard storm:We are not going to hold it against you that you are ignorant,you don't know what you don't know. If you do not believe in God, that doesn't mean you have no God. You have a God, your God is you. You think your are God and you got the puniest most worthless God there is, yourself and it is about time you straighten out.There is a higher power, go to the source. If you go to the source, if you say Jesus, I need you, I never believed in you and I do not know if you are real but Jesus I need to know if you are real. will you come into my life?If you do that and you meant it from your heart and if you sit down there and wait and don't get all frustrated, getting impatient stuff like that but just say Jesus please come into my life,I have been a rotten person and I do not know why you touched a piece of filth like me but Jesus come into my life, which is what I did, he will come...

Tv host: why did you not do that before your experience?

Howard storm:I didn't know........ , you know what, all these philosophical speculations that you are doing all the time between existentialism and other stuffs..why don't you ask him if he is real?

Tv host:is that all it could have taken?

Howard storm:yes, because I really believe that he will do something, it doesn't necessarily gonna be struck by lightning...it may just be as John Wesley said a strange warming of the heart when you just know that you know that you know that you know.



For those still in doubt after all these, the conclusion awaits when we meet death.

The sad part is you claimed your god could logically be proven, but you are assuming his existence already without proving his necessity in the first place. And you find Reason to be a Judge of man only?? How are we atheists supposed to find your god? With Faith? By intellectual laziness?? "Just Believe"??

I would have to sacrifice my mind and brain to have faith.

[quote author=nl.official]I own a car, I make use of it, but I don't know who designed it and then I deny the existence of the designer. Of course, that's not true.

One sure thing is that, at the end of your life, you'll know there is something responsible for this world.[/quote]To be sincere I'm sick and tired of these ancient primitive thinking!! We are discussing the beginning of everything, if there nothing before everything, why is there something now? Then MAGIC, God self causes and creates everything?? What caused all complexities including this God idea??

aryzgreat: Because we cannot know what God is, but only what He is not, we cannot consider how He is but only how He is not.
Thomas Aquinas

All u atheist, go and read about thomas aquinas

Hmmmm. . . Aquinas had clarified the entire position of Christianity. They have no idea whatsoever of what they are worshipping. Aquinas like his modern counterparts fell in love and worships a hopeless Abstract which lacks a substance. How is it possible to prove an undefined God in first place? "God" is a bad concept that says and identifies nothing. Just another mystery wrapped in a human clothes. Reason can't support absurdities like God, just Faith. That's where the relevance of Faith comes in.

@Islamrules

Its unfortunate the Quran has feed you with sad superstition, but note they are not real!

Nobody did split the moon, neither were stars "created" as missiles against mythical creatures.

Juju and co are superstition which are common in almost all African cultures, its their colourful view of the world. Nobody "chests" bullets, or moves mountains or rivers. They are not be taken seriously.

You need to go out and understand the world, understand culture. Read on Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism,Shinto etc and understand how they explain phenonema. Everything is as black and white Islam paints things. Because ppl don't agree with Islam doesn't mean they are Satanic worshippers or hate Allah.

Try to sincerely understand atheists.

@jmoore

I don't know Jehovah?? That's funny. You'd have to define Jehovah, you'd have to draw out a line of his limitation so we can best understand him. Also provide the necessity for natural principles which the universe works by? Remember in a world of nothing, no rules to conform to.

@Sweetnecta @joe4christ

Its a sad argument that collapses on itself to assert that complexity is best explained by another complexity. We R looking for the roots/beginning of a complexity (Universe), you introduce a greater one to explain the lesser one. I'm compelled to ask for that's roots. A designer which is life, with an intelligent creative mind, combined with energy to activate its intents came before the Universe?!

Besides that designer argument suggests nothing existed prior to the emergence of the Universe, which begs the question: Can something come out of nothing?

jmoore: we live in a universe of cause and effect,Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created but in fact he created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.

The issue is that your version of Grand Creator is involved as a Cause to which this effect could be traced to, in order words he is part of the system. Another issue to note is the hat do you call the gap right before he created the universe and when he created the universe? Time?

Besides time is a result of motion, so it seems inevitable. And natural laws are immutable, they can't be created or modified, e.g the properties of a right angled triangle.

jmoore: Good is a value from God passed down to us because we are created in God’s image but it is our freewill that sometimes makes us to deviate from it.

No its a value of self preservation. All societies including non Christian ones appreciate it. Imago Dei is an abstract that works after the justification and truth of Christianity is made or else, you are begging the queation.

As to meaning to my life, I define mine. I feel the human is equated to the value of merchandise if his worthy is determined by culture (women), or Gods.

Most of us are out of touch with the African metaphysical, foreign religions like islam have bastardized and demonized it and our identity along with. We have misconceptions that all that's left of it is JAZZ, which is not true. Africans had once had a colourful unique view of the world.

Islam unfortunately is known around the world as a religion built on violence, intolerance and petty differences.

Ok. . . Since atheism is the barest statement of disagreeing to the foundations of religious claims, it does say much other than no gods. Therefore, Atheism is solely a metaphysical conclusion, and has no ethical bearing.

Let's talk about philosophies that build on that metaphysical statement, for example humanism, secularism, existentialism, science. All that that fill atheists. I mentioned Science since it has a foundational assumption that a Cause is only natural.

@OP now we have some tangible to talk about.

Sweetnecta: And when we dismantled the experiments of ink, kay17 termed it as allegory. Whatever it is, in the experiments, there is a single Controller, causing everything to happen.

Your "BIG QUESTION" is easy for your Creator to answer. Look around; the answer is already there.

A polytheist concept is not less valid than the One God concept. If you feel it is then produce that idea with compelling logic. As of now you haven't, there could be a team of scientists in a Lab if we are interested.

I find the idea of labelling the Universe creation and an abstract Creator without providing the reason for such labels and jumping to magical conclusion.

LagosShia: the rantings of a confused soul disguising yoruba traditional religion's superstitutions and ignorance for tolerance.ive really never read the words of a man more rude than this soyinka hallucinator.comparing yoruba superstitutions and canibalism to islam.

may be he needs a hair cut for him to think stright!

I don't think Yorubas were a cannibalistic society.

Islam also, has its bag of superstitions: the moon splitting, the purpose of stars. . .

If there is no God, “the big questions” remain unanswered, so how do we answer the following questions: Why is there something rather than nothing? This question was asked by Aristotle and Leibniz alike – albeit with differing answers. But it is an historic concern. Why is there conscious, intelligent life on this planet, and is there any meaning to this life? If there is meaning, what kind of meaning and how is it found? Does human history lead anywhere, or is it all in vain since death is merely the end? How do you come to understand good and evil, right and wrong without a transcendent signifier? If these concepts are merely social constructions, or human opinions, whose opinion does one trust in determining what is good or bad, right or wrong? If you are content within atheism, what circumstances would serve to make you open to other answe

Why there is something rather than nothing is settled by the fact that we are here as a result nothing couldn't have existed prior to nothing. In essence existence is eternal, everything now had existed in the past as potential at most.

I do think Good has an inherent value and stands independently from God or man’s whims. Its an objectively discernible necessary factor in the continuance of humanity. Its the binding blocks of social life just as laws are. Its false and dangerous to conclude that God or any man can decide whatever he wishes is good. For example the Islamic suicide bombers.

Is there a purpose to life: NO. There is no obvious ascertainable one by just looking around. However, most religions reduce human purpose solely to worship and as dispensable unimportant tools, upon dissatisfaction. There is still no individual and unique purpose. A sentient being will reject such, will rebel because there is still no purpose for itself to exist. One will fashion out a meaning and everchanging purpose and define its meaning to life.

@Sweetnecta

The ink scenario was just an analogy, which you were expected to pick out the substance. Regulation, creativity, physical effort and all other characteristics of the "Maker" could be broken down to simpler and highly specialized Gods. The diversity in Nature and the Universe could suggest the plural mind of the "Maker". I'm not saying polytheism is the correct way, but its as good as an explanation as Monotheism. Even Allah works with a motley of angels, jinns and others; as long as they have no Cause and are eternal.

Most material entities have no minds to appreciate free will, if freewill is possible in the first place. They work within their powers (natural)

Whether everything has a Cause is another BIG question.

To be sincere I don't care. All the members in his congregation have the right to do whatever with their money including "donations" to the church. However, its evident the Pastor Oyedepo is living a luxurious life which is fuelled by a handsome income. And he is expected to a pay a fair share of it as taxes to the State.

On that basis the man is a thief and is cheating society; a hypocrit.